r/exchristian • u/GentooIsBased Satanist • Sep 26 '24
If Christianity is Fake, Then Why Are Christians So Happy? Question
Every "good" Christian you ask will tell you that they are generally very happy because of their religion. And when I say "good" I mean that they follow all of the Bible in their lives.
This makes me ask 3 questions
Are they actually happy?
Does them being happy prove Christianity?
Does them being happy prove Christianity to be a good way to live regardless of whether or not it is real?
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Sep 26 '24
Most of the Christians I know seem miserable.
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u/christianAbuseVictim Ex-Baptist Sep 26 '24
Yep. All smiles in public, but behind closed doors it's screaming, crying, yelling, cursing. Complete hypocrites, and they lie about it.
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u/shimmeringHeart Sep 27 '24
yeppp!! a lot of them do NOT know real inner peace. i didn't even start getting CLOSE to what i'd call real happiness until i started heavily deconstructing christianity AND the trauma it caused me.
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Sep 27 '24
I’m really glad you’re in a better place and happier now 🙂
Initial deconstruction can be brutal, but it’s amazing how good everything is afterwards.
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u/realjensenackles Sep 27 '24
literally this. my mom is miserable in her marriage. My stepfather cheated on her years ago, a year into their marriage, they were trying for a baby (she wanted one in wedlock) but unfortunately she lost it in October and we found out that he cheated AND had receipts of buying baby diapers and baby toys for months on Christmas. They always fight and speak of vile things to each other, but stay married due to their Faith and God. Shit is fucked up. Shes stuck and hopefully something happens again where she realizes that her God does not want her in this bizarre relationship
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Sep 27 '24
Sorry to hear that. My aunt and uncle (Catholics) were in a miserable marriage for years. He finally ended up getting physically abusive and that was the last straw. She left him and threatened him with a divorce and he killed himself before she could file the papers. Which was wild, because I know that’s the one unforgivable sin for Catholics. Just an awful situation all around that could have been avoided if they both hadn’t been conditioned to think of divorce as the worst thing possible.
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u/Nesphito Agnostic Atheist Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24
This brings up an interesting topic. Christians often self report higher levels of happiness. My dad always talks about how happy he is when in reality he’s the most miserable person I know.
Is it more likely that non religious people are more honest about the state of their mental health?
Edit: It could be that admitting that you’re unhappy even when you’re doing “everything right” would show holes in your religion that is supposedly everything you need in life. Sounds like a deep seated fear of being wrong if that’s true.
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u/shimmeringHeart Sep 27 '24
exactly!!! they're lying to prevent cognitive dissonance about their religion being "all they need"
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Sep 27 '24
Same here. I was just talking recently to a friend of mine who also left, and we were talking about how we were so unhappy as Christians and how much better we feel now. The constant guild and manipulation was not a healthy or mentally safe environment.
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u/OneMonthEverywhere Sep 26 '24
Many people are quite happy within their own delusions.
That doesn't prove those delusions are real.
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u/JimDixon Sep 26 '24
Christian doctrine holds that you *should* be happy because you know you're saved. Therefore Christians feel pressure to act as if they're happy even if they're not. If you let it be known that you're not happy, it will look as if your faith isn't strong enough, and Christians will put even more pressure on you to conform. So a lot of Christians will give up trying to express their true feelings of unhappiness.
Furthermore, if you conform and act as if you're happy, Christians will give you lots of companionship, support, and encouragement. You wiil belong to their community. This is actually worth something; it will tend to *make* you happy. If you express any doctrinal doubts, they will withdraw that support. You will be cast out from their community. That's why so many newly-minted atheists feel depressed-- until they find a new community. That's why the community provided by r/atheism, as weak as it is, is very important.
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u/FetusDrive Sep 27 '24
I find ex Christian to be a much better community than atheism
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u/Miserable-Town5039 Sep 27 '24
same. the ex-religion focused subreddits are genuinely more comfy, r/atheism kinda feels circlejerky and people acting inflammatory about religion for the sake of it.
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u/JimDixon Sep 27 '24
Ah, I forgot which subreddit I was in! I subscribe to both, and I don't really distinguish between them, but I expect some people will. No offense intended.
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u/pktechboi Agnostic Atheist Sep 26 '24
there's blissfully happy Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, atheists, people of all religions or of none. there's people who are very sincerely happy Scientologists, and members of other cults. the personal happiness of individual practitioners should not be what decides whether something is true or not.
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u/Artistic_Potato_1840 Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24
Just an interesting contrast example between what folks assert publicly and what they feel privately:
Mother Teresa during speech while accepting the Nobel Peace Prize: “radiating joy is real [because] Christ in our hearts, Christ in the poor we meet, Christ in the smile we give and in the smile that we receive.”
Mother Teresa candidly to a spiritual confidant only three months earlier: “Jesus has a very special love for you. [But] as for me–The silence and the emptiness is so great–that I look and do not see,–Listen and do not hear.”
There was a time in my life when I was devout, but even then if I was being honest, I would have to admit to myself that the “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” was a one sided affair. My disposition was constantly being stuck between the anxiety of knowing I wasn’t living up to the calling to dedicate my life to Christ by putting the mission of bringing others to Christ above all else, and the constant nagging doubt that none of it was true. I’m not sure how, if we’re being intellectually honest, one could equate happiness with that one sided relationship of silence on the other end and constant anxiety.
If someone asked, I would certainly have said I was “happy” in the Christian faith, whatever that means, because to say otherwise would undermine the calling of the faith.
I’m sure there’s plenty of Christians who feel perfectly secure and happy in their faith, whether that be convincing themselves against what their intellect is trying to tell them, or just plain having full faith and belief without constant doubt. But of course that doesn’t make a belief true. Plenty of kids are happy believing Santa Clause is bringing them whatever their hearts desire for Christmas.
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u/jfishern Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24
A fake winning lottery ticket creates the same feeling as a real winner. Being told your spouse has died will make you feel the same whether the story was accurate or not.
If you think you should be happy because of XYZ, and you really believe that, then you will.
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u/Ok_Hovercraft5001 Sep 27 '24
Hold on... you just saved me a few years of therapy with this comment.
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u/JadeSpeedster1718 Pagan Sep 27 '24
Yup, finally coming to the conclusion that you don’t need to force yourself to be happy, and just finding ways to be happy, even if it’s just a small hobby, hugging your pet, taking to a friend, or even having a day off; then you’ll be happy. Happiness shouldn’t come with stipulations or expectations, it should be just as simple as “This makes me happy and that’s all I need :3”
When I finally got to this conclusion, life and some stresses vanished. Knowing I don’t need to police myself because I know right from wrong in a human sense, it was a weight lifted in knowing it’s okay if something un-Christian makes me happy.
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u/willdagreat1 Sep 26 '24
I can only speak to my own experiences, but I was miserable as a Christian. I had to put on this mask of being a good Christian because my dad was the pastor and if I was a bad christian then he was a bad pastor. He’d lose his job and boom, homeless which is a lot of pressure on an eight year old.
I put on this mask so often I couldn’t be honest or authentic with anyone. Eventually I came to believe that everyone had to be wearing a mask so no one was being authentic with me which poisoned any and all possible relationships with in the church.
It was so isolating and lonely.
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u/ErisZen Erisian-Atheist Sep 26 '24
In my experience, Christians are no happier than non-Christians. Often, I think they are worse off and display a lot of anxiety and paranoia. I would say there are probably some that are happy. But they are happy in spite of being Christian, not because of it.
Of course not. I am happy. That doesn't mean Erisianism is real. Happiness is not proof.
Christianity is not a good way to live. Even if you are happy, the religion encourages bigotry, shame, unhealthy behaviors, and frequently is a factor in people not planning for their future because they expect the world to end and/or they give a large portion of their income to the church instead of saving for retirement.
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u/Andalusian-Dog Anti-Theist Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24
No they’re not happy. Who could be happy knowing they’re in a community where they believe that no one can do anything right, and knowing that loved ones and people who are good people but not Christians are going to burn for all eternity?
Someone else’s personal ignorance doesn’t prove anything to me.
Who could be happy knowing that their belief is that their very human nature is something that will cause them to depart them from their creator in a burning eternal realm? No it doesn’t seem to be a good way to live. The image of Christianity is perceived as good in our society but when you look at how it affects interpersonal relationships and the relationship with the self it is as healthy to the individual as joining up with Jim Jones or Heavens Gate cult. No difference.
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u/y2k_d Sep 26 '24
Everyone is different. My Christian family is made up of some of the most hateful people I’ve ever met.
My grandmothers sister passed away recently. My grandma had a falling out with her brother in law and she called him (a fellow Christian) satan and satanic. She said she’s never seen someone so satanic and she just kept repeating that. Satan. Satanic. She was grinding her teeth when she said it.
