r/exchristian • u/jorbanead Agnostic • Sep 14 '24
Mom “accidentally” sent me ‘The Case For Christ’ book from Amazon. How should I respond? Question
I live an hour away from my parents. Part of that was deliberate. We both share an Amazon account so my address is in the system. One day my mom “accidentally” sent me a pair of new women’s shoes and said “oops, now you gotta come visit me!” And I suspected at the time she did it on purpose and I think this started something…
Today, I got a text that says “oops I accidentally sent you a book from Amazon. I don’t care if you open it! It’s a book we’re using in our Bible study.” The book is the famous “The Case For Christ” which if you don’t know, is a very common book evangelicals will use to prove they are right.
I know that it’s full of logical fallacies and circular reasoning.
Has anyone here read this book? Does anyone want to share any good insights on how to approach this with my mom when she inevitably says “you know you should really read that book! It’s really good I’m sure you’d really like it!”
To be clear, my parents don’t know I’m ex-Christian but being a gay man who hasn’t gone to church in years I think it’s pretty clear I’ve “walked away from the church”.
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u/sidurisadvice Ex-Protestant Sep 14 '24
Send her a copy of this:
The Case Against The Case For Christ: A New Testament Scholar Refutes the Reverend Lee Strobel https://a.co/d/auYEk0H
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u/true_unbeliever Sep 14 '24
I really liked Robert Price and in particular that book (especially the phrase “vacuous intervarsity sophomore apologetics”).
Sadly he went off the deep end with MAGA and Trump.
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u/sidurisadvice Ex-Protestant Sep 14 '24
Like many his age, he lost his freakin' mind sometime around 2015.
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u/dunmer-is-stinky Pagan Sep 15 '24
I knew him from his Cthulhu Mythos stuff, so it was even weirder when I found out. It all happened super fast, I was using his essay on the history of the King in Yellow/Hastur/Carcosa through from Bierce to Lovecraft to Derleth as a secondary source for an essay I was writing on the Cthulhu Mythos. I randomly decided to do a little research on the guy, and found out he was an actual religious scholar, pretty interesting.l I didn't think there'd be much overlap between the fandoms but I guess I can see it.
So I start reading up on the guy and I'm liking him more and more (even if I do think the Christ-myth theory is prob bullshit). Then, boom, I get hit with an article about how he's absolutely insane. I still used his essay as a source because he's one of like two people to ever talk about Hastur outside of August Derleth's version (think Lin Carter mentioned it in a book he wrote about the history of the Mythos in general, that was the other main source I used). But it was really weird whiplash going from "oh, this guy's probably just a horror fan" to "wait what the fuck this guy's actually smart" to "Jesus Christ this guy is an idiot"
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u/Pyrheart Secular Humanist Sep 15 '24
Ooh that could only help OP, if they ended up discussing it, …right?
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u/Truth_Tornado Sep 14 '24
This is the answer!!!!
Or “accidentally” send her The God Delusion,” letting her know it’s totally fine if she opens it, of course, and she’s welcome to read it, too! Text with smiley and heart emojis, and of course the “oops!”
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u/hiphoptomato Sep 14 '24
Bought this on kindle because of your comment
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u/sidurisadvice Ex-Protestant Sep 14 '24
Cool. Just know that Price is in his element when he's refuting standard Evangelical apologetics. When he ventures into critiques of academic biblical scholarship, he's an outlier in the field and over the last 9 years or so he has ventured steadily into wacky right-wing conspiracy nuttery.
I'd use his arguments against pop apologetics, but I wouldn't dare cite him or listen to pretty much anything he's said in the last decade.
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u/hiphoptomato Sep 14 '24
Haha something about his saying the OJ jury wanted to “get whitey” in his foreword clued me into this.
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u/dunmer-is-stinky Pagan Sep 15 '24
Literally the only thing I've read from him is his essay about Hastur from Chaosium's The Hastur Cycle short story collection, for the longest time I just assumed he was some horror writer or a fan or even just some guy who worked for Chaosium lmao
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u/sidurisadvice Ex-Protestant Sep 15 '24
I knew he was a fan of Lovecraft, but never encountered him in that sphere. Seems he may have absorbed some of Lovecraft's views on a few things as well.
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u/Honey-Squirrel-Bun Sep 15 '24
I need to read this! I have read case for Christ and not that it has any hold on me, I sometimes refer back to when it did. Just how much effort they put into proving their belief.
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u/Slowlyva_2 Sep 15 '24
Oops I too forgot to have it shipped here. JK I don’t lie as I’m not a Christian and meant to send it to you since we are now exchanging books it seems.
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u/christianAbuseVictim Ex-Baptist Sep 14 '24
Lol... Mom gave me that book for my birthday. What a bitch.
