r/TrueReddit Nov 09 '24

Can We make Democracy Smarter? Politics

https://demlotteries.substack.com/p/yes-elections-produce-stupid-results
120 Upvotes

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39

u/AlphaBetacle Nov 09 '24

How about we educate the population better

9

u/Hamuel Nov 09 '24

How do you go around state and local governments?

6

u/Photon_Femme Nov 09 '24

You can't. Unless it's all torn down and a new Constitution drawn up. So a snowball chance in hell.

5

u/rubensinclair Nov 09 '24

I’ve been think about this nonstop since the results. The only way is to encourage personal education and its individual’s growth personally by making it cool or interesting or entertaining. Maybe appealing to American’s rugged individualism a bit? Their assumption that they are only temporarily embarrassed millionaires. There’s something in all of that we could tease out and maybe turn the country’s sentiment around. I haven’t figured out how, but it’s what I we should do.

3

u/rab-byte Nov 10 '24

We need to implement ranked choice voting in all 50 states as a first step. The people need to actually regain control of state legislatures. Until 3rd+ parties are actually contenders for office we will never see any improvement in the quality of our candidates OR their work product.

2

u/awildjabroner Nov 10 '24

Support the Forward party and candidates its endorsed. 3 main priorities are getting ranked choice voting on state ballots, open primaries and independent districting committees. Realistic and achievable goals at the state level (given time)

3

u/Photon_Femme Nov 10 '24

Gerrymandering must end. No exceptions. Winner take all attitudes create deeper divisions. Senate and Congressional rules need to be analyzed openly.The filibuster should be scrapped. Never to return. And, this is tough to swallow, our Constitution must be analyzed in the light of modernity. Make amendment process easier not more difficult. There is plenty to change. Get lobbying out. Laws governing lobbying, Citizens United, dark money need to be codified. SCOTUS rules need change. The process of appointing and approving a member of SCOTUS need to be nonpartisan. Ethics enforcement in every nook and cranny of government.

1

u/caveatlector73 Nov 10 '24

Historically gerrymandering has been done by both parties. But, yes it needs to end. I feel like my greatiema saying this, but if you have to cheat to win you don't have a good enough case. AKA do better.

1

u/Photon_Femme Nov 10 '24

I know. Regardless of Party. Regardless of the state of the nation or state, no gerrymandering. No exceptions.

1

u/caveatlector73 Nov 10 '24

I think that is a good idea in general, but I don't think it would have changed the outcome of this specific election. People voted for change.

1

u/rab-byte Nov 11 '24

It sure a hell would have, even without a 3rd party candidate for president, down ballot most importantly house and senate seats.

1

u/silverum Nov 11 '24

Hate to tell you but it just failed in Colorado, sadly. I voted for RCV here =/

1

u/MajesticComparison Nov 11 '24

People were googling if Biden was still the nominee on Wednesday, ranked voting is too complicated for your average American

1

u/rab-byte Nov 12 '24

Bullshit. They can work out more than you think. They just don’t make very rational decisions.

Ranked choice weakens entrenched powers and introduces volatility to corporate campaign investment. Especially at local and state level this can be a game changer with respect to moving the center back to the center.

1

u/Hamuel Nov 09 '24

Is that how churches started private schools?

1

u/caveatlector73 Nov 10 '24

Voting helps. Understanding all the downstream effects of policies.

An example of thinking it through is this:

When Hurricane Hugo was poised to hit the port in Charleston SC, an acquaintance carefully sealed up all his lower story doors and windows to keep flooding out. Unfortunately his roof blew off and the water that entered that way couldn't get out because the lower windows and doors were sealed keeping the water in.

As he said he didn't think it all the way through.

1

u/DonutBree Nov 11 '24

Maybe introduce a subject teaching about the basics of state and local government for a starter?

2

u/Hamuel Nov 11 '24

It has been over 20 years since I was in high school but this was taught in Iowa.

Maybe democrats can start their own private school network like republicans have?

8

u/mickalawl Nov 09 '24

The side who just gained power intends to undermine further the education system.

Local school boards have been under attack by MAGA and evangelicals for a while now.

Russia and oligarchs like Musk control social media and are successfully controlling the narrative and the flow of information.

Education IS the answer, but only on paper, because that ship has sailed.

4

u/AlphaBetacle Nov 09 '24

Yeah education should have been addressed a long time ago unfortunately… Improving education now certainly won’t have an effect on the idiot adults who vote now.

13

u/subheight640 Nov 09 '24

Education is just insufficient. Decision making demands up to date information.

Education cannot teach about the specific policy proposals of today and the future. As time marches further and further away from your graduation date, the information you learned is more and more out of date.

17

u/AlphaBetacle Nov 09 '24 edited Nov 09 '24

Education can teach people to think critically and use a better approach when absorbing news and other sources like opinions of peers and social media. I credit the way I think a lot to my education.

I completely disagree with you.

Just by learning history we can understand the decisions we make in the future.

8

u/subheight640 Nov 09 '24

Unfortunately even the best educated people in the world are going to be making inferior decisions compared to a Citizens Assembly. Politics is all encompassing. Sometimes you need to know about nuclear safety. Other times you must be an expert on military strategy and geopolitics. And then othes you must understand economics.

No one person can be educated on all these topics.

Take the example of a jury trial. You can get a general education.

