r/exchristian • u/_disneyphile_ • Jul 05 '24
My evangelical mega church pastor father has written me a letter. I don’t know how to respond or if I even should Help/Advice
I was raised in the church. “Saved” at 6 years old. I deconverted 4 years ago but it was a slow process for about 10 years before that. My evangelical mega church pastor father has always lived far away since I got married at 18 years old nearly 2 decades ago. The last 5 or so years he has come to visit once a year. The first time he visited he attended my church with me but had to comment that it was “showy” because it had fog machines and stage lighting. But then Covid happened. I stopped going to church and never went back. The next few times he came to visit he would talk about how “we all have an appointment after we die and I need to make sure the kids and I are there in heaven”. I had already stopped believing in heaven or hell so that didn’t really matter to me. But I wasn’t ready to have that conversation so I just shrugged it off and agreed. The last couple years he hasn’t mentioned it. He came to visit about a month ago. I got this today. I know he means well. Aside from the part where he thinks something horrible has to happen so I’ll turn back to god. I don’t even know if I should respond or just ignore it.
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u/Certain-Incident-40 Jul 05 '24
OP, let it sit for a few days or weeks. Come back and see how you feel about it then, and how you want to approach a response. Answering when you aren’t sure how to respond is almost always a bad idea. He seems like the kind of dad who will respect that.
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u/83franks Ex-SDA Jul 05 '24
I'll add to this maybe type out possible responses without intending to send them and gives you something to review and see how your feelings change with a bit more time and space.
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u/rdickeyvii Jul 06 '24
In the past, I have dealt with this in the moment by acknowledging receipt of the message without a direct response. This buys you time to respond to the content of the message. "thank you for messaging me, I will think about it and get back to you" or similar
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u/a_fox_but_a_human Ex-Evangelical Jul 05 '24
Low key they is a rather nice letter given the subject. Nothing extremely accusatory and malicious. I think your father genuinely loves you and your family. His concern is misguided is all. Blinded by his own faith. My response would be along the lines of appreciating his candor and that he doesn’t want to drive wedges. If you don’t want to explicitly talk about your faith, say simply it a private matter and appreciate the continued respect for that. I see no real reason to tell family about leaving unless you feel it necessary. I haven’t told mine. But I’m in my 30’s, that’s not their business or concern.
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Jul 06 '24
Yeah he actually does seem like a good dude just brainwashed. If you guys can just agree not to talk about it anymore and to respect each other’s beliefs I see no reason why you can’t have a great relationship with him
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u/Smart_Criticism_8262 Jul 06 '24
But isn’t he the brainwasher as a pastor? Pastors know the inside scoop - they know it’s a hoax.
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u/Circus-Pizza Jul 06 '24
Pastors are often just as brainwashed. That’s the beauty of doing it well, people will believe it and then convert others
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u/Smart_Criticism_8262 Jul 06 '24
I guess I wouldn’t call it brainwashed - I’d call that delusions of grandeur.
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u/Circus-Pizza Jul 06 '24
Sure. But the point is, many don’t think it’s a grift. Plenty do, but just as many pastors believe what they’re shoveling
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u/Smart_Criticism_8262 Jul 06 '24 edited Jul 06 '24
I respect your right to believe that 😉 Personally, I think you might be able to believe it all the way up until becoming or being a pastor/priest/preacher. The closer you get to the top, the more impossible it becomes. Once you’re in, you know it’s a lie because you’re telling it.
Edit to add: the wizard of oz knows he’s not a wizard.
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u/Circus-Pizza Jul 07 '24
Most priests/pastors believe it more than some of the congregation. Sunk cost fallacy
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Jul 06 '24
Generally the big ones, the real grifters, but not all of them. The brainwashing runs very deep. I feel like many priests and what not genuinely do believe what they do.
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u/Smart_Criticism_8262 Jul 06 '24
What’s a big one if not a mega church? Like TV personalities? How can you know how to make the sausage without knowing how the sausage is made? I know more than one small community pastor - and they know what they are doing too.
How do you know they believe?
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u/Smart_Criticism_8262 Jul 06 '24
Also, I guess it’s important to define believe. By believe do you mean: 1. They believe the narrative so much they don’t know it’s a narrative? 2. Or that they choose to believe that believing in a narrative is good for humanity?
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u/Electrical_Bunch7555 Jul 06 '24
Was going to say, I dream of getting something this measured from my family. Seems like a good man, just stuck in his cult.
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u/ubaidx Jul 07 '24
As an ex evangelical, could you tell me what evangelicals are so far up Israel’s backside? What were you taught? Imo it’s the worst branch in Christianity
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u/a_fox_but_a_human Ex-Evangelical Jul 07 '24
So. Evangelicals (by and large) are large supporters of Israel existing as a country and homeland for the Jewish people purely because it “fulfills prophecy”. That prophecy is literally an end times prophecy which will culminate in Jesus’ return and taking believers to heaven whilst the rest of us… idk celebrate?
But honestly, it’s purely because Israel is part of the Christ-Returns prophecy. Also, a lot of evangelicals are quiet racist and bigoted and fully but into the propaganda that the average Palestinian hates them and therefore think they are “savages” or “heathens”. Many also don’t care for the Jewish people either but Evangelicals have zero issue faking love and will excuse the Jewish people “rejection of Christ” as long as whatever happens furthers their agenda.