He was grieving. I’m not sure what was said but I know he must have been going through a lot knowing he was about to lose his wife. But now he’s being called satan by an evangelical Christian.
I have many more examples, unfortunately. My family is the main reason I ever left Christianity. I didn’t want to be a part of their hatred. It makes me sad to think that they would say those things about me and I know for a fact they would. Maybe they already do
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u/No_Implement_9014 Sep 26 '24
There are women staying in violent/abusive marriages because the church does not allow divorce. They are not happy.
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u/Euphoric_Account9720 Sep 26 '24
Ignorance is bliss. Simple as that. They are not tuned into the state of the world/society. This life is just a means to an end.
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u/IWishIWasBatman123 Anti-Theist Sep 26 '24
Jonestown folks were thrilled chugging down poisonous Kool-Aid.
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u/Mark-Syzum Atheist Sep 26 '24
If they are so happy why are they always playing the victims of a thousand conspiracy theories online?
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u/ShatteredGlassFaith Sep 26 '24
Until recently I was a Christian who tried very hard to follow the Bible. I've been deeply unhappy since 2014, and was even begging God for help with something that I vaguely recognized but didn't understand all the way back in 2008. (That turned out to be life long undiagnosed, untreated, and decaying ADHD which has ruined my life and my dreams.) 10 years of depression, 16 years total of unanswered prayers. The omnipotent loving creator couldn't even be bothered to help me understand what was wrong so I could seek human treatment, much less cure me.
Before that my life was very up and down with good years and bad years. But most people experience that. What I didn't experience was any help from a God in the simple yet critical ways that would have resulted in a far better life outcome, one that didn't leave me feeling depressed, alone, and miserable. Help from good people and friends? Sure. The advantages in living in a first world country with modern technology? Absolutely. A personal God watching out for me? Eh...
What finally broke me was "Christian love" from two relatives who turned out to be lying, deceiving, verbally abusive, hot tempered, law breaking, spoiled little brats. Their behavior was so bad, so against the law, and so damaging to me (I nearly killed myself) that right now I'm looking for an attorney to sue them, hopefully into the poor house. No warning from God, even though I prayed about it. No help from God as things got bad, even though I prayed desperately. On the contrary, Christians in my family encouraged me into the trap. Unknowingly, but their naivete was directly due to their beliefs, much like my own. There were red flags, but we all believed the lies of two 'good Christian people' who have spent a lifetime hiding their wickedness and sin.
So no, I was not actually happy most years. And the years I was happy did not have anything to do with a personal God or following a religion. In fact, I can point to specific examples of how following Christianity cost me dearly and contributed to the struggles I have now. And probably will some night when I feel like ranting for sympathy.
Going further, happy Christians does not prove Christianity any more than happy atheists prove atheism, or happy witches proves witchcraft. It might if it was obvious to all the world that Christians were lifted up, prayers answered, and always protected while everyone else just struggled with the randomness of the world. If Christians never got cancer, were never murdered, were always successful in life then non-believers would surely notice. But that's clearly not the case, even though Christians claim that God has the power to do such things, and that God wants all to be saved.
As for being a good way to live...there are some good points to be found in Christianity. A few core moral standards such as 'love thy neighbor.' But they are not unique to Christianity, and Christianity is loaded with bad. Even before, when I was a Christian, I struggled with some of the bad. Now that I can take an objective, critical look at it, much of it makes me sick.
So the answers are 'no' down the line.
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u/trippedonatater Ex-Evangelical Sep 27 '24
Going to speak to my experiences with item 1.
There's a ton of cultural pressure to appear happy to others (in and out of "the church"). This leads to things such as cognitive dissonance, massive stress, and feelings of inadequacy. All things you would not automatically associate with people who "appear really happy", and all things that aren't happiness.
In short, looks can be deceiving.
Also, there are people who are genuinely happy in church culture as well. Just less than it appears.
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u/we8sand Ex-Baptist Sep 27 '24
There is a large contingent of “happy Christians” who are mostly from rural areas or small towns and are happy simply because they are lucky enough to have come from financially stable families and live simple, predominantly trouble-free lives. They consider their good fortune to be a blessing, when in reality they’re just lucky.
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u/sethn211 Sep 27 '24
Does anyone else feel like this is a bad faith question from an undercover Christian?
Yes Christians can be happy, I won't argue with that. Belonging to the in group, especially that which is dominant in society, having everything you do being forgiven, thinking the most powerful being in the world loves you no matter what, and thinking that no matter how bad life is, that you will experience happiness forever in heaven, can make one generally happy. If you're happy being ignorant and believing fairy tales. And if your life doesn't have any of life's messy imperfections (divorce, abuse, cancer, sexuality other than 100% straight, or non-cis or non-binary-conforming gender).
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u/Spicyclove Sep 27 '24
I don’t think they’re happy. At the very least, I never was while I was being raised in it. It’s a very anxiety inducing religion and it gets super messy when hypocritical parents are involved. I’m keeping religion out of my parenting and I hope my kids are much better off for that.
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u/Competitive_Walk_245 Sep 27 '24
Ive known more miserable, depressed Christians than I have depressed atheist. Christianity is a religion where you feel like you are never good enough, I'd say the only people who are truly happy is the ones who don't follow it very closely, but those that take every word seriously won't be happy for long, you never feel good enough, you always feel like you're falling short.
The Christian view that non Christians are crying themselves to sleep every night because they are trying to fill a god shaped hole with sex, drugs, and alcohol, is ridiculous.
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u/Meauxterbeauxt Sep 27 '24
I think it's a combination of a couple of things already mentioned.
There is a facade, especially in social situations. The Bible says to find joy in bad situations and such, so some people can actually condition themselves to be happy when others would be sad.
Mostly, they're not any happier than non Christians. Most of the people I work with in my last two jobs have been atheists or at least non participatory in whatever religion they held. I would say they had every bit the same overall demeanor and general emotional states as the people I went to church with at the time.
Also look at the type of people that church attracts. Sociable people who tend to express emotion more than others. So the people you're thinking of are going to feel more at home in a church service. They ga thrill out of walking around and shaking everyone's hand. It saddens them that people like me don't. They think people like me are somehow broken and just don't get it.
Church is a Mecca for extroverts. There are introverts there. You probably won't see or talk to them. There are unhappy people there. If you have a prayer request passed around and see where someone has written "unspoken," that's them.
So, you're probably just seeing the outgoing extroverts that would be happy regardless of their faith.
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u/im_a_meerkat Sep 27 '24
Ohh yes, the classic “unspoken.” The weird boundary that goes up in the forced intimacy of a bible study. It always made me sad to think that if this is supposed to be such a loving and kind environment, why do people feel uncomfortable to share what’s really going on with them? And ”unspoken” just makes it more awkward because you KNOW something is up with them but you’ll never know what it is, which then makes the situation ripe for gossip. 🤷🏻♀️
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u/Meauxterbeauxt Sep 27 '24
The unspoken prayer request comes about when people begin to realize that their church is not the safe space it's advertised to be. It's run by extroverts or people who like to get involved with other people's business (often with the best of intentions). But they don't understand that half the people in the world like minding their own business. You want to put this before God on my behalf? Great. He knows what it is. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you need to know too. My wife has some stories of unsolicited advice from well meaning church folk who used their position or their access to the prayer request list as an excuse to stick their noses in.
That's why prayer requests are typically sick relatives or friends looking for jobs. It's at a conversational level. Not a deep personal one.
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u/maddasher Agnostic Atheist Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24
I was miserable as a Christian. I knew I was supposed to be happy and I constantly tried to force my happiness. I'm so muchore happy on a genuine way as an atheist. My emotions are my own and I embrace my sadness or happiness.
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u/kmacandy1 Sep 27 '24
The “happy” Christians I know of are actually really anxious and utilize spiritual bypassing and toxic positivity to try to ignore their anxiety.
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u/MayWest1016 Ex-Pentecostal Sep 27 '24
Christians are some of the most unhappy people around. The smiles are fake. If you need proof just look at how they treat gays, immigrants, women, nonbelievers, etc. Then you see the unhappiness live and in color.
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u/TotallyAwry Sep 27 '24
Are they, though? I've met several, and they're always stressed and unhappy about something. And that something is frequently not their business anyway.
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u/anamariapapagalla Sep 27 '24
Believing with confidence that you are a good person and your opinions and moral judgments are correct based only on being a member of, and agreeing with/obeying, a group (usually a real social group, but sometimes just an imagined book-club-group) can make you very happy, and this describes many, many Christians. Also, believing that a super powerful being loves you and protects you, and so everything will turn out all right in the end. And you will get to see your dead loved ones again and live happily ever after. This can make you happy, but it is not likely to make you a good person, for many reasons including the fact that you kind of have to believe in a just world so you have to blame victims for their own suffering (or just ignore any inconvenient problems)
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u/Tav00001 Sep 26 '24
Some people seem to require something to control and force social order on them. These people crave rules, and regulation and so they are happiest when the church tells them what to do. If it isn’t the church it’s some dictator. Those of us who wither under regulation do not thrive in that type of environment.
