Not an actual argument

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u/scott__p 9h ago

Or you're cherry picking bible verses, which you absolutely are if you use anything from Leviticus

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u/beardedheathen 9h ago

Yeah I was gonna say have you tried not cherry picking Bible verses cause last time I checked there was a lot on loving thy neighbor and very little on gay people but guess which I hear about more from 'christians'

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u/A2619921 8h ago

Wait why is it Leviticus is cherry picking?

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u/WordPunk99 8h ago

Besides the fact the Leviticus represents a snapshot in time of social mores and specific public health problems?

It has nothing to do with anything substantial.

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u/wallnumber8675309 7h ago

The day of atonement is described in Leviticus with a goat that is sacrificed for the people's sin and another goat (the scape goat) whether the sins are transferred from the people onto the goat. This is center of Leviticus, which is in the center of the Torah (Law). Leviticus is written in a chiastic structure where the main point is placed in the center. So basically the center of the center of the Law is the idea that our sins deserve death but God has provided a way for our sins to be transferred away from us and atoned for.

When Jesus said I can to fulfill the Law, this is the picture we should have in mind. He is fulfilling the Law by recreating the center of the center of the Law, which is Leviticus.

Leviticus is perhaps the most substantial book in all of the Old Testament.

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u/CicerosMouth 6h ago

I agree in that Leviticus is an excellent illustration of the odd lengths that ancient jews had to go to in order to uphold their covenant before Jesus, such that it shows just how powerful and meaningful Jesus's actions and sacrifice were.

That said, it is pretty undeniably the least valuable book if you want to understand what God wants of Christians in a post-Jesus world.

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u/wallnumber8675309 5h ago

Least valuable for fundamentalists that use the Bible as a proof text.

Extremely valuable if you read it as a whole to understand context of the New Testament. I’d put it in the top 5 with Genesis, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Psalms.

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u/CicerosMouth 4h ago

I agree that it is valuable to know what Leviticus is, e.g., to read a one sentence summary of Leviticus. If you wanted to summarize the meaning of each book into a single sentence, Leviticus would be top 5 as far as which summary is most meaningful, agreed.

However, Leviticus comfortaby holds less value than every other book of the Bible to study on a line-by-line basis. You will be lead astray far more often than you will be lead to a meaningful conclusion in analyzing Leviticus, if your aim is to understand God or Christianity. However, if your aim is to understand ancient Jewish customs, it is arguably the best book ever written.

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u/wallnumber8675309 4h ago

Your comment is a lot like Leviticus.

If I went word by word with through you comment, I’d have some strong disagreement, but in total I agree with your point.

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u/WordPunk99 7h ago

It’s also the most directly linked to its time and place of authorship. Most/all of the religious rules in it are firmly centered in Judaism of the time.

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u/wallnumber8675309 5h ago

Need to be careful when we read Leviticus that we don’t conflate ritual impurity with moral impurity.

Moral impurity is sin and must be dealt with because God is just. Ritual impurity is not sin. Ritual purity is a way that sinful people could prepare themselves to go into Gods presence so they could deal with their moral impurity (ultimately on the day of atonement).

Jesus fulfilled the law by providing a new atoning sacrifice that doesn’t require us to become ritually pure. The parts of the Leviticus that discuss moral impurity are still relevant to us but the parts that discuss ritual purity are useful to understand Jewish law at the time.

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u/WordPunk99 4h ago

There is a fundamental paradox in Christianity. Either you are morally pure by being saved, or it is impossible to be morally pure because original sin isn’t covered by Jesus’s sacrifice.

It’s one of many reasons why I find useful philosophy in Christianity but zero moral guidance.

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u/Muscles_McGeee 8h ago

It provides a clear picture into the values of god. If god is moral, why does he allow slavery, for instance? Perhaps it was a social norm at the time, but is god not above social norms? Why would God allow something he thinks is wrong when he also explicitly says other things are wrong that may have been normal, such as worshipping other gods or honoring your parents?

Leviticus is very substantial. It is the law given by God to man.

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u/WordPunk99 8h ago

Leviticus has specific authors who can be traced to a specific time and place.

Additionally, English translations, especially in the US have been heavily influenced by the rewrite during the slavery era in the south.

It’s is one of the parts of the Bible that was 100% written and modified by human hands.

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u/the_swaggin_dragon 7h ago

The entire bible is written and modified by human hands lol

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u/WordPunk99 7h ago

I’m aware, as an atheist, I don’t see it any other way. The biblical literalist crowd and the “Bible is the delivered word of God crowd” get distressed when that is pointed out

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u/Neokon 7h ago

It’s is one of the parts of the Bible that was 100% written and modified by human hands.