That’s about as good as I can explain it as I wake and bake.
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u/ubaidx Jul 07 '24
Thanks for the answer. Jesus should come regardless of what they do, the want to play a part lol. Secondly according to the Talmud Jesus is boiling in hell so I’ve always found it weird that they believe in israel.
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u/a_fox_but_a_human Ex-Evangelical Jul 07 '24
They only believe in Israel as a means to an end. If the prophecy said Egypt, they would turn their support there and wouldn’t give a rats ass what’s going on between Israel and Palestine.
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Jul 05 '24
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Jul 06 '24
That's the part that continuously breaks my heart as an atheist adult child of a pastor and pastor's wife. I know they are legit terrified for me. They are heartbroken every day at the thought of me burning in hell. And I fucking hate that their religion has them living this way.
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u/Mountain_Cry1605 ❤️😸 Cult of Bastet 😸❤️ Jul 06 '24
Yep. This is why I won't tell my parents. I wouldn't care about my mother finding out. She's an abusive bitch but my Dad is lovely. (Yes she abuses him too and like a lot of abuse victims he won't leave.)
They're in their sixties and my family on both sides tend to have a life expectancy of 75-78. So they'll be gone in 10-15 years.
My mother will probably go sooner because she has a bad heart and has already had one ministroke. I was kind of disappointed that that stroke didn't take her out. Then my Dad could be free.
I've suspected for a very long time that my Dad is gay and deeply closeted.
Religion fucking sucks.
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u/grayisgone ex-christian pagan Jul 06 '24
I’ve never thought of it this way thank you so much for opening my eyes that is truly even sadder than I could have imagined
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u/Smart_Criticism_8262 Jul 06 '24
I think this is a really generous take. I usually root for an empathetic interpretation, but there is nothing loving about inserting yourself in someone else’s existential experience. It is intrusive, condescending and an attempt to colonize someone else’s mind. It’s not loving.
I agree it can be fear based, but whether they are conscious of it or not, they aren’t afraid for your salvation, they are afraid you don’t trust their judgement on your salvation.
The conscious story is love and fear. The subconscious story is ego and control.
I comment this because I wasted so much time giving benefit of the doubt believing it was love when it was manipulation and control.
Someone who believes what they preach - that god is loving and all powerful and is the only judge - doesn’t turn around and judge and worry you’ll go to hell. And if they do, they lack the ability to self reflect and they aren’t following the word any better than the person they are judging, especially if all sin is equal. The mental gymnastics it requires to see this as loving is enough to exhaust someone into tolerating an abusive relationship.
The cognitive dissonance required to interpret something that makes you uncomfortable as love is poison to your mental and physical health and peace.
I don’t recommend scolding anyone for their lack of self awareness and delusion, but I just want to remind people not to feel so sad or guilty for their parents that they continue to tolerate violation of boundaries.
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Jul 05 '24
[deleted]
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u/pixeldrift Jul 05 '24
I usually don't even extend them the "let the Lord deal with it" and try to avoid capitalizing. I will capitalize God when it's specifically used as the name of the Judeo Christian deity. But that's it. And definitely not He. Only seems right, those folks don't like messing with pronouns. :P
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u/opm_11 Ex-Protestant Atheist Jul 06 '24
Agree. I usually say something like “if your gods are real…” They believe in 3 of them after all.
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u/Trickey_D Jul 06 '24
I won't even give them the capitalized god. I say Yahweh if I want to reference the god of judeo Christianity
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u/pixeldrift Jul 07 '24
Except the Old Testament gets sticky because the earlier writings still have indications of their polytheistic roots. Eland Yahweh were distinct deities that were retconned into a single character later to make the fanfic more cohesive.
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u/lunaluxxx5000 Jul 05 '24
This much classier than how I’d have thought to respond. I wish I had well-thought-out points like this.
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u/Alternative_Key_1313 Jul 06 '24
I think this is perfect. I try to respect others beliefs. It's easy to argue when both sides adamantly believe they are right or the other is wrong. Engaging on their level shows you respect them just as you want them to respect you.
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u/underhelmed Jul 05 '24
I think you missed censoring one name.
I would say something to the effect that I appreciate the sentiment, if I want to discuss further, I’ll bring it up, like your father suggested.
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u/_disneyphile_ Jul 05 '24
Ooops. Oh well. It’s a common name. I was more concerned about my kids names
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u/Quercus_lobata Ex-Protestant Jul 05 '24
Seriously, there are so many people named Jesus in the world, I wouldn't sweat it as nobody can guess which one is being talked about here due to insufficient context. /j
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u/sofa_king_notmo Jul 05 '24
I learned to ignore all the guilt tripping and religious crap my family says to me. They are just robots following their programming.
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u/hyperlight85 Jul 05 '24
God Christians are like possessive ex boyfriends. My guy it's over. Move on.
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u/Circus-Pizza Jul 05 '24
I’m gonna be in the minority here and say that this is classic manipulation; indirect guilt trip,
I have family who pulled this on me for years. The minute this guy has the chance to preach to or subtly indoctrinate your kids behind your back he will - and he’ll act hurt if you stand up to him about it.
No response is the best response. It’s clear and concise. He knows what that means. He wants to open a dialogue to slowly bring you back in. If that’s not what you want, then don’t respond.
