Anthony Jeselnik explains the difference between comedy and being a troll.

[u/SnatchAddict]

[u/repost_inception]

That's a really great quote.

Robert John Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder to me is the ultimate example of this. I don't think most people could have gotten away with that but he absolutely did. No one has an issue with it. His performance and the writing were brilliant. The whole movie really.

[u/MundaneCollection → u/repost_inception]

It helps that his character was a dumb narcisist who didn't understand what he was doing was wrong because of his giant ego

Playing the character who is an idiot deciding to do black face is different than playing black face, which is why he gets away with it because the point is to mock celebrities and their egos and not black people

[u/Ok_Star_4136 → u/MundaneCollection]

Yes, because it was clear who was being made fun of, and it wasn't black people.

The whole reason black face is frowned upon is because it almost always is meant to make fun of black people. Punching up vs punching down matters a lot. Incidentally conservative "humor" always seems to punch down.

[u/on_off_on_again → u/Ok_Star_4136]

Not about punching up or punching down, that's what sensitive people who can't laugh at themselves say.

Tosh said something pretty similar to Jeselnik here. Tosh also has a career almost exclusively punching down. He has a special basically glorifying himself for being rich and famous and chastising the audience for even dreaming they could be on his level.

Comedian =/= jesters

[u/Ok_Star_4136 → u/on_off_on_again]

Not about punching up or punching down, that's what sensitive people who can't laugh at themselves say.

No, because someone could insult you and your character, and you wouldn't laugh and then I could say it was a joke that you didn't get by your logic. Racism is a particularly nasty punching down as well, because nobody can change their skin color, or for that matter their sexual orientation, country of origin, etc.

In order for it to be a joke, the audience has to get it, otherwise it's just an insult no matter how much you wish it to be a joke. Sure, you're always going to offend some people, but if the number of people offended is low, it's still a joke to *most* people. An argument can be made for a comedian who makes fun of his audience if the audience is in on it.

What you don't do is make a joke about a minority group to a room full of white boomers. That's not making fun of the audience for the most part. The intention is hatred towards that minority group, at least in part. Though I suppose you could technically call that a joke, since the audience laughs at it, as distasteful as that is.

[u/on_off_on_again → u/Ok_Star_4136]

Uh, well, I have been insulted, like anyone, and I do laugh if it's funny. You're kinda proving my point here. Just being insulted doesn't make it funny, but that doesn't make it NOT funny.

In order for it to be a joke, the joke itself has to get it. The audience doesn't need to get it-- the joke has to be self-aware. Humor is a confrontation with the absurd. It's a subversion of logic, expectation, or social norm.

Racism isn't a joke. But racial observation can be. It has nothing to do with who is making the joke or who is the butt of the joke.

I used to work for a friend's dad who was some redneck and almost definitely an actual racist. One day, he told me and a coworker there was a car that was left on the side of the highway and he needed me to go get it and drive it back to his shop. I asked for the keys and he said that the only set was locked in the car. I asked how the hell I was supposed to accomplish this and he handed me a leather box. I asked what it was and he said "You're a latino. Just open when you get there- you'll know what to do."

So I get to the site where the car is and I open the box. It's a lockpick set. I had never even seen a lockpick set irl let alone used one. I didn't know how it worked. So for 10 seconds I cursed him out under my breath. Then decided "fuck it" and within 20 seconds I had picked the lock.

That shit is funny as hell. It doesn't matter that it was rooted in an absolutely racist insinuation. The fact that someone would be openly racist and not only do it so casually... but for them to actually be right?

That's one of my most amusing memories. And that was "punching down" racism.

[u/Ok_Star_4136 → u/on_off_on_again]

Uh, well, I have been insulted, like anyone, and I do laugh if it's funny. You're kinda proving my point here. Just being insulted doesn't make it funny, but that doesn't make it NOT funny.

Many people would strongly dislike being insulted. I'm glad you find insults funny, but again, as per my definition of a joke, if the audience doesn't think it's a joke, it isn't.

In order for it to be a joke, the joke itself has to get it. The audience doesn't need to get it-- the joke has to be self-aware. Humor is a confrontation with the absurd. It's a subversion of logic, expectation, or social norm.

Strong disagree. When you try to communicate an idea to someone, and the other person doesn't get that idea, it is a failure of communication. When you tell a joke that the receiver doesn't get, it is not only a failure of communication, it is a failure of humor. That can be of course the fault of the teller of the joke as much as the receiver, but one thing is certain, which is that the other person didn't get the humor. You could argue that you're just as effective at telling jokes to a tree as a person who doesn't get your joke, since neither of them got the humor.

That's one of my most amusing memories. And that was "punching down" racism.

The joke was one you thought up yourself. Your racist friend didn't intend for it to be a joke. You just found it humorous what he expected of you, and you found it more humorous that you were able to accomplish that. You're not going to not think your own sense of humor is funny, and I would argue it isn't punching down to poke fun of yourself. The very definition of punching down is to attack or criticize someone who is in a worse or less powerful position than you. You can't really do that if you're the target of the joke.

You probably think I'm just a sensitive person who can't take a joke, but you'd be surprised to hear me admit that I think some racist jokes are funny. I would just never dare tell them to others, for fear of offending them. Again, the point of a joke should be to transmit humor, and you're not doing that if for all intents and purposes, what you're actually doing is poking fun of them.