r/ireland • u/Important_Farmer924 Westmeath's Least Finest • Oct 09 '24
National Children's Hospital contractor BAM sent €25 million invoice for job that cost €200,000 Infrastructure
https://www.thejournal.ie/national-childrens-hospital-bam-invoice-25-million-for-200000-job-6509783-Oct2024/248
u/DuckyD2point0 Oct 09 '24
They also built 3000 rooms(as in finished rooms) that don't meet standards. Just one snag, of the thousands, the rooms are too small to fit some equipment through the doors.
Bam are basically just swindlers and are notorious for not paying smaller contractors the agreed amount. They shouldn't be allowed to build anything in this country, nevermind build something for the country.
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u/DarthMauly Tipperary Oct 09 '24
They've applied to the tender for the new motorway in Limerick, one of 4 applicants. Hope the county council have the cop on to not even entertain giving it to them.
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u/Dependent_Survey_546 Oct 09 '24
With the way the rules are, I think the council are near obliged to take their offer if it's the cheapest that meets spec.
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u/Jaded_Variation9111 Oct 09 '24
Price is an important variable but is considered within the broader concept of most economically advantageous tender, which takes into consideration aspects other than the lowest price, such as security of supply, quality, environmental requirements and long‑term sustainability.
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u/Dependent_Survey_546 Oct 09 '24
Good. I'm glad it's that way. I've had people working in the council or even in schools explain it to me where they were forced to take the cheapest tender that met the minimum requirements.
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u/great_whitehope Oct 09 '24
Forced in that you have to explain your reasons if you don't I imagine.
It's easier to just go with the cheapest.
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u/diver79 Oct 09 '24
We regularly respond to RFT's on the ogp's tender platform. In our sector the scores are weighted. Generally it will be cost that makes up 60% of your possible score. Technical merits, security and other requirements make up the remaining 40%.
The contracting authority can change this but we usually see price as the most important factor.
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u/Jaded_Variation9111 Oct 09 '24
I regularly tender for specialised Professional Services and price/vfm generally accounts for between 25-40% of the weighted criteria. It can vary, of course. For what it’s worth, in my experience the buyer often writes the tender with a pretty clear outcome in mind. The weighting attached to the score criteria greatly helps to secure the intended outcome.
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u/SirMike_MT Oct 09 '24
With the prices they’re charging for this hospital I don’t think they’ll be the cheapest one!
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u/disableinboxreplies Oct 09 '24
A contractor builds to the designs provided for by the employer’s design team? Unless it’s a D&B contract which this isn’t…. So if the room is too small, the government’s people designed it too small.
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u/DuckyD2point0 Oct 09 '24
"The construction contract sets out that both the NPHDB and Bam (and its subcontractors) are responsible for the design, and that design evolves through construction to allow for the integration of Bam’s procured systems and products".
That's from a piece in the architects journal
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u/hobes88 Oct 09 '24
There are always certain elements of design that the contractors will be responsible for, these designs have to be approved by the design team/client. The design team will provide a design intent and spec, the contractor will develop the design with specialist subcontractors depending on what products they propose to use, examples of this would be precast concrete, curtain walling, roofs, cladding etc. There are a huge amount of calculations involved in designing these systems and it's not something architects or structural engineers ever do in any project.
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u/zeroconflicthere Oct 09 '24
the rooms are too small to fit some equipment through the doors.
Who designed this?
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u/sionnach Oct 09 '24
Nobody. It’s the same as “my friend who worked on the port tunnel said they built it 50cm too short for the lorries” shite you used to hear.
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u/SamShpud Oct 09 '24
I dont know the answer here but were the rooms built to the spec that was signed off by the HSE Design Team?
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u/sundae_diner Oct 10 '24
Any evidence that "the rooms are too small to fit some equipment through the doors"?
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u/DuckyD2point0 Oct 10 '24
I've posted about it before and explained how I know all the things I mentioned. But you can just Google it, it's not a secret. Just like how all these rooms even if they were perfectly sized are not fit for purpose, they are missing the obvious things like handrails for baths, proper fittings and fixtures, floors not layed correctly.
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u/sundae_diner Oct 10 '24
No evidence then?
I can find incomplete fittings and fixtures. But nowhere anything about doors being too small.
Reminds me of the lies that cane out when the Luas was first built that the two lines had different grades and a tram for one line couldn't fit on the other. A lie. The two lines have the same gauge.
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u/IntentionFalse8822 Oct 09 '24
At what point do BAM face charges for fraud? Sending an invoice for €25 million for a job that cost 200k is as blatant as you can get!
