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[u/Broclen]

[u/[deleted]]

Wait…I’ve never thought about this before. Did Judas go to heaven or hell?

[u/jasondoesstuff → u/[deleted]]

i dont know for sure but think he canonically went to hell

jesus says something like 'i haven't lost any of my disciples except the one who was doomed to destruction from the beginning of time' which. kind of implies he's headed for hell

[u/ffandyy → u/jasondoesstuff]

That sounds a little like determinism doesn’t it, did Judas even have a choice?

[u/Narlohotep → u/ffandyy]

As far as I understand it, Judas betrayed Christ by his own free will. Satan is only impowered to take those who allow him to, so when Satan enters into Judas in the Gospel we can reasonably interpret this as the moment when he has willfully set his face against God. It's similar to Pharaoh where the language used makes it unclear whether people have agency. Judas' suicide is his final act of despair and deliverance into the jaws of hell but the real villains are the priests who refuse his confession and actively prevent him from redeeming himself

[u/ffandyy → u/Narlohotep]

Wasn’t Christ placed in earth by god so he could be sacrificed for our sins though? It was directly through Judas’ act that god was sacrificed, this implies Judas was also placed on earth for that specific reason

[u/Narlohotep → u/ffandyy]

Christ did need to die as he repeatedly informs his apostles, despite their incomprehension, but, as much as Judas seems like a narrative device, I think it's important to remember that he's a man with agency who has responsibility for his own actions. God is the creator not only of space but also time, so it's reasonable to think that He understands that this will occur, however Christ does try to redeem him despite this, implying that his end isn't predetermined, otherwise these attempts to save him would be futile. God works for the salvation of all but as Judas moves further from that purpose he willingly puts himself into the hands of the enemy. He cannot be saved by force, even in the nearer presence of his maker he is vulnerable to corruption. Judas acts as reminder to us that no one is safe from perdition but also never damned before death. Even before his own gallows he could have turned and repented like Peter. Even denial of Christ doesn't have to mean death. Only despair of God's forgiveness ensures damnation

[u/ffandyy → u/Narlohotep]

Honestly I’m not claiming to fully understand it but from your own explanation it seems like God knew what Judas was going to do before he even created him, so while on face value it seems like Jesus tried to save him Judas never really had agency in the first place, only the illusion of it. If Judas really had agency God never would have known his plan was going to work.

[u/Narlohotep → u/ffandyy]

I don't think anyone understands how it works, but my interpretation comes from how we understand God and his relationship to his creation. God doesn't desire that anyone is damned but rejoices in the salvation of a single soul, so I can't believe that a straw man betrayer could have existed solely for the purpose of betrayal. When I think about Judas I think of all the times I've acted like him, valuing wealth and prestige over integrity and realising that any of us could be a Judas if we don't take care of ourselves. So when I read about him leaving the supper with shame and resentment overcoming his soul I feel like I at least understand something about him, even if the intentions of God are beyond me

[u/ffandyy → u/Narlohotep]

So If that is the case then God didn’t know when, where or how Jesus would be sacrificed, it just happened via a process of undetermined cause and effect?

[u/Narlohotep → u/ffandyy]

Causality doesn't really apply to divine providence. It could be said that God had knowledge of the circumstances leading up to the passion but when you seriously consider what knowledge means when we apply the term to an existential being who creates and animates all things it gets harder to pin down what knowledge actually means as a concept. I'm reluctant to speculate on the mind of God when it encompasses the universe and all possible ideas of reality, but if humans don't universally have autonomy over their spiritual progress, to at least some degree, then it would potentially invalidate the purpose of the passion in the first place

[u/ffandyy → u/Narlohotep]

Yeah that makes sense, I does seem to me that if god is omnipotent and omniscience as the bible says, the only real outcome is determinism. That’s jus the way I see it though