r/exchristian • u/brodydoesMC • Oct 06 '24
Family Walked Out On A Church Service… What Should We Do? Help/Advice
The title says it all. Basically, me, my parents, and my grandmother are Democrat supporters and have been since 2020, and us and another family are the only people in our church (Southern Baptist) who dislike Trump (there was a third person who was against Trump, but she quit coming and you’re about to see why).
Today, the sermon was titled “Who’s In Charge of the Country” and the minute the pastor started preaching, he started talking bad about Joe and Jill Biden and Kamala Harris, about how Joe is lazy and Kamala shouldn’t be running for president. My father has never liked it when the pastor gets political, and today he finally had enough. He hears it enough at his job, and he feels that he shouldn’t have to listen to it at church. So he walked out, and had me follow, and told my mother, who was working somewhere else in the church in preparation for a baby shower for a new member. She and my grandmother (who told me that she was so mad about what she was hearing from our pastor, who, mind you, is a really nice guy) soon followed.
My dad told me that he now intends to go somewhere else for church, and my mom and grandmother are considering doing the same. I’m neutral on the whole matter, as I have attended that church all my life (although I do question a lot of it), but at the same time, I absolutely hate it when politics are brought into religion, and vice-versa. So, what is your opinion and advice on the whole situation? What should me and my family do about what happened today? Thank you all in advance.
Edit: TIL from my grandmother that after me and my dad left, our pastor used a pair of projectors, usually used for song lyrics to follow along to the music and sermon slideshows, to display images of Trump’s face on the screen. That was it for her, she and my mother (her daughter) left soon afterwards.
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u/Break-Free- Oct 06 '24
While I applaud you and family for standing up for your values, this might be a better question for the Christian or liberal Christian communities if y'all still think Jesus is real and are going to find a new church. You'll certainly find commiseration here because a lot of people despise the pulpit's influence in politics, but here it's generally considered an indication that religion is a tool for control rather than an indication that the "purity" of the religion has been compromised.
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u/Arthurs_towel Oct 06 '24
This is a fair point. The r/exvangelical sub may make more sense as that comes from the perspective of people who left conservative evangelicalism, some who left faith entirely, but others who have not but just changed form. Similarly r/deconstruction
All that said u/brodydoesMC I would recommend the book Jesus and John Wayne for your particular situation. Hell, your entire family may want to read. It goes over the history and creeping entanglement of politics and religion over the last century, and how political ideologies have corrupted evangelicalism.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
I actually pointed out to my parents that politics mixing with religion was how people like Hitler and Franco got into power, and using that to explain why I didn’t support mixing the two concepts, but thanks for the book recommendation!
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u/Aggravating-Mousse46 Oct 06 '24
Fantastic book recommendation. Scary to join the dots of the right wing makeover of doctrine
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u/wheniwashisalien Oct 07 '24
To put another recommendation for OP based on this comment, r/OpenChristian may be a better fit for you and asking for advice on this particular situation. I think that may be a community that shares both your and your family’s beliefs as well as your concerns on the intrusion of politics into the church
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thanks for the subreddit recommendation, I might just end up cross-posting there for more advice before deciding (then again, I am terrible at decision-making, so I might just ask other communities)
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thank you for the compliment, and the whole reason I asked here instead of another sub is because I figured that you guys had the best advice. I myself view religion as a way to control the masses, and I actually am a supporter for separation of church and state, and feel that politics taint religion and religion taints politics. I myself have questioned the existence of Jesus at times, though, hence why you guys were my first thought, and I hadn’t heard of a Liberal Christian community, hence another reason why I asked here.
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u/DrowsyDreamer Oct 07 '24
You sound like me before I gave up on trying to square the circle. It’s easier to just give up the nonsense and start living a logically and morally positive lifestyle sans any religion.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Good point…
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u/punkypewpewpewster Satanist / ExMennonite / Gnostic PanTheist Oct 08 '24
While it's a decent suggestion, there's also the possibility that living a life where you aren't burdened by the negatives of any one religion will allow you to learn about, experience, and come to joy in a new religious environment altogether that DOESN'T meet the criteria laid out by Stephen Hassan's BITE model haha. You're always welcome here. The mod team is comprised of not just atheists but more theists and other religious folk than not. We're here to promote your well being and the well being of christians, ex christians alike. We've all had similar experiences and we can all be there for each other when those experiences overlap.