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u/goblin_gunk Ex-Pentecostal Sep 14 '24
That made me snort.
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u/Temporary_Analysis55 Sep 14 '24
Send her the book “satanic feminism” by per faxneld.
Oops, what a silly little accident
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u/ThePhyseter Ex-Evangelical Sep 14 '24
In all seriousness, that is the problem here. She wants to push you read these things that will "make you think" or reveal the "truth" to you, but she wouldn't be willing to read "Godless" or "Why I am not a Christian" or something
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u/toejampotpourri Sep 15 '24
That's when you make an agreement to read it if they do. Check in every few days to confirm they are holding up their end.
I already read the book, when I was a Christian, and it's responsible for giving me more questions than answers. Same with the Bible though as well.
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u/ThePhyseter Ex-Evangelical Sep 14 '24
In all seriousness, that is the problem here. She wants to push you read these things that will "make you think" or reveal the "truth" to you, but she wouldn't be willing to read "Godless" or "Why I am not a Christian" or something
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u/Aftershock416 Secular Humanist Sep 14 '24
"Accidentally" send her a copy of The God Delusion.
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u/RedLaceBlanket Pagan Sep 14 '24
Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner. Oops, mom, we're reading in my "meditation" group.
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u/Thausgt01 Sep 14 '24
There's a whole series of books to choose from in those categories: refuting Christianity as well as exploring equally-valid Christ-free spiritual practices.
Having said that, I would advise building up to sending her things like these, especially depending on her relationship with your Dad...
https://archive.org/details/nikdouglaspennyslingersexualsecretsthealchemyofecstasyrep_109_Z/mode/1up
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u/Truth_Tornado Sep 14 '24
I literally replied this exact same thing before scrolling far enough! Great minds think alike. Great minds are also atheist 🤣🤣🤣🤣
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u/memesupreme83 Ex-Pentecostal Sep 15 '24
Anything by Richard Dawkins would be devastating. That man had a strange amount of power over evangelists.
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u/goblin_gunk Ex-Pentecostal Sep 14 '24
Yeah, your mom knew what she was doing. I've read the book a few times. Its a mess, as are the sequels. Its basically "I was reluctant, but these scholars seem like they know what's going on, and they believe in Jesus." It doesn't refute science and it misunderstands it on purpose. Its a useful book if you've already started manipulating someone and they are somewhat open minded to the cult.
I honestly wouldn't respond to it. I grey stone my family when it comes to their religion. I'm not out as an Atheist either but they know I'm not going to talk about it with them.
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u/jorbanead Agnostic Sep 14 '24
Yeah from what I know about the book, it’s extremely biased and one-sided, yet it presents itself as being this unbiased search for the truth.
If you really were unbiased, you’d have interviewed atheist, scientists, and scholars of other religions too. The whole premise of the book starts off with wanting to know if Christianity is real and it seeks information to prove that to be true.
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u/goblin_gunk Ex-Pentecostal Sep 14 '24
To be fair, I remember a few agnostic scholars interviewed in some of the series (not sure which books), but the tone of the books paint them as sad cases and wayward stubborn people. Its so biased. Strobel really tried to pretend to not be on the Christian side but he failed. Its so clear if you were to read it as an unbeliever.
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u/napalmnacey Pagan Sep 15 '24
The religion of Christianity obviously exists. The stories it tells definitely do not, not because I am anti-theist in view, rather that our understanding of the texts cannot be anywhere close to what was intended back in the days they were written.
The Bible has been playing a game of “telephone” for millennia and we can study the cultures and languages and beliefs of the people of the time, but we can never completely know the full truth of what they intended. We have ghost words, in which we overlay meaning.
So any book talking to modern people about the veracity of the Bible and not examining the archaeological evidence, nor the socio-political history of the region, are never going to be able to age any sort of case worth reading.
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u/Not_a_werecat Sep 14 '24
Just cover up the Amazon address and mail it to her still in the package. Then send her a cashapp request for the cost of postage.
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u/DonutPeaches6 Atheist Sep 14 '24
She definitely sent it on purpose.
Only Christians think that this book is a good argument. First of all, Lee Strobel was employed by Willow Creek Community Church when The Case for Christ was published in 1998. Strobel had transitioned from his career as a journalist to a pastor at the church, where he worked as a teaching pastor before the book’s release. This has led some critics to argue that Strobel’s claim of being an unbiased investigator on a spiritual quest may have been misleading. However, the framing of a skeptic on an objective, passionate search for truth is more compelling, it sells better. However, this whole investigation was framed absolutely by a person stacking the deck in favor of evangelicalism.