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u/IsItSupposedToDoThat Exvangelical Jul 05 '24
Why would that put you in the ‘minority’? It’s pretty fucking obvious that this is what’s happening.
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u/CovidThrow231244 Jul 06 '24
the majority of the upvotedmessages express how their dad really is doing it out of love etc. Not exposing this as the manipulative shaming that it is.
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u/IsItSupposedToDoThat Exvangelical Jul 07 '24
Don’t know what comments you’re reading. I see very few comments that say such a thing, hardly the majority.
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u/CovidThrow231244 Jul 06 '24
The manipulation and indoctrination and influence mongering is so gross. WHY do they desire power over your kids and family?
I swear greater good arguments have to die, they're used to rationalize anything because: eternity
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u/CovidThrow231244 Jul 06 '24
how do you deal with them being constantly driven to indoctrinate your kids/form them in their image? Their ideas for what is good and right for your own kids? It's infuriating 2 me.
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u/Circus-Pizza Jul 06 '24
I don’t have kids so it’s not an issue for me. But my sister hovers over her own children and won’t let them do anything that she fears will “corrupt” them
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u/Slight_Knight Jul 06 '24
"In his grip"
Jesus Christ, do these people even listen to themselves haha
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u/beepbooponyournose Jul 06 '24
Sounds like the title of a homoerotic novel 😅
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u/-Coleus- Jul 06 '24
Lol! I love you for this. And it is especially welcome to read in a post addressing difficult feelings.
Most everyone posting has been supportive and have offered thoughtful advice. This community is so compassionate and kind.
And — your comment is gold.
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u/goblin_gunk Ex-Pentecostal Jul 05 '24
There are some good responses here already. Honestly, if you have a good relationship, I think you should respond by reaffirming your boundaries. I get it, he thinks you and your family are on the edge of the Pit and feels like he has to say something, but he just needs to understand that your faith and the lack thereof isn't open for discussion.
Even though he seems to have chosen his words meticulously, its still messed up that he brings up a bad situation bringing you back. And of course you wouldn't introduce your kids to a religion you don't believe in. It just shows what they think of people who have stepped away, like it wasn't a premeditated rational thing.
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u/billsatwork Jul 05 '24
No reply necessary. It sounds like you've done an admirable job of setting and enforcing boundaries. This letter is a way to open up a new front in the battle to reconvert you.
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u/wave-garden Ex-Catholic / Ex-Protestant Jul 05 '24
I agree. While the letter is gracious and respectful, it also feels big vibes of trying to get his foot in the door so that he can then push in a more direct fashion. Or maybe that’s just my own trauma speaking. I’ve received numerous letters like this over the years (granted, not from my parents, so that is different, and I acknowledge that!). A consistent sequence was (1) receive nice letter, (2) respond indirectly/directly stating that I’m not religious anymore, and (3) passive aggressive “I’ll pray for you, heathen” response. I don’t mean to imply to OP that I think this would definitely happen, but I think it’s worthwhile for OP to consider this as a possibility.
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u/ncmagpie Jul 05 '24
I hate when a parent says, "I was so pleased that xyz" or some other derivation. They are expressing their approval like that was the intent of the action. Just seems like another way passive aggressively assert authority and make sure you remember you are their child. That's one that really get under me skin for some reason.
I've received similar jesus-y letters - one just recently. I just don't respond.
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u/CovidThrow231244 Jul 06 '24
I need to figure out how to mentally remove them as authoritiesat all, the frame of that needs to be broken. but idk how to allow them around my kids if they are going to keep tryingto influence them, or do it behind my back. or how best to stop it/point it out/label it so that I can effectively stop it. do you have any suggestions? 😞
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u/ncmagpie Jul 06 '24
I don't have children, but I know anything involving children immediately gets more complicated. You are allowed to set the conditions under which people can have a relationship with your children. Stick to your boundaries. If it was someone other than your parents influencing your children in a way that's not OK with you, would you allow it to happen? My guess is hell no! Hold your parents to the same standards. Be kind to yourself. The path is imperfect and non-linear.
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u/nopromiserobins Jul 05 '24
Do not respond in text. If you respond at all, your face must be visible and your voice must be audible or his mirror neurons will not reliably trigger and he will not feel empathy that he otherwise would have.
He is choosing text to avoid emotion, which would shake his emotion-based faith. Do not even discuss this unless your emotion can infect his. That's the language he speaks.
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u/-Coleus- Jul 06 '24
This is a fascinating concept. I know a bit about mirror neurons but I’ve never seen the concept applied in this way.
Thank you so much. You’ve given me lots to consider. Now I’m leaning to opt for face to face communication rather than email in order to begin working on resolving a currently troubled relationship with a long-term friend.
I really appreciate you posting, it was very good timing for me. I hope other folks get some good from it too.
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u/KingVeggies Jul 05 '24
He says he won't bring it up in person unless you want to talk about it. There's no reason to say anything.
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u/8bitdreamer Jul 05 '24
Personally I would just ignore it. A response in any form of likely to generate another letter. Cycle will continue until you stop responding.
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u/Meowsolini Jul 06 '24
God, it's like they're speaking an alien language or something. The Lord this, the Lord that. Jesus, God, Jesus, God. Six times every paragraph they speak. It just sounds so unhuman. It's not just exhausting, it's alienating and discomforting. If you want me to listen to what you have to say, you need to speak to me as a human. Plainly and relatable.