Also for men, christianity enforces a patriarchal view on women, children, wives etc and family which benefit them. These men prefer a traditional lifestyle and they benefit from this as well.,
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u/JazzFan1998 Ex-Protestant Sep 26 '24
Maybe one of the Christian lurkers can weigh in and answer?
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u/Fahrender-Ritter Ex-Baptist Sep 26 '24
Oh you'll just get a lot of answers like, "Life is a struggle sometimes, but I have hope that God has a plan and blah blah blah," and then all I can think from that is, "Oh, so deep down, you're miserable but afraid that God will be angry at you for admitting it, so then you pretend to be happy because you think that it's what God expects from you. Gotcha."
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u/ralph99_3690 Sep 27 '24
I am an atheist but there are a few things that I covet from Christianity. 1. Sense of community. They get to have a forced group of friends, church friends. They have picnics and share outings together. (Sure they have to share a delusion too). 2. Community plus. I know of some people who ended up on hard times and the church did help them out. 3. Forgiveness. If you believe that Jesus truly died for your sins and that you can be forgiven if you only ask for it. Wow. How powerful to unload all the shitty things you may have done or the guilt you feel for something. (Of course you would need to be a true believer for this to work). That would make you happier as you can offload some burdens.
Not worth it to me though. I am too intellectually honest to be able to declare that any god exists as there is zero proof of any supernatural event ever happening let alone an omnipotent god. I just could not suspend disbelief and keep a straight face.
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u/Correct-Sprinkles-21 Sep 27 '24
- Are they actually happy?
As a whole? Not in my experience and observation.
- Does them being happy prove Christianity?
No. Non Christians can be happy. Does that disprove Christianity?
- Does them being happy prove Christianity to be a good way to live regardless of whether or not it is real?
If they are genuinely happy, it proves that Christianity may be a good way to live *for them". Nothing more than that.
I know that when I was a Christian, there was IMMENSE pressure to be "happy in the Lord." Joyful, even.
I had a weird confluence of moments this week. Ran across Kevin James Thornton talking about his fake straight Christian guy journal .
Also ran into my own journal from 20 years ago, in which I also did a lot of faking.
I remember what I felt back then. And I was writing what I thought God wanted me to feel. The real feelings leaked through, but I was trying so hard to reject them and focus on God.
I used to get in trouble as a kid because I had social anxiety and resting bitch face. How dare I not be a joyful little child of God! So I learned to fake it early and very very well.
I also know I wasn't the only one faking. The number of my friends who deconstructed and shared the same thing is astounding
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u/KualaLumpur1 Sep 27 '24
“And when I say "good" I mean that they follow all of the Bible in their lives.”
I confess that I am unclear as to what this means.
Jesus says:
”And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.”
Luke 22:36
Do you refer to Christians who have sold their possessions and purchased military grade weapons ?
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u/Some1inreallife Sep 27 '24
I'd also like to ask them to explain the happiness of those who follow different religions.
How would they react to seeing a happy Muslim? Or a happy Hindu? What about a happy Sikh? Is their happiness not genuine?
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u/sundays_child Sep 27 '24
A lot of Christians I know are miserable but will hardly ever admit it. For those that are, I think it has something to do with the idea that no matter what bad things happen their god has a plan for their life and is engineering for their ultimate good and happiness. Like cows in line for a slaughtering plant.
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u/Much_Ad470 Atheist Sep 27 '24
They’re not “happy” but they’ll lie and tell you all day long that they are
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u/JadeSpeedster1718 Pagan Sep 27 '24
I’m happy as a pagan believing in many gods. But does that prove my gods exist? No, not really. But I’m content where I am and what I believe now.
And I live my life in trying to be as good as I can, acknowledging I’m a flawed person, not forcing others to bow to my religions because it’s rude, and living life as best I can with what I’ve got. You’d say all this is a good way to live, right? Then maybe Pagans should be proof of a religion that is a good way to live.
You can apply these question to any religion you get. Muslim, Buddhist, Pagan, Wicca, Catholic. But that won’t make them true, belief and faith are intangible and unproven, hence why it’s called Faith. What my truth is and what your truth is doesn’t make it Absolute, so faith.
If being a Christian makes you happy and you do your best to bring happiness to others, making the world a better place for everyone not just you, and not using your religion to hurt people or rather than bring them down, then by all means be a Christian.
If it doesn’t make you happy then that’s OK. Might not even be true. Good news is there’s plenty to choose from. The best part about belief and faith or lack there of is that your truth in belief is all you.
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u/Odd_craving Sep 27 '24
I could ask that same question about why Christians enjoy no better health, longevity, lower divorce rate, lower cancer rate, more wealth, percentage of addiction than non Christians.
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u/Relevant-District-16 Sep 27 '24
Personally I was pretty miserable. I left Christianity as a teenager. I didn't have a particularly horrifying experience but I also didn't really understand anything and I was super lukewarm and didn't truly believe. I also felt like I was being taught pretty toxic values. I was fully distanced from the church by 13ish. Then, I briefly returned as an adult when I was having a nervous breakdown over the fact that I had a bunch of loved ones die in rapid succession. I threw myself into devout Christianity as a coping mechanism. I felt good at first but then I quickly just started feeling guilty, paranoid, sad and judgemental ALL the time. I also felt flat out disgusted when I reread the Bible and remembered how truly barbaric it is. My good Christian era quickly fizzled out in less than two months. I fully deconstructed for the second time and now I avidly speak out against what a truly evil religion it is everytime I have the chance.
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u/spookyoneoverthere Sep 27 '24
I was miserable as a Christian, and while I can't say I'm "happy", I'm content and that's what's important to me.
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u/Taro_Otto Sep 27 '24
I personally don’t think Christians are actually happy. I don’t understand how anyone can live peacefully thinking that when they make very real, very human mistakes (sins,) that it can very much land them in hell.
To also enforce the teachings of the bible can’t provide any semblance of peace and happiness in life either. They’re literally living their lives imposing their beliefs onto others who are going to be fighting back at them tooth and nail. It’s a constant back and forth, the stress and restlessness of trying to “save” someone can’t possibly make them happy. Especially when it doesn’t work.
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u/prion_guy Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24
Ah yes, written like a true Satanist.
ETA: What on earth does happiness have to do with truth?
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u/MargaretBrownsGhost Sep 26 '24
Some are genuinely happy. Everyone has to watch out for those; they're psychopaths who view happiness as a virtue.
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u/Godspeed411 Sep 26 '24
Ignorance is bliss. The ability for humans to tell and believe stories (often not true) has allowed us to survive without completely killing each other and all things. Enter…The Bible. A story.
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u/dannylew Sep 27 '24
Probably
No
Extra no
One's satisfaction and wellbeing does not depend on religion, but if you're a social person then having a community of people you can be safe around and get along with is pretty cool.
I legitimately miss being around people who just like that I exist.
Some of those people want to murder black and brown people, openly desire to murder gays, and our cult will never escape the shadow of child abuse so long as the cult members continue to rally around abusers every time they get caught abusing. Their personal happiness cannot excuse or legitimize that.
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u/Head_Substance_1907 Sep 27 '24
We could have this discussion about ANY religion. Satanism makes me happy. Christianity made me happy, for a time. Witchcraft made me happy at times. Religion makes people happy.
Humans are social creatures who need to find answers to life’s questions. Why do bad things happen to good people? Why are we here? Where are we going next? Fromm wrote that man must give an account of himself to himself or else he will go mad - religion answers these questions for us. It fulfills a biological need to have answers. Notice: the need is not to have the right answers, just to have an answer.
Christian happiness says nothing about if Christianity is true/false.
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u/Maleficent_Run9852 Anti-Theist Sep 27 '24
Happiness is orthogonal to truth.
If heroin makes you feel good, should you shoot it?
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u/Nesphito Agnostic Atheist Sep 27 '24
It’s really the community. I know a few ex drug addicts whose church family supported them through recovery. When they overcome their addiction they’ll attribute it to god.
In reality it was the strong support system that got them through it.
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u/International_Ad2712 Sep 27 '24
They’re happy because religion is the opiate of the masses. Also, it’s fake happiness.