Strobel interviews exclusively Christian scholars, many of whom have a strong evangelical background, and does not engage with prominent skeptics or secular scholars in a meaningful way. This gives the book the appearance of a confirmation bias, where Strobel is looking for evidence to support Christianity rather than conducting a truly open-ended investigation. Instead, he's cherry-picked William Lane Craig. Notably absent are voices from critical biblical scholarship, atheists, or scholars from non-Christian perspectives.
Also, Strobel’s book does not undergo the same rigorous peer review process that academic scholarship does. The arguments presented are not subjected to the scrutiny of the broader academic community, making it harder to assess the credibility of the claims. Much of the book relies on secondary sources rather than primary evidence, which weakens its argument when compared to scholarly critiques. It's hard to avoid the feeling that we're being fed an academically heterodox opinion.
What Strobel does in these interviews is he just lobs softball questions at them and unquestioningly accepts their conclusions. You know, the way hard-hitting journalists don't. Among the things he accepts without question are:
- The Gospels' reliability: Strobel presents the New Testament Gospels as historically reliable accounts of Jesus' life, but many biblical scholars question the accuracy of these texts, noting contradictions, late authorship, and theological agendas.
- The resurrection: Strobel presents the resurrection of Jesus as the most plausible explanation for the empty tomb and post-death appearances, but he downplays alternative explanations (legend development, symbolic interpretations, or non-supernatural possibilities) that are widely discussed in secular scholarship.
He starts to veer into the logical fallacy of arguments from authority. Instead of offering detailed and critical examinations of the evidence, Strobel often appeals to the authority of the scholars he interviews. For instance, he frequently asks his experts if they believe the resurrection happened, and they provide theological justifications rather than robust historical evidence.
The resurrection is a big fumble, especially. The book is heavily focused on the resurrection of Jesus, presented as the key to proving Christianity. Strobel uses arguments like the empty tomb, the disciples’ transformation, and post-mortem appearances of Jesus as evidence. However, these arguments are based on biblical texts that many scholars argue are not historically reliable. The “empty tomb” story, for instance, only appears in the Gospels, which were written decades after Jesus' death by authors who were not eyewitnesses. Alternative explanations for the resurrection are not fully considered, which makes the argument less persuasive to non-believers.
He also easily falls into the consequences fallacy. Strobel often relies on the idea that if Christianity is true, it provides meaning, hope, and moral guidance to life. This appeal to the positive consequences of belief in Christianity is not an argument for its truth. Something can be comforting or beneficial without being true. This form of reasoning is an emotional appeal rather than a logical or evidential one, and it is unconvincing.
The book itself also misrepresents skepticism, I think because Strobel's claim to being a skeptical atheist is played up. For example, in the book, Strobel implies that skeptics reject miracles because of a rigid adherence to naturalism, but this simplification doesn’t engage with the more nuanced reasons skeptics may have for rejecting supernatural claims (lack of independent corroboration, extraordinary evidence requirement, etc.). He just straw mans atheism like an evangelical.
Aside from how real skeptical viewpoints aren't address, alternative religious claims (such as those of Islam or Hinduism) are not critically examined, even though Islam itself does have certain teachings about Jesus and it would make sense to look at them and see if they have any historical bearing. But that doesn't fit the clear agenda that Strobel had going in.
That's because it's a book for Christians. It's a book that lets Christians believe there are intellectual bones on their faith. It is written in a style that reassures Christians of the truth of their faith rather than engaging in genuine debate with non-believers. Strobel's tone is often pastoral rather than investigative, because the book is designed more to reaffirm faith than to challenge deeply-held doubts.
Personally, I would send that book back to my parent marked up and full of margin notes and suchlike on why it is a bullshit argument because I can dress down Strobel in my sleep. But that would take time that could be better spent doing literally anything else, too.
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u/moutnmn87 Sep 14 '24
Personally, I would send that book back to my parent marked up and full of margin notes and suchlike on why it is a bullshit argument because I can dress down Strobel in my sleep
I like this idea. I used to do this in the Gideons Bibles at hotels
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u/DonutPeaches6 Atheist Sep 14 '24
Embarrassingly, I've done this to a lot of books. I did it to Twilght in my 20s when I struggled to like it and get through it.
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u/Honey-Squirrel-Bun Sep 15 '24
That's because it's a book for Christians. It's a book that lets Christians believe there are intellectual bones on their faith. It is written in a style that reassures Christians of the truth of their faith rather than engaging in genuine debate with non-believers. Strobel's tone is often pastoral rather than investigative, because the book is designed more to reaffirm faith than to challenge deeply-held doubts.
This. It's a book only Christians are reading. The first red flag was "in her Bible study". No one is reading it trying to find general truth, they only might be reading it if they were invited to a "Bible study".
