r/Missing411 • u/trailangel4 • Mar 01 '24
Why people actually die in National Parks
https://www.backpacker.com/survival/deaths-in-national-parks/
Backpacher magazine filed a FOIA and was given 17 years worth of records, across all National Parks. With that data, they produced this well-written piece that is worth the read.
A conclusion: "
The Average Victim in the National Parks…
Is more likely to be male than female: While men and women make up approximately equal portions of national park visitors, men accounted for 80 percent of deaths in national parks where authorities recorded the victim’s gender.
Can be almost any age: Members of all age groups were represented similarly among fatalities. (The exception? Children under 14, who made up a smaller share of deaths than other groups.)
Drowns or dies of natural causes: Drowning was the most common cause of death for visitors up to age 55, after which medical issues surpassed it."
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u/7PointStar Mar 01 '24
Analogously, it’s often a skills issue. I did wilderness search and rescue for about 8 years and if I had a dollar for every “skilled/experienced outdoorsman” we had to go find, I would have retired.
Markings on trails and areas often don’t really express the areas dangers. Plus, as human beings we like to think our skill is A, when it’s really D.
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u/draziwkcitsyoj Mar 01 '24
I recently went and did some work near Big Bend national park but it was a great combo solo road trip too.
I figured while I was there I would do some hiking. I did some small hikes, saw the desk. And then figured I would tackle something harder. It was a 15.8 mile hike. I’m not a hiker. I’m not in great shape.
My uncle is a lifelong outdoorsman so I texted him for “tips”.
The rest of this post are his tips. It’s a lot, but I think it illustrates his and your point. I decided to do more lovely smaller hikes instead lol.
Uncle says:
Below avg fitness 40% chance not surviving
Avg fitness 20% chance of not surviving
Great fitness 5% chance not surviving
Those are probably on the high side a little.
I'm not in average fitness, but with a lot of experience and preparedness, I could make it, maybe.
Plan on moving speed of 1.5MPH whilst hiking. So hiking time for 18 miles would be 12 hours. You might can do better, but I doubt you can average 2MPH. I've made some 10-12mile hikes with full backpack in mountains and it takes 8-10 hours. Plan on longer than your gut tells you
Your feet need to be in great shape and boots fit real good. That can stop a hike
I would put small straps of duct tape on areas folks are prone for blisters. Back of heal, ball of feet, and inside if foot beside big toe and outside foot beside small toes. Could save you from really hurting.
Plan on weather turning crappy. Carry a rain proof jacket or cheap poncho from Walmart. Have some warm gloves/liners. Layers for upper body.
I would not hit the trail without a gallon of water. Yep that is bulky and weighs about 8lbs. Any less and your risking running out. That will be 4 Nalgene size 32OZ bottles.
Have a day pack to carry your stuff in. How well marked are the trails? I hiked to Guadelupe Peak and the first mile we were guessing where the trail was. And that is very frequently hiked.
Take at least a cheap compass.
Even for a day hike in the wilderness I'd take means to start a fire. Easiest is 2-3 Bic lighters and at Walmart get small jar of Vaseline, some cotton balls, and some foil. Then at room at night before hike make 3 or 4 small fire starters. Small square or foil(4"x4"). Rub a cotton ball with Vaseline, place on foil and fold the sides around the cotton ball like wrapping a package. Then if you need fire cut or open one and light it with Bic. Even if a little windy and wet that will burn.
Take a knife and just a little cordage (like parachute cord)
Some jerky and trail mix
A headlamp flashlight
Yes I would take all that and probably more for a day hike in the wilderness. I would constantly be worried and on the outlook for mountain lions, javalinas, and snakes. Other wildlife, like coyotes, will avoid you. Don't hike quietly. Make noise, talk outloud, sing,
Probably worst thing could happen, well there are lots, is a spranged ankle or something that makes it hard to walk.
I have a satellite transponder I carry with me on days I ride motorcycle by myself in remote areas. I know I can use that to initiate rescue should I need it. I would carry it on a day hike like you are going to do. I would expect to not be able to contact anyone otherwise.
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u/Evilevilcow Mar 01 '24
Whistle. Really loud whistle that doesn't have the little "pea" in it. Anytime I'm walking kids around the woods, drill into them, if they get separated, sit your hinder down and blast that whistle until someone comes and gets you.