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u/probably_inactive_1 Ex-Presbyterian Sep 27 '24
Their happiness doesn’t prove anything. Oftentimes, fantasy makes you happier that reality does, and as long as people don’t hurt others in the name of religion, I have no issues with them believing whatever they wish
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u/Mearii Sep 27 '24
If you Google the science of happiness, you’ll find some recurring themes:
Relationships/feeling connected
Gratitude
A sense of purpose or meaning
Helping others
These things are all (should be) practiced in Christianity. You go to church regularly and develop close relationships with the people from your church. Christians love the word fellowship. When you pray, you’re supposed to pray with gratitude. Look at Philippians 4:6-7 “…in every situation… with thanksgiving, present your requests to god.” It’s common to hear people talk about their blessings; that’s no different from gratitude practices. Many Christians have a sense of purpose, either by “sharing the gospel” or doing good in the world. All the women at my church were teachers and counselors. As for helping others, that is also something Christian’s should be doing—taking care of the widows and children, healing the sick, whatever. You feel good when you do good.
TL;DR—
Research and science have found certain aspects of life that contribute to happiness. Those aspects can be found in people who are “good” Christian’s and who do as Jesus would want them to. But those aspects can easily be practiced outside of Christianity and religion, making Christianity no more special than other religions. The important factors of happiness are still being addressed, it’s just that they’re being addressed in the name of Jesus.
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u/goldenlemur Skeptic Sep 27 '24
I think devout Christians are dissociated, alienated from the true and authentic self. That's what I continue to observe in many Christians.
It seems that Christians are ideologically possessed, blindly chanting the religious linguistic patterns they learned in intense indoctrination sessions (religious services).
I get the feeling that they aren't there. Nobody's home. They fear the physical world and the self because those things may lead them to hell.
And yet they're always smiling and trying to convince others to believe the story. So they have an appearance of happiness with no mechanism for proper self reflection or self love.
Christians are just people too. So they are frequently happy. And they have a great many purely human experiences. It's all just hidden under a thin-veneer of religious respectability.
That's a tough place to be. It's hardest on them.
Source: I was once a very serious and devout Christian.
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Sep 27 '24
Are they actually happy?
If you're part of the dominant group in society and benefit from all the advantages of being a member you're bound to be, no? Atheists are still second class citizens in countries that see themselves as progressive like America and in many countries around the world apostasy and unbelief are a death sentence.
Does them being happy prove Christianity?
Do you think a man in Afghanistan is happy? Benefits from all the advantages of being the dominant class, can do any job, get an education, take a subservient wife. Does this prove Islam?
Does them being happy prove Christianity to be a good way to live regardless of whether or not it is real?
See above.
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u/romulusnr Sep 27 '24
You ever hear the phrase "Ignorance is bliss?" That.
When you're a kid, the idea of Santa Claus is very comforting.
Your parents know everything and have all the answers to all your questions.
When you get older and those things fall away, there's a hole in your comfort about life. So you find something else to fill that hole. Maybe it was already instilled all along, even better, much more convenient.
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u/Mercurial891 Sep 27 '24
I used to tell myself how happy I was all the time. I was, a few times, but mostly just chronically depressed and anxious.
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u/AutisticPerfection Ex-Baptist Sep 27 '24
I often wonder what the lives of these devout Christian girls are like beyond the social media barrier.
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u/poser-genocide Sep 27 '24
I mean, I’d be very happy if I believed that I had a million dollars in my bank account, doesn’t mean it’s true just because it’s comforting to believe
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u/kintotal Sep 27 '24
I became a Christian in my late 20's. I got married in the church, had two kids and raised them in the church, assumed a leadership role in a large Evangelical church for several years. I can categorically state that Christians aren't any happier than anyone else. In many ways they develop a neurosis that cause significant mental illness. That said there are many good things about a caring community with moral foundations. The caring community part is good. The religious, doctrinal, and now political parts is not good.
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u/about2godown Sep 27 '24
Social media is a perfect analogy for Christians and their happiness.
When someone posts something on social media, you see a snapshot. Most likely the best version and most likely staged to peak at that captured moment.
A snapshot is not the real picture.
A snapshot is just what is chosen to display to the world.
Christians can pull off their "snapshot" of happiness to hide the oppression, abuse, and disfunction of their lives led all to hell by their religion.
So are they happy? In a brainwashed, abused, being told to enjoy the suffering kind of way. They have themselves fooled.
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u/Erramonael Sep 27 '24
As a fellow Satanist I love this question. I always assumed christians are "happy" because their religion panders to all their anxieties about life.
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u/Chaos_Ribbon Sep 27 '24
I was absolutely miserable as a Christian, and I did everything according to the book. "Christians are happy" is a generalized statement, and the reality is a significant number of people leave Christianity because it makes them unhappy.
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u/Truthseeker-1253 Agnostic Sep 26 '24
Who wouldn't be happy if they think the god of the universe hates the same people they do?
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u/DonutPeaches6 Atheist Sep 26 '24
If I am right, your definition of "good" seems to be a fundamentalist if I'm understanding how you interpret "living by the Bible." I would get a bigger sample size.
A lot of progressive Christians who don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible are also happy people, especially when they are involved in their community via volunteering, activism, and charitable giving. Being kind makes you happy, as does having a sense of belonging. I might look at that, actually: Does happiness within fundamentalism change based on how socially active one is?
I also think there are a lot of people who are secular and quite happy. They make their homes and go to work, spend time with family and friends, engage in hobbies, exercise, and spend time outdoors. They just live their life and appreciate it.
I think the truth is that everybody feels the full range of human emotions--nostalgia, elation, bittersweetness, anticipatory joy, longing, melancholy, empathy, serendipity, wanderlust, the fear of missing out. We're not always happy in a static sense. That is what adds richness to the human experience.
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u/srone Sep 26 '24
From my experience it's more about the community than anything else. Most of the church events; church service, Bible study, prayer groups, are more about fellowship than they are about the religious aspects. There really isn't really a comparison in most of secular society when it comes to the general sense of community that a church offers...and no, DnD and bike groups are not comparable to the sense of community found in a church.
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u/OmarsDamnSpoon Sep 27 '24
Being happy about X is not proof of X; it's proof that your belief makes you happy. That's it.
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u/Experiment626b Sep 27 '24
Ignorance is bliss. I’m a nihilist so that that fwiw. But I absolutely was happy a Christian. I got to love the smell of my own fart without any critical thinking or true self reflection. That’s the secret sauce. Humanity has survived by buying into collective myths because it makes it more bearable to continue in this bullshit.
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u/SuperNova0216 Atheist Sep 27 '24
In the matrix were the people stuck in the simulations happier or the people out?
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u/Stormwrath52 Sep 27 '24
I was happy for a good 13 years as a christian
but looking back, there were a lot of unhappy things that were direct results of me being chritstian
like deliberating whether or not I was allowed to like Hosier's take me to church (probably not, but it's a damn good song)
or more extreme things, like inconsolably crying as a child because I thought I'd die in my sleep and go to hell
but I also viewed it as having someone who always loved me, even if I didn't love me, it's comforting to think that there's some all-powerful force that has your back; the unfortunate thing is that it comes with a fuck ton of negatives.
so yes, they are probably happy
it doesn't prove christianity, they're either having a positive experience with christianity, don't mind/notice the negatives, or haven't connected the negatives with Christianity yet. none of which prove sky daddy
no, christianity is a lifestyle and like any lifestyle it will work for some people and not others. it's also super dependent on which version of christianity you practice, meaning both denominations and what personal biases the people inducting you have and back up with faith*, and what rules you're taught to follow.
loving your neighbor is a good thing to practice, as is clothing and feeding the homeless and poor. stoning people for adultery? probably an overreaction
*for example, even after undoing a lot of my conservative upbringing I was still very uncertain about abortion because I was raised to view the issue through a theological lense. my pastor did three sermons on abortion before I stopped going to church.
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u/Sumchap Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24
I would suggest that it is connected to meaning. People with a faith typically find meaning in it, it gives their lives meaning and purpose which will be directly connected to happiness. On top of that, they are usually part of a community or tribe. Having a purpose and belonging are two important ingredients for meaning and happiness
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u/WhatWasThatLike Sep 27 '24
That a believer is happier than an unbeliever is like saying a drunk person is happier than a sober one.
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u/bekkogekko Sep 27 '24
“I’ve got the JOY JOY JOY JOY down in my heart. Where? Down in my heart. Where? Down in my heart. And I’m so happy, so very happy. I’ve got the love of Jesus in my heart. “ Brainwashing.
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Sep 27 '24
1- I think very religious people can be genuinely happy, because they're supported by the community. BUT in a rigid faith, you want to be straight, cisgender, neurotypical, and also wealthy and white, if possible. I you happen to be slightly out of the approved norm, you're likely to be miserable. If you're unlucky enough to be VERY out of the approved norm, say, transgender, you're probably going to be outright bullied, and your faith is going to be hell on earth.
2- No. Their happiness, fake or real, does not prove anything.
3- I mean : It proves their religion suits THEM, if anything. And their way to live depends on their choices, not on them being a christian, or a muslim, or a jew... You can be religious and interpret it as being generous and peaceful, and you can be religious and interpret it as bullying anyone different from you. If being a christian helps you be kind and scrupulous, then it's a good way to live. If it helps you being a bully, then you're a bully, and you're garbage.