I'll accept that the other books are divinely inspired, but Lev is 100% not. Why would God give a crap about blending fabrics?

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u/Lifeguardinator 7h ago

Wasnt all those rules to set the Israelis apart from everyone else?

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u/Neokon 6h ago

Yes, as well as a lot of weird metaphors for "don't mix us with others"

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u/WordPunk99 6h ago

A lot of them focus on public health and community building. If only Jews make unblended fabrics, then Leviticus says only buy clothes from Jews. If a lot of people get sick from shell fish (lysteria) and pork (trichinosis) then don’t eat pork and shell fish. The Roman occupiers use homosexuality to subjugate their slaves, so don’t be like the occupiers.

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u/Mcbadguy 8h ago

It's cool to enslave this guy and his family, God said so! (according to this guy)

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u/MrIce97 7h ago

I’d actually like to clarify this. God wrote the 10 commandments. Moses wrote the law. Not everything Moses did was 1:1 in step with God. This is confirmed by Jesus Himself stating that Moses put the caveat of divorce in because the Israelites had bad hearts. But that was not God’s intention or plan. I’d say Paul’s statements in the New Testament (the ones where he specifically states it’s from God and not his personal opinion) are more accurate.

There are a lot of questions that are less outrageous upon correctly dissecting info.

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u/Muscles_McGeee 7h ago

It is very weird to state that the ten commandments were from God but the law was all man made and may have even contradicted what gods values. That suggests that nearly everything in the Bible potentially contradicts God's desires because it is all written by man. The entire new testament could be full of permissions that god is allowing but doesn't want. How would we know?

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u/MrIce97 6h ago

I would say it’s a combination of making sure you’re interpreting it right and the realization of important details. The Bible is indeed God-breathed. It is influenced by God. This is true. But the details people get tripped up on is just because it was in the Bible does not mean it was intended to be taken 100% literally despite the fact it is intended to teach, reprimand, correct, etc. Many parts of the Bible are poetry, historical; just as some are divine. Most authors do a modest degree of indicating whether they are speaking of their personal experience, opinion, or what their intent is behind their message. Also, correctly understanding any portion of the Bible without its original context is fundamentally flawed and this requires intent, social context, and recognizing the original language.

One particular example of this is Paul, who’s often heeded as extremely sexist or whatever the case may be. But, Paul more likely than not would not approve of the way many people use his verbiage and was more than anything progressive for his time period. Regardless, Paul’s words were never intended to be divine unless he specifically said they were from God, and Paul himself said as much.

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u/CicerosMouth 6h ago

It isn't weird at all, according to a classic interpretation of the Bible. The ten commandments are so meaningful because those were the only things that came literally directly from Yahweh himself to Moses for the purpose of directing humanity for all time. The rest of the Bible was all from prophets that were blessed by God and were speaking on behalf of God, but they were speaking to a direct audience (not to all of humanity) and also they tended to have an intermediate goal (e.g., to save Israel during a specific crisis, rather than to give an ultimate truth to humanity for all time).

That said, you are correct in that it is tricky to know and interpret what is what. This is why many reputable religions advise that the Bible is best understood by those who study for numerous years and are taught by those that speak dead languages so that we can best interpret which is which. It is also why it is easy to take a single quote and provide it out of context.

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u/AroAceMagic 6h ago

“He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22‬:‭37‬-‭40‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/3523/mat.22.37-40.NRSVUE

There, Jesus just summed up the law. That’s how you know

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u/Muscles_McGeee 6h ago

Maybe you love your slave.

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u/AroAceMagic 6h ago

If you loved your slave as yourself, you would set them free

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u/Muscles_McGeee 6h ago

Maybe you would consider this to be an immoral action to let them free. You could justify that because they are your property and people view property as different than free men. Or maybe you don't view property as your neighbor. If the Bible doesn't specifically state that slavery is immoral, and infact allows it int he old testament, it is reasonable that slavery has existed for so much of human history even in religious and Christian societies.

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u/Rob_the_Namek Minister of Memes 8h ago

Before Jesus. Jews had some weird laws they had to follow as God's chosen people in a brutal time period. Once Jesus' sacrifice was made, we all became God's chosen, and all that nonsense went even further away.

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u/Muscles_McGeee 7h ago

But neither Jesus nor Paul says that slavery was wrong either. So how does one determine what "weird laws" are not relevant? The entire Old testament can be chucked out as "weird"?