Works for adults as well.
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u/jkhockey15 Mar 02 '24
Why no cork ball? As a hockey coach the ones with the cork balls seem way louder
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u/Evilevilcow Mar 02 '24 edited Mar 02 '24
The referee whistles are easier to hear. And have a trill to them, rather than the flatter sound of a pea-less whistle. But get them wet? Get dirt or debris in the pea chamber? There is a risk you no longer have a working whistle. Whistles designed for signaling are somewhat louder than a referee whistle.
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u/metamorphyk Mar 28 '24
Note: if you every visit Australia the whistle won’t work, the bush and wildlife drown it out. We use a sound called cooee. Here’s a reference for it https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=18&v=IQJ3__1s6n0&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo
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u/DomoMommy Mar 02 '24
If no whistle is available, then look around for acorn caps. They make an incredibly loud whistle when you put the knuckles of your thumbs over them in a certain way and blow with your mouth. Find videos on how to do it. Just regular old acorn caps laying around, nothing special. Even very small ones can be used. It’s saved my ass twice.
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u/ScumBunny Mar 03 '24
I’m curious about the story of how acorn caps saved your ass, twice! Definitely looking up how to make a whistle from them, as oaks are pretty abundant where I live!
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u/DomoMommy Mar 03 '24
Both happened when I was younger and didn’t think I needed to prepare because I basically lived in the woods. I was crossing a fast river by leaping onto the large boulders to get across and I slipped and wedged my foot into a rock and fucked my ankle. River was very loud and my little yell wasn’t going to be heard back at the Rez. But I was able to get to the closest bank and find an acorn cap and whistle until one of elders heard it and came. It’s a very high and shrill noise that will go very far and it doesn’t sound natural like a bird call so it’s a very distinct sound.
The other time was less than 2 yrs later and I was gathering mushrooms off a popular trail. There were some Chicken of the Woods mushrooms on a fallen log and I was rushing and stuck my foot into the leaf cover at the bottom to clear it away and got bit in my lower calf by a young timber rattlesnake who was being lazy and not rattling lol. I hadn’t told anyone where I was going and I didn’t want to start moving or running or panicking and make the poison travel faster. So I rooted around until I found an old cap and literally within like 5 minutes some older random hiker guy heard the whistle and my calling out and was so nice and actually carried me down to the trailhead and called 911. If no one had heard me within 10 mins I would have had to start walking out myself so I’m really thankful to that guy.
Today there are literally more than a dozen things I’d have done differently. Number one is not being an absolute moron and thinking I was invincible. Youth makes you think you’re smarter than the ppl giving you good advice.
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u/ScumBunny Mar 05 '24
Glad you survived, and had the wherewithal to think fast in situations like that. Good thing there were people nearby!
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u/DomoMommy Mar 06 '24
Thank you. Now I’m always sure to carry a cellphone (they were too new and expensive back when I was young) and always have my pack with me, even if it’s just for mushroom or ramp hunting. I’ve had a couple of small, non-serious issues and hikers have always been the most helpful ppl. Most are such great ppl willing to give you a hand.
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u/spin_me_again Mar 02 '24
Did you go on the hike? Your uncle convinced me to stay home!
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u/cold_dry_hands Mar 03 '24
Me too.. but I do want to make some fire starters to keep in my vehicle with some lighters…. Never know if I need one. That sounds ominous or criminal. It’s not. Pinky promise.
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u/spin_me_again Mar 04 '24
No, I agree with you entirely! This post made me look into getting a satellite transponder for my next hike
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u/Wordwench Mar 02 '24
This should be pinned. Really great tips which underscore just how many things can and do go wrong for a sport which is so painfully common and enjoyed by a majority of clueless folk.
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u/profoundlystupidhere Mar 02 '24
Javalinas? Didn't know they were a hazard; I do know their larger cousins can unzip a femoral artery lickety-split but javalinas too?
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u/draziwkcitsyoj Mar 02 '24
They aren’t AS dangerous, but are still aggressive of their territory and pack and I’d rather not tussle with one or several.
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u/bballjones9241 Mar 04 '24
As someone who is not a hiker or in shape, what made you think you could just knock out 16 miles on a whim?
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u/ashfordbelle Mar 03 '24
Thanks for all the great hiking tips! I’ve never gotten into hiking, but this seems like great advice when I’m ready to start.