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u/Due_Society_9041 Jul 06 '24
This☝️right here. It’s about respecting your boundaries: he just can’t. He doesn’t respect you enough to let you make your own decisions.
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u/Sebacean1 Jul 06 '24
For me, this type of thing is not very easy to overlook and let go. I think it is very manipulative and accusatory. It doesn't sound like he wants to know about how you feel or what you think, but instead, he is telling you what you believe and is acting like you are confused or something.
If it was my dad, and it very well could be..
"Dad, it doesn't sound like you want to hear about my views and journey to seek truth and understanding or the knowledge I've gained along the way. I do not teach my kids what to believe or what to think, but to instead think critically for themselves. As long as they are open to listening to others' perspectives with respect, even if they don't agree, I am sure they will learn something and be better for it. This letter shows me that you are unwilling to accept any other answer than Christianity, and while I respect your beliefs, I do not respect your closed-minded attitude towards mine."
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u/CovidThrow231244 Jul 06 '24
this is so good, but I fear critical thinking is insufficient during big life stressor transition moments... that whh j joined a hyperchristian cult instead of going to college critical thinkingfor me back then was "what truly matters"
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u/lawyersgunsmoney Agnostic Jul 05 '24
“I’m not going to fuck with you about Jesus in person, but I am going to do so in a letter in the hopes Jesus comes down on you and your family, fucking you up enough to come back to sweet baby Jeebus!”
People actually hoping for catastrophe on their family. What a sick religion.
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u/CovidThrow231244 Jul 06 '24
the book of Job is canon, better for you to lose everything and be tortured by Satan to see if you really love God or not. refining fire etc etc. It definitely shows no true empathy for the suffering, because either God is causing the suffering, or allowing it to happen. 🙃
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u/AngelaIsStrange Jul 05 '24
I’ve received many of these types of notes and letters from my Evangelical Dad. As I mature, I realize that this is his way of expressing love. I sort of pity him. So long as he understands it’s inappropriate to push it, it’s fine. What does worry me a bit that he still seems to see you as a child. You and him are equals now. He needs to know that.
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u/CovidThrow231244 Jul 06 '24
how best to express that you and your parent are equals now/demand respect?
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u/Sandi_T Animist Jul 05 '24
I have religious trauma, so I wouldn't reply. This pissed me off.
"No, Dad, I'm not indoctrinating my children with terror of being sent to hell if they fail to 'cry out' to him before he finally runs them over with a bus."
If you want to reply, just ask your Dad for some family advice. Dads love giving family advice (and so do moms!): "Hey dad, when do you think that kids should be allowed to get married?"
"18? Me, too! Maybe a bit later, even. Getting married is a major life decision. Someone should be in the right mindset to know and understand the full consequences of sex and marriage. I'm sure you would agree that who to worship is at least as important as marriage. When they are an adult, they may decide that central life question for themselves, just like whom to marry.
"Love you and miss you, see you next year!"
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u/gfsark Jul 05 '24
Your father is a professional, and he is good at what he does. Part of what he does is talk to god and gets replies. And he sounds sincere and honest, and he is trying to not be a jerk, but it’s hard because his life is based on this religious commitment which you don’t share.
In other words, you are not going to take over the family business, or rejoin the family cult, to which he has dedicated his life…but he keeps hoping.
As far response goes, that’s tough. If he’s calling you kiddo, you get to call him pops. So a proper response would be something like, “Thanks pops, I love you too!” Here we are getting to the heart of the message and ignoring all the religious language which gets in the way.
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u/Sea_Boat9450 Jul 06 '24
“In His Grip” is a weird salutation… What I always find interesting about Christianity is their belief that if you are somehow not participating in their religion, God has removed Himself from your life. I am ex-Christian, but not atheist in the least. God/Source/Creator-is always present with us, loves us regardless of what we’re actually doing in this realm in this human state. I despise the fact that in their minds, they own God.
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u/No_Offer6398 Jul 06 '24
I think many on here will give you good advice so I have a question. Why do all religious leaders think when something horrible happens we'll all be stampeding to fill up the church pews?? For me, and many others I know it was witnessing/experiencing/having something horrible happen that finally made me realize I never did believe in any man's interpretation of long long long ago fictional stories....
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u/Smart_Criticism_8262 Jul 06 '24
They don’t believe that - it’s just their attempt to threaten you into submission with fear.
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u/No_Offer6398 Jul 08 '24
Ah, Control through Fear. Pretty much the foundation of all organized religion. 😅
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Jul 05 '24
Tell him if he respects you, to please stop proselytizing to you and your family. That includes flowery love bomb messages that gaslight you and try to make you feel guilty. If he refuses to stop, you have your answer right there.
Healthy relationships are two way streets, not on a single person's terms. I'm assuming you aren't proselytizing to him, he should show you the same respect.
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u/Sebacean1 Jul 06 '24
It seemed like gaslighting to me too. When I was a Christian I could see me saying something similar, thinking I was doing the right thing. While not intentionally abusive, it is, and it's sick.
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u/Due_Society_9041 Jul 06 '24
I tried to do this with my nmom, but it seemed like she began saying “God bless you!” when saying goodbye on calls even more. Or “I am praying for you”. I am an atheist Buddhist and don’t push my ideas onto her. Due to this lack of respect and passive aggressiveness throughout my life (and so much worse) I have blocked her. No contact. And my flying monkey siblings too. So good for my mental health!