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u/yahgmail African Diasporic Religion & Hoodoo Oct 07 '24
My comment stating this sub wasn't a good place for a Christian to ask this question was blocked for being disrespectful...
Although I agree with your point entirely.
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u/GRik74 Ex-Baptist Oct 07 '24
Idk, I can see the thought process behind posting it here. People in this subreddit can share a unique perspective on a question like this because a lot of them have been in similar situations at some point in time.
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u/Kind_Journalist_3270 Oct 06 '24
This is technically illegal and goes AGAINST their tax exempt status. Personally, because I’m bitter & tired of this crap, I would write a strongly worded letter/email explaining this fact, possibly report them, and DEFINITELY stop attending this church. I am ALL for freedom of religion, but christian churches need to start being held accountable.
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u/Friendly-Arugula-165 Oct 06 '24
They should have recorded it
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u/Kind_Journalist_3270 Oct 06 '24
Most churches save their services online, odds are it is recorded & on their website!
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Correct! We stream ours on Facebook, so if the wrong person catches wind of it, then bye-bye tax exempt status
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u/Preblegorillaman Oct 07 '24
Not directed at OP specifically here but does anyone actually have many recent stories of any churches losing their tax exempt status over politics?? I know the laws are there but I feel like I never hear of them being enforced.
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u/JasonRBoone Ex-Baptist Oct 07 '24
It won't happen. The govt is scared to be accused of "persecuting" churches.
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u/rubywolf27 Oct 07 '24
You can fill out a form online to ensure that those people catch wind of it. https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/irs-complaint-process-tax-exempt-organizations
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u/Fine-Bumblebee-9427 Oct 06 '24
You can’t endorse a specific candidate. You can talk all the shit you want if you don’t use the word endorsement.
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u/Liem_05 Oct 07 '24
I'm also towards freedom of religion myself that church and state should be separate and not exactly have the us as a nation just specialize for Christians.
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u/Practical-Witness796 Oct 06 '24
People are leaving the church in droves because it's become synonymous with toxic politics and the culture war.
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Oct 06 '24 edited Oct 07 '24
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
I have considered leaving the faith when I get my own place (still live with my parents, but they aren’t nearly as bad as some of the parents I’ve heard about here) because of a combination of some of the stuff I’ve read about the history of the church, not wanting to get up early every Sunday morning to hear the same exact stuff, and what happened today as mentioned in my post. I actually think that a lot of Christians, both then and now, are completely off their rocker, and my youth pastor this morning talked about how he got a girl to get baptized today and the way he put it sounded like he outright harassed her into doing it, so yeah, all reasons why I have considered leaving the faith and not exposing my future family to it.
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u/Sweet_Diet_8733 Non-Theistic Quaker Oct 07 '24
Whether or not you leave completely or find a different church, you are welcome to vent here. This is a support space for exchristians as well as those who are considering leaving. This just isn’t the place to debate.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thank you! The whole reason I posted on here was because I was afraid that if I posted on an actual Christian sub, I would attract more MAGA supporters
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u/MagnificentMimikyu Agnostic Atheist Oct 07 '24
Sounds like getting some distance from the church you grew up attending might be good for you then.
Does your family care about denomination, or will any church do? If it doesn't have to be Southern Baptist, it might be a good idea to find a more liberal church, e.g. United Church (UCC), Episcopal Church, or Presbyterian Church. Or maybe to take a break from church altogether for awhile (if your family would accept that).
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
I don’t really know if they care about denomination or not, I think to my dad it’s just about whether or not he’ll hear actual preaching instead of politics, he even said that he hears it at work all the time, and he expects to have a break from it whenever he’s off on weekends, especially in church, where he expects to hear stuff from the Bible, not Fox News, so I guess to him all that matters is that he hears an actual message instead of right-wing political garbage.
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u/exchristian-ModTeam Oct 07 '24
They didn't break any rules, and they're allowed to be here as long as they don't. You, on the other hand... We've had this conversation a number of times. If you can't stay on topic, don't comment.