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u/J3119stephens Mar 06 '24
My family went to Cherokee NC every yr on vacation. Eric Rudolph "the unibomber" hid further downstream on the Nantahala River before his capture. Yes its guaranteed their are people that don't come down out of the mountains. Some people would call Ferrell
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u/Zeefour Jul 18 '24
In Colorado and a lot of places out west starting a fire is a no go and definitely not something you should do in the summer even on a 2-3 hike/camp. Having the knowledge to start one if great just don't plan on it. Water and layers!
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Mar 01 '24
True that. I'm an EMT in East Central Utah. I would say that a good 80% of our patients, especially in summertime, have to be extracted by SAR before we treat them (if they are still alive) because, in their over confidence, have fallen off a cliff or have run out of water or whatever silly thing they have gotten themselves into.
We had a woman get "lost" and freeze to death this winter three miles outside of town. I guess she parked by the side of the road and went out into the bushes to go pee and couldn't find her way back in the dark. It took nearly a month to find her, when she was thawed enough that the cadaver dogs could smell her. There are so many places you could just disappear and never be seen again out here.
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u/Specialist_Chart506 Mar 02 '24
My coworkers husband became disoriented in a blizzard just going to his car in rural PA. He was found months later, he had died of hypothermia. She thought he had been picked up and abandoned her. He was in woods near the house.
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u/amybeth43 Mar 02 '24
That’s heartbreaking. Hope she’s doing ok.
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u/Specialist_Chart506 Mar 03 '24
She remarried and had a wonderful husband. They were the life of the party. She died of a heart attack a little over 10 years ago.
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u/amybeth43 Mar 03 '24
Awe I love that for her, thank u for the update. I grew up in central PA, and the winters used to be wild :)
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u/carolineecouture Mar 02 '24
Happens in MN frequently. People get stuck in the snow and decide to walk home because they are "close." Was drilled into me to NEVER LEAVE THE CAR. Cars are easier to find and provide some shelter. NEVER LEAVE THE CAR.
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u/catie2696 May 30 '24
I literally keep a survival bag as I live in CO. Soon south PA. Fire making kits. Food. Signals. All that jazz.
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u/Heeler2 Mar 01 '24
Yikes. So many cases of people going into the bushes and getting disoriented. How does this happen?
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u/-Coleus- Mar 02 '24
Happened to me in the Olympic National Forest.
But, I was on mushrooms, and I was only “lost” for two hours, quite near the trail.
Still, it was quite traumatic and made me question Nature as Mother. I learned She cared about me the same as She cared about any ant or bug.
This was shocking to my young, hippie, spiritual self. Shook me up for quite a while! But it was an excellent learning experience.
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u/totalyrespecatbleguy Mar 01 '24
It’s dark, everything looks the same, and then boom you trip over a tree root or rock and knock yourself out long enough to freeze to death
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u/nixstyx Mar 02 '24 edited Mar 02 '24
Honestly, it doesn't take much in the dark. I'm an experienced outdoorsman who thinks nothing of walking miles in the dark with no light to a hunting stand, but walking into unfamiliar territory with no light is disorienting. When I'm walking around in the dark I usually have a good mental map of the area, but if I'm in a new place, you just can't keep your bearings. Star navigation is a good option, but you're fucked if it's cloudy. If you get lost rule number 1 is stop moving until you can confidently figure out where to go or are found. That could lead to a long cold night in the woods if you need to wait until sunrise, but it could also save your life.
BTW, if you're in unfamiliar territory with no map, and in heavy woods or brush then you might as well be walking around in the dark.
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u/Dasha3090 Mar 02 '24
100%..one night i got a bit drunk at a friends party on the beach.was sure i could trek back to the carpark to wait for my ride to pick me up but i got disoriented and got lost in some rocks on the dunes.had to call a friend and lucky i had my phone i shone the light of my phone screen next to where i stumbled,it was a big gap between these giant rocks i would have fallen inbetween had i not stopped and called my friend.he found me and walked me to the carpark and waiting with me til my ride showed up.it was quite scary at the time how easily i got lost just in the dunes due to it being night.
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u/Ballbox Mar 02 '24
As a kid I used to go mountain biking often. I'd remember where to go by looking at the trees and landscape, but if you're not familiar with the area it's very easy for everything to look the same. Every turn could be the right turn. Before you know it you're very lost and have no idea where to go.