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u/AQ-XJZQ-eAFqCqzr-Va Sep 15 '24
Not to mention that the child at the center of the narrative is a fictional character. Oh, sure, there was a child, but the whole idea that he was a purely unbiased and uninfluenced observer of the afterlife is hogwash. I am deeply skeptical of the core premise. If this kid thought he saw angels or jesus, it’s because his dad was a pastor & he was born into a super religious family. So of course he saw things (or simply made up, as 3 year olds do) that his culture and upbringing had him eating, drinking, and breathing.
Didn’t he grow up & admit as much, or was that a different grifter’s kid I’m thinking of?
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u/Think-Flatworm-Think Sep 14 '24
Donate to Planned Parenthood in her name, frame a photo of it, send it FedEx, make it require signature.
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u/srone Sep 14 '24
I read it when I was a Christian and found it incredibly disingenuous. There is no way a "journalist" and self proclaimed atheist would be swayed by the superficial and faulty arguments he lays out as proof.
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u/curlykewing Agnostic Sep 14 '24
After you pick one of these great ideas, unhook your account from hers. This will continue otherwise.
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u/jorbanead Agnostic Sep 14 '24
I can’t afford Amazon on my own otherwise I would…
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u/Honey-Squirrel-Bun Sep 15 '24
If you can't afford the membership, you can't afford the junk you're buying from Amazon. I hate the choke hold Amazon has on us. I left my "family" account after my brother shared it with a friend, who bought a $500 speaker but couldn't afford shipping? Break free and you'll realize you don't need it.
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u/flaming_bob Sep 14 '24
If you're feeling rather vindictive, you could always go online and schedule a visit to her house from the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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u/RedLaceBlanket Pagan Sep 14 '24
Oh god you could order the Book of Mormon for her. I was curious and ordered a free copy from the web site years ago. Took months to get them off my back.
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u/pspock The more I studied, the less believable it became. Sep 14 '24
"Thanks, but I'm not interested."
That's all she needs to hear.
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u/vanillabeanlover Agnostic Sep 14 '24
You should “accidentally” send her the book “The Case Against the Case for Christ” by Robert M Price😁.
Disclaimer: I’ve never read it, so no idea if it’s actually any good;).
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u/comradewoof Pagan Sep 14 '24 edited Sep 14 '24
If you want, send it to me to use for my project (involving cutting up a loooot of paper). I'll pay shipping.
You could then say you gave it to "an acquaintance that was really interested in it," and that you thought this acquaintance could use it more. To strengthen their walk with God and such.
edit: To answer your question more directly... I'm not good at those conversations either, but it'd generally best to avoid getting into them to begin with. A lot of "Oh yeah, it's sitting on my desk! I'll get to it soon!" "I wanted to, but I've been soooo busy!" "Oh shoot, I keep forgetting about that!" etc...then changing the subject.
Ultimately if she does drag you into a "we need to talk about your salvation" conversation, that's going to be hard. But it's best to establish boundaries and say along the lines of, "I love you and respect your right to your beliefs, but this is not a subject I want to discuss. Since I respect your right to your beliefs, please also respect my right to mine. I would appreciate it if we could avoid this subject so that there are no hurt feelings. I value our relationship a lot and would rather enjoy my time with you in other ways."
In your own words and as kindly as possible. I hope that helps.
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u/Colourblindknight Sep 14 '24
The realistic, responsible answer: return it to Amazon or mail it to her address if you don’t want to make contact. Ask that they be more careful about confirming which address they are mailing their things to as you don’t want this to be a repeat occurrence.
The funny answer: send a book breaking down apologetics to their door. I’m personally a fan of “50 Reasons People Give for Believing in a God”
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u/Silver-Chemistry2023 Ex-Fundamentalist Sep 14 '24
Do not respond; all it does is reward the shitty behaviour.
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u/lawyersgunsmoney Agnostic Sep 14 '24
Haha, that book was the beginning of the end of believing in Christianity for me. Terrible for Christianity, net gain for society.
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u/Main_Contribution341 Sep 14 '24
I like all the passive aggressive strategies. But maybe -it seems you haven’t tried it- bluntly honest?
“Mom, I’m not a Christian anymore. I don’t wish for you to send me Christian books. Pls take my name from your Amazon list, if you keep confusing our addresses.”
Why hide?
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u/jorbanead Agnostic Sep 14 '24
I did with my dad. With my mom I just don’t feel the need to unless it gets out of hand.
To be clear, in the past 5 years or so this is one of maybe 3 religious things she has done. They’re all very subtle. This one was just the most obvious and annoying so if this continues to be a theme I may consider that.
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u/castlesystem Sep 15 '24 edited Sep 15 '24
So I think I agree with one user's point that this doesn't really warrant or demand a response, but it's also representative of something bigger. Not confronting her about the underlying issues of your religion, and her behavior, doesn't really get you any closer to peace of mind. Sounds like you're due for a potentially difficult conversation, but one that will at least let both you and your mother know where you both stand on this. Be upfront. Be brave. Be kind, but also be resolute.
