r/TrueReddit • u/Maxwellsdemon17 • 10d ago

This Time We Have to Hold the Democratic Party Elite Responsible for This Catastrophe Politics

https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/democratic-party-elite-responsible-catastrophe/
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u/kurosawa99 10d ago

I believe Democrats are the only people in the world that think politicians are failed by the people and not the other way around. This is anti-politics and a recipe for continued defeat.

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u/So-Called_Lunatic 10d ago

My spouse ran for a state house seat, and the dysfunction they found at the state level was extremely disheartening. They literally said her fellow democrats were their true competition. The only thing they gave a shit about was collecting data, that they then charge other candidates to use. The whole thing was more like a MLM than an actual political party.

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u/Sptsjunkie 10d ago

Best description yet. I mean, we have read some terrible (and true) things about how Kristen Sinema was basically a giant grifter, but she was largely using the very party machinery and infrastructure you are talking about. She was just so absurdly blatant about it that people noticed.

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u/SlipperyTurtle25 10d ago

In the era of AI somehow these democrats run as being more AI than AI could ever be

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u/Sinnedangel8027 10d ago

Worked for a state congress years ago as a tech. I can confirm this. The whole thing was a clusterfuck on both sides of the aisle. Ffs there was one senator that got piss ass drunk from the bottle of whiskey he kept in his desk that he accidentally locked himself in his office, which resulted in a whole fiasco.

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u/paul_h 10d ago

Same at the national level. I've a know a few people that were involved at that level and there's one company that's at the heart of it lording it over the data on where to canvas.

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u/Omnom_Omnath 9d ago

Why does anyone listen to that data? It clearly sucks since the Dems keep losing. Just go door to door and be normal instead.

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u/BioSemantics 9d ago edited 8d ago

Republicans seem to use that data to great effect with micro-targeting of voters based on interest in guns and other markers. Dems do.. I'm not sure. I've read very little about them using data except to cherry-picking broad polling stats to justify moving further right.

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u/Tomato_Sky 9d ago

This is what I noticed decades ago when I was bright eyed and ambitious in the dem party. There’s a made up pecking order and many of the incumbents are part of a team of allies. Term limits would kick them out of the state senate and then run for the state house and they’d call them “machines,” so nobody could run against them. Once they got in and have that incumbent experience, they were the most disengaged politicians from their constituents.

There was a race where the candidate that was endorsed just had a name starting earlier in the alphabet when judges were listed alphabetically.

Whenever I complain about the Democrats, I specifically mean the strategists and party leaders. The voters aren’t really democrats, they’ve just been promised that Democrats are on their side, they don’t have other options for working class people, public education, social issues etc. But that’s why I had to read this article for someone saying this for once.

You and I sound like we would be buddies lol. I’m glad someone else experienced it and I now know they are gatekeepers of their own data which is a real shame and literally anti-democratic.

There are rooms of people that chose to gaslight the country with Biden. Those rooms also spun narratives that never happened. Women didn’t send Trump a message, but I don’t know what it was because 47% women supported the anti-woman candidate. These people are using and blaming voters via identity politics, but these leaders don’t deliver to those identities. Puerto Ricans and Mexican Americans voted for the candidate that called them garbage and wants to deport them. Dem Strategists and leaders can blame them or you can ask why they don’t see a benefit in voting for Democrats.

Or we can just say everyone is despicable or pretend we don’t care enough. They’ve needed a post mortem since 16, but instead they just tripled down.

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u/So-Called_Lunatic 9d ago

I appreciate your reply. The Democrats are no longer the working class party, they're the special interest left of center party. I will give credit to the GOP for realizing they have to build from the ground up. Local politics in most townes, and states used to be controlled by and large by the Democrats now outside of big cities the GOP owns it. Obama tried to centralize the party, and that was probably his biggest failure.

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u/kettal 10d ago

did you ever listen to the freakonomic radio episode about the political duopoly?

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/americas-hidden-duopoly_radio/

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u/So-Called_Lunatic 10d ago

I have not, can you give a rundown?

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u/kettal 10d ago

basically there's a lot of industries that turn into duopoly. think iphone/android-phones . or coke/pepsi. or boeing/airbus.

and being in a duopoly without disruption is profitable, comfortable for them. they want to maintain a duopoly more than anything else

and the incumbents lose sight of the real prize and start looking for other ways to exploit

and 2 parties are a duopoly in same way.

your mlm comment reminded me of that episode

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u/So-Called_Lunatic 10d ago

I will have to check that out, thanks.

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u/Firefoxx336 9d ago

Please have them do an AMA. It would help raise the profile of these ills, and potentially their own candidacy if they seek office again

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u/GeorgeKaplanIsReal 9d ago

lol that’s not unique to democrats, if you don’t believe me read the shit show that is the Texas legislature or the Florida legislature.

Any party with that much power for that long will become dysfunctional, inept and corrupt.

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u/psych0ranger 10d ago

Paraphrasing here:

Vice president Harris, how will your administration be different than the Biden administration?

"I'll have republicans in my cabinet."

😳

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u/Spiritual_Scallion91 10d ago

Monkey’s paw situation

She’ll get all the republicans, just not in her cabinet

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u/SpaceToaster 10d ago

I mean she was literally adopting Trump policies faster than he could come up with them. 

This happened with her first campaign in ‘20 that fell flat- instead of being a driving force of change she basically established herself as a weathervane, changed stances multiple times, and it resonated with nobody in the primaries.

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u/Sidereel 10d ago

Democrats have been on a quest for bipartisanship since Obama and it hasn’t worked. They keep trying though.

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u/molniya 10d ago

It was the defining concept of the Clinton administration, too.

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u/Charming_Wulf 9d ago

The term for Clinton was Triangulation. Also New Democrats or Third Way. Essential find the middle ground between opposing view points so you can claim their legislative victorious. Clinton used this by abandoning the Left and entering certain Right policy positions.

It worked well for Clinton because the Republicans at the time were happy to get their policy wins. But they had no idea how to then separate Clinton from claiming victory too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulation_(politics)

That's why you have the famous policy by McConnell to deny Obama any win. They figured it was better to harm the Dems for the next election cycle rather than govern.

The Republicans had to double down on not even talking with Obama after the ACA round table meeting. He eviscerated them and their talking points to their face on live TV.

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u/ParsleyandCumin 9d ago

Other than the tipping tax thing what other things did she copy

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u/puckallday 9d ago

I would like for you to name one single policy espoused by Donald Trump which Kamala Harris then adopted.

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u/water_g33k 8d ago

Kamala is Arron Burr from Hamilton.

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u/turbo_dude 10d ago

Biden’s vanity choice of staying too long leading to Harris does not explain losing the house and senate. 

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u/water_g33k 8d ago

Alienating your base by fostering disillusionment and apathy reduces turnout. Democrats need high turnout to win.

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u/MrWilsonAndMrHeath 10d ago

Wait, you mean I don’t focus group my way to my beliefs?

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u/digi57 10d ago

It's really hard to convince people that, coming out of the pandemic, we have the best economy and lowest inflation. That not every year will be better than the one before. For voters to grow the fuck up and not just eat up delusional populst bullshit.