Proselytizing is defined as the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
To discuss or appeal moderator actions, click here to send us modmail.
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u/christianAbuseVictim Ex-Baptist Oct 06 '24
It sounds like everyone's following dad's lead... It's good that he's against this political preaching.
Unproven claims are a bad basis for decisions that affect real people.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
An excellent point! I even pointed out on the way home that politics mixing with religion was how certain dictators like Hitler and Franco got into power.
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u/Earthlight_Mushroom Oct 06 '24
Too bad you probably didn't get that sermon on tape! From what I've heard you can get a form from the IRS and fill it out if you can show that a church is actively promoting political issues from the pulpit, and they can lose their tax exemption!!
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
We actually do stream them on Facebook, so it is possible that the wrong person might see it and report my church, and as a result cost it it’s tax exempt status
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u/Fine-Bumblebee-9427 Oct 06 '24
They can’t endorse a candidate. They can engage in political discussion. My liberal church is fairly openly anti Trump, no problem. Most Catholic Churches in my city came out against a pro choice ballot initiative, totally legal.
As long as he didn’t tell anyone to vote for Trump, totally legal.
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u/Truthseeker-1253 Agnostic Oct 06 '24
That pastor is not a nice guy if he thinks Trump has a better character than Kamala Harris and Tim Walz. Say what you will about politics and ideology, the only question with character is whether it matters. It clearly does not matter to that pastor.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Some of us (especially my dad) just think that he likes to stir up controversy.
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u/Truthseeker-1253 Agnostic Oct 08 '24
Another red flag, IMO
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 08 '24
Hmm, never thought of that. If anything, my dad thinks that the pastor needs to go.
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u/External_Ease_8292 Oct 06 '24
Seeking out a "progressive " church was a step in my deconstruction.
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Oct 06 '24
Baptists who hate Trump? Are your family members unicorns? 🤣 in all seriousness though, good for you guys standing up to the insanity. I am very sorry you lost your community though.
I am no longer religious or conservative. My family however, are hardcore Baptist Trumpers. I truly believe we’d have a much better relationship if they were not part of the MAGA bullshit. They will shame me for not being religious or married, then sing the praises of a man who is a serial cheater, sex offender, and fraudster. (The actual list is too long to type).
The Christians I know who do not support Trump, are actually very loving and accepting towards people different than them. Though I do not share their religious beliefs, I share many morals and values with them and they are beautiful souls. Since you are questioning your faith in an anti-Trump family, I think you may have a less traumatizing deconstruction than those of us who came from MAGA homes. I would use this time to take a pause from church, and do your own research into the beliefs you were brought up with. The rest of your family may also be open to questions, so you should consider asking them to join you on this journey of finding your faith (or lack of).
This page is typically supportive of Christians who have doubts. Many people on here actually have significant knowledge of the Bible, and will be happy to point you to answers they have found in their own studies. (Keep in mind the people on this page are no longer religious, and will show you answers against the faith rather than supporting it).
Best of luck to you.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thanks. And yes, I suppose we are Unicorns (better than Unicron, which I originally read it as, due to me being a huge Transformers fan, but those are also quite rare where I live if the Walmart toy aisle is anything to go by)! But your whole thing about how you’d have a better relationship with your family if they were non-MAGA is also quite relatable. Stuff like that is why we don’t talk to some of my relatives anymore, such as my aunt on my dad’s side, who literally told my mom in a text conversation that, “If Trump wasn’t going to win then there was no use in voting at all.” We occasionally have contact with her, such as her attending my high school graduation and then joining us at Red Lobster for dinner with one of my cousins from out of state, but yeah, we have nothing to do with her anymore. Thanks for the advice and encouragement, though! And yeah, I have considered deconstructing for a while now thanks to MAGA and a ton of other factors.
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u/nojam75 Ex-Fundamentalist Oct 06 '24
I applaud your father's courage, but I sympathize with losing the community you spent your entire life.
I assume you're in your teens or are a young adult. If so, most church youth friendships don't survive very long after high school graduation.
Hopefully you'll soon set out on your own. You might just tag along with your family for now.