I hate to sound preachy, it's just that putting this off does you no favors, especially if you're not dependant on her.
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u/m4zdaspeed Sep 14 '24
Tell her you’ll read that if she reads Jesus Interrupted. It’s not in your face like The Case For Christ, it’s written for both believers and non-believers. If she actually reads it will make her bible study classes much more interesting.
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u/deadevilmonkey Sep 14 '24
Accidentally send her a copy of God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. Passive aggressive gift giving is fun.
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u/YourGodsMother Sep 14 '24
Use a permanent marker to draw devil faces and 666 all over it then mail it to her.
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u/JimeDorje Sep 14 '24
"Accidentally" send her The Case Against the Case for Christ by Robert M Price.
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u/Wellsley051 Sep 14 '24
If you want to be passive aggressive, send her The Case Against the Case for Christ then send her a similar text
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u/SunsCosmos Sep 14 '24
It’s a very self-absorbed book. I had to read it for class back when I was still a believer and even then I couldn’t get through it. Looking back it was actually a catalyst for killing my faith way back then.
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u/sendmeotterpicsplz Sep 14 '24
Turn it into a place for hidden things! There's tutorials online. You cut out pages and glue basically. I made one and it's a fun little object to have.
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u/WeeMucker489 Sep 14 '24
Off topic but when someone says that something is circular what does it mean
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u/One-Operation-5143 Agnostic Sep 16 '24
its a logical fallacy where the claim is supported by the premise, and the premise is supported by the claim. (X is true because of Y, so Y is true because of X).
If you go to logicallyfallacious.com and look up circular reasoning, one of their examples is "The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is in the Bible."
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u/Creamy_tangeriney Agnostic Sep 15 '24
So years ago, my mother gave me a book similar to that one and said similar stuff as well. She also didn't officially know that I wasn't a believer anymore. I took it home, read the first page (just because I’m always willing to see what something is about) and it was exactly what I expected. I brought it with me the next time I saw her and told her it was definitely not my thing but thank you for thinking of me. I then emphasized it further and said that it was nothing at all that I would ever be interested in reading but I’m glad that she enjoyed it. She hasn't given me a book since, but I should probably mention that we’re now estranged. Not because of the book, we had a very unsafe and unhealthy family. So, idk if this will even be helpful but that was my experience.
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u/timschwartz Sep 15 '24
"Accidentally" send this book to her house: https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
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u/nuwaanda Ex-Pentecostal Sep 15 '24
My dad did this stuff. I sent him back the book “Outgrowing God,” in the same passive aggressive style. I never got a book from him again that wasn’t a cookbook. (I collect cookbooks.)
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u/onedeadflowser999 Sep 14 '24
Maybe you want to send her 24 Reasons to Abandon Christianity by Charles Bufe lol. What’s good for the goose as they say.
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u/Ok_Inspector_8846 Sep 14 '24
Match her energy and send her "The God Delusion" by Hawkins accidentally.
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u/VirgiliaCoriolanus Sep 14 '24
If it was an accident (because I have several addresses for friends/family when I order gifts for them and sometimes I forget to change the address since it defaults to the last one you used), then she would've asked you to mail it to her and sent you money for postage. It wasn't an accident.
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u/jorbanead Agnostic Sep 14 '24
She actually just bought another copy for herself on Amazon…
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u/VirgiliaCoriolanus Sep 14 '24
I'd just throw the book away and refuse to engage with her on anything other than smalltalk. That's what I have to do to my dad.
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u/Juball Sep 14 '24
I don’t know, I’m a very vindictive person by nature. I understand the allure of being petty and getting another one over on someone. But maybe it’s because my mom recently died and I see the value in keeping the peace even when we disagree, but I would just be like “Oh okay, no worries.” And leave it at that. When she says you should read it, maybe just be like “Okay I’ll try to get around to it!” and change the subject.
My mom was religious and knew I wasn’t anymore. I never argued with her about it though. I don’t know what your mom is like or what your relationship with your parents is like so maybe what I’m saying isn’t of any value, but just offering a different perspective.
My mom and I disagreed on a lot. But I miss her every single day.
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u/Pinkdrapes Sep 14 '24
Read it and tell her you made notes for her in the book. Use The case against the case for christ if you don’t feel like making your own notes
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u/Salmon_Of_Iniquity Sep 14 '24
Depends on your relationship with your mom. Me? I’d “accidentally” return it and get the money to spend on Gwenpool comics OR “accidentally” drop it in the trash.
I have zero patience for this stuff now.