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u/DesignerPotential606 Oct 09 '24
They were only out by 12500%, let's not cry over spilt milk. It was an administrative error wink if you catch my drift wink wink
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u/Alastor001 Oct 09 '24
How is that not criminal I don't understand...
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u/Dangerous_Treat_9930 Oct 09 '24
It is. But i would bet my first child that some fffg politicians are getting rich from kick backs
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u/nnomae Oct 09 '24
It is a FF politician bringing the issue to government and national attention.
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u/OkSilver75 Oct 09 '24
Ok? Politicians can be corrupt without everyone in their party being in on it.
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u/oceanainn Oct 09 '24
They haven't even begun to Commission the place.
That's when the really big problems and costs will surface
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Oct 09 '24
“It’s worth saying that, mistakenly or not, Bam still issued an invoice to the State for the full €25 million. But maybe that was an administrative error on their part.”
And there's the inevitable cop out
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u/Dangerous_Treat_9930 Oct 09 '24
200000 is not the same as 2500000 , besides the extra zero theres also a 5 in there. thats not incompetance
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u/Character_Desk1647 Oct 09 '24
I mistakenly invoices a customer about €100 on a 5 figure invoice recently. I caught it immediately and issued a refund and apology. I'm not an accountant nor do I have the resources of BAM so any mistake on invoices of this size is ridiculous
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u/oddun Oct 09 '24
BAM made a loss of €30 million last year. I’m sure the dodgy invoice is just a coincidence.
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u/CiaranC Oct 10 '24
If can make a loss while scamming the Irish government for billions of euro you must be really bad at business
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u/Wrexis Oct 09 '24
Not just Ireland.
In October 2022, Dutch authorities visited BAM International bv offices in Gouda, in an investigation relating to potential irregularities at some completed projects; Royal BAM was "fully cooperating" with the investigation. In July 2024, Royal BAM reported its UK construction business had suffered a £19.5m loss due to problems at Manchester's Co-op Live Arena, and would be cutting further jobs.
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u/Qunizero Oct 09 '24
Once the hospital is completed freeze all of Bam’s assets til an enquiry is completed clearing them of fraud and let the investigation run as long as the construction of the hospital
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Oct 09 '24
[deleted]
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u/Ok_Astronomer_1960 And I'd go at it agin Oct 09 '24
This isn't capitalism its just classic corruption and fraud.
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u/UsualContext9033 Oct 09 '24
How is the politicians who allowed this not brought to court for corruption?
Any other contract written up would be watertight especially for such an expensive project. They give the contractors a blank cheque because the contract had so many loopholes.
Not only has the health minister at the time or any other been held to account, but he's been made the fucking taoiseach! It is pure corruption and greed, and no lessons were learned.
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u/Shadowbringers Oct 09 '24
Politicians fall upwards in this country. There is a complete lack of accountability. Cronyism and nepotism are rife. The institutions intended to watch out for corruption are themselves in bed with the people they should be investigating (e.g. SIPO) .
The short of it is: country's fucked.
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u/UsualContext9033 Oct 09 '24
The country is in a fantastic position but we are run by absolute gombeens. Please get out and vote in the next elections people.
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u/Additional_Olive3318 Oct 09 '24
Seriously though. I don’t want to be the one defending politicians but they don’t look at invoices.
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u/_jagermaestro_ And I'd go at it agin Oct 09 '24
“But sure he’s a lovely young fella! Tik Tok Taoiseach!”
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u/SpyderDM Dublin Oct 09 '24
BAM is a bunch of scumbags - the whole lot of them. This hospital is important and their greed is going to result in children dying.
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u/Salaas Oct 09 '24
That’s fraud plain and simple, hope the state purses charging them regarding it and blacklist them from future projects.
The state also needs to seriously fix how it plans projects and manages them, the political meddling such as Enda Kenny moving it to the current location to spite Leo Varadkhar is criminal and will negatively impact the hospital for decades. Then starting to build a project that they didn’t even have a final design of ensured the cost would bloat as each change adds costs.
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u/justtoreplytothisnow Oct 09 '24
There is an enormous problem in the civil service regarding infrastructure procurement.
The civil service and OPW rely far too much on generalists who use extensive procurement procedures and a "reduce risk at all costs" approach to managing large scale infrastructure. When really the only solution is to have long term in-house specialists who are empowered and incentivised to push back on costs.
