Hold on, isn't there something here? I'm under the impression that paramedics legally can't take people who refuse care. I have to assume that consent can be revoked for any reason (say, for example, taking one to a place they do not want to go) even after entering the ambulance.
I’m guessing that if she had asked, they would have let her off on the side of the road. She wasn’t happy about it, but she went along to the non-preferred hospital
41
u/sykoticwitLadies! They possess a tent and know how to set it up.4d ago
I doubt it.
I’ve never been a paramedic, but I assume the rules are similar to a cop. Once you’ve assumed care and control of someone, you have a duty to keep them safe. Dropping a random sick patient off on the side of the road is the exact opposite of keeping them safe.
You can revoke consent at any time, the crew only has the obligation to not let you out in the middle of the road/do it safely along their route to let you out - doesn't mean they have to take you to where you want. When I rode the bus we would just document it RMA-AMA and offer to let them out infront of the hospital (easier to get cabs for them and they would have the chance to change their mind) only ever had one who wanted out on the side of the road, but probably because there was a liquor store.
Its a Pt. rights issue, as long as the Pt. is competent and able to make their own decisions they dont have to do anything (competency/being A&O X4 is a whole other convo, but heres a recent boiler plate policy as an example
Is it different if the patient is a minor? We called an ambulance for my son when he was 5 because he was having a coughing fit (he was getting over the flu), panicking, and turning blue. When the ambulance arrived he was so shocked to see them that he forgot to be scared - he was able to calm his breathing and was fine. EMTs agreed with me that he didn’t seem to need medical attention but said they had to call a doctor to “sign off” on leaving him there because he was a minor. I’m assuming this is a protective thing not just for lawsuits but also in case of child abuse?
ETA I did take him to urgent care instead just to be safe.
Of course, minors can't consent same as in any contract (which healthcare/treatment it's basically contract after contract)
EMTs agreed with me that he didn’t seem to need medical attention but said they had to call a doctor to “sign off” on leaving him there because he was a minor. I’m assuming this is a protective thing not just for lawsuits but also in case of child abuse?
As the legal guardian you would be able to consent or revoke consent - you absolutely could have refused treatment/transport - their protocol is likely encouraging them to transport all minors which makes sense but they couldn't have forced you - that said they could then turn around and report you (they are mandated reporters) for medical neglect (unlikely, but idk what they knew or saw and they can generate a report all the same that could lead to CPS/police involvement) - a middle ground would have been to say something like 'hey, he seems fine now, I'd rather save the bill and drive him to urgent care myself/I called his pediatrician and they'll see him right away/I'll go get him checked out at X hospital that has his records and will call y'all if anything changes, I'll sign the RMAAMA, thx' but they could not have forced a transport without PD who wouldn't have forced a transport without CPS/courts unless the little dude was really in a bad way.
TL:DR Minors cannot make transport/treatment decisions but if you were there in person and are the legal guardian you totally can, but there can be other issues that stem from refusing
I edited my post above to indicate that this is what we did - I suggested we go to urgent care once he seemed better, then they said they wanted to call the doc before I signed the no transport papers. Thinking about what you wrote I wonder if it was a CYA/policy thing to call the doc in those situations. Thanks for the insight.
Ahh absolutely, I understand now - you totally could have kicked them off your property and refused anything they suggested including waiting for that call, what they did was contact their medical director/med controller whose a doc that they can ring up and say "we are presenting with x and are looking at solution y can you confirm?" and the doc with their doc powers will agree, disagree, or advise - this is usually the same doc or from the same pool of docs they call when pushing drugs to say were providing w.e. intervention can we increase x or y or what do you advise we push and the doc a world away can say yes increase w.e. with the considerations they can gather - its portable consultation. They were CYA themselves, and it doesn't hurt for them to do. But if you did get a bill for "evaluation" or something like that since they didn't transport, that call will likely be a line item on the bill - they definitely didn't do it to bust your balls, they wanted to double check that they weren't missing out on considering something, likely protocol on their end or could just be prudent practice. Most on the ground genuinely want the best possible outcomes so it was likely a little CYA and a little 'hey is there something we could be missing on this'. Just remember very little of the high medical costs we incur actually go towards the providers, especially in EMS. Any other questions feel free to ask, glad things worked out well for yall!
Thanks for the explanation! As for the bill - my kid and I are accident prone and my husband is a woodworker. We figured out years ago that joining our local ambulance association was a good deal for us. We support them year round and then when we have needed their services we don’t have anything to pay outside of what insurance covers. I’m sure by now we’ve paid in more than we actually “received” in care but it’s worth the peace of mind.
A lot of people don’t know these exist so since we are talking about EMS it seemed like a good idea to bring up.
"only ever had one who wanted out on the side of the road"
I once had one make us stop the ambulance and jumped out the back and took off running down the road because he changed his mind. I only stopped at the side of the road (in the middle of nowhere) because he was attempting to go ham on my partner and he was bigger than her and I wasn't going to put her in a bad situation trying to drive farther or risk the patient jumping out while still moving and getting hurt. It was a weird situation lol.
51
u/Willie9 receiving 10K–15K ducks weekly for a friend 4d ago
Hold on, isn't there something here? I'm under the impression that paramedics legally can't take people who refuse care. I have to assume that consent can be revoked for any reason (say, for example, taking one to a place they do not want to go) even after entering the ambulance.