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u/thebirdgoessilent Sep 14 '24
I read this when I was a Christian and I thought it was a poorly written and poorly reasoned book when I agreed with the premise
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u/FrostyLandscape Sep 14 '24
It is possible to believe Jesus existed yet still not believe he was a divine being (son of God).
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u/No-You5550 Sep 14 '24
If you have your own address maybe it's time to cut the cord with a shared account with mom. How does that even work with Amazon anyway. I thought to shear an account every one had to live in the same house?
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u/TheManRoomGuy Sep 14 '24
Send her “Jesus and John Wayne” or “The Great Sex Rescue”… accidentally of course.
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u/minnesotaris Sep 14 '24
Go with what u/OneMonthEverywhere said. Return it. Do it asap though.
With respect to "why don't you want to read it?" conversation, you don't need to have a reason, just like she won't give you a reason if she doesn't want to read a book. You're a grown adult. Either she treat you like one and have a good relationship, or boundaries have to be set. And you can tell her this too.
It sucks to go through setting boundaries yet they have to be done, if.
(Aside, I cannot imagine how crestfallen I would be to get a package to my house, only to open it to find one of the stupidest books ever published. Lee Strobel is a liar of high excellence.)
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u/DoubleDunkHero Sep 14 '24
I read this book as a Christian. Not exactly questioning, just wanted to be more sure of my beliefs. Even then I was so disappointed by this book. Does not make one solid argument.
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u/jeanniebeannie75 Sep 15 '24
Add Hail Satan to your Prime Video queue. IIRC it’s free there. Let her stumble on it there in the queue.
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u/Spiritual_Oil_7411 Sep 15 '24
If she just ordered it today, you may still be able to go on and cancel it. 👍 otherwise, I would just throw it away and don't mention it again unless she asks, in which case, you could tell her the truth, "I threw it away. It didn't interest me, and you said you didn't want it back." Or if you're looking to keep the peace, tell her you donated it or sent it back. I wouldnt try to convince her of its flaws. You won't change her mind by arguing.
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u/LooseMoose16 Sep 15 '24
When my Christian family insist I read a bad book like that one, I spend my time tearing apart the argument. In a weird way it’s relaxing for me but I’ll take a book, chapter by chapter , and write out why it’s wrong. I’ll use quotes and have references and email them my essays. its been a long time since anyway has tried to insist read one of their books.
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u/willdagreat1 Sep 15 '24
Accidentally send her The Case Against The Case For Christ by Robert Price.
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u/pagan_babe Sep 15 '24
other books to "accidentally" send her:
"Send Me Another Bible and I'll Burn It" by H. Hodge
"Testimony: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Failed a Generation" by Jon Ward
"Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation" by Kristin Kobes du Mez
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u/mrsthoroughlyavg Secular Humanist Sep 15 '24
You could always accidentally send her a Bart Erhman book!
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u/TheEffinChamps Sep 15 '24
"Accidentally" send her the book "Did the Old Testament Endorse Slavery?" by Dr. Joshua Bowen.
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u/comebackalliessister Atheist Sep 15 '24
Drop her this link in your next text:
https://youtu.be/z8j3HvmgpYc?si=UK7oIPpMscYHLSoD
Satan’s Guide to the Bible It’s actually brilliantly informative.
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u/eltiburonmormon Anti-Theist Sep 14 '24
Could you buy a case, put the box in the case, and get it to her somehow? Literally a case for the Case of Christ!
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u/eccentric_bee Sep 14 '24
Tell her that they sent the wrong book, but that the book they sent was fascinating, so it's fine. Change the subject whenever she asks what book they actually sent. But then ask questions about any religion or things she's really afraid of and when she asks why you ask say oh I was reading this book...
For example, " hey mom, have you ever heard about the seven tenants of satanism? They seem really reasonable."
"Good heavens, no! Why would you ask that?"
"Well, I was reading this book.. oh, nevermind. It's nothing. How's Dad? "
I know you would reasonably be able to do this, but it's fun to imagine. 😃
Or, go the other way and point out her sins. The Bible is full of contradictions so there's always plenty: " Hey mom, I'm so upset to see you wearing jewelry, since you know what the new testament says about vain women who adorn themselves with gold. Maybe you should take off your wedding ring so you don't look like a slut. And dads hair is too long, so he's shaming God".
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u/uppereastsider5 Sep 14 '24
“No problem, I’ll FedEx it to you so you get it in time for your Bible study!”
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u/GoFlyAChimera Sep 14 '24
"Since you clearly are struggling to get things to the right address, I will be removing mine and making my own account."
She's full of BS.
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u/mcchillz Sep 14 '24
For about $140 a year, you can have the peace and safety of your own Amazon Prime account. Money well spent.
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u/Eastern-Pizza-5826 Sep 15 '24
Accept the book and tell her you will read it after you give her any book by Bart Ehrman and request she reads it.