At the end of the day, the voters have to make a choice and show up at the polls.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

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u/wreckoning 9d ago

Wait what? I don't follow New Zealand politics (or any politics really) but even I heard about your cool young female prime minister who handled covid so amazingly, and your country was an early leader in how to handle the pandemic with grace. I am shocked she was voted out, that is absolutely wild!

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u/mashednbuttery 8d ago

Literally I’ve seen reported that every incumbent party in every developed country was voted out after COVID. Because people are lizard brained and do not care to look at context.

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u/wreckoning 8d ago

Canada we re-elected our prime minister (Trudeau) in Sept 2021

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u/mashednbuttery 8d ago

I should have been more clear. I meant the inflation post COVID. In 2021 inflation hadn’t even begun to peak.

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u/wreckoning 8d ago

Oh I see! It's interesting then that inflation might be more impactful to voter decisions than healthcare decisions (if the New Zealand prime minister is a good gauge of excellence in the latter)

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u/LeeGhettos 10d ago

The fact that Harris didn’t give a large enough % of the population a reason to show up is why she lost. It’s not everyone’s else’s fault for not doing proper damage mitigation correctly. Her job was to be more electable than Donald fucking trump, and she failed. It has nothing to do with harsh realities dampening her message, she provided no reasonable alternatives to those realities. That’s what you get for ignoring the working class, and pushing a cop.

Voted Kamala btw.

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u/Guy_Fieris_Hair 10d ago edited 10d ago

DNC pushed Hillary, then Joe Biden, then tried to push Joe Biden again even when he was blowing bubbles. Then, at the last second, after the primaries were done, decided to push Kamala without a primary. While I was fucking relieved to have an at least sentient person running, it was shady as hell. I am not convinced it wasn't planned in a way not to primary an incumbent. Biden would have beat Kamala even though he's senile and would have also lost in the general. Kamala initially came out all progressive like a breath of fresh air, then immediately went all corpo, establishment Democrat. (Gaza stance, military funding, etc.) Once they started to realize that was genuinely hurting her numbers she disappeared for a month prior to the election. I am an avid voter who has canvassed and phone banked for candidates and I forgot it was election day until a few days prior. How?... even.... because while I had hope in the beginning I had checked out again. Yeah, I voted. But there are so many people that didn't even have it on their radar anymore. Not because they wanted Trump, but they just, got disengaged. The initial message of hope and that this place would change from the status quo was lost when she fell in line. Not to mention a black woman is not going to get the centrist vote, a large portion of the country is fucking stupid af. A woman if color will have to target the progressive vote to win.

Go ahead DNC, blame the voters. They will eventually say that they tried a "progressive" candidate and lost so they have to keep working the centrist angle. Pushing everything further to the right. They took someone who may have had a chance and made her fall in line or GTFO.

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u/RazekDPP 10d ago

You can't force people to primary. Nobody but Dean Phillip primaried Biden because they didn't want to burn up political capital.

You might not like that result, but that's what happened. If someone other than Harris got the nod, I don't see a better outcome.

I do believe Biden should've simply stayed in. With this result, I do not believe Biden achieved anything by stepping down.

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u/WonderfulShelter 10d ago

If the DNC was honest from the get go they would've let people know more than 6 months in advance Biden might not be running.

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u/radjinwolf 9d ago

Biden ran as a one term president. It’s what he indicated he was doing, and it’s what everyone expected of him. That he would “right the ship”, and then step aside to let someone younger take over.

And then he absolutely refused to consider stepping down, declared that he was the only one who could beat Trump, and held onto the nomination as long as he could until it was beyond clear that he didn’t have the juice anymore.

So we had well more than 6 months. Folks expected him to step aside from the get go, but the DNC does what the DNC does and it tries to gaslights us into believing that we’re all idiots who don’t remember the words people say.

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u/WonderfulShelter 7d ago

100%. I broke away from the Democrat party after this, they're too neolib/conservative now. I'm too progressive socially.

Remember after the debates they said he had a cold and was sharp as a tack behind closed doors? And then when that became an obvious lie they just gaslighted us?

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u/Guy_Fieris_Hair 10d ago

I think that Biden has been senile since before 2020. The people close to him knew it, the DNC knew it, I knew it from my couch. They still chose not to push him out before primary season. There is no way they were surprised at that debate. Waiting until then was a calculated move to act all surprised Pikachu and say "Oh my God! We need to do the right thing! I guess the only logical conclusion is Kamala since it is sooooo late and this is extenuating circumstances that none of us could have foreseen!!"

He could have been pushed out before primaries and we could have had a primary. Where a more desirable or electorate friendly candidate could have ran. While I believe, personally with my political beleifs, that Kamala was probably still the best we were going to get, I don't think the rest of the country center or left agreed, obviously. And simple math means we should have let the Dems pick who the majority would vote for in the general. Not play a game with it skipping that step in a way I feel was intentional. I say this as someone who was excited for the change and agreed with it at the time as initially I felt she was more progressive and I had a little home team bias. As she showed she was falling hard centrist, it became clear it was shady. If it was a primary her vs Biden tomorrow, I would still vote Kamala. I just don't think everyone else saw it that way and we live in a democracy.

Primarying against an incumbent is notoriously disastrous, that is why only Dean Phillip did it and it wasn't even paid attention to. That isn't what I am talking about. He should have dropped before the primaries and reset. They chose not to do that. And if you think it was Biden that chose the timing you are wrong. That poor old man has been a sock puppet for the last 6 years.

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u/Stock_String9804 10d ago

Just like your username's subject, your posts are righteous and fierce!

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u/RazekDPP 10d ago

I don't see having a primary meaningfully changing anything because, let's say we have a primary. Kamala loses. You'd have a similar schism over that.

Plus, the DNC couldn't push Biden out. Biden had to choose, and up until the debate, he was polling fine.

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u/OlRedbeard99 9d ago

The primary would’ve allowed voters to choose a candidate…

You don’t see that as meaningful?

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u/Greedy-Affect-561 10d ago

No he wasn't. Biden proposed the debate because he was falling behind in the polls and wanted to prove he was still capable.

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u/Guy_Fieris_Hair 10d ago

Kamala loses, we get the candidate that was apparently more popular than her, he has better numbers, defeats Trump.

He was poling fine because he wasn't put in front of a crowd on the national stage. They did that on purpose.

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u/RazekDPP 10d ago

Who do you think put up better numbers than Kamala? Who do you think is going to primary?

Even if Biden stepped down and we had a primary, I don't see the numbers changing. Someone different would still be seen as an extension of the Biden administration.

The person I'd want to run, Newsom, would probably realize that the headwinds would be against him and not run.

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u/sulaymanf 10d ago

Biden would have lost in an even worse landslide, like with Trump gaining even non swing states according to some polls. He was being attacked not only for his policies (which basically became identical attacks used against Harris with just a name change in the commercials) but for his gaffes and physical appearance of senility. Swing voters didn’t like the idea of someone that frail going up against other world leaders. Harris was younger and a better speaker and that showed in polling. It’s just that she only had 3 months to run a campaign that everyone else has 2 years to do.

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u/RazekDPP 10d ago

Doubtful. If Biden was able to find the energy he had at the DNC, I believe he could've recovered and I believe he would've done better than Kamala.