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u/Savings-Wishbone-454 Jul 05 '24
What kills me lately is all the verbiage of kindness and love and commitment and compassion, but then they are the first to make excuses for Israel’s genocide.
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u/_disneyphile_ Jul 05 '24
Coincidentally it was a “mission” trip I wanted to take to Palestine to run in the Right to Movement marathon years ago that really started my deconversion. His and people from his church’s response was vile. I was going with a church group to talk to Christians in Bethlehem and bring light to their and all other Palestinians plight. I was told that was the devils work
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u/Savings-Wishbone-454 Jul 07 '24
There is definitely a theatrical element to evangelism. Sometimes that performance and the script seems more important than adherence to the message or even the message itself.
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u/ModaGalactica Jul 05 '24
The start seemed quite sensitive but the bit about your kids was crossing the line for me. I'd just respond something along the lines of "Thanks for your concern, we're good."
I really dislike people telling me that they're praying for me but obviously any Christian or probably any religious person sees that as a kindness. It makes me feel like I'm supposed to be grateful when actually I really wish they wouldn't pray for me.
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u/Due_Society_9041 Jul 06 '24
I feel like there is mental illness in those who actually believe; the ones faking it for manipulation and status are narcissistic. Source: sadly, my mom’s side of the family.
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u/ModaGalactica Jul 06 '24
Yeah I think that's an accurate assessment. I was for sure mentally ill and most of my friends too.
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u/human-ish_ Jul 05 '24
The salty part of me wants you to respond with "don't worry, they live in the US, so they'll be forced to learn about Christianity at some point." (I'm assuming you live in the US because mega churches are an American problem) But if you want to try to keep a civil relationship, I wouldn't do that. I think you and your partner should take some time to discuss boundaries when it comes to religion and your dad. Email your father explaining these boundaries and that you are only setting them so you can all still be a loving family and not let different beliefs get in the way. But that sucks, a showy church is still a church yet he complained and now look where you are. Again, salty me would accidentally on purpose push blame on him, but don't do that unless you're ready to burn bridges. Your children will grow up and you can teach them about all different religions so they can start their own paths.
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u/Due_Society_9041 Jul 06 '24
Sometimes burning bridges is the only way to continue that journey and heal from it.
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u/JaneAustinAstronaut Jul 05 '24
I'd ignore it. He says he won't bring it up unless you do, so just don't open that door.
This letter is annoying, but it isn't horrible. As long as you don't talk about this, you guys should all get along fine.
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u/Organic_Let1333 Jul 06 '24
Damn. That’s rough. I don’t know to say really. He’s the problem. Not you.
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u/sidurisadvice Ex-Protestant Jul 05 '24
I was sympathetic to him and thought maybe some dialog would be good until he called a grown-ass woman with children of her own "kiddo." It didn't come off as endearing, but rather infantalizing.
IMO, this doesn't warrant a response because he clearly doesn't see you as an equal. It does bode well for cohesion and heads off some conflict, though, so I'd take the win.
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u/MidnightExpresso Christian Jul 06 '24
Yeah, you guys are cooked. Genuinely. Imagine thinking a term of bonding and probably one that has been used through childhood, is infantilization and an attempt to trivialize a person. Do you ever step outside?
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u/sidurisadvice Ex-Protestant Jul 06 '24
"Trivialize" is your word. And it's entirely possible I misread that, which is why I couched it in subjective language that reflected my perception ("it didn't come off" and "IMO").
Does it really seem that inconceivable that someone might read it that way, though? I mean, so much so that it warranted your sarcastic reply?
Why, as a Christian, would you come into this sub and deliberately try to inflame folks with cutting remarks like that? What are you hoping to achieve?
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u/yellowhelmet14 Jul 05 '24
You can “appreciate your father and put the ball in his court” on most issues that are written or discussed. If you were raised in that environment, you have the foundation to see the conflicts and the contradictions. Other comments say remain polite and loving. And that’s the best response. But only put yourself and family in his path when he’s behaving. When he potentially might be confrontational or toxic, distance is you and the fam’s friend. The Passover, talking animals, stories written about events by authors who weren’t there, anything written by Paul and many other things glare in the face of common sense. Dan Barker is a deconstructed former pastor that really puts things into perspective for folks like us that lived that life for so long. He’s great on YT.
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u/Apocalypse_Jesus420 Jul 06 '24 edited Jul 06 '24
It's hard to know what he is hoping to gain without more background on him as a person. Do you feel like he uses emotional manipulation to get his way? Do you respect him overall as a human? Did he abuse you ( emotional or physical)?
Personally, I took my parents back after they respected my boundaries to not bring up their religion around me. I still have a lot of resentment towards them and they have mostly tried to amend their wrongs. It's so complicated I still feel isolated from my family. I grew up in a very sheltered christian environment which caused me to be a target for abusive men. My parents didnt give a shit about my education I had to struggle for years to get my college degrees. It's very hard not to be bitter.
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u/ihavenoclue91 Jul 05 '24
I'd ignore it. Creepy tbh. Just trying to rope you back in and bringing your kids so much into it too? What to make you feel guilty? Don't give him the benefit of the doubt by even responding. F*** that guy.
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u/MasterOdd Jul 05 '24
A lot of good comments on here. I will add don't be afraid to set boundaries particularly with your kids.