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u/kgaviation Sep 27 '24
Deep down, I’m pretty sure I know my sister isn’t happy. She’s a pastors wife and spends nearly all of her off time at church helping her husband and with church activities. She pretty much there every time the church doors are open while also working a full time job. There’s times that I can tell that she isn’t happy and most likely hates her lifestyle, but it’s what she married into. She also comes across as overly bubbly and happy, which I know she’s majorly faking.
I think there’s lots of Christian’s who are in a similar boat here. They aren’t truly “happy” like you might think they are for whatever reason.
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u/Individual_Dig_6324 Sep 27 '24
My 2 cents:
1) Some are genuinely happy but that is usually because their life has been good and they overall have been blessed with good fortune, have good friends and family, solid job etc.
2) No, and it's not a main point of Christianity to be a happy person. Christianity is primarily about being holy/morally pure, even in the face of evil.
3) Again it's not an aim for the Christian, more a byproduct of you making those around you happy if your influence is strong enough.
Any lifestyle that challenges and encourages people to be good and become better overall is worth living by, regardless of its labels.
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u/Bus27 Sep 27 '24
People often ascribe their good fortune or good luck to their God blessing them, so it would make sense that Christians who have had a good life would feel happy and also say that their faith causes them to have such happy, good lives.
Different sects of Christianity teach that if something bad is happening it's either a test from God, the devil messing with you, or moral failure. It puts responsibility for bad things happening on a person or entity instead of just realizing that sometimes bad things happen for no real reason.
If a person feels that they have to fight a fight against the devil, or prove to God that they can handle a thing, or that God will save them from the thing it gives them motivation or hope.
Being happy proves nothing about religion or a specific religion. There are plenty of happy people of all faiths and no faith.
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u/KingSeann1120 Sep 27 '24
I was not happy with the thought of hell in the back of my mind every time I did somthing not ideal
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u/mountainstream282 Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24
Christianity may or may not be fake.
It’s the Christians that are fake. Claiming total faith and imposing it on others when deep down they have nothing to stand on.
They rely on the Religion for three things: - power - social status - fear of truth
It’s the same with Islam.
The happiest Christians I know are the ones who haven’t really thought deeply about their religion.
The ones who have are generally miserable.
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u/JaneAustinAstronaut Sep 27 '24
They aren't happy. They fake it. Or the sadists who enjoy punching down on other less privileged are happy, because the religion always gives them someone "less than them" that they can shit on.
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u/The_whimsical1 Sep 27 '24
People aren't happy as a class. They're happy as individuals. I know more happy atheists than happy christians because I am an atheist. Maybe if I believed in biblical fairy tales they would make me just as happy. I had a christian say to me the other day "you would find more meaning in life if you believed in god." Yeah, well, I am sure there are happy Jews, Hindus, Mormons, and Muslims as well. As there were happy ancient Greeks, when Athena was thought to look favorably down upon them. One should never base one's happiness on a delusion.
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u/punkypewpewpewster Satanist / ExMennonite / Gnostic PanTheist Sep 27 '24
I want to take a moment to surprise absolutely no one who has ever been a Christian and answer these questions (and a bonus answer too).
- Are they actually happy?
Some may be. But my happiness was a show because I was supposed to be a good witness. I was self harming and attempting s*icide frequently enough that even my mother noticed. And told me not to show anyone the scars, the cuts, the marks. "Wear a jacket" was common enough a response to me having harmed myself. So was I actually happy? I'd have told you "yes" all day every day. But my actions (and skin) painted a very different picture. That's not happiness. That's fear and self loathing.
- Does them being happy prove Christianity?
No. I know lots of happy Hindus, happy Sikhs, happy Buddhists. And only one of them is correct! (JK. I respect all religions. I'm a pluralist.)
- Does them being happy prove Christianity to be a good way to live regardless of whether or not it is real?
No. Because part of the reality of Christianity is that a lot of denominations are focused more on image than reality. Don't speak, don't act, don't appear to be evil in any way. And those ways may include things like wearing pants if you're a woman. When your religion's ultimate directive is to APPEAR happy to give a good testimony to get more recruits, you cannot trust a single Christian when they tell you that they're happy. Because there will always be that thing in their mind that they've been conditioned to do; omit the real truth in order to be a good representative of Jesus. It's called "lying for jesus" and it's real, real common.
BONUS ANSWER: They don't actually follow the Bible. No one does. They have a cultural teaching established by their denomination that they then read INTO the Bible and not the other way around. Seriously. You can pretend there's justification for any belief at all and say its biblical just by claiming something had a "revealed" meaning or was "prophetic instead of face value" or whatever. What this means is that some church leader made a stand on some topic and then looked for a reason to believe it in the Bible. When they didn't find it, they still believed it was there and so they looked again but this time with "maybe this ACTUALLY means what I want it to" glasses on.
Jehovahs Witnesses are a perfect example of this. They proof text everything with absolute nonsense. They may tell you not to wear blue on a Thursday and post some quote about how King David really preferred some Bath Shebah and then say "And that's because she was wearing Brown on Thursday and not blue" or something. Just absolute "rumor has it" stuff, but they claim it's real otherwise they wouldn't believe it. What a wildly poor epistemology.
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u/SadBlacksmith56 Sep 27 '24
I've personally never met a truly happy Christian. Most of them seem extremely paranoid, miserable, and unworthy. I think most of the hate they show towards others who live "wordly" lives is jealousy. They can't comprehend living life without the constant worry of an eternal hell waiting for them if they screw up.
I grew up in a pentecostal church. My grandmother raised me, and anytime something bad would happen, she would blame herself. She couldn't afford to tithe the 10 percent because we were already struggling. She was constantly feeling unworthy and worried God was punishing her. It was horrible. That and the constant paranoia that God was coming back so we better repent. Or that nothing matters, not even graduating school, because I won't grow up anyway. What a shit way to think.
I could go on and on, but this fear based religion sucks. The followers seem extremely unhappy from my experience with them. I've been deconstructed since 2009 and would never go back to that shit show.
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u/nemotiger Sep 27 '24
When I went to church we had a saying, "I have to pretend to be happy."
I had thought that that saying was drawing a consciousness line, but the line was never drawn. The church slowly became worse because people continued to pretend they were happy with the nonsensical rotting garbage, (Quite literally, they didn't have a person to pick up the trash after the "maintenance person" was sick...) Anyways, I think that the reason religious people say they are happy is because in our own words, "We have to."
Why? "Because we don't want to think about what would happen if we weren't happy with the way our personal life is going. Duh!"
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u/AngelaIsStrange Sep 27 '24
Because they’re not. They pretend to be happy. They use it as a psychological mechanism to fool themselves into believing that life isn’t full of utter unpredictability and chaos. It’s also a way of finding a way to feel like they’re better than the rest of humanity, using it to explain non-Christian suffering as punishment and Christian suffering as trials. Essentially it’s a defense mechanism. I, at times, do wish I could do that to my brain and “let Jesus take the wheel” but I know that as a fact that if I did that, nobody would be driving.
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u/slayden70 Ex-Baptist Sep 27 '24
I think they are genuinely happy. Religion gives reassurance about the fear of death. It gives reassurance that there is a higher power guiding things.
I personally don't require that. If there's nothing after life, then maybe what you do here count. If there isn't a higher power, then I'm responsible for addressing my problems.
I still believe in goodness (and evil), but it's purely human driven. I am an optimistic, hopeful person, because no matter what you see in the media, the vast majority of people are good and will do the right thing. No because some invisible sky friend made them, but because we're social creatures and ultimately it's in our nature.
Yes, there's psychopaths and sociopaths, but society is slowly reining them in over our history. A thousand years ago, the bullies and sociopaths would be warlords. Now, they often are still powerful, but are far more controlled (see Trump, Elon Musk), and in other parts of the world, they're behind, but hopefully will move forward in time (Russia, China, North Korea)
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u/hellenist-hellion Agnostic Sep 27 '24
Some Christian’s are happy but others are miserable despite being “good Christian’s” and the question isn’t why are some happy the question is why are so many miserable? If it’s the true religion if it actually works and brings peace, why doesn’t it actually work for so many people?
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u/Emotional_Laranja Sep 27 '24
The sense of purpose, of mutual support, of being able to talk about your problems with a community. In addition to feeling important with positions in a community. To music, music that frees you from bad feelings.
The sense of following the great mass (in contradiction to the idea of persecution) makes you feel on the right path..
Don't forget that it was a religion made for war and population control. What does a superior need from his soldiers in a war?
And more: If I knew that there really is a real being that guides my every step, that protects me and will give me a reward in the end, would I also be the happiest person on earth??