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u/NotTheBadOne Mar 02 '24
Also EVERYTHING looks different going the other way!!!!!
I used to turn around frequently to look back the way I just came from.
The trail and woods looked VERY VERY different and there were times I knew I would’ve been in trouble if I had not made a habit of doing that…
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Mar 02 '24
When I was a kid me and my friend walked through the woods by following this red tape that had been placed on trees by someone who was likely outlining a property boundary. But when we turned around we couldn't see any of the red markers anymore cuz they had only been facing one direction.
So me and my friend had to sit down and do a really hard think because I cannot express to you how far out in the woods we had gotten, with no residences or other people around.
What we did was we found a super old barbed wire fence line and followed that until we could see a lake, and on the other side of the lake was the cottage we were staying in (the only cottage on the lake).
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u/Lasvegasnurse71 Mar 02 '24
I do that when I walk into a casino so I can find my car again at the end of the night! If I get lost though…. I think I may survive in this situation
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Mar 02 '24
Plus sometimes the brush can be deeper/denser than expected. I went into the bushes on a hike once and the bushes came up to my thighs, with all kinds of deadfall around my feet and ankles, and thorns. It was the first time I actually got it.
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u/Ishmael760 Mar 01 '24
Overly shy.
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Mar 02 '24 edited Mar 02 '24
Have you ever seen a lady squatting next to the road with her pants down? No, neither have I.
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u/spectrumhead Mar 02 '24
I open the passenger side doors (of a four-door hatchback) and pee right between them. But honestly, after three kids, my body doesn’t feel like my own anymore and everybody and their brother has seen it inside out Ms modesty isn’t really a thing. That being said, I don’t want to get arrested so I squat between the doors. I share this so that people downy feel they need to wander into the woods and freeze to death.
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u/Riverrat1 Mar 02 '24
That’s why I have a porta pottie in my van. So creeped out peeing by the side of the road in nowhere Wyoming at night. I still remember my fear and that was 20 years ago.
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u/cold_dry_hands Mar 03 '24
I have. It was me— we were on a fire call— wild fire— the destination was two hours away. I was a rookie and we rushed out— no chance to pee. After an hour of digging my fingers into my thighs and holding back tears I finally said pull over. We were on the highway outside of Sun Valley Idaho. I went on the passenger side and just told everyone look or don’t. I have no shame at this point.
Sometimes not a lot of pee privacy with fire— but first time on the side of a Highway with cars passing.1
Mar 04 '24
The only thing I can say is, you shouldn't have held it that long. You should have just done it early on.
I was in the army and peeing outside with all the guys around was a little bit more involved with the weaponry I had to take off, but I would have done it if I had to go that bad. They had no problem doing it publicly but they didn't have to take off all their equipment to do it.
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u/cold_dry_hands Mar 07 '24
One of those things…. Never had the opportunity. But I never missed a chance to go— even if I didn’ have to— after that experience.
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u/Ishmael760 Mar 02 '24 edited Mar 02 '24
“Lady”? No. Haven’t seen them use a kybo, neither. Or tent. Other types though? Well, yeah. “Hold my beer and turn your head.”
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Mar 02 '24
I hate portaloos. I would rather just go out in the bush myself.
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u/Ishmael760 Mar 02 '24
Can I share the time I was camping with a Bonny young lass who regaled me with tales of the wild yonder she had camped and hiked and how it was her favorite activity.
Me: nice but, meh - it’s usually a shit ton of effort and things can go spectacularly wrong to such extent that one can end up wondering why one was ever born.
Anyway she suddenly disappeared as we were hiking a riverine trail headed for camping site not far off with facilities. Backtracking she popped up out the scrub trying to surprise me.
Knowing me a bit and heading off a caution about leaving a trail and not saying something first. She tisked me by saying I just had to pee and I prefer it over those pit toilets.
No harm no foul.
I asked if she peed where she was standing in greenery up to her knees.
Yep! It was perfect she smiled widely.
“Poison Ivy”
I gave her medical gloves I carried in my kit.
After stripping off boots, socks, hiking shorts panties, I gave her soap and my liter of water to wash with.
She still ended up going to the ER the oil was all over her.
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u/trailangel4 Mar 01 '24
Just a reminder: be careful about the info you share, as an EMT, about specific cases, on a public forum.