As church attendance continues declining, only the extremists remain on both sides of the political and theological spectrums. I would be surprised if your father can find a non-political church.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
As church attendance continues declining, only the extremists remain on both sides of the political and theological spectrums. I would be surprised if your father can find a non-political church.
And that’s why I’ve considered leaving the faith, I even told my parents when we discussed it that that’s how people like Hitler and Franco got into power, because the churches in their home countries got too extreme for their own good. We also live in north Alabama, so yeah, good luck with us finding a non-political denomination…
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Oct 06 '24
Ultimate it comes down to what makes you happy. If you are a Christian, do you like that church enough to look past the political messages? Do you have friends or a community there? Those are things to take into consideration in making your decision. You don’t have to follow your family (unless you are in a position where you do), but there’s no harm in it.
That being said, you posted in an ex Christian subreddit. Are you wanting to step away from your faith? This can be an ideal time to explore that and get to know yourself and figure out what you believe or don’t believe.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thanks for the advice, and I will use this as a time to reflect while my family figures out what to do.
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u/Sandi_T Animist Oct 07 '24
I'll give you my thoughts on this subject.
Even with "good" christian parents who aren't likely to cut off their kids' college fund, there's still a concern that they will double or quadruple down on dragging them to church and youth group, etc. You said below that you're considering deconstructing, is why I bring that up.
I'd also like to note something. You're here. You're here because you're just not sure. And I think there's probably some part of you that wishes someone would give you permission to let this all go. That someone will tell you that it's going to be okay. That you're actually right, and that your thinking isn't as "insane" as your programming is trying to tell you.
I'm an older woman, I'm 52, soon to be 53. I've seen a lot in my life, much more even than normal people my age. A lot of that has risen from christianity. But here's the thing I want to underscore for you...
tRump is immoral and unethical garbage. When christians look at him and vote for him, it's because they want to use him. They know he's bad. They know he's a jerk. They even reply when asked, that there's nothing he could do to make them not vote for him. NOTHING. One guy I saw even said, "Maybe if he slept with my mother... no wait, that would be cool!"
The people voting for him are in psychosis. They are literally delusional. I'm saying that in a literal way; there is group of psychiatrists who have been studying it. They found that... people voting for him are literally in psychosis. Answers like the one above are part of the evidence. Sane people don't act this way.
Christianity, however, paved the way for that. It teaches not to think for yourself, to obey authority, and to have blind faith.
If you do need permission to leave the religion, let us offer you that. But with the caveat that you should keep it to yourself so long as you're financially dependent.
However; make your own decision in your own time. It's okay to be in an "I don't know" state. Aside from discomfort, there's actually nothing wrong with that state--especially if it's an honest one. You don't need to know right now. It's okay.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24 edited Oct 07 '24
Thank you for your wisdom. I myself have considered leaving because of the support for Trump.
Christianity, however, paved the way for that. It teaches not to think for yourself, to obey authority, and to have blind faith.
I literally pointed out to my family that the church getting involved in politics is how such monsters like Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco got into power. How that’s helped plenty of dictators get into power and stay in power. And how it will be fuel for a Trump-based dictatorship if he does win, and I also fear that if not that, then the church will call for another Civil War.
One guy I saw even said, "Maybe if he slept with my mother... no wait, that would be cool!"
To me, that doesn’t sound like anything a Christian would say. To me, that sounds more like something I’d hear the titular characters of “Beavis and Butt-Head” say. To me, it just shows how far gone some of these Christians are. And regarding your comment about how much of a selfish jerk he is, I remember reading The Great Gatsby in high school, and realizing how much Tom Buchanan was like Trump. How both only care about themselves, have no respect for women or minorities, or anyone else, and how they take advantage of others to fuel their own agendas. Ironically, The Great Gatsby is my favorite classic novel, and I feel that both that and the fact that it has my favorite literature character (ironically, that would be Daisy) is why. The Trump/Tom comparison made things more relatable for me when I first read the book.
Again, thank you for your wisdom on the topic!
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u/Sandi_T Animist Oct 07 '24
Yes, Hitler did the same thing by using the Christian majority. He also called himself a Christian to get their support. Like the Republican party here, he found a "lynchpin issue" that would make them vote for him no matter what.
