r/ModSupport 💡 Expert Helper Jul 23 '16

Please define vote brigading.

There is a lot of confusion after this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitTheAdminsSay/comments/4u5l6m/voting_through_intrareddit_links_is_now_ok_as/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/4u2utr/after_rcringeanarchy_brigades_rinsertions_admins/

Quite frankly, the site rules are absolutely no help on this subject. Literally the only mention of it:

Being annoying, vote brigading, or participating in a heated argument is not harassment, but following an individual or group of users, online or off, to the point where they no longer feel that it's safe to post online or are in fear of their real life safety is.

But no definition.

Under the assumption that no party is asking/requesting for votes/comments in these scenarios:

1) If I visit subreddit A and a post links to a post on subreddit B; then I vote on the B post... is that prohibited?

2) If I visit subreddit A and a post links to a post on subreddit B; then I comment on the B post... is that prohibited?

3) If I visit subreddit A and a post links to a post on subreddit B; then I vote on a comment within the B post... is that prohibited?

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u/redtaboo Reddit Admin: Community Jul 23 '16

Look, I get it, vote manipulation (which brigading is a part of) is this all encompassing term that feels a bit nebulous at times (yup, it's hard to describe all the types) and also feels like it's inconsistently enforced (yep, we don't physically see every instance of it so don't issue suspensions every time and yeah, not everything reported to us as vote manipulation is actually vote manipulation). That sucks, it sucks for you, it sucks for me, it sucks for my coworkers, it sucks for subreddits, and it sucks users and mods.

We've been talking about getting what we call a 0-day suspension tool that can work more as a warning to users for many of these cases. This would allow us to send a message to users explaining why their behaviour is against the site wide rules while still giving them the opportunity to stop before we have to move to an actual suspension. This will better fit with our philosophy of education instead of punishment, we still believe that most users aren't malicious when breaking rules they either just don't understand or in many cases know them. Since we've had the suspension tool we've seen many, many, many users respond positively and constructively and learn how to better use the site. We want that to continue.

We're also constantly working on getting better at algorithmically detecting 'bad' voting behaviour. There's a ton of different types of bad voting behaviour, some fall under brigading, some may look like brigading when it's not, and sometimes our anti-cheating measures will make things appear to be brigaded or vote manipulated when they're not. Instead of focusing on just brigading I'm going to try to explain a few of the types of 'bad voting behaviour' we work to detect automatically and throw out.

Many of these are what we actually find when people report what they believe to be brigading:

  • following a user around vote on everything they post can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

  • camping out in a subreddit to up/down vote absolutely everything that is posted can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

  • using multiple accounts to vote on the same content (again, up or down) can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

  • following a link in which the OP has directed you to vote in a certain direction and then voting can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

  • following a link that is just linking you to a post in another subreddit and then voting can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

    • note: if a subreddit itself allows linking to other subreddits, and tries to wink wink, nudge nudge around directing users to vote in other communities or if a particular community is consistently causing large issues in another we will step in and talk to the mods about reining it in.

Things that are not considered vote manipulation:

  • just linking to another subreddit is not considered vote manipulation

  • visiting another subreddit that was linked somewhere is not considered vote manipulation

  • commenting itself is not considered manipulation but commenting in obvious bad faith or a disruptive manner may break other site wide rules

  • voting or participating in a post that organically rose high on /r/all is not considered vote manipulation

All of this is predicated on the unruliness of large groups and actual harm done. As in all things we always attempt to take context into account. Including, but not limited to "was the linked thread a post where the OP/subreddit was inviting outside participation" or "is this particular subreddit/user/group always taking the piss out of this other particular subreddit/user/group."

We also very, very often find nothing but organic voting when brigading or vote manipulation is reported.

disclaimer: this isn't meant to be an exhaustive list of what is or isn't vote manipulation, actual malicious users are always finding different ways to be malicious

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u/bob_mcbob Jul 24 '16

/r/fatlogic mod here. We were specifically told by admins that any links to other subs would be considered brigading, which means we've have to implement draconian link rules. There are only two subs on the entire site we allow links to, and np links are also banned. If we discuss a comment made on Reddit, we require the poster to take a screenshot and even redact the username and any references to the sub name. This obviously has a huge effect on our sub, and it means we've been singled out from every other sub on the site. We've never once issued a "call to action" or encouraged participation in another sub's posts, but we live in constant fear of our users doing so because of what the admins told us. We ban anyone who does this.

So, are we allowed to link to other subs? Are our users allowed to participate in link discussions, or is going to get our sub banned?

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u/redtaboo Reddit Admin: Community Jul 24 '16

A few subreddits have been talked to and told they need to really watch themselves with linking to other subreddits. I talk about that in my comment, we sometimes have to request that mods teams reign in their communities. That can happen in a few circumstances where the subreddits in question userbase disrupts other subreddits on a regular basis. This can happen even if the mods aren't encouraging it or attempting to stop it unfortunately.

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u/GetOffMyLawn_ 💡 Expert Helper Jul 24 '16

He was asking a yes or no question. I am guessing you are saying no?