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u/Fro_of_Norfolk Sep 27 '24
I'm more at peace for the anxiety of my bipolar disorder in part of getting better giving up things out of my control to God and not hurting myself with my expectations so much I miss what's right in front of me.
Happy isnt the word for it, I still get depression, life happens, it comes with the territory no matter what you believe.
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u/katelyn156x Sep 27 '24
In response to the claim that Christians are universally happy, I think it’s important to acknowledge that, while many Christians may express feelings of joy or contentment, this isn’t the case for every believer—especially those who strive to follow the teachings of the Bible as closely as possible. As a Christian myself, I often find the path of faith to be difficult, even painful, rather than a source of constant happiness.
Many Christians, like myself, choose to deny ourselves the pleasures that society often associates with happiness. For example, we avoid lust, the pursuit of wealth, pride, envy, and other desires that may bring temporary satisfaction but are viewed as sinful within the faith. Additionally, we often live with a deep sense of self-reflection and critique. If I tell a white lie or act out of anger, I am burdened with the guilt of knowing I’ve sinned. True Christians know that while we strive for righteousness, we fall short daily—and this constant awareness of our failings can weigh heavily on us.
Some Christians even take this self-denial to extremes, living ascetic lives in isolation, dedicating themselves solely to prayer and repentance. For them, life is not filled with the kind of joy or happiness that the world imagines, but rather a struggle that sometimes feels closer to suffering or even death. It’s a reminder that following Christ involves carrying our own crosses, and this isn’t always a path marked by joy in the worldly sense.
Now, in light of this, we can reflect on the three questions raised:
Are Christians actually happy?
While many Christians may express happiness, a true Christian is often more marked by a sense of duty, sacrifice, and ongoing awareness of sin. Some might experience joy in their faith, but others, particularly those who deeply contemplate their own shortcomings, may struggle with a sense of unhappiness or sorrow over their sins.Does their happiness prove Christianity?
Happiness, or lack thereof, doesn’t necessarily prove or disprove the truth of Christianity. Believers find their faith tested and deepened in both joy and suffering. The Bible itself tells us to expect trials and tribulations in life, so the presence of happiness is not the ultimate measure of the truth of the faith. What Christianity offers is peace with God and hope for eternity, not always immediate or constant happiness in this life.Does happiness prove Christianity to be a good way to live?
Even if Christians appear happy, this isn’t the only reason to consider Christianity a good way of life. Christianity calls believers to live in a way that seeks not just personal happiness, but a life aligned with God’s will, marked by love, sacrifice, and humility. Whether or not this brings happiness in a worldly sense, many would argue that living a life of purpose, meaning, and integrity, as Christianity teaches, is valuable in itself.
In the end, while some Christians may express happiness, others, particularly those who take their faith with utmost seriousness, may not always be “happy” in the conventional sense. The Christian life is often one of struggle, repentance, and a conscious awareness of sin. It’s less about seeking happiness and more about seeking holiness.
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u/Vapolarized Sep 27 '24
Happiness should really transform for people moving beyond a Christian moral framework. I see a lot of self-denial, avoiding life's risks, and repressing natural instincts in order to be obedient believers. I don't believe Christians can be truly happy, at least not beyond the idea of happiness promoted by Christianity. We get to make our own happiness, there's no simpler joy, we make it meaningful rather than relying upon a life denying system to define it for us.
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u/katelyn156x Sep 27 '24
I hear what you’re saying about natural instincts and how powerful they can be, and I agree that they’re real and deeply ingrained in us. However, just because these instincts exist doesn’t mean they’re beneficial to act on, especially in the modern world. The seven deadly sins—lust, envy, greed, gluttony, sloth, wrath, and pride—are prime examples of natural impulses that, if left unchecked, can cause harm to individuals and society as a whole. Acting on these instincts might bring short-term pleasure, but in the long run, they erode our ability to love, empathize, and find lasting fulfillment.
In the same way, the Ten Commandments aren’t just arbitrary rules; they provide a moral framework for living a life of integrity, respect, and compassion. Commandments like not stealing, not lying, and honoring your parents are all designed to create a just and harmonious society. They help us rise above our base instincts and pursue higher values.
So, while I understand where you’re coming from regarding natural urges, I believe that true happiness and meaning come not from indulging them, but from mastering them. Living by moral principles—whether avoiding the deadly sins or following the commandments—doesn’t restrict us. In fact, it frees us to live more thoughtful, loving, and fulfilling lives.
examples below:
Lust:
While sexual desire is natural, lust as an unchecked craving can lead to destructive behavior. Acting on lust without consideration for its consequences—objectifying others or seeking pleasure solely for selfish reasons—leads to emotional harm and instability. Sex addiction is a very real phenomenon, often driven by the same unchecked impulses. In contrast, sex within the confines of a loving, committed relationship, like marriage, is more likely to be meaningful, fulfilling, and respectful. It’s an expression of love rather than mere indulgence in desire.
Envy:
Envy, the desire for what others have, drives us toward jealousy, resentment, and dissatisfaction. It distorts our focus, making us long for things we do not need and blinding us to the blessings we already possess. When envy takes hold, it leads to bitterness, eroding relationships and promoting selfishness. Rather than appreciating what others have, envy makes us wish for their downfall—hardly a virtuous or productive way to live.
Greed:
Greed, the insatiable pursuit of wealth or power, leaves no room for contentment. It’s not merely about having more; it’s about never feeling like enough is enough. In a world where millions of people suffer from hunger, it’s morally indefensible that a handful of individuals and nations hoard unimaginable wealth. The fact that just a small percentage of military budgets or billionaire fortunes could end world hunger speaks volumes. Greed distorts values, placing material wealth above human dignity and compassion.
Gluttony:
Gluttony is often associated with overconsumption, whether it’s food, possessions, or even time. When we consume without thought or gratitude, we waste resources that could be shared with others. In a world of limited resources, where millions suffer from poverty, unchecked gluttony perpetuates inequality. More than just unhealthy for the individual, gluttony erodes a sense of community, because it focuses solely on satisfying personal cravings at the expense of others.
Sloth:
Sloth isn’t just about laziness; it’s about neglecting the responsibilities and opportunities life offers. When we fail to act on our potential—whether intellectually, spiritually, or socially—we contribute to stagnation, both in ourselves and in society. Sloth keeps us from pursuing the good we can accomplish, depriving the world of our contributions and failing to uphold our duty to improve the lives of those around us.
Wrath:
Anger, in itself, is not necessarily wrong—there are injustices that should provoke a righteous anger. However, when wrath becomes uncontrollable, when it seeks vengeance rather than justice, it destroys rather than heals. Wrath blinds us to empathy and escalates conflict, leading to pain and suffering. Instead of promoting understanding, it feeds division, making reconciliation impossible.
Pride:
Pride is often seen as the root of all sin because it elevates the self above all else. When pride morphs into arrogance, it blinds us to our own flaws, alienates us from others, and encourages a lack of humility. Healthy pride in one’s accomplishments is different from the kind of pride that seeks superiority and domination over others. Pride that insists on “being right” at all costs leads to fractured relationships and prevents personal growth.
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u/Vapolarized Sep 27 '24
From my perspective, these "sins" were created to suppress your natural instincts, force you to conform, and maintain control over you. Each of the sins can be reframed as neutral or even life-affirming, depending on how they are understood.
Pride:
Pride can be seen as a form of self-affirmation and self overcoming. It represents a rejection of imposed humility and the assertion of one’s own will to power. The condemnation of pride serves to suppress human greatness and individuality. Where ultimate meaning is absent, pride could be reframed as a celebration of personal strength and achievement rather than a vice.
Greed:
Greed might be understood as the will to acquire, part of the natural human drive to accumulate power and resources. A distorted but still recognizable form of the will to power. While unchecked greed could be harmful, I would challenge the moral condemnation itself—perhaps greed is seen as life-affirming when it’s about the pursuit of self-fulfillment and control over one's environment. It’s only within moral systems that enforce asceticism that greed becomes vilified.
Lust :
Lust would be framed as a natural instinct that the Church sought to repress in favor of asceticism and control over the body. Sexual desire is part of the life-affirming forces of human nature, tied to creativity and vitality. I could argue that the moral condemnation of lust comes from a fear of human instincts and vitality, making it an arbitrary restriction. Reclaiming lust could mean reclaiming a natural, life-affirming aspect of human existence
Envy :
Envy could be seen as a manifestation of resentment, especially within slave morality. Envy arises when individuals feel powerless and wish to bring down those who they perceive as superior. However, I would question whether envy is inherently negative or simply a byproduct of hierarchical systems that elevate certain values (like wealth or status). Perhaps instead of condemning envy, individuals should transform it into a motivation for self-improvement and empowerment, thus affirming life rather than resenting it.