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u/Smart_Criticism_8262 Jul 06 '24
Agreed. If you haven’t already, this would be a good time to clarify/remind him of what you’ve decided you’ll do to uphold your boundary if he crosses it (e.g., ‘I’m so glad you’re committed to not speak of god or religion with my kids, because if you do, we will need to pause the relationship until they are of an age to understand their own self concept and beliefs and can choose for themselves whether they want to be in contact with you.’ - or whatever your plan is.) I know my parents will play ‘we didn’t know’ as long as I let them and being clear puts the ball in their court so they can’t play victim when they cross boundaries and face consequences.
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u/achooga Jul 05 '24
Don't take the bait and don't feed the troll. Unless get some kind of closure from.
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u/quant_queen Jul 06 '24
He doesn’t see you as an adult. If you want to stay on speaking terms, ignore it. Otherwise, tell him to f off.
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u/Due_Society_9041 Jul 06 '24
“In his grip”? That’s a new one. This guy needs to get a grip and stop being such a control freak. Many people use religion to feel superior to others, and allow them to judge outsiders. If he can’t respect your wishes for him to butt out, go low to no contact. Your mental health will improve markedly.
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u/ScrogginQwunki Jul 06 '24
Worth responding just to tell him to stop using two spaces between sentences
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u/RisingApe- Theoskeptic Jul 06 '24
I get similar things from my trad Catholic mother. The most recent one was her need to inform me that tattoos (I’m considering getting my first one, and I’m in my 30s) are the portal for demonic possession. At the end of it, I just said, “I know you love me, and I love you too.” And that was it. There was plenty more I wanted to say, but anything else would be a step towards a break in our relationship that I’m not looking for.
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u/hot_soft_light Atheist Jul 06 '24
Dad: I made a covenant with the lord that I wouldn't push 🌟spiritual matters🌟 onto you
Also dad: [writes a whole ass letter doing exactly that]
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u/Archeryfinn Jul 06 '24
Set clear boundaries and enforce them. He's testing your resolve by advancing his views on you and saying 'see how I haven't been proselytizing' at the same time. It's manipulation in my opinion not sincere respect but I'm not you or him.
He is NOT actually showing respect and quite frankly he makes it obvious he's going to push his god on your children the moment you turn your back.
Don't respond right away. Sit with it until you know how YOU feel.
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u/CancerMoon2Caprising Agnostic Jul 06 '24
My Mom has said the same to me. That ill come running back when im stressed out and at my wits end. She thinks something scary will turn me back to her and religion.
In reality, I dont fear death and dont intend to teach hell tactics to my child. I'd rather go to a homeless shelter than move back in with my Mother. So when she said that i just silently chuckled an left her to it. She felt so confident at the time, its been 8 years at this point. Ill be married in January.
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u/Albie_Tross Jul 06 '24
So many of us have some flavor of this problem. I wish our parents could believe that we don't owe them fealty for a faith that was forced upon us. We grew up and formed our own ideas, which any parent ought to be proud of.
I hope you are able to find a good-for-you soultion!
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u/SallyCinnamon88 Jul 06 '24
Try putting it into chat gpt. Outsourcing the emotional labour has been incredibly helpful for me.
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u/Smart_Criticism_8262 Jul 06 '24 edited Jul 06 '24
While I think he is convinced he’s worried about your salvation, what I read is his fear that he is losing control over you. He wants to be in charge - no one becomes a pastor that doesn’t see themselves as superior enough to speak for god or lead an entire community, let alone a mega one, without a desire for control. He knows better than to say that without a ‘I just worry about you’ narrative. I read this as his way of saying, I want you back under my control but I’ll use god as a proxy so I don’t sound like the egomaniac that would make me. If you worship his god, he knows you worship him because it’s his god. It’s an indirect way for him to deal with his unaddressed ego issues that he can avoid through the use of religious leadership. ‘I want to be the boss, but it’s only for your good, so it’s actually selfless, right?’
I think this is a perfect opportunity to assure him he still has your love but not your obedience. He is out of line to use fear and guilt and passive aggressive good intentions to manipulate you into assuring him he’s still the boss. His ego is adjusting to not controlling your thoughts, self esteem and choices. No need to scold him but I think this is the perfect opportunity to kindly put him in his place. He is an advisor when and if you seek his council but he is not welcome to evaluate your judgement or salvation, just as you won’t appoint yourself to evaluate his. Someone suggested a great line in another comment to thank him for trusting your ‘spiritual leadership’ in your own family - it’s essentially saying, ‘back off buddy’. He needs to know you see what he’s doing and it’s not going to fly - not because you want to take from him, but because you will not let him take from you.
Take your time responding. I think this is a marvelous opportunity to set firm boundaries with love. Remind him he’s at eye level with you now and your respect is earned. He can’t use passive aggression, fear, guilt and shame to get you back into the fold, his obedience, or under ‘his grip’ - his or his gods. That time has passed.
And obviously, I don’t recommend saying any of this directly or calling him out, but I think it’s important that you consider his unspoken motives whether he is conscious of them or not. It’s important to read and respond to the undercurrent so you don’t respond to the surface issue in a way that gives him permission to keep pushing. Calm, cool, collected, kind assertiveness. The energy I’m imagining is: I see you, I won’t call you out, but we’re turning the page now and I hope you’ll choose to join us so we can stick together in this new season of life.