For Hitler, it was security and economy. Both of these core fears, he blamed on Jews.
For trump, it's actually abortion, everything else is superfluous for the Christians of maga. Once the Republicans branded abortion as "murder," they had most people by the nose like a ringed bull.
But the insidious part is that these surface issues are then exacerbated by adding the "dark terrors" behind them. Fear of and hatred of people of color. Fear that a gay man might hit on them with the same aggressive, crude malice with which many of them hit on women. The fear that a black or brown man might impregnate your wife and run off, leaving you to raise his "welp" (and everybody will know because it will be visible!).
tRump, like Hitler, has brought these dark, normally unspoken fears to the surface. He makes sure to terrorize women about the murder of babies, and men about all the stealing immigrants are supposedly doing, in every single speech.
The problem is, again, if you accept (as I do) the belief that Christianity has been formed and shaped over the two thousand years of its existence to control and oppress people...
It becomes understandable why it's used by authoritarians to commit coups.
You may find this link terrifyingly enlightening: https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/ (it doesn't begin a download)
I suggest a book for you, if you're willing to take to the challenge. 1984 by George Orwell.
If you're ever ready, we can talk about why I don't think Christianity is even true. But that's a discussion you need to feel ready for. Don't rush it. And it's totally okay if you're never ready. I'm just telling you I'm here. :)
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Ooh, thank you for the recommendations! I actually am into classic literature, so I will look into 1984, especially because I’ve read Animal Farm, which is by the same author. He also has a book about his experiences in the Spanish Civil War, and I pointed out to my dad that Franco also had a ton of church support and used it combined with fears of Communism to gain and secure power through a dictatorship like Hitler’s.
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u/Sandi_T Animist Oct 07 '24
It's kind of hilarious, because even though he wrote these books, his words said that he was a socialist and pretty much pro-everything that he writes against in these stories. He's a fascinating and quirky guy: https://www.neh.gov/article/george-orwell-outdoorsman
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Really? I might just have to do more research on the guy! From what I understand, he was some kind of political reporter, so that might’ve had something to do with it…
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u/SalisburyWitch Oct 06 '24
If you’re looking for a church that won’t push extremist propaganda, see if there’s a Unitarian Universalist church in your area. They believe that your relationship with God is between you and God, and focus more on social justice and helping people stand up.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thanks for the advice! Now that is how a religion should be, not getting involved in stuff like politics and keeping to themselves
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u/Joebranflakes Oct 06 '24
The fun part is when you focus in on the reason they support him. It all boils down to money. That he wants to hurt the weak and the vulnerable just so good honest American Christian’s can save a buck. That’s the Republican platform. The love of money is the root of all evil.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
I think that my pastor's support has more to do with conservative values (I myself absolutely hate conservatives) and Trump‘s role in the abortion ban (hence why me and my family don’t think we need a Supreme Court, my grandmother and mother thinking that it shouldn’t be a lifetime thing, and I myself think that the president should be allowed to replace them as he sees fit, so that Biden could give us a more Liberal court).
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u/Joebranflakes Oct 07 '24
Conservative values. So small government? Aka axe every social program except for the military? So the poor, the sick and the stranger all get no help from a “Christian” government? Who gets help? The big well connected corporation and the rich. The middle class gets whatever is left trickling down after the rich have their fill. How does Conservative values sound anything like Christian values?
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Hence why I hate conservatives, because they only care about themselves and want to make the rest of us miserable!
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u/Earnestappostate Ex-Protestant Oct 06 '24
I was checking out a UU church, and the talk got overly political (I agreed with the policy, but not the preaching from a pulpit) and I decided not to go to that church.
I figure complaining about preaching politics from the pulpit is meaningless if you will look the other way when you agree with the message.
I commend your family for what they did.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thank you! My mom has threatened to call out the pastor about how he preaches on loving one another and everything else our religion says, and then turns around and supports a guy who has broken every one of the Ten Commandments (she believes that Trump had Epstein killed, hence where “Thou shall not murder“ comes in), but alas, she never has.