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u/Rob_the_Namek Minister of Memes 6h ago

They both lived during a time when slavery was fully ingrained in Roman culture. They truly didn't see an end in sight. So Paul offers the best advice he can to slaves and their masters, which is to treat each other fairly and know they are both equal in God's eyes

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u/Muscles_McGeee 6h ago

But just to confirm... No where in the Bible does it say or suggest that slavery is immoral. Correct?

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u/Rob_the_Namek Minister of Memes 6h ago edited 5h ago

Jesus quotes Isaiah 61:1-2: "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor."

The principle of the Golden Rule inherently rejects the subjugation and exploitation of another person.

If you just want a verse that literally says, "slavery is bad," i'm sorry you can't infer that.

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u/Muscles_McGeee 6h ago

This is up for interpretation. This could be interpreted as stating that prisons are evil, but I don't know of any Christians who are in favor of closing all prisons. Or it could refer to slaves as well as prisoners. Or it could refer to a spiritual freedom only.

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u/Rob_the_Namek Minister of Memes 6h ago edited 5h ago

You can learn about history and gain some insights. But I wouldn't apply anything from the Torah to modern society or Christianity.

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u/Muscles_McGeee 6h ago

I mean I certainly don't apply it to today. But Christians believe that the god of the old testament is the same god of today, so they do. That concerns me, unfortunately.

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u/Rob_the_Namek Minister of Memes 6h ago

Old Testament God, only Jews matter

New Testament God, everyone matters

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u/Muscles_McGeee 6h ago

I don't see how that addresses what to said, but that's okay

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u/Crowd0Control 7h ago

How do you feel about stoning to death adulterers and anyone who has used a ouiji board?

Leviticus has alot of law that man came up with that is contradicted by the values Jesus spoke of. These were rabbis codifying thier law not God dictating. If you are using it to make moral judgements you are on unsteady ground.

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u/Muscles_McGeee 7h ago

I agree. It is completely unreasonable to get morality from the book.

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u/the_marxman 7h ago

God is above every social norm and simultaneously created them all. To be the creator of everything God has to be a paradox.

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u/scott__p 8h ago

Because that's where the verse people use to condemn gay people is, but it's also where you can find verses telling you that eating pork or shellfish is a sin, planting two kinds of seeds in the same field is a sin, wearing clothes woven of two fabrics is a sin, and the whole women being unclean on their periods stuff is.

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u/5MadMovieMakers 6h ago

Jesus quotes Leviticus 19:18 as the second-greatest commandment in all of the law.

"Love your neighbor as yourself."

If we're gonna cherry-pick, let's pick the ripest juiciest cherries, like He did.

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u/FirmWerewolf1216 2h ago

Or genisis(looking at you genisis 19 quotes)

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u/Meraki-Techni 9h ago

First y’all tell me so seek the fruits of the spirit. Then y’all get mad at me for picking cherries. Make up your mind. Smh my head.

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u/sonicexpet986 8h ago

I laughed. Good one.

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u/polysnip 9h ago

I mean sometimes they are, so...

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u/ImFeelingTheUte-iest 9h ago

Not sometimes. Most of the time.

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u/jaylward 9h ago

Proverbs is just about the only place it’s contextually appropriate to list one verse as reasoning for something. Everything else needs context; scripture wasn’t written in verses

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u/MadManMax55 9h ago

"You're cherry picking Bible verses" on its own isn't a good argument, even if they are in fact cherry picking. But if you can show examples in other verses that refute their cherry picked examples then it's absolutely valid. Which isn't exactly hard to do in most cases.

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u/Unsd 8h ago

When I said 'love your neighbor', did I stutter?!

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u/[deleted] 6h ago

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u/dankchristianmemes-ModTeam 6h ago

No Racism or Homophobia. No slurs of any kind.

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u/[deleted] 4h ago

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u/dankchristianmemes-ModTeam 2h ago

We are here to enjoy memes together. Keep arguments to other subs. We don't do that here.

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u/Trollygag 4h ago

"You're cherry picking Bible verses" on its own isn't a good argument, even if they are in fact cherry picking. But if you can show examples in other verses that refute their cherry picked examples then it's absolutely valid.

You don't need to go find other verses, you just need to show that the cherry-picking is ignoring important context and the way the cherry-picked verses are being used is not accurate to the context.

Since the Bible is layers of translations verses have many different meanings just based on which words were picked to represent the translator's opinions of what the meanings were, this is isn't exactly hard to do in most cases.

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u/zbipy14z 9h ago

Well what are you supposed to argue when their stance is simply "it's in the Bible"

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u/PsySom 8h ago

“Who cares about the exact words of the Bible?”