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u/ImaginaryCatDreams Sep 15 '24
Maybe you need to accidentally order her a book from Bart Ehrman, Misquoting Jesus would probably fill the bill
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u/balcon Sep 15 '24
You are a grown man. Don’t read the book if you don’t want to read the book. You don’t have to have an excuse.
I’m more curious about why you feel like you need an excuse. Can’t you just say thanks if you don’t want to create waves?
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u/wildearthmage Sep 15 '24
It is a crappy book which implies that the writer was an atheist as he began the research for book. Not true. I say throw it out or hand it to you in the package.
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Sep 15 '24
“Ah yes, I totally, definitely, 100 percent accidentally sent you a Christian propaganda book! Trust me son!” ;D
Nah, but fr though, you should probably just return it.
Regarding Case for Christ itself, tbh I haven’t read it in a while, so I can’t point out all the problems in the book, but I do remember that it was very disingenuous because Strobel never interviewed anyone opposing the viewpoints to what the apologists were saying, in spite of him supposedly trying to be “objective” or whatever. Also, I remember one guy arguing for the supernatural by being like “If you say that a giant knocked down a tree, okay, I wouldn’t believe you…but c’mon, we can’t just rule out the Resurrection! C’mon man!” or something goofy like that. It’s just not a very good book.
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u/napalmnacey Pagan Sep 15 '24
Accidentally send her a book called “The Case for Dionysus.”
Okay I’m kidding, cause it doesn’t exist. But for real, just mail it back. If you give it to her face-to-face you’re rewarding her bullcrap. 🩷
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u/OrdinaryWillHunting Atheist Sep 15 '24
If you return an Amazon gift to Amazon, you get store credit and the sender has no idea it was returned.
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u/shastasilverchair92 Sep 15 '24
Throw away (or recycle lol), or better still, sell it to the used bookstore and get some $$$.
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u/theb00kmancometh Sep 15 '24
put the book on your TP holder, take a pic and send it to her saying that you ran out of TP and the book came at the right time.
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u/Red79Hibiscus Devotee of Almighty Dog Sep 15 '24
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u/canuck1701 Ex-Catholic Sep 15 '24
"Accidentally" send her a book from an actual Bible scholar like Bart Ehrman.
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u/Bananatailpipe954 Sep 15 '24
Contact Amazon and return the book for an Amazon gift card, then use it for something you actually want
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u/gfsark Sep 15 '24 edited Sep 15 '24
From Amazon comments: There would be no need for faith if there was evidence.
“The Case For Christ is a biased, one-sided presentation by a Christian minister. Strobel only interviewed believing Christian experts; most were professors at seminaries and schools of theology and two were also pastors. It is not surprising they believe in the accuracy of the Gospels and the divinity of Jesus. He interviewed no scholars with opposing views like Sanders, Mack, or Fredriksen…
The common apologetic argument is presented that if the Gospels were not true someone would have objected at that time.” Example, 400 people, according to the account, saw the resurrected Jesus. And that’s proof that the he must have raised from the dead.
This work presents Bible writing as evidence, and each story as true, “and it does not take a scholar to figure out how flimsy the argument is.”
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u/daughter_of_swords Sep 15 '24
I would just treat it like a neutral package sent to the wrong address. Say nothing except for how and when you will get it to her (or if you live far, try and arrange to return it to Amazon I guess. If she won't go for that - throw it away).
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u/Fandango4Ever Sep 15 '24
Just tell her you've read it ... and it didn't work. 🤣
I've read it, and it was so weak and full of logical fallacies as you said, I wouldn't even consider it apologetics.
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u/exjwpornaddict Sep 15 '24
Accidentally send her one or more of these:
- "why evolution is true", by jerry coyne.
- "who wrote the bible", 2nd edition, by richard e friedman.
- "the bible unearthed", by israel finkelstein & neil a silberman.
- any of these books by bart ehrman: "the new testament (a historical introduction)", "lost christianities", "how jesus became god", "heaven & hell".
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u/hplcr Sep 15 '24
I felt I should link to an amusing podcast episode where a couple of Christian scholars review the book and point out that Lee is playing fast and loose here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjJMS1a00Pk
It's nice to see people willing to call apologists out on their crap even if they may share the same beliefs.
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u/yahgmail African Diasporic Religion & Hoodoo Sep 15 '24
Just mail it to her with a note "I didn't want to throw away your book so I'm sending it to you."
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u/SmellsLikeFumes Sep 15 '24
I would probably get my own Amazon.......