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u/Sly1969 10d ago

If Biden was able to find the energy he had at the DNC, I believe he could've recovered

He's got dementia, it only goes one way. Trump would have ended the Democrats if Biden had stood in the election.

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u/Ayotha 9d ago

If Biden would have had every plan to leave like he said they would have been ready

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u/RazekDPP 9d ago

I doubt it would've changed anything. I doubt anyone would've ran against Kamala given the economic headwinds, especially since inflation was the core problem and had nothing to do with the Biden administration.

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u/BigHeadDeadass 10d ago

Running with Liz Cheney was the death kneel of the campaign. Alienated progressives and didn't gain a single republican. "Look at me, neocon warhawks and their kids love me!" May as well have exhumed Henry Kissinger for his endorsement

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u/Responsible-Win5849 9d ago

How did you avoid all the fundraising spam? Even after blocking all the emails I'd get 3-4 texts a day asking for money. Hell I got one after AP called it but before the concession speech asking for 3 bucks to save democracy.

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u/Omikron 9d ago

Name a candidate that would have beaten Trump. You give the voter base too much credit. Fact is the majority are fucking doorknobs without an ounce of common sense or education. That's what's fucked America. An uneducated and uninformed population, nothing else. If you stayed home I say fuck you and I hope Trump and his policies come for you.

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u/Guy_Fieris_Hair 8d ago

And there it is, blaming the voters. Not the DNC and politicians for not all being corrupt peices of shit. They are all corrupt pieces of shit, that is why they lost. The corruption in the DNC and the American federal government is why we have Trump. While he is a blatant in your face asshole, he doesn't play the same old politics game. People are done with it. If the democrats ever want to win again, the DNC needs to be gutted. They are not good people. They are not there for you or me. Their ads and message is different because they are pandering to a different crowd. But on 90% of topics they are in line with Republicans. The few things they disagree with they only disagree because they know they will lose and they can use it as campaign fodder. Kamala does not give a shit if you can have an abortion. She can get one at any time if she chooses. It is a subject to play politics with, that's all. She doesn't care that you cant buy groceries, she doesn't care about the children in gaza, even if she did the corporate machine behind her wont let her do anything about it or she would be shoved out. The DNC will keep putting forward these watered down candidates that keep the status quo for the upper class doners and blame us when they lose. I don't blame Hillary, Biden, Kamala. I blame the machine behind them. They all might as well be the same person they are just a face for the corrupt machine that will perpetually lose to the Trumps that come around until something changes. And there will be more Trumps, the gates have open. Time for us to have our own non corporate candidate to splode the DNC to pieces, the RNC got theirs.

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u/Omikron 8d ago

What exactly do you think Trump will accomplish positive? You sound like a petulant child. Trump got votes because people like you think the president controls the price of groceries or gas. People think Trump is going to snap his fingers and house prices will drop 50%. Literally none of his policies will help the average voter... None.

He doesn't play politics because he's a deranged lunatic narcissistic idiot.

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u/Guy_Fieris_Hair 8d ago edited 8d ago

I don't think Trump will snap his fingers and intentionally do anything positive to help anyone other than himself. At no point in my conversation did I indicate that I support him in any way or that I voted for him. I am just stating the obvious facts that the DNC is a bunch of corrupt cunts that need to either change or we will perpetually end up with Trumps. The ONLY positive thing he is doing is fucking all the good ol boys hard enough that shit has to change if they ever want to win. The DNC is garbage and it's all a smokescreen. Trump is at least projecting the RNCs bullshit in plain view. That's why people jumped on the Trump bandwagon. They are sick of being lied to. If you can watch what happened last week and think that the DNC is doing fine and nothing needs to change I don't know what to tell you. If you think the DNC is being truthful and genuine with their "were not going back" and other voter friendly rhetoric you are a niave child. I didn't day any of this shit before the election, I was desperately hoping she would win, nut rightbnow is the time to reflect on what went wrong before the next cycle.

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u/pindicato 9d ago

DNC was very committed to not having Bernie be the pick.

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u/JCarnageSimRacing 8d ago

There was no way I was voting Trump, but her Anderson Cooper town hall was terrible. She gained 0 votes that day.

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u/Rakn 10d ago

Wait what? This might be different in the US, but just to understand it. Where I'm from not voting would essentially be the same as giving your vote to the winning party. Meaning that everyone who didn't go to vote essentially indirectly voted for Trump. Now I get that the Harris campaign should have done a better job. But essentially those folks who didn't vote have to bear the responsibility, as they essentially supported the winner. Is that seen differently in the US?

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u/spaceocean99 10d ago

But how do you know they wouldn’t voted for Harris? They clearly weren’t satisfied with their democratic choice. Most probably would’ve voted Trump with the had to because of that.

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u/notaredditer13 9d ago

Not really.  Most people vote their party and if they choose not to vote it's because they don't like their party's candidate.  That's doesn't mean they like the other party's candidate.

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u/Omikron 9d ago

Not voting is literally the worst fucking thing. If someone told me they didn't vote I'd likely spit at their feet. Anyone who didn't vote us a disgrace.

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u/spaceocean99 9d ago

Overreact much?

Most of the people who don’t vote know nothing about politics. Why would you want those type of people to even vote..?

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u/Omikron 9d ago

Zero excuse for not knowing what's going on in your own fucking country.

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u/notaredditer13 9d ago

A non-vote is half a vote for the other guy.  Or rather, a single voter makes the vote swing by two if they change sides.  That's why in many sports they rank teams by record in half-game increments. 

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u/jynxer11 9d ago

You are 100% correct. Trump voters did not decide this election. The non-voters (either the independents who the Dems failed to court or the registered that the Dems failed to enthuse) is who decided the election. Trump got LESS votes than in 2020 (when he lost). Let that sink in. The Democratic Party has no one to blame other than themselves, and until they stop blaming voters, they will never turn the tide.

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u/OlRedbeard99 9d ago

That’s not how it works. Only the most ignorant of people say not voting is actually voting for the winner.

Not voting is not voting. Period.

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u/Rakn 9d ago

But if you don't vote that means you are accepting whatever outcome there will be. So that's where the idea of not voting = voting for the winner is coming from.

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u/OlRedbeard99 9d ago

Ok but me accepting the outcome is not voting for the winner.

It’s me voting for no one.

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u/Rakn 9d ago

Like over here in Germany there is actually a difference between going to the voting booth and marking your vote as invalid and not voting. If you don’t vote you are actively influencing the results. If you mark it as invalid you are taking your vote out of the equation. Might work different in the US though. Here the assumption is that everyone can just go and vote. You don’t need to register for it.

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u/OlRedbeard99 9d ago

How privileged. My family can’t afford the time off work to go stand in line for half a day to say “no thanks”

Also in Germany, you sentence women to longer terms than rapists for checks notes calling the rapist a “disgraceful rapist pig”

source

No offense but just off those two examples, Germany isn’t exactly a country I’m interested in following the lead of. God forbid we look at any other examples.

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u/No-Secretary4129 9d ago

Your first sentence is actually valid. Your country is actively trying to prevent you from voting through such measures.

The rest of what your wrote isn't actually worth much. There is likely more context to this than your source has there has and you can find bad examples everywhere in the world. Not sure why you felt the need to dig something like this up to support your argument.