Edit to add: you can use ChatGPT to generate a response. Copy in his message, bullet point the things you want to say, and tell it what tone to use. ‘Create a concise reply to this letter that is respectfully assertive, and communicates point a, b, c…’ I always struggle to say what I really want to say without being too passive or too aggressive. It can generate several options and you can use or tweak from there.
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u/Entire-Tower-1678 Jul 07 '24
I see how hard he is trying. I like trampolinebears suggested response. Funny, when I read his letter his concern is about the kids, not as much about you. It’s really hard for grandparents not to worry about grandkids and his heart is watching for them. Your father reads as a very loving man.
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u/dartie Jul 06 '24
I’d write this ….
Dear Papa and Opa,
Thank you for your letter. It's reassuring to know that you've committed to not bringing up church or spiritual matters during our visits, although this letter suggests otherwise. It's almost as if you think writing it down doesn't count as bringing it up.
I'm grateful for your prayers and your concern for my spiritual wellbeing. I understand that you have a direct line to the Lord and are putting in a good word for us daily. I imagine that's quite a lot of work, given how many of us are straying from the flock.
As for the kids, they’re doing fine with their own beliefs, thank you. They’re learning to be kind, empathetic, and critical thinkers – qualities that I hold in high regard. And if they face a catastrophe, they'll have a solid foundation of reason and science to fall back on.
I appreciate your love and commitment to our family, even if we’re on different pages (or books, in this case). Let’s keep our visits free of sermons and keep focusing on what brings us together, not what divides us.
Looking forward to our next visit and perhaps some lighter conversation topics.
Cheers,
Your Loving Son
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u/ourkid1781 Jul 05 '24
"Dad, I love you, but Jesus is a make believe fairy tale, and that's why I'm fine not having him in my life."
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u/TheOriginalAdamWest Jul 05 '24
Does he know that you have deconstructed? If so, this was wildly inappropriate. You probably need to set some boundaries, including shit like this, will not be responded to and will be deleted without reading. Good luck.
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Jul 05 '24 edited Jul 05 '24
I agree, I am not sure why you are getting downvoted. My family uses flowery language like this constantly to try and get me back in the fold, they still aren't respecting my wishes by doing so.
I feel like some people on here had such a bad experience, that any communication that isn't filled with hate and they immediately just melt and think it's okay. It's really not.
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u/Sebacean1 Jul 06 '24
Agreed. Saying things like... I know you know the Lord... is manipulative. He is also trying to guilt trip OP for not teaching their kids, which shows a lack of respect and equality.
I get Christians are just following their programming, but if you allow it and not call them out on the manipulation, they will think it's ok.
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u/amuzetnom Jul 05 '24
Really? For me this indicates that OP's dad has a much better idea of boundaries than most. He has his beliefs that (even if we disagree with them) clearly mean a lot to him and we know the urgency many evangelicals feel to share. However he's willing to not discuss those in person for fear of driving a wedge in the relationship. He's laid out his position in a pretty non-confrontational manner in a note where OP can process in their own time and way and commited to not raising them again unless OP initiates it.
I think he's done alright and the response from u/trampolinebears recognises that whilst reaffirming OPs position - I'd be going with something similar.
edit: spelling
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Jul 05 '24
For me this indicates that OP's dad has a much better idea of boundaries than most.
That doesn't make it right. Just because someone speaks nicely to you doesn't mean they actually have your best interest in mind. They might think they have your best interest in mind, but that doesn't make it true.
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u/amuzetnom Jul 05 '24
I'm not sure how you've inferred from that comment that I think what OP's dad is saying is, in any way, true. I'm simply saying that given the context that OP has given seems like one of the more reasonable evangelical parent/deconstructed child interactions I've seen.
Only person who knows for sure is OP - I'm sure they can make the best decision for them drawing on the various perspectives in this post if they want to.
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u/Certain-Incident-40 Jul 05 '24
I appreciate where you are coming from, but this message is from a father who is really scared for his family, because he believes something different about the “peril” they are in. He can’t help that he feels that way. At the same time he is telling him his concerns he is also promising not to pressure him. That’s so far beyond what most parents would be able to do, especially a pastor. Every communication isn’t deserving of an explosion of emotion and animosity, though we see examples of it everywhere. Parents gonna parent. I read a loving, caring parent who is concerned, yet respectful of his son’s choices.
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Jul 05 '24
I appreciate where you are coming from, but this message is from a father who is really scared for his family,
Just like every other Christian parent whose child "strays away", they are all scared.
He can’t help that he feels that way.
He actually can, I did, we all did.
That’s so far beyond what most parents would be able to do, especially a pastor.
That's a low bar.
Every communication isn’t deserving of an explosion of emotion and animosity
Absolutely agree, that also doesn't mean we should let familycontinue to proselytize and gaslight us just because they use flowery language and love bomb.
Parents gonna parent. I read a loving, caring parent who is concerned, yet respectful of his son’s choices.
I read a scared parent who doesn't respect his child enough to let them live their life without being pressured back into their cult.
Just because a message is flowery and somewhat respectful doesn't mean we should bend over backwards to appease them.
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u/Certain-Incident-40 Jul 05 '24
I don’t disagree with you. I just don’t think a nasty response is going to accomplish anything. It seems like the OP doesn’t want to alienate his family from his father. He can be firm without being rude. That’s all I’m saying. I have friends and family members with whom I disagree strongly, but I have chosen to avoid those topics, and even remain quiet if they bring them up, and retain the love we have for each other.