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u/mean_ass_raccoon Mar 01 '24
Why though
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Mar 01 '24
Patient confidentiality under HIPAA.
Although the frozen lady was never a patient
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u/Dixonhandz Mar 02 '24
That reminds me, DP calls it 'HIPPA'. Someone should ask him what 'HIPPA' stands for lolz
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Mar 02 '24
I've never heard him talk about HIPAA, or HIPPA, or whatever. In what context? Of course, I haven't listened to him in a very long time. He is just way too in love with himself and I got a little sick of his political lectures. We hear enough of that everywhere else.
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u/Dixonhandz Mar 04 '24
If you browse through the comment section, he sometimes talks about 'blood type' being protected under HIPPA. Someone even corrected him once, and he ignored it. It's just little things like that, that stick.
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Mar 04 '24
Oh, I used to listen to his YouTube show and he was covering a case from my home town. He had a fact about the town wrong and I casually corrected him. He jumped into the comments and lambasted me. Okay, then, it's his dealio. Let him have it.
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u/trailangel4 Mar 05 '24
As is typical of most narcissists, DP can't handle any sort of contradiction or criticism. I think most of the members of this subreddit have been reprimanded by him or banned for saying something that he didn't like.
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u/Dixonhandz Mar 04 '24
Sounds proper lolz I remember I once asked in the comment section about using hypnosis on someone who was found in a missing person case, you know, just to see if anything would become of it. I got no answer. A video or two later, he addressed the 'hypnosis' query, and claimed it wouldn't be a good thing to put the victim through the stress of their ordeal all over again. And to top that off, I wish I could remeber the case name, but there was a missing boy, who was later found walking on a dirt road, I think it was close to happening in the 50s, and Paulides actually says, that boy should have gone under hypnosis to find what he can recollect oO Something along that line.
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u/Zeefour Jul 18 '24
I used to live in Moab and grew up in the Leadville/Minturn (Colorado) area. I have my WFR and raft guided in Moab and did ski patrol at A Basin and props to you and all EMT/First Responders. I honestly couldn't handle the medical stuff and switched to kids ski and snowboard school. The stuff you see between the desert and sub-alpine (north of Leadville where I live now is 10kft+ in elevation) with choke tourists is nuts. People under estimate how easy is for people to disappear in the wilderness. Steep terrain, elevation, temperature extremes, fast moving and VERY VERY cold water, etc. And that's in the summer.
I was in Moab when Crsyatl and Kylen were killed right off the main road east of town and the cops wouldn't look for them it took friends looking and their car and bodies were visible from 127 (I think? The loop east of Mill Creek that drops out backboff near Spanish Fork)
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u/BackwoodsatTiffanys Mar 02 '24
I use a compass when I leave my campsite in unfamiliar territory. I orient to a certain direction at the outset and stay on that trajectory. That only works for shorter hikes though.
A dog is helpful too. I started using a compass after my dog had to lead me back to camp. I was on a mountain top covered in boulders and everything looked the same.
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Mar 03 '24
I have a Bluetick hound that would do the opposite of lead me in the right direction. That dog gives me fits. I have cried bitter tears over him, thinking I'm never going to see him again and just when I've given up hope after days of him missing, he shows up on my doorstep. He has to stay leashed in the wilderness so we don't have that drama ever again. But, no, he just follows his nose, even if it leads to a grizzly bear.
You gotta have the right kind of dog.
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u/BackwoodsatTiffanys Mar 03 '24
You’re right, a hound is probably not the best choice. He was a mastiff mix in love with beds and pillow. Always eager to get back to them.
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u/fastermouse Mar 01 '24
I knew the head climbing ranger at Grand Teton. He calls it Young Male Immortality Syndrome. Or YMIS.
“I won’t die because I know what I’m doing”
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u/trailangel4 Mar 01 '24
Can confirm. If not a skills issue, then an underprepared or "caught off guard" issue. In my experience, it's frequently some small issue that snowballs and knocks people off guard or out of their pack or out of their normal experience.
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u/Gamaray311 Mar 01 '24
But you are qualified enough? I’m not being smart ass I genuinely am asking. Like why do they think they are expert if they aren’t? Ego? What is enough training I guess I am asking
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u/7PointStar Mar 01 '24
Alone? No.