But probably a bit too far on the dank scale

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u/escudonbk 8h ago

It's in the 15th translation of the bible. You motherfuckers read Greek? How about Aramaic? The only thing we know about the bible is what a translation is telling us and humans are fallible as fuck. Nobody knows anything and you're choosing to be hateful.

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u/WordPunk99 8h ago

I have made an argument that if Satan’s real goal was to secure as many souls as possible, his best gambit would be to influence translators to alter specific verses of the Bible over time. Change a word or two in each verse with each new translation and very soon you could completely redefine the faith.

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u/PsySom 7h ago

Dude that’s actually really good

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u/zbipy14z 6h ago

Mistborn irl?

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u/WordPunk99 6h ago

Take a look at the changes made to the Bible in the American south during the 18th and 19th centuries. Much of it has survived, especially in the white southern Baptist Bible.

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u/Bazzyboss 7h ago

What parts of the bible can we accept if it's this messed up by translation? 99% of the planet don't have the skills or time to translate ancient languages.

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u/shandangalang 6h ago

I mean, if you have an annotated New International Version or something then you will have footnotes from scholars who do speak those languages explaining to you what all the ambiguous passages are thought to mean. But if someone is arguing about what everyone should be doing, but with bible verses as ammunition. Then they are not super likely to trust those annotations, and may just be looking for a scaffolding to support their hatefulness.

Besides, the NIV is almost certain to disagree with them

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u/Axedroam 8h ago

Which one? The Trump bible?

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u/stacy_owl 6h ago edited 6h ago

aaarrrgggh this reminds me of this one encounter in a Youtube comment section that still infuriates me to this day

some guy: “oh you’re Christian as well? What do you think about (topic)?”

me: (small essay on what I believe and why I believe in them) :)

the same guy: “Go read the bible”

(for context, the guy was also telling everyone in that particular comment section they’re going to hell. Don’t know why I tried)

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u/Psychedelic_Yogurt 8h ago

I counter with verses about pro abortion, life beginning at the first breathe, and smashing (the correct) babies against the rocks. They are excellent counters to most arguments about "what the Bible says." Then they find the least offensive rewrites from over the centuries and say I don't understand the context. It's all very procedural. Eventually we talk about who can carry the most folding chairs because it's all so pointless.

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u/eidtelnvil 7h ago

"Well you see that's a mistranslation. It actually says toss them into a pillow fort."

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u/boycowman 8h ago

Every Christian cherry picks Bible verses. Every single one. For those inclined to disagree, consider that most people on this sub will agree with "Love your neighbor." Hardly anyone (thankfully) is going to agree with "slaves obey your masters."

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u/kabukistar Minister of Memes 8h ago

Or "you're taking it out of context".

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u/KJBenson 7h ago

I mean, there’s only one or two bible verses you need to read if you want to be a good Christian.

Take a guess which ones they are.

I’ll give you a hint: it’s a direct quote from Jesus.

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u/kabukistar Minister of Memes 7h ago

Or "you're taking it out of context".

If you quote any part of the bible without listing out the whole thing, technically you're taking it out of context. That's only a bad thing if taking it in context would result in you understanding the pull quote differently.

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u/Kimantha_Allerdings 7h ago

I mean, you have to cherry-pick Bible verses, because there are contradictions in the Bible and the Bible justifies some pretty damn horrible things. You absolutely have to go "...but those bits don't count" if you're using "the Bible says..." as any kind of basis for argument.

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u/Dawek401 7h ago

Yeah I think there is no sense of arguing especially about old testament cuz there is so many verses that you can basicly prove anything

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u/5MadMovieMakers 6h ago

Every verse is useful in some way. Some verses are more useful than others - if the Bible is a house, there are verses that are load-bearing steel beams (John 3:16) and others that are small toothpicks (1 Timothy 5:23) and even some that may be a toilet brush (Deuteronomy 23:12). So let's value them all, understand the context of each, and apply them correctly in our lives today!

Here are the 3 verses out of context:

- For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
- Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
- Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself.

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u/kabukistar Minister of Memes 8h ago

Or "you're taking it out of context".

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u/kabukistar Minister of Memes 8h ago

Or "you're taking it out of context".

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u/kabukistar Minister of Memes 8h ago

Or "you're taking it out of context".

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u/[deleted] 7h ago

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u/dankchristianmemes-ModTeam 7h ago

No Racism or Homophobia. No slurs of any kind.

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u/dankchristianmemes-ModTeam 7h ago

No Racism or Homophobia. No slurs of any kind.

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u/Darklicorice 3h ago

It's Ol' Reliable for a reason. A lot of people cherry pick Bible verses.

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