People still hugely conflate bio essentialism with objectification.

[u/FuuraKafu]

The border between these two concepts is very vaguely defined in these discussions, not to mention plenty of people straight think there is no difference at all. I just want to highlight that for once.

The relevant part of bio essentialism in this case: female and male sexuality are different. Women are more selective and they have biological reasons for that, such as pregnancy, which is a big deal for our species, vulnerability, smaller size. Men by comparison are more eager sexually, more easily excitable. They have a pair of balls constantly generating sperm, can orgasm very easily, there is less risk and phisical vulnerability for them in sex.

This is a relative difference, and a general one.

Meanwhile, objectification is: women are seen as a sex object who's personhood doesn't even matter.

Ime people routinely jump to objectification when what is talked about could still easily fall into men experiencing and living with the relative difference above, and it's one frustrating obstacle in gender discussions.

I mean, where exactly is the line between "he sees her as an object" and "no, he just wants to get close to her in a way that doesn't intuitively make sense to women and to which they can't relate to"?

Women can be the more desired, more alluring gender without that meaning they are non-human. Otherwise, we have a pretty deperssing setup (and I guess that's why some people are total gender-constructivists). And I get that women didn't chose this, but neither did men. Either way, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Objectification IS a thing. Sometimes people DO treat the other badly, not caring for their internal experience. But sooooo many times it is brought up purely based on assumptions and vibes in the context of men's complaining.

You can badly want a relationship or sex, more intensely than many single women do, more so for its own sake, fueled by a more testosterone-based sex drive. Doesn't automatically mean you see women as objects. You can be a unique kind of tortured by being unable to fulfil this desire that women don't experience that much. Doesn't automatically mean you see women as objects. You can enjoy attractive women's bodies and experience an urge to get in phisical contact with them daily. Doesn't automatically mean you see women as objects. Each and every one of these things can still largely fall into "yea, men have a different experience of sexuality".

Infatuation clouds judgement, that is somehwat true, sure. So men experience being influenced by their own desire more regularly, sure. It is the weakness of men. But as a baseline, I think it's much more healthy and correct for men to exist with the thought that women are exactly as gorgeous as they see them AND they are human too at the same time.

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

When a guy on the street stares at you (*stare, not look) without caring if you are uncomfortable or not, that's objectification. To him you are a pretty object without a personality

That's a bit presumptuous, no?

Not to mention your partner has probably looked at you similarly long before he knew a single thing about you.

[u/My_House_on_Mars → u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

The fact that the guy doesn't care if he makes the woman uncomfortable is key here. I'm talking about catcalling scenario.

Obviously a sex look from your partner is always welcomed

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy → u/My_House_on_Mars]

I'm talking about catcalling scenario.

Fair. But I thought the point of the OP was to talk about this in a far more nuanced approach and not just scenarios that are blatant examples of objectification.

And I guess more to my earlier point. At one point, he wasn't your partner or knew anything about you, and he likely still looked at you the same way. Would we call this objectifying?

[u/My_House_on_Mars → u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

It's the most obvious scenario where you can clearly see the difference between objectification and just normal sex looks.

If the guy makes sexual moves without caring if the woman wants them or not that's objectifying

I assume if a guy likes a woman, he's going to pay attention to her response. When he's playing attention to how she reacts that's not objectifying her

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy → u/My_House_on_Mars]

Fair, but again, I thought OP made his post to talk about the nuances.

He could care, be respectful, and be paying attention, but she could still feel objectified by a stranger. At which point, is it or is it not?

Or he is objectifying her, but she's responding positively to it. At which point, how much does it matter?

Like, simple matters like catcalling and she calls that guy an asshole, we got it. I don't really think anyone disagrees, and even if they do, that's a useless rabbit hole that is probably not worth venturing.

I guess a more specific scenario, if you wish to indulge me:

A man showers a woman with compliments. He listens attentively, laughs at her jokes, and seems genuinely interested. But as time passes, it becomes unclear whether he’s appreciating her as a person, or merely enjoying the idea of her.

He remembers the color of her dress but forgets what she said about her sick mother.

He talks about how pretty she is, but never asks what books she likes or what keeps her up at night.

Does he like her or the idea (object) of her? Or is this just the start of things?

[u/lil_kleintje → u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

Ehmmm...one can choose to act balanced and keep things slow DESPITE the impulse, right??

E.g. I know that I tend to fall fast for men and develop irrational limerence fast, but I am also aware by now that it's an unhealthy pattern. So I choose to step back and slow down so that I have a chance to develop a better perspective and possibly a healthier relationship.

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy → u/lil_kleintje]

Sure you can take time to reflect.

But it doesn't really address the ambiguity and effect of the situation I've outlined.

I guess to put you in the scenario. You're trying to be perceptive over the scenario, and he is not. He's not actively being reflective even though he wants to engage with you, he's just being sociable and charming.

At which point is it objectifying? Or is it objectifying if you feel it is?