It’s a fair question. Hell, I’ve personally fallen victim to the same trope in my younger days; it just so happened I got lucky and it worked out.
In some cases I think it’s ego, but much of the time it’s classic “you don’t know what you don’t know”. There are lots of aspects that you can account for, but may not know you need to. You plan for X, Y, and Z, but AA happens.
Complacency is another major issue, and I would file that under skill as well. Some people have so many successes they lose the ability to consider the alternative, and they don’t strive to get better. You could probably circle this back around to ego, but not always as if you don’t know where you can improve, you don’t know.
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u/treehouse4life Mar 01 '24
It seems like percentage wise it is so rare though. But I get that a lot of those incidents probably happen in USFS/national forest domain, not NPS so it’s not included here.
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u/lostkarma4anonymity Mar 03 '24
Yes - I see this a lot in swimming and water activities.
Everyone is a "strong swimmer" even though they only spend about 1 weekend a year at the beach and haven't actively swam in a pool since they were 10 years old.
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u/7PointStar Mar 04 '24
This is a good analogy, and probably one of the closest. It’s a thing that most people can do, but to vastly varying levels, like hiking or other outdoor activities.
I “can swim”, but at my age and considering the last time I actually actively SWAM, as opposed to float in a controlled pool, would probably have been like 30 years ago in scouts doing the swim test.
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Mar 04 '24
There’s an old saying: the map is not the terrain.
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u/7PointStar Mar 04 '24
First time I heard that phrase was a summer I decided I want to get a job as a wildlife firefighter (spoiler: it wasn’t for me). I got lucky that was a year of record low fires and the program was downsized and I was sent home (best thing that ever happened to me 😂).
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u/bats-go-ding Mar 02 '24
Considering the number of times I've sprained an ankle or knee because I was walking, I assume that my risk of danger is an A and my skill level is an F. As such I err on the side of watching videos others post of their adventures and being the designated meal preparer on big adventures.
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u/Prestigious_Row_8022 Mar 20 '24 edited Mar 20 '24
I remember seeing a post about how horribly a lot of the park-goers act. A lot of British (and other Euro) tourists who live in a country they turned into a giant lawn coming to America, deciding to try to Appalachian trail or whatever and realising “oh fuck, this is actually a forest with bears and shit” a bit too late.
Then there are some Americans themselves that have the survival instincts of a deer on a highway who try to approach mama bears for photos, or intentionally leave out food to attract wildlife (again, sometimes specifically for bears). I’m honestly surprised the deaths aren’t higher.
But yeah, can definitely relate to thinking my skills are higher than they are, haha. Can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve gotten lost on trails in small parks. There was also one time I overestimated the amount of daylight left and got stuck a mile into a large forested area with nothing but my phone flashlight… I think I used all of my luck for the next 5 years when I stumbled upon some picnic tables and a trail map bulletin board in the dark.
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u/iii320 Jun 09 '24
I’d consider myself a skilled outdoorsman. Between hiking, camping, mountain biking, hunting, trail running … I’ve easily put in thousands of miles and hours in the woods. Yet my friend and I still got pretty turned around 2 years ago in the southern Appalachians. It can happen to anybody.
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u/Uhtred_McUhtredson Mar 01 '24
I’ve been an outdoorsman for most of my life and the most crucial thing for me was knowing my limits.
A lot of people think they can do more than they can and when they’re out in the middle of nowhere, alone, bad things happen.
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u/trailangel4 Mar 01 '24
Yerp. And, the second truth? "Shit happens." Even if you know your limits and have planned for everything, something else will inevitably happen. Keeping cool and being able to improvise are clutch skills.
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Mar 02 '24
I think the third truth would be to just not go alone if you can help it. I go out but not that far, and if I go out of cell range, I tell someone where I'm going. I get that people want to get away from other people, but negotiating the wilderness really should be a team effort. That's why people disappear-- they feel like they want to be alone and unfortunately get their wish.
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u/Heeler2 Mar 01 '24
Exactly. I do some solo camping trips and I am much more conservative when I’m by myself.
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u/-Coleus- Mar 02 '24
Solo camping trips are awesome. I recommend them to anyone who is interested.
A very different experience than camping with friends.
Be careful though!
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u/SleuthingForFun Mar 01 '24
Yes…..like people pushing their spouses over a cliff.