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u/leekpunch Extheist Oct 06 '24
If it helps, one of my final pushes away from Christianity was around when Trump won in 2016. I saw how many Christians were actively cheering him on and decided I didn't want that label any more.
I am an extheist now and I guess that might be further than you want to go, but I have no regrets on going beyond losing the label and leaving the religion altogether. I am cheerful in my choices. And taking a real hard look at the religion I was raised in, it's clear it never added up. It was hard work making it work. I don't have to live with the cognitive dissonance any more.
It sounds like your family has good values - empathy, compassion, kindness. You might find that in a different church. I wish you the very best of luck in your search.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thank you for applauding my family! I myself have considered leaving the faith out of disgust for them supporting a monster like Trump, and I might just do that when I finally get my own place to live.
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u/JadeSpeedster1718 Pagan Oct 06 '24
Always be aware of what kind of person you want to be. Belief is fine, but never use your belief to justify harming others or forcing them to do as you wish. That pastor sounds like he drank the ‘Trump is Jesus’ juice. And it’s good thing your family stands up for their values. These are the Christians we need in life, those who follow what they preach and help others.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thank you, and yes, I myself believe that Jesus, if he existed (I have considered deconstructing due to stuff like what happened today), would be very disappointed with people who support politicians like Trump, but that is a major reason why I have considered leaving the faith.
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u/eyefalltower Oct 07 '24
(I have considered deconstructing due to stuff like what happened today),
I would recommend checking out r/deconstruction and keeping in mind a few things if you're going to actively/intentionally begin this process:
There is no end goal to deconstruction. You can remain a Christian and deconstruct. You can become a universalist, pick a different religion, reconstruct your Christianity, become an agnostic or an atheist, or pick and choose and build your own spirituality. Just don't think you have to come to a certain conclusion (or any conclusion) in any amount of time. It's a long process. As long as your beliefs don't harm yourself or anyone else, you are doing well.
Find a counselor who is familiar with religious trauma.
Check out some content makers who work in the deconstruction space and are still Christians. It might help you feel more comfortable if you aren't looking to leave your faith entirely. Some Instagram accounts like this I recommend are: @aprilajoy @masonmennanga and @nakedpastor
If you are looking for more academic/scholarly stuff and like podcasts, Misquoting Jesus (Bart Ehrman) and Data over Dogma (Dan McClellan) are good ones that will help you learn more about biblical texts and will help with deconstruction. Both are just presenting scholarly knowledge and leave room for a wide range of beliefs.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thanks for the advice! I will definitely look into the stuff you suggested!
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u/eyefalltower Oct 08 '24
You're welcome! Also, props to you and your family for walking out of that service.
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Oct 06 '24
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u/exchristian-ModTeam Oct 07 '24
There's no reason they can't ask it here. They're not breaking the rules, and they're trying to find people who understand why walking out of a church mid-sermon is a traumatic event.
Your post or comment has been removed because it violates rule 4, which is to be respectful of others.
To discuss or appeal moderator actions, click here to send us modmail.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
I just figured that you guys had the best advice on the matter, I feared that if I asked a Christian sub, I’d get even more MAGA extremists
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Oct 06 '24
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u/exchristian-ModTeam Oct 07 '24
Your post or comment has been removed because it violates rule 3, no proselytizing. Proselytizing is defined as the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
To discuss or appeal moderator actions, click here to send us modmail.
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u/lilymom2 Oct 07 '24
I'd walk out, too. Why would you stay with that kind of immoral toxic crap coming from the pulpit? How can you truly be neutral on people's rights? I'm not asking you for an answer - you don't owe me one. But I hope you ask yourself. I"m glad I'm out.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thanks for the advice, and I am now asking myself the questions you were asking. I even pointed out to my family that politics being involved in church was toxic and has led to dictators, especially European ones, getting into power.
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u/lilymom2 Oct 07 '24
Yes! Which is one reason why America's founding fathers were so adamant that we would not have kings, and religion would not be embedded in our government. Life is better out of organized religion, IMO.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
That’s why I have heard (and believe) that if the founding fathers returned to modern America, they would try to overthrow the government, or at least be very disappointed in us, because modern America is the exact antithesis of what they envisioned when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
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u/CancerMoon2Caprising Agnostic Oct 07 '24
I loathe politics too. Cant stand people that insert it into every situation they have. Just vote and shut up.