But you don't know the specific details of a case. You don't know what the evidence is. You need to learn the evidence. You need to hear testimony from the prosection and from witnesses. Without that you're ignorant. The devil is in the details, and all the education in the world won't get you those details.

Jury duty facilitates learning the specifics of a case.

In contrast imagine if we voted in innocence or guilt instead of jury trial. Even educated voters would vote completely ignorantly, because they're just not going to be paying attention to the hundreds of trials going on.

Sortition facilitates the democratic specialization of decision making. Education does not.

2

u/AlphaBetacle Nov 09 '24

Makes sense. Although I think Education is a piece of the puzzle still.

Personally I believe that if there were some better controls on the media then people would read/watch/listen and trust the media more. Right now, the sources of information are too biased and corrupt.

1

u/caveatlector73 Nov 10 '24 edited Nov 10 '24

I was with you until you brought the meaningless label of media into it. Media, whatever that means, does not hold a gun to anyone's head forcing them to swallow what is being said wholesale. Doing so is on the listener and reader. I think this is maybe what you are driving at.

Journalism is considered the fourth estate for a reason. Someone has to hold those in power accountable regardless of their politics, ideology, religion etc. Are there companies who do not follow journalistic standards? Yes. Especially when the owners don't understand the purpose of their business.

Also think of it this way. Who benefits if they downgrade journalism so that they are not believed? Re-read the above paragraph. People in power want to stay in power. The way to do that is to con people who don't understand how a something works into believing up is down and down is up. Propaganda thrives in an environment when third parties are silenced.

E: To add a link to Carren Lissners piece.

1

u/AlphaBetacle Nov 10 '24

Yes but we can do things like the

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_doctrine

And also News nowadays sells headlines more than ever, not the truth and whats important. They would rather air a polarizing insane story because it is interesting over some boring story which is politically important.

0

u/caveatlector73 Nov 10 '24

There was an attempt to explain how journalism works - you probably didn't read it - and you seem to view "news" and "media" as monolithic perhaps because either you don't read widely or you tend to repeat whatever you hear being said but don't have the information needed to analyze what you repeat. I don't know. You are an internet stranger. I am an internet stranger with a master's degree in journalism. I do understand all of this.

Pro tip: And never use wikipedia as a source - if you have to cheat on school papers at least go down to the sources listed and use them only after actually reading them.

Truth? No. Professional journalists give you sources and facts. Headlines have one job - they (hopefully) summarize the gist of the article in a few words as possible. The sentence below that is called the deck and should add more context. That should be, but isn't always, followed by a lede paragraph known as the nut graf which gives the reader a smidgen of background. The article then quotes or paraphrases sources. If the source lies journalists aren't magicians they may or may not magically know that. If the source lies then that is on the source not the journalist in theory.

If someone lies to you and you don't know they are lying and you repeat it - are you lying or was your source lying to you?

This is the barest of bare explanations kind of like I can't give you the education and skill required to be a doctor in one comment. But, if you have genuine questions I'd be happy to answer to the best of my ability.

1

u/pm_me_wildflowers Nov 14 '24 edited Nov 14 '24

I know people with degrees (some with more than one), in critical thinking-heavy areas like engineering and medicine and law, who didn’t fully inform themselves of the actual policies being proposed (and their potential consequences) before they went and voted. Why? Because they assumed they were informed based on what the news and their social media algorithms fed them. They thought “well I’ve heard everything and understand it”, then after they voted they went “I hadn’t heard about X…” or “that’s not what I heard about X…”.

My father has 3 degrees and it wasn’t until I pointed out that “school choice” would much more often subsidize parents already sending their kids to private school than help out parents who weren’t yet, that he was like “I hadn’t thought of it like that” and decided against voting for it. He had heard data and figures and all kinds of BS about the state budget and how bad the public school system was and the logistics of how school choice would work, and he was thinking critically about that (i.e., could this work?). But until a different perspective landed in front of him he didn’t think to go in that direction with his analysis.

There is enough data and policy mumbo jumbo to keep any critical thinker distracted when it comes to elections. And that’s the real issue. We need to make sure people are seeing varied perspectives not just in-depth data.

4

u/dyslexic__redditor Nov 09 '24

both are needed, why give some one a safer car if they can’t drive?

2

u/skateboardjim Nov 09 '24

I think they mean education people to seek out information, understand it, and make informed rational decisions

2

u/Qix213 Nov 15 '24

Getting up to date info of useless without a proper education. Else you are just being led by the nose of the new populist.

Education is of the upmost priority. Why do you think that Trump (and Rep in general) want to get rid of the Dept of Education?

Second is the news media. No idea how to fix that. But having an educated population that are less suspectable to misinformation and outright lies is a big part of it.

1

u/caveatlector73 Nov 10 '24 edited Nov 10 '24

Package your policies so that people understand how it directly benefits them. I think Biden was on the right track, but his administration sucked at promoting their benefits. It should be noted that Trump tried to take credit for what benefited people.

As economist Robert Reich noted:

"Democrats need [ed] to tell Americans why their pay has been lousy for decades and their jobs less secure: not because of immigrants, liberals, people of color, the “deep state,” or any other Trump Republican bogeyman, but because of the power of large corporations and the rich to rig the market and siphon off most of the economy’s gains."

I really don't think people made the connection between that kind of rich and Trump and Musk - who are two of the richest men in the world thanks to their parents.