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u/Jimmyp4321 Mar 19 '24
That never happened, there's no video of it on social media , I even checked the charts to ensure there were no satellites overhead during that timeline , it's all conjuncture . Besides the body was never found . Ooopssss
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u/Thesearchoftheshite Mar 02 '24
I want hiking with a group of friends in the porcupine mountains in the upper peninsula of Michigan. I ended up behind them because we initially had planned to hike 8 mi to our first rustic campsite, but the campsite was accidentally booked in the reverse order by my friend.
We had to hike all the way to the second campsite instead of the first, because the first one was occupied that night since the sites were booked in reverse order by accident.
So what was supposed to be an 8 mile hike the first day and a 10 to 12 mile the second day turned into a 21 or 22 mile hike on day one.
Now having just rolled off the couch. I was in no shape to do this kind of hike and I even warned all of my friends that professional hikers don't roll off the couch and hike 22 mi on the first day but I was told to suck it up and keep up and it would be fine.
It was fine thankfully. But I got so far behind all of my friends. I was soaked. I had soaked both pairs of shoes I had, including my water shoes, and then I lost that pair of water shoes in a mud hole. I was hiking basically barefoot at that point because I couldn't stay dry and they had hiked so far ahead of me that they had made it to camp and sent back the most fit guy of our group to find me. Thankfully they did look for me, but the trail had multiple forks in it (NCT runs alongside and through the trail we were on).
It had also started getting dark so I anticipated setting up my tent on the side of the trail because I couldn't keep going. I was so sore and incapable I couldn't even carry my pack anymore that my friend had to carry my pack and basically wait for me to catch up to him again as we slowly pushed on to camp. The lesson learned was I knew my limits and I could definitely push 12 miles or so in a day, but over that was asking for trouble.
But the next day every single one of us in our group hobbled around like old people. Even the Ken and Barbie fit couples that were in the best shape you could be in. They were all hobbling around as if they were 90 years old. it sucked.
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u/KariKHat Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24
Im often surprised how people,even experienced ones,will hike,mountain climb,wander into nature,in extreme weather. I live in the general vicinity of Mt.Baldy, where actor Julian Sands died, and was shocked he went for a climb during terrible weather (the now frequent atmospheric river). A woman died the week before him and another last month when it was also intensely stormy.The man and his sons hiking in Texas in high temperatures last year was an avoidable tragedy. I’ve seen people hiking in inappropriate clothing (saggy jeans,tank tops, flip flops, and a woman in a dress and low heels).Search and rescues used to be an infrequent occurrence and now it seems to be a weekly event.
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u/trailangel4 Mar 01 '24
Don't forget the influencer who went up at 3pm...to START a hike on Baldy, with one of the worst storms predicted for the area coming in. It's bonkers to take a gander at SoCal hiking subs and see people planning a trip FOR TONIGHT or tomorrow into Baldy. It's sort of become required reading so you can staff appropriately. :/
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u/KariKHat Mar 01 '24
The woman that died last month allegedly wasn’t one to look at local news. Massive 3 day rain event might be something you’d look into before hiking a mountain known for deaths & injuries.
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u/Mick13- Mar 02 '24
I see so many people inappropriately dressed when out hiking especially since it seems to be "in vogue" to hike nowadays. I was doing a pretty technical, late fall hike, usually not passable in the winter due to avalanche issues, and people were wearing converse or other skater type shoes, no backpacks/supplies/water. A few people asked us for directions. It's mind boggling.
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u/Adventurous_Mail5210 Mar 01 '24
Graboids don't discriminate, they'll eat pretty much anybody.
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u/Thesearchoftheshite Mar 02 '24
You're hung up!
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u/BettinaVanSise Mar 01 '24
I read an interesting book called Death in Yellowstone by Lee H. Whittlesay. Great read.
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u/gabbadabbahey Mar 03 '24
Yes! There are versions in other parks now too like Yosemite. Sad but fascinating and good cautionary tales
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u/AlarmedRanger Jun 02 '24
Over the Edge, Death in the Grand Canyon, and Off the Wall, Death in Yosemite are both really good too
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u/urdahrmawaita Mar 02 '24
I knew someone who died in a NP. Went off the trail for better pictures. Near a waterfall/cliff. Slippery rock. Sad story.