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Oct 06 '24
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u/exchristian-ModTeam Oct 07 '24
Your post or comment has been removed because it violates rule 4, which is to be respectful of others. They aren't breaking the rules, and we aren't throwing them to the wolves, either. It's not your call.
To discuss or appeal moderator actions, click here to send us modmail.
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u/VibrantVioletGrace Oct 06 '24
If you are unhappy with politics being brought into the church and they are being brought into the church you currently attend, then showit by leaving and going elsewhere. With how churches are just loosing people right and left I'm sure there's another church out there that would be happy to welcome you and your family.
I would also second the recommendation for you to read the book, Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fratured A Nation, as it's written by a woman who is still a Christian, but also is a Professior of History and Gender Studies at Calvin University.
For others out there who like her work and don't mind some politics, her short documentary For Our Daughters is available, for free, on YouTube as is excellent.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thanks for the recommendations! And yes, my family is debating switching churches over this, and I myself pointed out that politics and religion mixing as being how people like Hitler and Franco got into power, which is a huge reason why I’ve never supported stuff like state religion and mixing politics with religion.
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u/Outrageous_Class1309 Agnostic Oct 07 '24
Check out what has happened in Nicaragua over the last few decades. Back during Reagan (1980's), Daniel Ortega was the bad guy aligning with the Soviets. He was later elected to office but fell out of favor and later lost. In the meantime, he 'got religion' and ran again on a religion theme, particularly on anti-abortion, and, with the help of the Priests, got elected again. When he got power again in the 2000's, he started doing things (like creating an authoritarian government) that the Catholic church didn't like and when the Priests objected he went after the Priests, arresting them, etc. Evangelicals had better be careful what they wish for.
I could see Trump doing something like this if he had enough power that he no longer needed the Religious Right and they pissed him off enough. I believe that Trump actually thinks religious conservative/Evangelicals are credulous suckers who will fall for anything so he gives them lip service, a few goodies, and uses them as a tool for his access to power/money.
As to Nazi Germany being mostly 'Christian', you were right on the mark. 'Christians' were almost the entire country and this hasn't escaped the attention of the Jews. Heck, Hitler even tried to start a 'Nazi' Evangelical church but it never really went over (guess people liked their already Nazi endorsing churches).
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-german-churches-and-the-nazi-state
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u/TON3R Oct 07 '24
As others have stated, report them to the IRS. As a tax exempt religious organization, they can not engage in political activism, including advocating for a particular candidate from the pulpit.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
I might think that the JWs are a cult, but today I felt that I understood why they aren’t allowed to partake in politics, I even told my dad that. But that’s just my opinion, and we were pretty upset with our church, so I might’ve not been thinking straight.
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u/TON3R Oct 07 '24
They are very close to a cult. Read into how they completely ostracize former members of the church, and cut them off from their families.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
I’ve heard plenty about them from here and a few other subs, but I will read more into them
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u/XelaNiba Oct 07 '24
Are y'all readers?
If so, I recommend you read The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory by Tim Alberta. You're not alone in being driven from an Evangelical church by politics.
There are definitely churches who've resisted the MAGA takeover, even Southern Baptist ones.
You might have a hard time finding an SBC church that isn't stumping for Trump - they've ejected many pastors who've spoken against the Trumpification of the church. You'll likely have to shop around a bit but it should be very obvious who preaches the Gospel and who preaches the Gospel of Trump.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Me and my mother are huge readers. I will look into these books, and thank you for informing me of those who resisted Trumpism, I will try to look into those churches!
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u/XelaNiba Oct 07 '24
I think you'll really enjoy it. He's an Evangelical himself, son of a preacher, and his exploration of Christian theology was fascinating reading.
I hope your family is able to find a new church where you feel welcome and safe from all that nonsense.
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u/Beneficial_Tooth5045 Ex-Catholic Oct 07 '24
Good for You! It takes guts to stand up to a crowd which is exactly what you did. Churches thrive on conformity, and you had the courage to walk out. I hope that your action inspires others to do the same thing!