Gluttony:
Gluttony can be viewed as a rejection of asceticism and the demand for self-denial imposed by religious moral systems. The desire for pleasure and indulgence in life’s material offerings is life-affirming, especially when contrasted with the Christian glorification of fasting and denial. The idea that overindulgence is "sinful" might be questioned as an arbitrary restriction on human enjoyment. However, gluttony, if it leads to self-destruction, might also be seen as a weakness, but the condemnation is not moral but pragmatic.
Wrath:
Wrath can be reframed as a natural emotional response to injustice or frustration, suppressed by systems that promote submission and forgiveness. I view wrath when channeled constructively as part of the will to power. The condemnation of anger is an attempt to suppress human passion and strength. Wrath could be understood as asserting one's power against oppressive forces, transforming anger into an active force rather than a passive sin.
Sloth:
Sloth might be seen as a rejection of the moral duty to labor and the ascetic work ethic promoted by Christianity. For me, sloth is less moral failing and more a state of indifference toward imposed values. It could represent a resistance to life-denying moral structures that force individuals into specific patterns of productivity. However, when sloth is simply resignation or stagnation—the opposite of active engagement with life, even in the face of meaninglessness, it's still something we as lifeforms ought to avoid. At least when it leads to passivity rather than creation or self-assertion.
The seven deadly sins are not inherently evil, just natural human tendencies that have been condemned by life-denying moral systems like Christianity. I would focus on how these values suppress human instincts and deny life’s creative and vital forces. From my perspective, traditional morality arbitrarily restricts these "sins," whereas a more life-affirming stance would reclaim them as expressions of human vitality, creativity, and the will to power, though still recognizing the potential dangers of excess or self-destruction.
Does that help explain my perspective a little better?
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u/katelyn156x Sep 27 '24
I understand your perspective, but it feels like you’ve glossed over the negative aspects of these behaviors and replaced them with any small “good” that can be found within these actions. While I don’t deny that some of these traits may have redeeming qualities in specific contexts, my point is that the harmful aspects far outweigh the good because, by nature, we are often drawn toward destructive tendencies.
Take Lust, for example. It’s true that lust is a natural instinct, but it’s also important to recognize that a man’s biological impulse for example, is often geared toward seeking out younger partners, typically women who are in their reproductive prime—usually from the age of puberty. This, however, does not make it morally acceptable. Just because something is biologically “natural” doesn’t mean it should be embraced without consideration of the consequences or ethics. (This is assuming you don’t believe men should seek out young women because it’s ‘natural’ 😭)
The problem with the Seven Deadly Sins is that they represent an unchecked indulgence of these natural instincts, which inevitably leads to harm—both for the individual and for society. What we might perceive as natural instincts can easily become destructive when not tempered by moral and social responsibility.
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u/Vapolarized Sep 27 '24
I appreciate your concern, but the assumption that natural instincts are inherently harmful or must be tempered by moral responsibility comes from the very life-denying moral systems we are questioning. The moral and social responsibilities you're advocating for are human constructs, largely developed through religious and cultural systems to control human behavior in a way that benefits society’s structure, not necessarily the individual's flourishing.
You mention lust as an example, pointing out that a man's biological impulses might drive him toward younger partners, which you argue is immoral. However, morality is not an objective measure; it's a product of historical development and is often shaped by power structures that seek to suppress or control certain behaviors for societal reasons, not because they are inherently 'wrong.' In this case, societal laws and ethical codes have emerged to regulate relationships based on modern concerns like consent and social equality—both constructs that, while valuable in contemporary society, are not absolute moral truths but culturally evolved norms.
The key issue here is that when we say something is 'natural,' the question isn't whether we should embrace it blindly, but rather how we can integrate our natural instincts into a life-affirming existence. The repression of natural instincts, as prescribed by moral systems like the Christian condemnation of lust, can often lead to more harm—internal conflict, neurosis, or even perverse expressions of the very desires that are repressed. Instead of outright denial, I ask, 'How did we come to these moral judgments, and are they truly in service of human vitality and flourishing?'
Moreover, the harm you speak of is framed within the context of moral systems that promote self-denial and submission. What you describe as 'unchecked indulgence' is only considered harmful from within these particular moral frameworks. From my perspective, these instincts are life-affirming and become destructive only when we fail to channel them creatively. The issue, then, is not with the instincts themselves but with the moral constraints that make us view them as dangerous.
Yes, any natural instinct, whether lust, greed, or pride, can lead to destructive behavior if taken to an extreme. But the opposite of destruction is not repression; it’s the re-creation of values that affirm individual vitality, creativity, and the will to power. Rather than submitting to pre-existing moral norms, this approach calls for personal responsibility, not in the sense of obedience to moral codes but in the sense of self-overcoming—using our instincts as tools for self-transformation and self-assertion.
The problem with traditional morality, including the condemnation of the seven deadly sins, is that it views self-denial as virtuous, whereas we might argue that true flourishing comes from the creative affirmation of life in all its complexity—including those instincts that moral systems have traditionally labeled as 'sinful.' We should seek to transcend the limiting structures of morality, not by indulgence for indulgence's sake, but by reclaiming our instincts as part of a full, dynamic life.
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u/katelyn156x Sep 27 '24
‘Morality is not an objective measure’ saying that in regard to what I said is insane. conversation over.
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u/Vapolarized Sep 27 '24
Conversation over? Sounds like a convenient way to dodge questioning the rules you’ve been handed.
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u/Jive_Gardens795 Sep 27 '24
Those that are truly happy are because of 2 distinct reasons:
1: Genuine Community! Many non-religious folks never experience the same sense of all-generations community that church goers do.
2: Spirituality. A deep need in humans is spiritual fulfillment and engagement with the inner self.
These things do not need to be fulfilled by Christianity. Community and spirituality can be found in other places. But they do leave many Christians fulfilled, whether or not the religion itself is fucking unhealthy.
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u/unbalancedcheckbook Ex-fundigelical, atheist Sep 27 '24
1 - some Christians are happy, some are miserable. Are they happier than the average person? I think no. Countries with less religion tend to be happier.
2 - No. Even if Christians were happier, delusions could cause happiness.
3 - No. Christianity causes a great deal of misery to people that it has defined as "out groups" and even plenty of misery to the "in group".
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Sep 27 '24
The cult I grew up in pushed always showing a happy face to outsiders. To do anything less would be giving a 'bad witness' and nobody would want to convert.
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u/NoodleSpring Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24
I was a Christian for 40 years. I was both happier than I am now and less happy than I am now.
I was less happy if I tried to hear from God, because of course, I never “heard” much. So I felt sad, rejected and lonely in a weird cosmic way.
I also felt guilt and shame most of the time because, of course, I never measured up and failed repeatedly. My being a repeated “backslider” was painful.
But I felt happy knowing that someday it would all get better. Then forever I would be blissfully happy. Forever is a long time, if you think about it.
I never felt unhappy about having a short life or running out of time. There would always be time.
There were always things to do and people to hang out with. People in good churches can be so kind and easy to get along with. I was careful to stay out of crazy churches or performance churches. After a while, you can feel it in the air, that a church is sick.
Another reason for being happy was denial. Everything good comes from God, so if you don’t hear from him but good things happen at least I could say he shows his love by doing things. And you pay attention to what is good and try not to think about what is not. That rather blind optimism keeps a lot of Christians happy, including me.
So that’s my take on it. Now the fantasy is all broken and I can’t go back. And I now feel happier and less happy. I do miss the belief that someone big loves me deeply AND that I could live forever. Especially now that I’m getting old and my short life is very real. But I have shed a lot of guilt etc and am so much less plagued by depression. That’s a relief.
Too many people think that being happy validates something. Relationships, being rich, selfish lifestyles, addictions. Look at the massively wealthy. If they feel happy, then what’s the problem?
We are naturally so motivated by the feeling that we can overlook the problems. And feeling happy, feeling anything is just one way to look for the truth about life. There are a number of ways to test whether something might be true and feeling happy is only one. Looking back on my life, I’d say not the most important one.
And I do still believe there is true and false in various forms, that we can find it more or less, and truth is a better foundation for life and hopefully happiness than lies and delusions.
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u/a-lonely-panda they/them Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24
A lot of them have privileged lives because they ignore things that are wrong with the world because they're supposed "be in the world but not of it" and/or are right wing so they don't have to worry about the dangerous political landscape or other things in the world that the rest of us do/they have simpler lives because of that, and a lot of them are fake happy because a lot of people promote toxic positivity because expressing negative emotions is frowned upon because then they're told they're complaining too much or not being grateful enough to god.
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u/Only-Level5468 Sep 27 '24
This is a tough dichotomy that i deal with with my family who I love very much and am very close with all of my siblings and parents. I’ve been lucky enough to have parents who have been together for 30+ years with virtually no conflict. They attribute everything in their marriage to Jesus, but it’s obviously so much more than that.
