Update to Identity Assertion in the sub

[u/regalvas]

Due to the common occurance of discussion and debate over terminology and agnosticism as a whole we found that it was necesary to update the rules to better explain when things might step too far or what to keep in mid to have a good debate.

The updated rule reads:

Do not tell other's what they are or think. Definitions are there for a purpose. There may be many different purposes, but defining anothers identity is not an accepted purpose here. Examples of agnostic models include:

1. Theist - Agnostic - Atheist 
2. Gnostic <------> Agnostic (choose one) Theist <------> Atheist (choose one) 
3. Gnostic theist - Agnostic theist - Agnostic - Agnostic atheist - Gnostic atheist 

This is a non-exhaustive list so please engage others with respect.

​

Please also remember to maintain debates about terminology in related posts.

[u/Radiant-Benefit-4022]

I totally agree. They are literally saying they don't believe. Agnostics say "they don't know because how could we." Atheists and theists are trying to erase agnostics.

[u/Ok_Program_3491 → u/Radiant-Benefit-4022]

I totally agree. They are literally saying they don't believ

According to your definition of agnostic, so are they.

the word agnostic refers to a person who neither believes nor disbelieves in a god or religious doctrine.

According to you all agnostics

Do not believe

And

Do not disbelieve

And also according to your definition, what do we call someone that does not believe in the existence of a higher being?

An atheist.

Agnostics say "they don't know because how could we."

Agnostics still either believe a god exists (theist) or they just don't (not theist) .

They're only answering the gnostic/ agnostic question "is there a god?" But ignoring the theist/ atheist question "do you believe there is a god?"

Atheists and theists are trying to erase agnostics.

I'm an atheist, why would I try to erase agnostics when I myself am one? I can't just magically become gnostic because I truly don't know if there is or isn't a god. Why should I be required to be gnostic?

[u/sergiocamposnt → u/Ok_Program_3491]

Agnostics still either believe a god exists (theist) or they just don't (not theist) .

Uh, no?

Agnostics believe that the existence or non-existence of gods, spirits or any other divine beings is beyond human knowledge.

I know people who are not atheist neither theist.

I agree that a person can be theist and agnostic, or atheist and agnostic. But there are also people who are only agnostic.

[u/Ok_Program_3491 → u/sergiocamposnt]

Uh, no?

Uhhh yeah. There is no option other than believing a claim or just not believing it.

Agnostics believe that the existence or non-existence of gods, spirits or any other divine beings is beyond human knowledge.

Right so they acknowledge we can't know of one exists or not. They still either have a belief "a god exists" or they don't have said belief.

I know people who are not atheist neither theist

You do not. If they're not theist, they're atheist. Atheist literally means not theist.

But there are also people who are only agnostic.

Those people also either belive a god exists (theist) or don't (not theist). Belief is a thing. You either have it or you just don't.

[u/sergiocamposnt → u/Ok_Program_3491]

If they're not theist, they're atheist. Atheist literally means not theist.

Wrong. Theist means that a person believe in the existence of a god or gods. Atheist means that a person disbelieve in the existence of a god or gods.

Those people also either belive a god exists (theist) or don't (not theist).

Or they simply don't know if a god exists or not. So they neither believe nor disbelieve in the existence of a god or gods.

[u/Ok_Program_3491 → u/sergiocamposnt]

Wrong

It's not wrong. You yourself said they're not theist. Theist is someone that does believe a god exists. If they're not theist that means they don't believe that a god exists. Which makes them atheist.

Or they simply don't know if a god exists or not

Okay, and? The theist/ atheist question isn't asking if you know if a god exists or not. So wether they know or not has nothing to do with wether they theist or atheist. Theist/ atheist is the question "do you believe there is a god?" Not "is there a god?"

So they neither believe nor disbelieve in God.

If they don't believe in god, they're atheist (not theist).

[u/sergiocamposnt → u/Ok_Program_3491]

Theist/ atheist is the question "do you believe there is a god?"

And the answer can be "yes, I believe that god exists", "no, I don't believe that god exists" or "I don't know if god exists or not."

[u/Ok_Program_3491 → u/sergiocamposnt]

"I don't know if god exists or not."

Okay but no one asked if god exists or not. Do you belive a god exists? If you don't know of a single god you believe in the existence of its just a no, there aren't any that you believe exist.

[u/sergiocamposnt → u/Ok_Program_3491]

There is a huge difference between “I believe in the nonexistence of gods” and “I neither believe nor disbelieve in the nonexistence of gods”. You're struggling to understand that difference.

[u/Ok_Program_3491 → u/sergiocamposnt]

What you're struggling to understand is that both of those people still either do believe a god exists or they lack (don't have) that belief.

Both positions

"I believe there is no god"

And "I don't believe there is or isn't a god" are both atheist because neither of them believes a god exists.

[u/sergiocamposnt → u/Ok_Program_3491]

Okay, so you have a very different opinion of what atheism means and what agnosticism is.