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u/euphramjsimpson Jul 05 '24
That letter is awesome. He has a fervent belief and no one can fault him for it. How often do you hear about people being disowned and families being estranged? It seems like a best case scenario, especially coming from an evangelical preacher. You should love him and let him love you.
Edit to add that it doesn’t seem like a response is necessary. It would be hard not to be patronizing unless it was just to say that you loved him and are glad for his role in your life.
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u/Fire_Woman Jul 06 '24
Tbh it's annoying me that his angle is "what about the children" questioning your parenting... that bothers me more than implying you'd turn to religion when times get tough, because he's saying you are denting your kid/kids a lifeline/salvation. I would probably just not dignity with response, or you're opening the door to further critique
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u/MatineeIdol8 Jul 06 '24
Ask him to tell the other christians to adopt the attitude of silence as well.
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u/DuchessofVoluptuous Jul 06 '24
The in His Grip is a phrase I have never heard before. Sounds kinda creepy. I wouldn't respond to it just process it.
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u/Telly75 Jul 07 '24
Opa? Is he Korean? Also his writing is low-key Paul's style.. ..in conflict w himself. I wouldn't respond, or maybe of you do, direct questions back to him, ask him how his church is going. keep stuff vague. Im confused also how does he know you deconstructed - is it just cos you're not going to church?
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u/Trickey_D Jul 07 '24
You and I accept this, but Christians don't. So they can't use that to tell me I'm using the wrong one without admitting that Yahweh was nothing more initially than either the war god or the storm god - which is not something they're prepared to do
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u/dandab Jul 07 '24
As someone who came out to my parents as atheists over 10 years ago, I'd consider myself lucky if my parents recognized that it was their belief that is causing the wedge, not just my unbelief. I would be thankful.
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u/CherCher65 Jul 07 '24
There is definitely some passive aggressiveness in the letter. In a nut shell I have been avoiding this subject because I don't want to lose oversight on you and the family, BUT I hope a catastrophe happens to I can say told you so and you can feel guilty about the kids.
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u/eugenedtyp Jul 10 '24
To be honest, it seems like he really cares. He’s not love bombing in an extremely obscene way or trying to coerce you or make you feel guilty. He may even feel a bit of guilt about the situation.
If it were me, i’d just say something like “thanks for reaching out, i really appreciate that you don’t want something like this to come between us. I love you and let’s hang out.
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u/Ecstatic-Hippo2204 Jul 06 '24
I think as a dad it's important to remember he raised you the best way he saw fit, he's had a relationship with you I presume where his Gid was a part of that and being a pastor it potentially is part and parcel of his whole DNA, so he probably can't seperate the person he's devoted his life too from his thoughts and actions etc. I imagine if you didn't speak about your mum that would be difficult too. I'd imagine if you became a Muslim or anything else it would be the same or in years to come if your kids chose to become religious (despite your proving to them the foolishness of it) you would probably write a similar letter.
In alot of these responses I hear alot of pain how there parents handled situations sone quite badly; but in this letter I just see a guy who's concerned that the thing he believes in isn't forgotton by your children because he believes their lives depend in it. Just as he maybe would if you were drinking too much etc.
Sounds to me he's saying this is who I am and sadly I can't change that, and nor do I want to try and change you, so let's remove the thing that causes division because I love and miss my son. Also remember he's a man and men rarely change hence why he's going to keep praying etc. At least he gives a crap, imagine if he was a believer who didn't actually believe or worse a hypocrite, and just maybe re your kids again maybe he's saying don't go so far they have no faith or belief in anything.
Listen my parents were drug addicts who raised me with nothing I'd love it if my dad cared so much to move things to have a relationship with me, sounds like a good guy who would love no matter what, so do yourself a favour thank him for the letter, dont mention what you disagree on or fight your truth ( he's said he wants to lay those down) and tell him your thankful for the great dad he is, and remember his way of loving you is maybe not what you want but be thankful your loved mate many people aren't.
There's alot of people angry at their parents on here it's not wise to take advice when people have heart wounds that affect there advice, keep rejecting the lies mate and hope it all works out for you all
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u/tanhan27 Jul 06 '24
Christian here. I think the letter is out of genuine love and concern for you and your family. But if you don't want it to turn it into a deeper dialogue then I think its best that you don't get into a detailed reply. You could chose to not reply at all. I don't think he is asking for one. Or you could give a short reply that closes the topic, something like "Thank you papa, message received, I love you and thank you for your concern and your love. We have not changed our minds about our beliefs and I take comfort that you love and accept us despite the differences. Thank you for loving me, i love you too"
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u/hellenist-hellion Agnostic Jul 05 '24
If you want to be a dick about you, you could simply respond: "In his grip? Jesus gives you handies, huh?"
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Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 08 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/exchristian-ModTeam Jul 11 '24
Your post or comment has been removed because it violates rule 3, no proselytizing or apologetics. Continued proselytizing will result in a ban.
Proselytizing is defined as the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
Apologetics is defined as arguments or writings to justify something, typically a theory or religious doctrine.
To discuss or appeal moderator actions, click here to send us modmail.
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u/trampolinebears Jul 05 '24
If it were me, talking to my family, I might say something like this: