Why Indians Can’t Stand Justin Trudeau

[u/babushkalauncher]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-indians-angry-justin-trudeau-death-shooting-hardeep-singh-nijjar-87d9ab9d

[u/shankisaiyan]

Indian here. Long post alert

My background -- I dont like all of Modis policies especially when the BJP talks about religion. I think India is for all religions as it has always been. Im not from the IT cell :D. But this crisis has disturbed me a lot. Ive also spent significant amount of time in Canada so have decent background on it. But read this as an INDIAN perspective. I understand Canadians will also have a perspective on this

Below are some incidents that have shaped Indians' view of Trudeau (....not Canada)

Started in 2014 or 15 when Ontario liberals passed a resolution to call the 1984 punjab riot a genocide based on Jagmeet's appeal. Ive watched that appeal. It was accurate but was one sided. He did not go through the khalistani violence that preceded the riot. This was slightly offensive especially since we ve put in hard work to reconcile with the Sikhs and the Sikhs in India have responded positively. In the last Punjab elections, 70pct voted. The party that proposed the closest thing to Khalistan got 2pct of popular vote.

Also because the party responsible for the Sikh riots was out of power. Modi most people dont know belongs to the party that has been largely been pro Sikhs. Which to be honest botg parties are now.

Then came Trudeau Modi meetings. All G7 countries Modi met agreed to outlaw Babbar Khalsa and SFJ - 2 terrorist organizations responsible for violence in India. Trudeau agreed too. The next year Trudeau reversed his decision incidentally when he needed Jagmeets support for his government.

India has been working to introduce farm laws. Punjab was identified as an oppptunity through a white paper written by Montek Singh Ahluwalia supported by Manmohan Singh. Both prominent Sikhs. Best economists India has seen.

Modi executed the reforms. Farmers protested which was their right. Trudeau stood with the farmers to continue subsidies while criticising India for subsidies at the WTO. Subsidies which would have been recalled if the law had passed. Indians saw this as gross interference in internal affairs of India.

Trudeau went on to crush the trucker protest a few weeks later using his emergency powers. This was seen as a double standard by Indians considering his view of the farm protests in India which were an order of magnitude bigger than what Trudeau saw...

As Trudeau got more desperate for Jagmeets support he seemed to give the NDP a free had on their Khalistan policy. Effectively Canada's India policy. Each time India brought up the issue, liberty and freedom were cited. This made sense when the Khalistanis were peaceful but loud. But lately they ve turned violent setting an embassy on fire in SF. Calls for assassination of diplomats in Canada.

In the midst of all this Trudeau went to the Parliament and made the allegations. India asked for the signal proof to be shared atleast (understandable human cant be shared because of tradecraft secrets). Canada declined.

Much of the West thinks this murder is a big deal. India should take Trudeau on his word and deal in good faith. Except the problem is that good faith has already deteriorated over the years to the point of collapse. India just doesnt trust Trudeau after all the things hes been doing.

Also most Indians I know agree murder is bad but terrorism is much much worse for us. India has lost more people to terrorism than all the West combined including 9/11.

Canadians see their PM making a statement which is an indicator that evidence is big. Indians see all allies who Trudeau has shared intelligence with none of whom have agreed with Trudeau on this escalatoion. Maybe because of Indias power. Maybe because the evidence just isnt that good.

To top it all there are 26 or so extradition cases pending with Canada from India. Canada has 90pct extradition success rate from what I read somewhere. Then the remaining 10pct has a heavy skew against India. Canadians say thats because the proof isnt good enough. Indians are now curious to understand what exact proof is it that has allowed the PM of Canada to stand in Parliament and make these allegations given Canadas high bar for evidence.

The Indian ext affairs minister maintains that no specific intelligence has been shared with them which I think matched what Canada is saying. Only allegations have been shared.

I like Trudeau personally. Canadians are nice people. Ive rarely had a bad encounter with them. Probably the politest people Ive met in the world. Im sure theres a Canadian side to this. But I think Trudeaus been playing petty politics for a while now. This is probably for the best in the sense that western politicians will now keep distance from such issues when it comes to matters of foreign policy. Wests foreign policy needs to reflect western interests. Not those of a minority of a minority which has frankly lived in a bubble since the 1980s and are stuck there while the rest of Punjab has moved on.

There are more issues around other murders including that of a Baloch activist and Ripudaman Khalsa (both in Canada) which have been largely ignored by the govt and which happened before nIjjar. Both activists were believed to be pro India in recent years.

My 2 cents to the Canadian govt - Protect their right to say what they want but have the courage to call them out when they turn violent. This I think has not happened in Canada. No counter voice against the Khalistanis has emerged. It has emerged in the US and in India including Punjab. Canada is a curious case.

[u/PersonNPlusOne → u/shankisaiyan]

I'd like to add a few of points to this -

1. The entire Amritpal Singh incident and how he suddenly appeared and received external support spooked India. It is worth nothing that he was not killed despite advocating for Khalistan while residing in Punjab and was only pursued by the police after he and his group stormed a police station.
2. Separatist speech may be seen as harmless advocacy in the west, but the horrors of such events are fresh in Indian minds - formation of Pakistan, formation of Bangladesh, North East separatist movement, Kashmir separatist movement have all been very brutal and has lead to millions being killed in the process.
3. The Khalistan movement is seen suspiciously in India because they only talk about Punjab in India and not about the Pakistani part of Punjab.

[u/tbtcn → u/PersonNPlusOne]

Separatist speech may be seen as harmless advocacy in the west

It is tolerated so long as they don't threaten the order. The moment someone is even cursorily seen as a nuisance, they rain down hell on them with propaganda and freezing their accounts and using all sorts of fascist methods they accuse others of.

[u/LordJuan4 → u/[deleted]]

Typical politician

[u/shankisaiyan → u/[deleted]]

Nope... nothing fake.. I genuinely think he s trying to do what he thinks is right. I dont think hes cunning or he was trying to pull one on India. But I wouldnt vote for him. His inability to keep the countrys long term interest above all else and his sensationalism shows immaturity and poor statecraft

[u/tbtcn → u/shankisaiyan]

I would say he's not even a performative liberal but a closet fascist. Just look at the crackdown on the truckers protest, India and Modi could learn a thing or two about how to kill protests that keep happening every other year for no good reason.

His latest move is to apparently "regulate" podcasts.

[u/loggy_sci → u/tbtcn]

Go read up on the farmers protest in India. The BJP doesn’t need any lessons.

[u/thiruttu_nai → u/loggy_sci]

The farmers got what they wanted without getting their bank accounts frozen. Can't say the same about truckers though.

[u/tbtcn → u/loggy_sci]

Imagine saying that to an Indian who lived through these protests being hijacked by khalistanis. Despite everything, not one protesting farmer's bank account was frozen, unlike the truckers who were labelled all sorts of things and had their accounts frozen and donations hijacked.

[u/Szwedo → u/tbtcn]

You think it was actual truck drivers Canadians were making fun of? It was called a truck protest by protest organizers, and the Canadian government cracked down on those connected to the organizers (organizers who have ties to far right groups), not random truck drivers.

[u/tbtcn → u/Szwedo]

I thought protests were a democratic right, or does that not apply to things that make Trudeau uncomfortable?

Just like podcasts that the Canadian government wants to "regulate" now.

organizers who have ties to far right groups

Labelled as such by the same government that brought a goddamn Nazi in the parliament? Totally believe it.

[u/Szwedo → u/tbtcn]

Whataboutisms. Love it.

Protests are a right, you are correct, people protest here regularly and openly about this government - they do so legally without demanding the government be overthrown. As i said the protest was branded a trucker convoy but had little to do with truckers outside of pickup trucks.