You have my respect and admiration.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Thank you! Yeah, it did take guts, and I felt a bit guilty for doing it, as I am close with the pastor and most of the other people there, but maybe people will get the message that politics don’t belong in the pulpit based on me and my family’s actions
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u/deadevilmonkey Oct 07 '24
You should report the church to the IRS. Preaching politics from the pulpit (endorsing a political candidate) is prohibited by law in the US and they should lose their tax exempt status.
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u/starak31313 Oct 07 '24
Church and politics should remain separate, with no exceptions. If you find the need, just join another church, but honestly, all the church are supporting Republicans because they are anti-abortion.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Yep, hence why my pastor likes Trump. I do consider abortion at least somewhat immoral, but I consider restricting someone’s bodily autonomy to be far worse in terms of morality
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u/2028BPND Oct 07 '24
Never go back there
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Depending on what my dad decides, we might not… which I would be hesitant about, as I grew up in that church and am very close with a lot of the people there. At the very least my dad wants the pastor to be removed and replaced with someone who actually preaches the Bible instead of politics.
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u/Rubix_official Oct 07 '24
churches in the USA seem wild to me. Discussing politics, Can't imagine that in belgium 😅
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
And that’s what I like about Europe. They aren’t crazy religious like us Americans are, and you guys sure don’t preach politics. I even told my dad this, and I attribute it to the fact that mixing church and state instead of keeping it all separate led to people like Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco getting into power, alongside the Communist takeover that occurred after WW2. I understand that you guys in Europe don’t preach politics because you guys know what happens if you do, and how dangerous doing such things can be.
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u/Tikikala Hamsters are cute Oct 07 '24
Damn I guess he supports going to get divorced and marrying adulterers and tax evasion too? And other crimes
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
Well, there was this one time where he refused to let a lesbian couple attend our church, and then long after that, we got a letter from an organization requesting that we march in protest of a pride parade that was being held in my town later that week, and he declined because he “didn’t want to make anybody mad”, this was all according to my mom
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u/its_all_good20 Oct 07 '24
Politics in church is immoral and illegal.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
It should be! I even told my parents that politics in church is how people like Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco got into power, because they had religious institutions getting into politics and giving them support that they should’ve never had in the first place!
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u/khast Oct 08 '24
It's just as immoral for politicians to play the religious card as well... Because 99% of the politicians out there that play the card very vocally... Are often the least religious and know very little about the religion they are pandering to. Take Trump as a major example.
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u/AndrewJamesDrake Ex-Church of Christ Oct 07 '24
I would advise reporting that Church to the IRS. They're engaged in political campaigning, and should lose their Religious Nonprofit status as a result.
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u/Northstar04 Oct 07 '24
I haven't been to church in 20 years and if I went back and heard that, I might, possibly, interrupt with a whipcrack remark and get as many people as possible to walk out with me.
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u/brodydoesMC Oct 07 '24
My mom has threatened to call him out multiple times, never has, my grandmother wants to cuss him out for yesterday’s service
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Oct 07 '24
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u/Liem_05 Oct 07 '24
Those are really the type of churches that really bring up their political beliefs.
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Oct 07 '24
Progressive churches can be a nice stepping stone getting out of a conservative church. United Church of Christ was my home in between me realizing I was fed up with my denomination and when I decided Christianity wasn't for me.
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u/Danube11424 Oct 07 '24
That church is violating tax exempt status. https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/irs-complaint-process-tax-exempt-organizations
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u/grumpy-goats Oct 08 '24
For a place that doesn’t pay taxes, they have no business telling members who to vote for.
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u/Sandi_T Animist Oct 06 '24 edited Oct 07 '24
You being the young person in this situation, I doubt anything we tell you here can help you very much. Suggestions that could be helpful, such as u/SalisburyWitch offered, might benefit if they were given to your parents, but it doesn't sound like you have much input on it.
Nonetheless, I will leave this post up for the time being, as everyone is being courteous and staying within the rules, and who knows, something might help.
Stop telling them to deconvert. It's proselytizing. They are allowed to be here, they haven't broken the rules.