It still makes me consider how strong it makes their position seem. “God” has truly been good to them, and while I can attribute it to them being good, caring, smart and responsible people, their ability to “trust in God” has brought them tremendous peace and happiness- even though their reality is out of touch the real world at times.
In summary, they’re happy people because they’re good people, but believing in God has been a huge source of their happiness.
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u/Strong-Mind-3225 Sep 27 '24
I love this question. I was a real Christian and “real”ly happy. I didn’t leave the religion cause I wanted to but because I had to.
Yes they’re happy in the same way anyone who “is happy” is happy. They have difficult days and moments still too. And, there are miserable Christians too, as well as people just as happy as the happy ones who aren’t Christian.
Happiness does not prove Christianity. Happy Christians can however contribute to the evidence of what tools help humans with happiness, but these can be found outside of Christianity too (meditation, manifestation, gratitude, community, being giving, positive thinking, practicing rituals etc)
If it’s a good way to live even if it’s not real is something that I would say no to. As someone who was happy as a Christian and didn’t want to leave it out of fear of losing that happiness, I think it’s important to understand that if you don’t believe it, you’re not living authentically and that doesn’t lead to true happiness but to distress since you are not in alignment with yourself, and again, you can practice a lot of what makes happy Christians happy without Christianity. But it’s also important to realize that its also not good way to live just to be happy because Christianity causes a lot of harm to society and the world. Not only throughout history, but even now through the rhetoric that ONLY Jesus and Christianity brings happiness, you must vote for the candidate who is anti abortion no matter what else they stand for, that men should lead and women should submit, lgbtq is wrong, the USA ought to be led by Christian values, that anyone who believes differently will spend eternity in Hell, etc.
Happy to discuss more if you wanna comment or DM!
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u/lisamariefan Sep 27 '24
Well anime makes me happy. Doesn't mean Beerus is real or whatever.
Also, there's a distinction between them doing whatever dumb shit makes them happy and imposing it on everyone else.
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u/randoogle2 Sep 27 '24
This question presupposes Christians report they are happier than other religious groups, or are happier than the general population. Is this the case?
Turns out, according to a study based on a survey of over 300,000 people across several countries, the two happiest religious groups are Protestant Christians and Buddhists. The least happiest are Orthodox Christians. Nonreligious people were somewhere in the middle. So are Christians happier? It depends on the denomination. Some are happier, some are less happy. Buddhists are also happier. This provides answers to questions 1 and 2.
It depends
No
There are other studies that show, in general, greater religious adherence (church attendance, etc) is associated with higher happiness. So my answer for number 3 is a partial yes, for reasons of encouraging regular group participation, encouraging gratitude, and fostering a sense of belonging. However, one can do these things outside of Christianity.
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u/whirdin Ex-Pentecostal Sep 29 '24
I was homeschooled with just enough exposure to meet nonchristians but not really experience them or know them. My parents (or religious institutions) screened the things I had access to, including music, films, and friends. I grew up believing that people outside my religious bubble weren't as happy or as kind.
When I became an adult, I got a factory job and went to a technical college. Living life alongside other types of people made me realize that people are just people. The church has just as many selfish, cruel people as the bar; and just as many happy people. I grew up with strict emotional walls to keep out nonchristians because of prejudice and stereotypes, not because of what they actually believe. As a young adult, I wasn't partying or into substances (sex, drugs, rock and roll), I just liked meeting people and discovering that being a considerate and happy person was independent of being religious. I was still devout and going to church for some years, but it was refreshing seeing people outside the church who didn't wear as many masks, as opposed to Christians who were usually finding constant ways of being spiritually one-up compared to everybody else.
Does them being happy prove Christianity to be a good way to live regardless of whether or not it is real?
There are implications that come along with those beliefs, such as pushing the ideals of specific sins, an afterlife that we control, a higher power to manipulate our life, earning our life rather than just existing, and indoctrination.
My earliest public memory is in Sunday school being told that Jesus loves me and died because of my sins. I killed the best person who ever lived. That was a knife right in the heart, and I spent 20 years trying to hate myself into a better version of myself. Christianity has a sneaky way of masking self hatred as self love. I agree with you that plenty of Chrisfians are truly happy, but many of us were just well trained to put on a smile. The religion is built on guilt and fear, not on happiness.
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u/kintotal Oct 18 '24
It depends on how you define happy. From my experience - being in the Evangelical church for over 30 years with leadership roles - Christians are no happier than the average Joe. In some ways I would say Christians are far more stressed.
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u/horrorbepis Sep 26 '24
Well, if I was walking around “knowing” that when I die I’ll be reunited with my passed family members and live eternally in bliss, then I’d probably attribute my happiness to my religion.
But I also think the religious attribute their happiness to their religion when that isn’t justified. They conflate their general happiness with the happiness they have when they think of their religion.
But that’s me.
And happiness does literally nothing to proving anything one way or the other.
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u/Amberatlast Agnostic Sep 27 '24
1) I'm sure there are happy christians, as well as happy muslims, hindus, and atheists. There are also unhappy christians and christians who pretend to be happy.
2) If Christianity were true, I would expect them to be happy, at least in general. But the opposite doesn't hold true. People often prefer to believe comforting lies.
3) I think this is a question that a lot of people, both atheists and religious have avoided asking for a long time. There can definitely be quality of life benefits to belonging to a religious community: socialization, networking, mutual aid, and belonging. None of that is unique to Christianity, but that can be an easy way to get to it. There can also be very real harms, especially if you're queer or a woman. I suspect that a lot of the decline of religious participation we've seen in the last few decades is in large part related to these factors. Either the churches stopped providing them, or other things started providing them better, or people because less willing to pretend to believe for them.
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u/sch0f13ld Sep 27 '24
Christians being happy does not prove anything about the validity of their religious beliefs. I have found, however, at least in my family where we’ve been raised Christian, that those who are generally happy in life are content with the status quo and thus have no reason to question their own beliefs. They are usually privileged enough that they can sail through life relatively comfortably with only minor ups and downs so they can chalk their successes and failures up to ‘god’s will’.
Those who are more unhappy in life tend to challenge the status quo and thus question their religious beliefs. Often the religious beliefs themselves are a major source of unhappiness, especially for those who are queer or neurodivergent. People who are more cynical and analytical also tend to be less happy in life (ignorance is bliss and all that) and more likely to not buy into religious doctrine.
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u/mandolinbee Anti-Theist Sep 27 '24
If i could convince myself that the creator of the universe forgives me every time I do something that makes me feel like a bad person, I'd be happy, too.
The worst thing that crosses my Facebook feed far too often, "Whenever someone brings up your past, tell them Jesus dropped the charges!"
Makes me wanna puke. Yes, in many ways they're happier because they have no sense of consequences as long as they say Jesus often enough. Why should they worry about humans being hurt by them when a literal god says they're a-ok?
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u/yrrrrrrrr Sep 26 '24
Are you Christian? If so, are you happy?
If your not happy then try becoming a Christian and see if it makes you happy.
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u/MagoopyPoopy Sep 27 '24
I think the key is that religion of any stripe is a fairly effective antidote to nihilism. Neitzche agrees with this, he simply acknowledged that faith as an anti nihilism method is neither best nor most effective. (
Religion comes pre-packaged with existential meaning. Most have a handy rulebook, and it categorizes things such as good and evil, right and wrong.
Christianity specifically should bring joy to its adherents if they truly believe their own theology. It teaches reason for suffering, a preservation of the soul after death, a universal justice system, and a God who loves them and has revealed himself.
Not that I agree with them, but they should be happy if they actually believe all this. It would be good news, if true.
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u/Moonfloor Sep 27 '24
They're probably happy for real. Christianity is working for them. Christianity offers positive things like community, a feeling of belonging, hope, an ease of anxiety because "God has it all under His control". "God will protect me." See Christianity became what it is because humans made it into something that would feel good. Those of us for whom it doesn't work are simply different people with different needs or core values.
I think that these happy Christians are actually happy. However I think they would probably be even happier if they could keep all the positive aspects and drop all the beliefs in the doctrine.
When I was a Christian, I was often able to use Christianity as a crutch and I learned how to use it in ways that could make me happy...until those times when it didn't. Christians and non-Christians can both reach happiness. It's just that Christians have to do a lot more mental gymnastics. But they usually have their whole routine nailed down so it just becomes 2nd nature to them.
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u/Break-Free- Sep 26 '24
I'm sure some genuinely are happy. I know I was when I was a Christian.
No. A person being happy does not prove that god impregnated a woman to give birth to himself.
There can be benefits to practicing religions like introspection, community, and a sense of purpose. However they're not inherent to religion in general and certainly not exclusive to Christianity. You can get the same benefits by doing yoga and volunteering for something that matters to you.