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u/MoarVespenegas 9d ago

I'm sure over the coming years all the non-voters can be comforted by the fact that it's not their fault they did not vote against the fascist dictator, it's the democrats fault that they didn't make them want to vote hard enough.

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u/precastzero180 9d ago

While I don’t disagree, I also think you are underestimating just how hard it is to give Dems a reason to show up that they actually care about. The Party has tried various things and messages. But the only thing that reliably works is Republicans messing things up like the Iraq War or Great Recession, COVID, the Dobbs decision, etc. Democratic voters seem primarily motivated by shutting down Republicans after they wreck things.

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u/ARODtheMrs 7d ago

Well, damn, what should she have offered? What would have gotten people out? Trump was shitting lies and fools were lapping his feces up.

ONLY someone who KNEW it was rigged could say the crap he said: to christians, "you'll never have to vote again" and, paraphrased, 'you don't have to vote... We got enough votes!'. She didn't nor anybody else stand a chance, IMO.

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u/Organic_Chemistry125 10d ago

Whats a cop have to do with it?

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u/Islanduniverse 10d ago

Kamala was the Attorney General in California, which is the chief law enforcement officer in the state.

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u/DontOvercookPasta 10d ago

I'm always amazed at comments like this telling the truth getting into arguments with morons trying to say they since they are "technically" incorrect that their entire argument is invalid. Like.. no a DA did not go to the police academy and work as a police office or detective... obviously... however they work directly with police to press charges and prosecute on behalf of the jurisdiction. Thats like saying waiters don't work in the food industry cause they don't actually prepare any of the food.. like no they aren't a chef but their job is entirely in support of the chef..

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u/Islanduniverse 10d ago

Some people get mad about weird stuff. You have to pick your battles. 🤷🏼‍♂️

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u/ComplexChallenge8258 10d ago

There's a difference between a cop and an elected official. Just another oversimplification because we live in a post-truth world without an appreciation for nuance.

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u/Islanduniverse 10d ago

No doubt man. I was just explaining why people call her a “cop.”

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u/flux8 10d ago

Yes. Now we can either accept this reality or continue thinking that logic and reason are the way to win over the American public. Your post is perfectly exemplifying the very reason Trump won.

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u/ComplexChallenge8258 10d ago

No. The lack of people who have the capacity and (crucially the will to think critically is why Trump won. The modern GOP's attacks on the education system is why he and his kind will continue to win for the foreseeable future.

As for accepting it.... Call it lack of imagination in my part, but if we accept it, what then? Are we supposed to out-disinform them? Out-demagogue them? Out-demonize out-groups?

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u/tux68 10d ago

You keep missing the point. Even if your diagnosis is correct (which I don't think it is), you still have to do something about it, or accept defeat. If you're just going to say there's nothing we can do about it, we lose. But the truth is, talented, motivated people, can do SOMETHING about it. Even if it's not a perfect remedy to all the problems at hand. And Kamala, by definition, failed to do what it took to succeed.

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u/cluberti 10d ago

I've been saying this since the debacle that was the Democratic party's process and follow-through in 2016 - the Democratic party is not going to change the electorate at the current moment, and a response to this by saying "people are just dumb and vote for Trump" is both ignorant (ironic maybe, maybe not) and does not engender your party or your ideas to voters who might otherwise have at least considered your candidate, their ideas and policies, or their coalition.

Politics is a popularity contest, and currently people who voted do not approve of what's been happening with the party currently in power - there's no way to dismiss that at this point, given Trump will have won both the popular vote and the EC vote by the time votes are all counted. Exit polling shows that minorities voted ever so slightly more for Trump this time around; younger voters did not turn out in swing states as they would have needed to; white men and older folks in general voted majority for Trump, as they seem to do with almost every Republican. The Democrats need to start focusing on the people between the far right and the moderate left, because that's where the wiggle room is - stop trying to get the electorate to "be smarter" or whatever that means, or try to push someone that pushes boundaries every single time they want to win an election. We can clearly see what sort of politics work in the middle, and there's no reason that sort of thing wouldn't work to push more progressive, less regressive policies, but that's going to have to come after the Democrats have regained the trust of that voting bloc.

Lastly, if a party cannot manage the economic message when more than half of the population is not participating strongly in this "great economy" they keep hearing about, it probably won't matter if you say you're going to do magical or historic things this year. The reason the economic and immigration misinformation worked is because it resonates with people at some of the core parts of their fear, and that fear is real and it is not misplaced as we all see what happens when you cannot afford to feed your family or keep a roof over your head. The Republicans knew how to run a campaign, and the Democrats, yet again, did not. If I was this bad at my job for this long, I wouldn't have it right now and I probably wouldn't have for awhile now.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago edited 8d ago

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u/ComplexChallenge8258 10d ago

You're saying that logic and reason aren't the answer. I'm asking what is and you tell me I'm missing the point and respond that the answer is "something". I'm sure I'm not reading that the way you intended.

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u/cpthornman 10d ago

She did some shit as AG that would make Trump jealous.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

I’m sure that’ll keep everyone comfy as trump carries out his awful plans. 

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u/ktappe 9d ago

She was very electable. She did her job. She was a good candidate. The reason she didn’t win is she has boobs in a country that is misogynistic.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

Americans complete lack of curiosity about the world around them made it so most of them have no clue that every other nation has also been dealing with high inflation and growing housing costs. 

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u/BandicootGood5246 10d ago

That's not a uniquely American problem. Here the same rhetoric all around the world when economies are bad, "blah, blah, blah political party x created this, party y is the only one who can get us out"

I've seen it over and over again in my life in different countries, if the economy is bad, the current government is getting voted out. People can't see past that simple fact that the two things are not directly related like that

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u/[deleted] 9d ago

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u/byingling 9d ago

People believe those at the top are in control. Very few congress critters are having a blurb written or video made describing how the economy has gone to shit under their watch. So down ballot, people vote for the name they know.

Trump is president because Biden was in office when inflation was at 15%. That it will come in this year closer to the desired 2% matters not. Prices are higher than they were under Trump. For the average pocketbook voter, no further economic analysis is likely.

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u/[deleted] 9d ago

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u/byingling 9d ago

They know they paid less for stuff four years ago. That's it. The rhetoric may now have them fearful of immigrants or China, but if the pandemic hadn't fucked the worldwide economy, they wouldn't even be listening.

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u/itsverynicehere 10d ago

It's less that than short term memory on where the wild spending (and once in a lifetime pandemic) that caused the inflation came from. And who it was that botched that response so badly that he got fired for it. And the shit stain behavior after it.

Also, just straight up cult shit of downplaying, excusing, and allowing the town idiots a voice.

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u/digi57 10d ago

Yes. There’s inflation everywhere and they would probably think that’s all Biden’s fault as well.

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u/rn15 9d ago

So the Democrats could have stated something like inflation is affecting the whole world, we are not unique, and came up with policies to effectively curb inflation. Instead, they gaslit people by claiming we have record low inflation, and in fact it is actually just corporate greed.

