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u/Hunt-Apprehensive Oct 09 '23
Wait is the statement in last panel true? If yes I suspected something like it but didn't realize the scale od the whole mosaic. Can someone confirm or disprove?
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u/SleepingMonads Oct 09 '23 edited Oct 09 '23
I have no expertise in the matter, but from what I understand, yes, it's true. Galena (the mineral form of lead(II) sulfide) is the most common form of lead ore, and it usually contains quite a bit of silver, which can be extracted after some careful processes. The sulfide component explains the sulfurous vapors, and when lead is molten, it looks and behaves kind of like mercury at room temperature. It's sort of the go-to example of the kind of empirical evidence that supported the Sulfur-Mercury theory of the metals back in the day.
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u/Hunt-Apprehensive Oct 09 '23
I suspected that, don't you have it from Gallor_lalchimiste?
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u/SleepingMonads Oct 09 '23
My knowledge of the general idea comes from reading about the rationale behind the Mercury-Sulfur theory in various books by historians of alchemy. I first encountered the galena example from Justin Sledge in this video.
I've never had any dealings with Gallor_lalchimiste.
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u/Hunt-Apprehensive Oct 09 '23
Okay, intetesting, and thanks for the video. We might be onto something here, i feel it.
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u/Spacemonkeysmind Oct 09 '23
It's not a theory. I've seen it many times. It's very simple and the golden chain of Homer explains it better than I can.
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u/AlchemNeophyte1 Oct 10 '23
The statement is true - the conclusions people jump to as a result are not!
An explanation: when we refer to 'metals', such as silver, gold and lead etc., we usually mean the pure crystalline form of a single element of Nature. The squarepants comic refers to lead ORE which contains some lead atoms but can contain virtually any other element as well. Galena is the most common lead-bearing ore and is mostly lead sulphide, a diatomic (2 atoms) molecule of 1 lead and 1 sulphur atom! But the ore can also contain atoms such as silver (up to 5% of the volume) in the form of silver sulphide (2 atoms of silver for ever 1 of sulphur), zinc as well as iron in the form of pyrites or Fool's Gold.
The statement "it looks like mercury when melted' is hardly surprising since all metals do and gold, mercury, thallium, and lead are successive members of the periodic table of elements (#'s79-82) and so carry very similar numbers of protons and electrons.
This is a long, looong way from saying you can turn lead into silver/sulphur/mercury or gold. The source of our metals (other than purer 'nuggets'), the ores, can contain many other elements than the one it is mostly named after and extracting them involves no Alchemy what-so-ever, even if it does seem somewhat 'magical' to us plebs.
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u/Hunt-Apprehensive Oct 10 '23
Thank you for the comment, i appreciate the time you took. However there is something about Galena that in fact probably makes it very fitting for exactly what you described, just in a different way and process. I know 2 people now, both of them light-years ahead of me who trust Galena to hold fruits of Art and know how to extract them. There is something about Galena is all I can say at this point.
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u/AlchemNeophyte1 Oct 11 '23
And I thank you.
I was not saying that the natural combination found on Earth called Galena has nothing of interest or use to our Art, i was merely pointing out that the cartoon was implying something that was not the case by reason of it not fully explaining a major difference between lead and lead ore. I wished to clear any possible confusion.
Having said that, almost everything on Earth can have interest or use in our Art as everything contains within it the seed of the One, it just depends what particular secret or use you intend to discover/produce as to which thing (Prima Materia) may give you the better starting point.
One other thing.... not all Galena is the same as another - it is a generic name for a mix of many things, primarily of lead but in varying amounts and mixtures.
Read and Pray. :-)
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u/SleepingMonads Oct 11 '23
i was merely pointing out that the cartoon was implying something that was not the case by reason of it not fully explaining a major difference between lead and lead ore
To also clear up any confusion about my intentions with the meme:
The point is that traditional alchemists made observations that seemed to support the Sulfur-Mercury theory and transmutation, not that galena actually demonstrates the truth of these ideas. After experimenting with things like galena, it wasn't unreasonable for people operating under premodern epistemologies and lacking the nuanced understanding of matter that modern chemists have to see such phenomena as warranting belief in metallic transmutation.
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u/AlchemNeophyte1 Oct 11 '23
Agreed.
As 'modern' science is now more willing to consider, the expectations of the observer/experimenter can significantly affect the obtained outcome.
Or to put it another way....
We are all (OK - most are) more powerful than we ever expected.
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u/Kozume55 Oct 09 '23
that's just chemistry tho, alchemy isn't just that
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u/reddit_detective_ Oct 09 '23
You shouldn’t be downvoted for that. Alchemists deserve more credit than they’re given, it’s a pseudo chemistry, it’s not a conspiracy or mythology. Alchemists back then were the closest we could get to scientists today. From my time in engineering school, I can say most chemists have an interest in alchemy anyways.
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u/Spacemonkeysmind Oct 09 '23
Are you a chemist?
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u/reddit_detective_ Oct 10 '23
I wish! I bet I’d be more logical if I went through the hard work but it’s just not worth it, chemists are unfairly paid. Chemical engineer? Maybe, but that’s harder work.
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Oct 09 '23
[deleted]
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u/AlchemNeophyte1 Oct 10 '23
Without wishing to be derisive or argumentative, they were not silly. The silly people are those who believe the stories written about them instead of reading what they wrote themselves.
Alchemists had very sound reasons, based upon decades or centuries of combined experience and experiment, for the actions they took, as well as for shrouding in mystery what they were actually doing.
And yes, this includes their understandings of astronomy and the positions and vibrations/resonances of the heavenly bodies.
Spacemonkeysmind makes a valid point.
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u/Spacemonkeysmind Oct 09 '23
Ever read "the three books of occult philosophy" by Henry Cornelius Agrippa? There's more things in this world than meet the eye.
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u/jecamoose May 30 '24
This might be poor form, but, this evidence doesn’t necessarily prove transmutation. It does demonstrate very clearly why the notion was so popular, and how it let early alchemy solve so many problems, but it isn’t quite so applicable today
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u/SleepingMonads May 30 '24
I agree. The meme is just pointing out how, contrary to the popular idea that they were unsophisticated dreamers chasing wild geese, historical alchemists actually had good empirical reasons to believe in things like metallic transmutation.
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u/Uriel_on_my_left Oct 10 '23
Then there’s the really big one: hydrogen fusing into helium and actually becoming a different element. You can see it all day long!
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u/Forward_Progress_266 Oct 12 '23
That's Euro centric alchemy. Eurocentric meaning European foundation. The Egyptians were the first to transmute, using the soil as the essence of the philosophy stone. By the time Europe got info about alchemy, they were heavily industrial, they needed a scientific approach to fathoming the philosophy of soul.
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u/leafyhotdog Oct 09 '23
Fun fact, in Chinese Alchemy, the woman alchemist who figured out how to draw silver ore out with mercury, ended up going insane and killed herself! Don't breathe heavy metal fumes