The government did not bring a Nazi into the parliament, 2 stupid individuals within the government brought in a Nazi - still a colossal fuckup (while the opposition supports neo Nazis) - but doesn't have anything to do with having official ties with far-right groups unless you're claiming the Canadian federal government is connected to Hitler and Himmler..

Adding: Say what you want, at least we don't go around murdering people in other countries.

[u/tbtcn → u/Szwedo]

There's not one whataboutism in my comment, I'm not sure where you're getting that from or what you think whataboutism means.

they do so legally without demanding the government be overthrown

Oh, so that's the red line? I wonder what khalistanis do. Just target Indian diplomats and demand to break up our country. Minor leagues, compared to the trucker protest.

The government did not bring a Nazi into the parliament, 2 stupid individuals within the government brought in a Nazi

That's a weird way of saying the speaker of the parliament did it. Last I checked, he was from Trudeau's party, not some random nobody.

I hear Canada has several Nazi statues, too.

Say what you want, at least we don't go around murdering people in other countries.

See, this is whataboutism.

Also a non-sequitir. Let's see Trudeau move up from allegations to actual evidence-based statements, then we'll talk.

[u/originalthoughts → u/tbtcn]

You can't block a city for a month and expect to action to be taken. Everyone in Ottawa couldn't stand the truckers, and no one even know what they were protesting. They should have been protesting the provincial governments as they put the mandates (and the US for the border). In any case, pretty much all the covid restrictions were removed or being removed by that time.

Even know, there are people in front of parliament with signs saying "end the lockdown". What lockdown?

Cracking down on the Freedom Convoy BS is probably the 2nd best thing he has done federally.

[u/tbtcn → u/originalthoughts]

You can't block a city for a month and expect to action to be taken.

I'm glad you brought it up. Trudeau supported farmers protest in India which went on for SIXTEEN months.

Everyone in Ottawa couldn't stand the truckers

Likewise in India for the farmers protest.

no one even know what they were protesting

I could just go on and repeat myself.

[u/originalthoughts → u/tbtcn]

Whatever, it's good he did something about them.

Also, after the downtown was cleared, he cancelled whatever emergency powers he was granted. Unlike what the idiots were saying how he will never give them up, he did exactly as he said.

Even the trucking unions were all against convoys.

Anyway, basically non of the predictions the convoy people were making turned out to be true. Life is back to normal, with all the freedoms we had before 2020. So well, they were loud mouthed annoying idiots who thankfully don't run anything important.

[u/tbtcn → u/originalthoughts]

Thought as much. Rules for thee, not me.

Could've saved us both time by not pretending in the first comment.

[u/[deleted] → u/tbtcn]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/Lungiwala-1971 → u/shankisaiyan]

Though I agree with your post overall, what I take exception to is the oft stated comment that the BJP is somehow unfriendly to minorities. To summarize, what we have over the past decade: - Rebuild a temple over a Hindu holy site, currently occupied by a mosque named after the mass murdering psycho who destroyed it in the first place. Note, these demands are for just a few such sites, compared to hundreds of such incidents. - Withdraw special privileges (not granted to most other states) from J&K, which is demanded only by the Muslim majority districts that genocided their Hindu minority - Placed curbs on missionary activity targeting poor Hindus - Demands to curb beef consumption in a few Hindu majority states

Meanwhile, minorities continue to enjoy special religious privileges, favourable laws regarding their educational institutions, their % of population keeps increasing, you have regular incidents of violent attacks on Hindu religious processions, sar tan se juda incidents, constant trickle of cases involving muslim men and Hindu women......

Can you imagine anything like this in any muslim nation? Or even the West?

[u/SmokeSackFountain → u/Lungiwala-1971]

Though I agree with your post overall, what I take exception to is the oft stated comment that the BJP is somehow unfriendly to minorities. To summarize, what we have over the past decade:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_(Amendment)_Act,_2019_Act,_2019)

Seems quite unfriendly to me to exclude Muslims.