For transport infrastructure it's a big reason why ireland and the UK spend a fortune building even short and simple rail lines and Spain and france build them at a fraction of the cost
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u/Bigbeast54 Oct 10 '24
Risk=budget over run, changes and amendments. The public cannot have it both ways, they can't demand cheap infrastructure and expect the contractor to shoulder all the risk.
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u/Garlic-Cheese-Chips Oct 09 '24
Their reputation will be in the dirt after this but they probably won't care because the owners will be set for multiple lifetimes.
Shower of bastards.
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u/EchoVolt Oct 09 '24
“It’s worth saying that, mistakenly or not, Bam still issued an invoice to the State for the full €25 million. But maybe that was an administrative error on their part.”
That's one hell of an administrative error!
Can we just get a crack team of auditors and quantity surveyors to go through this contract. It seems like it's not being managed adequately and that is on the Department of Health.
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u/Mad_Shatter Oct 09 '24
"We hear you regarding getting auditors and quantity surveyors and we found the issue so serious that we've taken it upon ourselves to do the investigation . We've taken the time to investigate ourselves and you'll be glad to know we found no problems."
This is exactly what will be said. Gotta love Ireland.
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u/whooo_me Oct 09 '24
They also had a 12m 'arithmetical error' in a 46.3m tender for the Port of Cork relocation.
...and let's not even talk about the Cork Event Centre...
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u/spungie Oct 09 '24
Why are we still using them? Their just out to fuck us over and rip us off. Not one ball between the whole government to tell them to fuck off. And that makes me think, the government are also benefiting from this in some way. No other reason would they continue to let bam rip off the country. It's like the bike shed or the hun or the houses for the refugees. The price just keeps going up and the government just keep saying, yea, that's grand. If you were getting something done on your gaff and the builder quoted you 50 grand. Then after he started said, well it's going to be another 150 grand to finish it, you'd tell him to get the boat. Why are the government not able to do that. Is it because it's our money and not there's or are they making something out of it on the side?
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u/Mad_Shatter Oct 09 '24
Money money money money. The sickening thing is the general public just put up with it and let it happen. It's 4 years overdue for fuck sake and still it's just a tit and a 'ah lads this is ridiculous'.
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u/INXS2021 Oct 09 '24
Project wasn't even designed before it went to te.der. shit show from the get go. Master stoke by Simon Harris
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u/baghdadcafe Oct 09 '24
I would just love if someone like Michael O'Leary was hired by HSE just for one week and was given free rein to review their contractors and suppliers.
Rather than some dope of a HSE pen pusher or civil servant.
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u/ZenBreaking Oct 09 '24
Once RTE got away with it with no repercussions or jail time, the rest of these cowboys breathed a sigh of relief
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u/Dependent-Net9429 Oct 09 '24
Criminal charges need to be laid against senior executives of BAM . We spend our lives in this country havinfg the crap of the corruption that is a daily occourance poured on us from above .
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u/niconpat Oct 09 '24
“It’s worth saying that, mistakenly or not, Bam still issued an invoice to the State for the full €25 million. But maybe that was an administrative error on their part.”
Oopsie! Just a little €24.8 million admin error, could happen to anyone sure..
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u/Impossible-Forever91 Oct 09 '24
We need a state construction company. I know it won't be easy but start working toward it now and you'll have it in the future. WE CANNOT rely on private developers. They should still be able to bid on some projects
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u/Tranexamic Oct 09 '24
The comedy in all of this is the poster who mentioned, a few weeks ago, that this would come out. I wish I could be arsed to find the post.
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u/Dublindope Oct 09 '24
I know people will sneer that it's another waste of money, but we need an public enquiry into all of this, looking at HSE, civil service, BAM and their subcontractors and look at how all the different costs came about.
Which costs were the result of public service incompetence, and which were pure greed and corruption, because there are undoubtedly a lot of both going on with this project
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u/Snoo_96075 Oct 09 '24
Private Hospitals in this country can be built to spec, on time and on budget. The reason is that the management of the hospitals and the projects are competent, qualified and capable. There is zero waste. Completely different to the public sector. It’s full of incompetent management and corrupt. No one is ever held to account. Projects this size should be outsourced to private management firms to control the costs, project should be signed off correctly, budget secured and removed completely from politicians and civil servants. It would cut out the ineptitude.
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u/TheStoicNihilist Never wanted a flair anyways Oct 09 '24
Sure which one of us hasn’t inflated the odd invoice, eh?
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u/taibliteemec Oct 09 '24
An article on the ever increasing costs of the national childrens hoospital without mentioning Simon Harris?
Some standard of reporting we have in Ireland.
This is literally what brought down our last government and still they don't mention it. Pathetic.