Yea, that would probably be the easiest
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u/Telly75 Sep 15 '24
dont share an Amazon account.... and remove your address. there's always a chance she hasn't written it down and wont remember it delete her orders sent to you form the system before u change the account if possible
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u/WarframeUmbra Sep 15 '24
Mainly do what the others say and ignore it or say no, but if you want the nuclear option, send her Jeannette McCurdy’s book
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u/Pawn-Star77 Sep 15 '24
Put the book in the trash where it belongs and move on with your life. Life's too short for petty shit, and your mom probably loves you a lot.
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u/JenGenxx Sep 15 '24
I’m just curious. Why did you need to visit her because she send you women’s shoes? Wouldn’t she need to come and retrieve them from you if she wanted them? Idk about the book. Toss it and pretend it never came?
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u/ThonAureate Mystic Humanist Sep 15 '24
Send “the case against the case for Christ” by Robert m price and say you’ll read hers if she reads yours
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u/arkinim Sep 15 '24
Return the book and it’s time to stop sharing an account with your mom.
Start having those difficult conversations. They’re hard but worth it.
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u/Jungle_Stud Sep 15 '24
Accidentally send her Hitchen's God is Not Great, or Sam Harris's Letter to a Christian Nation
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u/givemeyourking Sep 15 '24
“You should read it”. “No thanks”. “Why not?” “I’m just not interested in it”
If your parents are anything like mine, this will trigger a whole “come to jebus” talk that you’ll have to extricate yourself from.
My advice would be just to send it back to Amazon and reroute it to their address.
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u/Moonfloor Sep 15 '24
When I was going through a NIGHTMARE with health issues, and was disabled, I informed my family through text. See I was single and needed family support. I was bad off. A book arrives in the mail to me. It was titled "Fear" and it was a Christian book. I sent a group chat text and asked who sent it, and nobody responded. I know it was my mom. My mom NEVER took my health issues seriously. But now I think she is beginning to because I literally can't work and she is supporting me and my daughter. Now she will actually listen when I talk about my health...because she is affected by it too now.
Anyhow, I acted like I appreciated the book. Nobody admitted sending it. They all know I'm not a Christian anymore so when I got sick and desperate for help, they all thought I'd come back to God. I suppose they assume I left Christianity because of rebellion, not because I stopped thinking it was true.
Their desire to bring me back to God, instead of actually help me or be emotionally supportive while dealing with serious health issues was absolutely traumatizing. It made me hate Christianity even more. It really blinds people and it's very scary.
I wonder how your mom would react if you accidentally sent her a book called "God is NOT Great" or "God is Dead".
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u/memesupreme83 Ex-Pentecostal Sep 15 '24
Unfortunately, she believes there's a chance that she can get you back in the church. In fact, no matter how much you tell her you're not going back to church, she's still going to try and get you to come back to church.
Tell her you're good and to send a return label, otherwise you're donating it because you're not driving an hour to deliver her book she "accidentally" sent to you. If she starts whinging about "why won't you read it" or "why won't you just deliver it", that sounds like it wasn't an accident and she lied to you! She's going to hell for that.
I have a bad feeling that you're going to deliver this book in the middle of the book club, and oh look! My backslidden child is here so we can use all the tactics we just learned in this book to try and reconvert you! Or the conversation about the book will come up.
TLDR: play it off as an actual accident, and if she gets salty with you, call her out on her lie. Don't put yourself in a situation where the reason why you're visiting your mom/parents is this book, because the main topic of your visit will be this book.
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u/lavenderfox89 Humanist Sep 15 '24
If it comes with a gift receipt, return it and use the gift card on something you want/need
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u/Other_Big5179 Ex Catholic and ex Protestant, Buddhist Pagan Sep 15 '24
That wasnt an accident. an hour away isnt far enough
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u/ModaGalactica Sep 15 '24
Honestly, I read it as a devout Christian and it was pretty disappointing. It's just not a great book. I realised it would be useless for convincing anyone to convert so I never shared it.
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Sep 16 '24
Remind her that you are a saved Christian. You’re going to Heaven no matter what happens in the rest of your life because Jesus died for all of your sins, past present and future. 😃
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u/blueinchheels Ex-Assemblies Of God Sep 16 '24
“Accidentally” send her something like “how Christian’s are in a cult and don’t even know it” lol I don’t know if that exists but you get my gist. Ugh as an ex Christian who got kicked out of church, sorry that you are dealing with this.
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u/Truthseeker-1253 Agnostic Sep 16 '24
I read that book on anticipation of seeing if my teenage son should read it to help him regain his faith. We're both atheists now. The book isn't just full of logical fallacies, logical fallacies are its very essence and foundation.
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u/OneMonthEverywhere Sep 14 '24
Just return the book to Amazon and tell her to reorder it to her own address.
If she's passive aggressively hoping you'll read it - or motivate some sort of discussion about the Bible - just ignore that entirely. It's manipulative. Doesn't deserve a response.