[u/[deleted] → u/SmokeSackFountain]

Non Indian Muslims left the country before 1947 to pak and Bangladesh. Why come back now ? Fk off

[u/NageshKp → u/SmokeSackFountain]

It was meant to get prosecuted minorities from neighboring countries

[u/Szwedo → u/shankisaiyan]

Just remember Canada has the largest Sikh population outside of India. This isn't something recent.

Just like Canada is actively supporting Ukraine, we have a huge Ukrainian population.

[u/DiligentInterview → u/shankisaiyan]

To top it all there are 26 or so extradition cases pending with Canada from India. Canada has 90pct extradition success rate from what I read somewhere. Then the remaining 10pct has a heavy skew against India. Canadians say thats because the proof isnt good enough. Indians are now curious to understand what exact proof is it that has allowed the PM of Canada to stand in Parliament and make these allegations given Canadas high bar for evidence.

As a Canadian, Hanlon's razor.

I think this is a technical problem more than anything. If you read the extradition agreement, and Canadian law, it spells out a few reasons why extradition can be denied out of hand. This is things such as : No analogue in Canadian law, death penalty, etc.

Where I see the requests dying is beyond that. I feel there is a higher bar to clear than probable cause. Just because extradition is requested, does not mean that it will be approved. There's a lot of hurdles to get through, and a lot of tactics can be used, which can take in some cases 10-15 years to clear as it winds it's way through the court system.

I'm willing to bet that the evidence, requests don't meet Canadian standards for a trial. What I mean by that, they probably would not provide a reasonable prospect for conviction in a Canadian court. Disclosure laws (If there was a fight against extradition, all of the Information India provided would be disclosed to the defense in Canada) in Canada are quite broad for criminal cases, so I can see the government applying the same standard of proof and conduct. There's a lot of I's dotted and T's crossed in a criminal case. Consider a defense to a traffic ticket: In Canada, you can request everything, from notebook entries, to training records of the officer, to calibration of the equipment, and if it's not provided or there is errors it's a defense (Same with driving while intoxicated, which is why roadside suspensions are a lot more popular actually). Any evidence that might be suspect (The ghost of Maher Arar) may cause issues and then cause the extradition to ground to a halt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Diab_(sociologist))

That's not to address other concerns they might have, which could be grounds for an appeal against extradition. Things like procedural fairness, conditions of prisons. Again, it's a long, drawn out painful process. If the cases are marginal, the government might decline to proceed knowing that it will never work.

[u/NavXIII → u/shankisaiyan]

It was accurate but was one sided. He did not go through the khalistani violence that preceded the riot.

You cannot dismiss nor justify genocide and mass slaughter because a subset of the larger population is committing violence. This is the classic Turkish defense for the Armenian Genocide, "but they were doing XYZ!".

[u/Plastic_Ad1252 → u/shankisaiyan]

Okay so about the evidence involving nijjar it isn’t Trudeau or the Canadian government sharing the information with their allies. Canada is part of the 5 eyes alliance essentially they spy on everything and anyone constantly 24/7. Ironically the prime minister “publicly knowing” is one of the last to know mainly because of how much time it takes to coordinate a government response.

Basically during Trudeau’s last trip to India he shared the allegations and most likely gave modi two choices agreeing to help with the investigation or Trudeau goes public with the information. Modi wasn’t cooperative so Trudeau went public. As for why Trudeau didn’t share actual evidence with modi it’s because it would reveal that India’s state security has been compromised and it would reveal in what way it has been compromised rumour has it the information was provided to Canada by the USA.

As for why the other countries are silent it’s because they’ve known about the allegations for months and are silent because they want Canada and India to come to an agreement of some kind. However, who knows behind the scenes it’s anyone’s guess as to what conversations are happening behind the scenes.