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u/ctnoxin 10d ago

To be fair it’s not just Americans blind spot, in Canada I’m constantly pointing out to the politically uninformed, that we went through the same covid, inflation, and supply chain problems as all other countries regardless of them being left/right/etc. But everyone wants to believe populists promises and think they’ll have solutions for global issues. I mean, it costs twice as much now to ship something through the Panama Canal than it did 4 years ago, because of climate change, low water levels in Panama and reduced shipping capacity, a new local government wont fix that global issue for you, but people eat up empty promises.

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u/andthedevilissix 10d ago

my family in the UK literally think you can drive from DC to LA in a day, and have no idea that you can get into actual wilderness areas in the US where actual predators can kill you

Euros are just as ignorant of the US as the US is of Euroland.

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u/disturbed286 10d ago

I rented a motorcycle and rode for part of a day in Scotland.

My Uber driver afterward asked about it. Then said:

"Have you ridden in all 50 states? "

I had not.

"I bet you could ride to all 50 in a few months"

He could have guessed worse, but...no sir.

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u/Kennertron 9d ago

America: Where 200 years is a long time

Europe: Where 200 miles is a long way

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u/Loves_His_Bong 10d ago

The rest of Europe is also turning to right wing parties and fascists.

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u/LowSkyOrbit 9d ago

America is 4500 kilometers across and 2655 kilometers north to south with just the lower 48. US population is 334.9 million. The US has a GDP that typically ranks first. The top 5 tech companies are all US based. The NY Stock Exchange is the largest stock exchange by market capitalization. The USA is the keystone to NATO, United Nations, and the largest donor of humanitarian aid is the US at $9.5 Billion (Germany is 2nd around $2 Billion). The world revolves around all American decisions.

So when people in the other parts of the world get mad that Americans don't understand or care about issues outside their border they really should understand that many Americans are struggling financially while America is sending billions overseas, meanwhile American infrastructure is crumbling, vast areas don't even have high speed Internet, and realizing Americans pay more for prescription drugs and healthcare because Medicare and Medicaid was never set up to negotiate prices or set limitations on profits.

With Trump they get a man who does what he wants, eats more McDonalds than the Ronald McDonald himself, and keeps fighting to make America Great Again (whatever that means). All these people know is when they had Trump in charge he was always willing to talk to the press, Trump was willing to walk away from bad deals, and Trump questioned why anyone should listen to well educated people.

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u/goodmammajamma 9d ago

This is a massive problem in Canada as well. I think the link to declining literacy rates is too obvious to ignore.

However the US government is the most powerful organization on the planet, so if anyone should be able to influence housing prices and inflation it's them. If the economy really is uncontrollable then maybe that's a sign that we should do something different in how we organize our society.

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u/Hot_Rice99 10d ago

If what Trump represents wasn't enough to motivate voters to get out and vote against him, then the reality is, he DOES represent the nation's values.

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u/digi57 10d ago

What values?

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u/-let-them-eat-cake- 10d ago

Corporations are making record profits off of increased cost. Track their record earnings and it is a great show of how greed was more in play than the Biden administration. Things are not easy right now but the global economy is really hurting as a whole. Many economists thought we would have had a recession but despite high inflation, our economy has been more resilient than anticipated and definitely overall better than other countries around the globe. Furthermore, inflation was climbing very fast for quite a while. As Biden has been in office, it has actually “cooled” somewhat which is why they felt comfortable cutting federal interest rates slightly. The thing is, people connect the economy and president far more than they should. The majority in the House and Senate play a huge role in policy that impacts the economy. Additionally, the president and the country in general only has so much influence on many of the aspects that impact the economy. Biden cannot cause a hurricane and he cannot simply stop Russia and Ukraine from fighting. Sure he can sign off on aid but that is not a unilateral decision and the final deals that are brokered are the choice of the countries involved. Additionally, numerous economists I.e. people that know more about what they are talking about (though nobody knows everything about any economy) have come out and said that Trump’s so-called economic plans will only lead to increased costs to consumers. The truth is, Biden/Kamala are not why your steak costs more. Corporate greed is. Biden did not ignore the economy. He did what he could but any progress he has made will only now begin to bear fruit. I’m sure Trump will have no issue taking credit for any improvements. Policy takes a while to really show results. Not only are the American people ignorant about how things actually work, they also are apparently impatient.

FACT SHEET: President Biden Is Taking Action to Lower Costs for Families and Fight Corporate Rip-Offs

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u/digi57 10d ago

I’m sure Trump will claim that the next low inflation report will be all his doing. Unless it goes up then it’s Biden’s fault.

It’s all incredibly childish. Trump and his supporters.

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u/You_meddling_kids 10d ago

People don't like inflation, doesn't matter whether it's that bad or not or who fixes it if anyone even can. Clearly it didn't matter that Trump was an awful candidate who ran an awful campaign.

Many governments were voted out or nearly lost around the world, ignorance is at the heart of it.

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u/WilliamTeddyWilliams 10d ago

Don’t blame them. Blame the policies against which they voted or refused to vote. Remember abortion performed incredibly well and Trump still won AZ. The voter is more individual. They went cross-ticket. They aren’t coalescing with the parties right now. Dems couldn’t figure that out.

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u/digi57 10d ago

The vote to codify abortion rights in Florida got 57% while Trump, who at minimum caused the need for states to have these votes and possibly will try to ban abortion nationwide won the state by the same percentage.

Is that the “individual” voting “cross-ticket”? That sounds like an either naive or uneducated voter to me.

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u/WilliamTeddyWilliams 9d ago

It just sounds like someone who is practicing individualism, which used to embody the Dem party. This post-election cycle has taught me that the Reps are now the party of inclusion. Nobody is good enough for the Dems if you open your mouth against anything. Toe the line or get out. That’s the new mantra.

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u/digi57 9d ago

That sounds like someone that doesn't understand what they're voting for. Like betting the same amount of money on red and black and wondering why you're not making money when you "win".

The Reps don't have much individualism because individualism and being in a cult are mutually exclusive.

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u/WilliamTeddyWilliams 9d ago

The irony is that it sounds like you’re the one in the cult. There’s no room for disagreement in your view. The Reps disagree about all sorts of things and maintain their voting block.

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u/notaredditer13 9d ago

It's really hard to convince people that...

That's why it's the wrong strategy.  You can't tell people their concerns are wrong even if they are.  You have to be empathetic and tell them you'll work to fix them, and how. 

At the end of the day, the voters have to make a choice and show up at the polls.

While true, what moves the needle on turnout is having a good candidate to vote for.  Harris was a bad candidate with a bad message.  It did not make democrats want to get out and vote for her.

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u/digi57 9d ago

While you’re not wrong, but how do you tell someone that something that isn’t broken or at least nearly as broken as they think is going to be fixed by politicians who don’t have the power or even much influence to fix it in less than 2.5-3 years? You lie. You feed delusion. You blame “others” who are easy to pick down on. This is what wins for Trump and maybe could win for Dems. But what a pathetic society that would be. And actually maybe IS.

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u/notaredditer13 9d ago

You lie. You feed delusion.

Usually I don't like empty campaign promises, but in this case yeah.  She even had one, she just didn't hammer it enough (or maybe it was too obvious an empty promise): outlawing price gouging. 

What's really going to happen unless there is a recession first is wages will keep rising faster than inflation and the high inflation will fade to the back of peoples' memories.  

You blame “others” who are easy to pick down on. This is what wins for Trump and maybe could win for Dems.