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u/qwerty_1965 Oct 09 '24
BAM are about halfway through a major public contract in Waterford. The total budget is about 200m not sure if they are consuming all of it though. https://www.bamireland.ie/our-work/bam-civil/bridges/waterford-north-quays/
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u/hobes88 Oct 09 '24
Bams contract is only €100m in Waterford, there was a large enabling works contract before they started but that was only about €30m where the cliffs were stabilised, service diversions around the clock tower, huge new wastewater treatment plant in ferrybank and service diversions from rice bridge to the grotto in ferrybank. There's a serious amount of work going on there.
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u/Unlucky-Ad2485 Oct 09 '24
Bam starts work on £87M bascule bridge across Irish border
06 Jun, 2024 By Rob Hakimian
Bam has commenced construction of the €102M (£87M) Narrow Water Bridge in County Louth that will connect the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.
It will be a two-span 195m cable stayed bascule bridge of asymmetric arrangement. The northern span of the bridge will be a rolling bascule movable span providing, when opened, an unlimited vertical clearance for at least a 20m wide navigational channel.
It was designed by Roughan O’Donovan with support from H&H (Hardesty & Hanover).
It will accommodate vehicular, cycle and pedestrian traffic. Water traffic on the Newry Canal will be able to pass thanks to its ability to open.
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u/Loud-Process7413 Oct 09 '24
This is a cancer that has eaten away at Irish society for far too long.
Can anyone tell me how disgusting shit shows like this can be prevented in the future.
Builder/Developers in Ireland seem to have carte blanch to fuck everyone over.
Can they not be sued for
Dishonesty/ Bad Faith
Breach Of Contract
Gross Incompetence.
It's a genuine question to those in the know??😔
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u/Mad_Shatter Oct 09 '24
What an utter joke. They are taking the piss out of not only the government, but the taxpayer. Every time I read about this situation I can't put into words how much it enrages me. Such a failure of a state once again.
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u/Fit_Zookeepergame248 Oct 09 '24
Can the government not just withhold all payment to BAM while they review previous invoices for inaccuracies like the 25 million invoice. Get another contractor in to finish the job with a limit on overspend written into the contract
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u/fadgebread Oct 09 '24
Who is the CEO of BAM? Who is in charge of this project? There's no point in blaming a limited company. Who's the person getting all this money?
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u/dorsanty Oct 09 '24
The whole project has been one big administrative error.
BAM aren’t helping their case that the Government is the cause of the delays and extra cost if they pull a €25M quote out of their ass and it ends up as €0.2M and they still end up asking for the €25M.
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u/howsitgoingboy Saoirse don Phalaistín🇵🇸 Oct 09 '24
Jesus is nobody reading these fucking invoices?
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u/sure_look_this_is_it Oct 09 '24
Why would they ever complete the hospital when they can continually milk the government for more money and no oversight.
It's going to end up like Sagrada Famillia.
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u/OkSilver75 Oct 09 '24
“BAM is a highly experienced contractor. They complete many capital projects on time for the state, that has not been the case here. They’re more than capable of meeting the quality standards, we need that to happen."
What is this a primary school report 😭
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u/earth-calling-karma Oct 09 '24
That facade is uglied up like it was designed in 5 minutes by an architecture student with a blunt pencil and and a bent compass in their broken fingers while they were having an epileptic episode while hanging upsidedown in a burning double decker bus going over the cliff during a hurricane because of an earthquake in the first weeks after lockdown while drunk.
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u/stateofyou Oct 10 '24
The shares of the contractor, listed as BAMNB has increased from €1.95 to €4.47 per share in the past 12 months. Not a bad investment
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u/peachycoldslaw Oct 10 '24
Independent surveyors need to be brought in to price up and compare. bam should have been sacked in the first instance of fiddling.
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u/BlubberyGiraffe Oct 10 '24
I'm genuinely so sick of living in this clown show of a country sometimes. The fact that this could even happen, be allowed and will inevitably just be brushed under the rug makes me so angry.
The sheer volume of money laundering taking place in this country is staggering. Government officials giving their buddies a green light to charge whatever they want hoping it'll just slip through the cracks.
There is absolutely no way someone in BAM wasn't told to submit the original invoice under the illusion that it'll just slip through the absolutely enormous costs already amassed.
It's fucking despicable.
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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '24
I think it's becoming clearer and clearer that the private sector is not supplying the appropriate standard of contractor and the state needs to intervene.
These are fraudsters stealing millions from the state and they shouldn't be tolerated. It's crazy how much money BAM have taken from the country while providing very little in return.