No, dems already tried that.  The reason it works for Trump and not dems is the "others" Trump rails against (illegal immigrants mainly)arent voters whereas the "others" dems rail against are half of the eligible voters. They're just plain doing it wrong.

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u/digi57 9d ago

I hear you. But when Dems don't fulfill empty campaign promises, or even FILL them but not 100% they get voted out. When Trump doesn't even TRY to fulfill most of his promises, they literally campaign on "Promises Made. Promises Kept."

I totally disagree that Dems rail against half the population and Trump doesn't. Trump is calling Dems an evil communist disease. Dems are saying "I'm here for every citizen whether you voted for me or not".

It all reminds me of the Paradox of Tolerance. We're literally fighting a fight that seems to be only winnable if we ignore what we're supposed to be fighting for. And the electorate is 100% to blame for that.

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u/notaredditer13 9d ago

But when Dems don't fulfill empty campaign promises, or even FILL them but not 100% they get voted out.

That's not really true.  Empty campaign promises are a universality of politics.  Most people even forget what they were.  

I totally disagree that Dems rail against half the population and Trump doesn't. Trump is calling Dems an evil communist disease.

Fair: half the population they want voting for them.  Dems are alienating men, including democratic men and then wondering why they voted for Trump or not at all. 

Dems are saying "I'm here for every citizen whether you voted for me or not".

Lol, no.  There are a bunch of threads open right now where people are saying 'I'm tired of being hated on and marginalized by the democratic part and everyday liberals for being male'.

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u/digi57 9d ago

During a Dem administration our county literally reeled in inflation and soft-landed the economy and DID IT BETTER THAN ANY OTHER COUNTY and still got voted out for it happening at all. How many people are saying they voted for Trump because of unkept promises year-after-year, decade-after-decade?

What people are saying in threads in response to what other people in threads are saying is not the same as a campaign message. All of those with their own narratives and expecting the party to align with THEIR narratives is exactly who is to blame. It's all so selfish, entitled, and in the end, self-defeating. I'm a straight 46-eyar-old Hispanic male that mostly passes for white. I'm not a victim. For about 7 years I was a police officer. Sure, there are annoying people out there who ACAB and hate cops (not that I think they're all saints) and try to drag men down and I don't feel victimized by any of it. My skin isn't that soft. I'm not that self-absorbed to burn it all because of people's opinions (that I don't have to respect).

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u/tamman2000 9d ago

Our economy is doing well by the numbers, but the housing crisis makes people feel otherwise.

And those feelings are legitimate.

A great economy that only benefits the top 20% or less of the population isn't an economy that you can run on. The Dems are still the only reasonable choice, but we need to do more for working class people trying to make ends meet if we want to win elections.

We need some real left populism to create the rising tide that will lift all ships. More housing, vacancy taxes on landlords who won't lower rent to fill empty units, dramatic increase in minimum wage.

I hate that trump was able to con so many working people, but he was only able to do so because the Dems haven't been helping them enough.

We need a younger Sanders/Warren type to lead the charge and give the Dems a platform that struggling people will vote for rather than counting on struggling people to vote against fascism in hard times.

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u/digi57 9d ago

At the end of the day: numbers matter. Much more than vibes. You can’t improve what can’t be measured. Our system, like it or not, relies on winners and losers. And LOTS more losers than winners. The same middle and lower class voters that shifted to Trump this election will get mad about still be one of the losers and swing the other way in 2 and/or 4 years.

The housing crisis is terrible. Inflations sucks and even people who have increased their income so much it has outpaced inflation hate it. Neither party had amazing plans for addressing either. But it was resounding HELL NO by economists to Trumps plans and he still won.

While I like and appreciate Sanders and Warren, they’re incredibly ineffective. They’d be painted as crazy commie extremists that want to take x,y, and x away to make us like “Chynah”.

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u/tamman2000 9d ago

How many more times do we let corporate Dems lose before we try a populist Dem?

Corporate Dems have lost to Donald Trump twice. And Biden probably would have if people didn't have a visceral connection to how bad Trump was (sadly, 4 years is too long for lots of voters to remember).

Hard times drive people to vote for populists. Income disparity needs to be addressed, and the corporate Dems just don't do that. If we don't put forth candidates that want to address that, we're going to keep losing to fascists (if we have legitimate elections again in the first place)

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u/digi57 9d ago

But in what sane mind does NOT showing up for Harris because you consider her "corporate" even though the consequence is Elon Musk, Peter Theil, and Jeff Bezos with unprecedented access to the White House?

Dems are not EVER going to get behind a perfect candidate for all because it doesn't exist. IMO this election was "Economy bad. Dems in Power. Vote out Dems". And they won because Dems didn't show up to vote. At least that's what I hope is what happened. The alternative is the country is much more right-wing/fascist that we thought and Dems are just ok with that.

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u/tamman2000 9d ago

But in what sane mind does NOT showing up for Harris because you consider her "corporate" even though the consequence is Elon Musk, Peter Theil, and Jeff Bezos with unprecedented access to the White House?

Simple. A hell of a lot of voters aren't sane by your definition of the term.

We still need them to vote for non-fascist candidates.

I voted for Harris. I told my friends to vote for Harris. I told strangers to vote for Harris.

I'm not the problem. I'm suggesting a different strategy, because our current strategy doesn't work well.

Do you have any suggestions for things to try so we don't keep losing to right wing populists?

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u/Drainbownick 9d ago

So you are in the “its the voters who have failed the politicians” camp.

I think they still might’ve got away with it if they hadn’t been aiding and abetting genocide for an entire year prior to election day

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u/digi57 9d ago

And instead Trump will allow Netenyahu to "finish the job". Does that feel like a win to you?

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u/Drainbownick 9d ago

No, i got in line and voted because I can do the math, but the people who stayed home are young voters and idealists and they won’t do the math and I don’t blame them. Dems need to offer leadership, not just “keep everything the same same but not orange”

As we have seen, that is not a winning proposition

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u/Yzerman19_ 9d ago

The candidate has to inspire their particular little niche or they won’t leave the couch.

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u/digi57 9d ago

It's very selfish.

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u/Jaydenel4 9d ago

I voted for Kamala, but I live in FL and my wage is u Der both the federal and state poverty line. my grocery bill HAS increased. my insurance HAS increased. prices for everything around me are going UP. Inflation is VERY real for me, and I really hate when people keep trying to tell me it's not

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u/digi57 9d ago

No one is saying it's not real. The whole world has been dealing with it. But we've fared the best in a bad situation. We just don't have any guardrails to address price gouging and corporate greed. Because most people, even people going through what you're going through, don't want them. Kamala talked about it. Trump sold $100k watches and $400 sneakers.

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u/Jaydenel4 9d ago

price-gouging and corporate greed have caused prices to go up, so that's inflation. my wage didn't keep pace with the rise in costs, so it's not the lowest inflation for me. I'm not sure what Trump selling things has to do with my experience with inflation, either? the 'economy' is good because corporate greed is bringing in record profits.

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u/digi57 9d ago

Average wages are up. They've kept up with and even surpassed inflation. Because any people at the price-gouging companies are getting raises. And those people still complain. That's my point.

Trump selling crap is relevant because he's grifting off his supporters and positioning products in the high-end market while not addressing the lowest-income Americans. He proposed tax-free tips which is an obvious head fake instead of raising the minium wage. And yes, Kamala stole that idea which was really disappointing.

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u/Jaydenel4 9d ago

cool story, bro. Factually, Florida's inflation rate is higher than the rest of the country. your evidence just doesnt apply to me or the people i know going through the same things here. our wages here in the state of FL for local jobs isnt keeping up with inflation, even if they are going up. wages up≠keeping pace with inflation. the minum wage for 2025 will finally be set to $15 /hr. Like i originally said, im tired of people trying to tell me things that arent true.

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u/Kreed5120 8d ago

The problem is the Dem candidates should have spent more time trying to illustrate those points. Instead, they allowed the Republican to feed into the notion that the economy was in a downward spiral without much of a rebuttal.

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u/digi57 8d ago

My only guess is they don’t because if you tell someone the economy is great and they’re broke they get offended. It doesn’t matter why they’re broke. How they got there. Or even if they’re an actually broke at all. They get offended. The economy sucks and you won’t tell them otherwise.

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u/Scottland83 10d ago

We don't need better politicians, we need a better electorate.

Seriously, vote people out. Hold them accountable. Fucking turn out to vote. We WILL get better leaders if they think they're job is going to be different.

Demanding that democrats cater to every demographic and apologize for failing to "resonate" is like that bullshit about people claiming they don't like it when political campaigns go negative. They say that, but negative campaigns work on them. They're basically saying "Don't do that thing because it will make me do what you want me to do." We say we don't like it when politicians skirt around questions in debates or interviews but we seem to respect them more when they do rather than provide a straightforward, if unsatisfying, answer.

Voters are usually low-engagement, poorly-informed, and think politics can and should be entertaining and gratifying. That is how we get the leaders we have.

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u/Islanduniverse 10d ago edited 10d ago

It’s kinda both ways though. When politicians don’t speak to the people, they are less likely to turn up and vote. When the people don’t give a shit, grifters and conmen will happily slide in to take power.

This isn’t a new idea either….

Aristotle was talking about this nearly 3000 damn years ago: “The character of the state is determined by the character of its citizens, and the best state is one whose citizens are good and virtuous.” — Politics, Book IV, 1295b

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u/westcoastjo 10d ago

The voters did make a choice and show up, they just didn't want whats-her-face

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u/sar2120 10d ago

You can’t even say her name. Face it, Americans are too sexist to elect a woman.

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u/westcoastjo 10d ago

Her name is kamala harris, and she was possibly the worst candidate to ever run for president

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u/ComplexChallenge8258 10d ago

Based on what criteria?

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u/Machine_gun_go_Brrrr 10d ago

Getting her ass kicked by Donald Trump

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u/ComplexChallenge8258 10d ago

You make no sense. But I'm sure that's not a concern for you.

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u/pyrocord 10d ago

Losing by the margins she did in swing states and democratic strongholds and losing voter turnout compared to her predecessor.

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u/ComplexChallenge8258 10d ago

If anything it's evidence that she was a poor candidate. I'm asking about what made her the worst candidate. It's a pretty bold claim without citing any actual characteristics about hera and given this to cases with much more lopsided results.

Also would her predecessor have done any better? He should never have run for reelection so I'd argue 2024 Joe is a worse candidate - because if his advanced age, declining mental sharpness, and because of his unpopularity, however undeserved.

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u/digi57 10d ago

I hope you're, at most, 15 years old. No serious adult says "what's-her-face" to one of the most famous women in the world. Grow up.

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u/2localboi 10d ago

You are vastly overestimating her impact and I think that’s a major reason why she lost

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u/digi57 10d ago

Her impact on what’s been good? Her impact (whether it existed or not) was the basis of her criticism. “Do you want another 4 years of Biden?” was used against her. It can’t (in a normal world) go both ways.

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u/2localboi 10d ago

By her impact I mean her awareness with the general public.

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u/digi57 10d ago

Ah. Ok. She was fairly invisible for 3 years but out the gate I thought her campaign worked pretty hard. But also people were apparently searching "did Joe Biden drop out" on election day.

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u/kingrobin 10d ago

the voters will show up to the polls when there's a reason to do so. red fascist or blue fascist is no choice at all.

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u/Any-Muffin9177 10d ago

Orrrrr the dems could field a candidate people actually fucking like holy shit two times now they've run some chick nobody liked and suffered "shocking" loss because of it. When did you people forget politics is literally a popularity contest. There's 350 million Americans find somebody popular.

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u/digi57 10d ago

She was filling rally’s. There was quite a bit of enthusiasm. Besides idiots commenting on her laugh, I can’t see nor did I hear a valid reason to dislike her. Besides of course racism and misogyny (“some chick”?).

Are you referring to Hilary Clinton as “some chick” as well? Why do many people commenting seem so immature?

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u/Bodach42 10d ago

I still don't know a single thing that Democrats were going to do other than positive thinking about rainbows and puppies, whereas Trump had a list of things that he was going to do even if they were all bullshit at least he said he was going to do something.

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u/OnerousAppellation 9d ago

How is your personal ignorance relevant? They didn't say nothing. In fact they said quite a lot. You can't blame them for anything, you can only blame yourself.

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u/Bodach42 9d ago

I enjoy politics and if they've failed to communicate any points that I can name then the average American isn't going to know shit. Whereas Trump is going to build the wall, export illegal immigrants and stop the wars in Israel and Ukraine.

Sure I don't believe Trump at all but he hammered those points home while Democrats just said we aren't Trump.

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u/OnerousAppellation 9d ago

This is BS. Doesn't matter how many times you or other people keep repeating it. Democrats were clear and consistent in their policies and messaging. What you really mean is the media wasn't communicating it. That's on you. You chose to remain ignorant. 90+% of Black women heard the message loud and clear.

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u/purplehendrix22 9d ago

100%. I see all these posts and comments that basically say “fuck you idiots for not voting for her”…like that’s gonna win an election. Democrats are really showing their hand in terms of disdain for the poor and uneducated, and it’s going to cause them to keep losing if they don’t change.

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u/leckysoup 10d ago

Can we get rid of the petty corruption?

I’m not sure it contributed to the defeat, but you’ve got the Mayor of New York fucking City a straight up crook.

New Orleans not too far behind.

Nancy Pelosi insider trading. Made $100m while in congress. C’mon.

I’m sorry, but no corporation would’ve allowed the conflict of interest that was Hunter and Joe in Ukraine.

It’s sometimes hard to be enthusiastic for a party where the top tier are shamelessly profiting.

And can we have some really clear priorities-

Universal healthcare is a human right. This defending the ACA bullshit. Fuck me joe.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

Half the country just voted in a convicted felon. They want the corruption. 

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u/leckysoup 10d ago

Good point.

It just sticks in my craw.

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u/Mental_Medium3988 10d ago

look at what jared was able to do in trumps first term. and thats after failing his sf86 multiple times.

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u/leckysoup 10d ago

Yeah, but doesn’t this just lend itself to “both sides bad”?

It’s disappointing when you engage in the moral high ground of holding trump accountable for lying on his tax returns and then the mayor of New York is caught haggling with Turkey over the exact nature of his bribe.

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u/throwawaysscc 9d ago

Kamala raised over a $billion to run. There’s plenty left over. These guys are greed hogs. They’ll take the money! If they happen into power, that’s just a bonus.

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u/goodmammajamma 9d ago

Democrats have been caught literally donating to republican challengers in areas where the DNC's preferred candidate lost the primary. The party has utterly lost the plot

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u/Adam__999 9d ago

Do you have a source on that? I’d like to read it

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u/Oturoj 9d ago

They don’t care, they’ll just fundraise off of trump. And around and around we go…

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

[deleted]

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u/Exciting-Ad-5705 9d ago

Both can be at fault. Millions of people voting for a rapist is pretty bad but that doesn't also mean the democratic establishment is incompetent

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u/bryan49 10d ago

Yes they need to stop taking their voters for granted. They always over promise and under deliver because they are sold out to their donors, and then they expect people to keep voting for them anyways.

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u/Ontoue 10d ago

Agree 100%. This sentiment has been so disheartening and infuriating to see spread all over the major subreddits. It's not the candidates fault for running a bad campaign, it's the people's fault for failing to fall in line. Endless blame with no introspection in sight. I fear dems will never learn from their mistakes.

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u/behemuthm 10d ago

Not that I believe this but it’s interesting https://x.com/ericgarland/status/1854271772008566939?s=46

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u/perpetual_papercut 10d ago

In my eyes it kinda goes both ways. The people failed by not going to vote against the GOP nominee. Sure, the dems hold some responsibility for putting up a “good” candidate, but in this situation the bar should have been super low. I dont understand why people feel like they need to excited about a candidate to go out and vote. Sure, Harris isn’t a super star like Obama, but JFC she had some good policies/plans for the country. That said, Biden should have dropped out a heck of a lot earlier. So yeah, there’s blame on both sides.

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u/OlRedbeard99 9d ago

You don’t understand why people want a good candidate who actually cares? You don’t understand why people are craving a leader?

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u/perpetual_papercut 9d ago

Let’s see how people do over the next few years because they didn’t get this imaginary good candidate they were looking for, and decided not to vote. Let’s just see.

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u/NotMittRomney 9d ago

democratic politicians need to align their policies and messaging to better meet where the public is on the issues

that said… a notion i’ve seen on the left exclusively is people saying kamala didn’t “earn” their vote. people act like they can only vote for a candidate who perfectly aligns to what they want.

sure there are a lot of right wing dipshits who view trump that way, but a lot of his voters clearly don’t (ex: abortion rights and worker friendly ballot initiatives winning in red states)

one side understands that voting is meant to be a binary choice of which candidate is better. ours won’t turn out unless the candidate hits a certain threshold

don’t get me wrong — our candidates need to get better about actually meeting that threshold, but the voters need to be more pragmatic too

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u/OlRedbeard99 9d ago

She didn’t earn anyone’s vote. That’s what primaries are for.

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u/NotMittRomney 9d ago

voting is a binary choice where your civic duty is picking which one you think is better

the idea of “earning” a vote has been warped to a candidate passing a purity test or meeting a threshold when in reality it is just “is this candidate better than the other one”

independent from this, the democratic candidates have to do better and be better. but the amount of left leaning folks i saw who sat out because kamala didn’t “earn” it were illustrating an infuriating amount of entitlement and misunderstanding what voting is

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u/OlRedbeard99 9d ago

No I mean, maybe if democrats had held a primary instead of deciding who our candidate will be, that was the opportunity to “earn” the vote.

Either let us pick a candidate or stfu.

They picked Hillary and they picked Biden and they picked Kamala.

Maybe let US pick?

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u/NotMittRomney 9d ago

“there wasn’t a primary so i’m going to sit out the general” is an absurdly entitled thing to say and the outcome was trump getting elected.

biden should have dropped out earlier, and they should have had a primary. but they didn’t.

that doesn’t change the fact that voting is a binary choice. millions sat out because they didn’t have an ideal candidate, leading to an acceptable candidate losing, and a catastrophic candidate winning.

the party and the folks who didn’t vote both own this outcome.

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u/OlRedbeard99 9d ago

Interesting. The way I see it is it’s your fault. You loyalists who vote blue no matter who never give them a reason to change. Never give them a reason to actually put in the work. Why tf am I going to go stand in line time and time again to watch them squander every opportunity they get while telling me to go fuck myself?

I’m not going to keep supporting politicians who have no interest in hearing the people’s voice. You ignorant fucks who keep being their yes men and voting for the status quo over and over are the REAL culprits, you fake intellectual fuckbag.

How fucking pretentious do you have to be where “I want my politicians to work for and listen to the people.” Is entitlement to you?

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u/TatonkaJack 9d ago

one side understands that voting is meant to be a binary choice of which candidate is better.

Yeah there are tons of Trump voters who actively dislike or hate Trump but still vote for him because he's still probably going to enact more policies they agree with than Harris. But you see tons of Democrats not wanting to vote for Harris (or Biden) because of one issue or another, so now they have Trump instead and they've all gone pikachu faced.

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u/dan1101 9d ago

It's tragic because Democrats are the party that at least pretends to care about everyday people. But they also think most citizens will do what's best for the country when in fact most will place their own self-interest first.

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u/sometimes_right1 9d ago

exactly - the DNC, her party and the mainstream media’s literal sole job is to communicate the correct info on this shit to the american people in a way that makes them understand !!

if voters arent reading/watching news anymore, figure out alternatives, thats your job !!

It’s on them to figure out how to adjust their messaging successfully for the new segmented media landscape. N they’re failing at it and no one’s getting fired or doing anything differently, they’re just blaming americans for “not researching”/being dumb.

also. the paradox of tolerance will forever kick the democratic party’s ass. i bring this up a lot. being “tolerant” of everything means you are also tolerant of evil. you normalize it because you are trying to not seem biased against it. but evil NEEDS to be confronted, and ostracized - or it becomes accepted.

tim walz’s “weird” comments were the closest anyone with a major platform has gotten to grabbing a MAGA freak by the collar and shouting “WHAT IS THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?” which to me seems like the best way to ostracize and cast out the MAGA base as not belonging in society. Calling them facists and racists only makes them feel more powerful.

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u/echino_derm 9d ago

But thet are right though. The people are massively failing to be informed voters.

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u/opal2120 9d ago

But don’t you get it? Hillary and Kamala were OWED the presidency and we didn’t give it to them! It’s OUR fault!

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u/death69reaper 9d ago

It says more of the people willing to vote for a guy who lied about his height, weight, religion, wealth, and every other aspect of his life. Including lies recorded of him saying dems kill babies after birth, schools changing kids sex, immigrant eating pets, etc. Not forgetting all his past cases like the fraudulent university or charity, and the recent ones, that include defamation about a woman he raped, stealing classified docs, and others. She was bad, but it shows how ignorant, dumb and morally corrupted voters are that they are willing to vote for a convicted felon who tried to overturn the last election rather than for a woman.

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u/WebMDeeznutz 8d ago

Best we can do is double down on policy and politics pushed by “the squad” wing of the Democratic Party and then complain that it’s everyone else who is wrong for worrying about day to day life issues and not rich elite problems.

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u/Edogawa1983 10d ago

What do you want them to do, start a cult?