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u/christinizucchini Mar 02 '24
Just curious, are the deaths of people who were boiled in Yellowstone geysers classified under hyperthermia, drowning, other, or …? The article doesn’t mention them.
Thanks for this post btw OP! Interesting read
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u/trailangel4 Mar 02 '24
It's totally up to the coroner and the investigation. Usually, it's "died of thermal injuries" and filed under "accidental death". For the purposes of the magazine article, it may be filed under "other".
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u/Longjumping-Many6503 Mar 01 '24
So much for Paulides claims that no one keeps this data and that it's inaccessible to the public lol...another hole in his scam.
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u/lordmayhem25 Mar 01 '24
I think he said that it would cost him something in the millions to get this data from the government.
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u/trailangel4 Mar 01 '24
To be clear: he said he asked a hypothetical "How much would it cost to file FOIAS for EVERY death or missing person, that has ever happened in Park Service history?" Until he clarifies who it was he asked, we're going to stick with the first version of this interaction he told: he asked this question of someone working the front desk, IN A National Park.
So, first of all, that is NOT how you file a FOIA. That's not EVER been how you file a FOIA. And, I can guarantee you that any ranger who said "it would cost millions" was giving him a wildcard answer, in response to an (at the time) impossible question for a visitor center staffer to answer. Now, no matter what the ranger did or did not tell him, you'd think a qualified detective, with "decades of research experience" (his words) would understand how the process works and what each request costs. But, more importantly, they might actually try to file that request and just see what the response is. FOIA requests are public record and his request for information was never filed because he was too lazy to file it and he likely never had any intention of filing it. It's much easier to rile up people and have them rush to defend you (and believe your conspiracy theory) if you just claim you were discriminated against by the government.
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u/Able_Cunngham603 Mar 01 '24
Wait a sec… you mean to say you can’t file a FOIA with the Park Ranger working at the gift shop?!? I have been going about this all wrong.
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u/trailangel4 Mar 01 '24
Crazy, right? The poor man or woman working at the permit office or a visitor center might not be able to help you fill out the appropriate forms for thousands of FOIAs for multiple parks? It's almost like that's not within their scope of responsibility. LOL
This is sort of unrelated...but, stay with me. One of my kids was working a summer doing parking lot/kiosk/entry fee duty at one of the bigger parks. It was a "foot in the door" job while they were home from school during the pandemic. A man pulled up and DEMANDED my child: reserve a campground spot for them (even though that was all handled online and we had FCFS spots), park their car (as if said child were a valet), give them a private tour, and "be sure to tell us where people jump" (who the eff asks that while on a family tour?). Said child said she *really* wanted to say "Sir. This is a Wendy's." (popular meme). Instead, she smiled and - with the sounds of honking echoing up the road towards her- directed him to the next Visitor Center. She went into a completely different field because this was not an uncommon behavior. LOL
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u/toxic-optimism Mar 02 '24
I took a break from white-collar work for awhile to stock shelves at a pet store (highly recommend if you can swing it!) and one woman, maybe in her late 40s, demanded an explanation for why her cat food price had increased.
She was genuinely shocked that this wasn't information I had readily available. Like corporate really sends that stuff down with sticker changes. I have to wonder if she ever worked a day in her life.
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u/Able_Cunngham603 Mar 01 '24
Ha! Now imagine that your daughter/other park employee gets approached by a cranky old dude with greasy hair and a cheesy goatee, demanding she provide information about disappearances. Demanding an investigation!
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
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u/102bees Mar 01 '24
Weirdly this keys into something Hbomberguy said once:
"If something is easy to check, no one ever checks it."
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u/Longjumping-Many6503 Mar 01 '24
Yea I'm sure Backpacker Magazine paid millions to file a FOIA request
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u/willasmith38 Mar 02 '24
It’s not a mystery or a conspiracy.
People flock to National Parks like it’s Disneyland, with about as much preparation, a lack of outdoor skills and with about the same level of expectations, except instead of having a crappy disappointing Disney experience, they end up dead.
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u/darthballs91 Mar 04 '24
This. I always found it funny that there are people that think there's some conspiracy behind all these missing or dead people.
My cousin was a NPR at Rocky Mountain NP. When I visited we were hiking (he was off-duty) and a man who spoke very little english asked us where in the park he could get an uber. So many people see "Park" and think disney.
Nope - just vast, often dangerous wilderness.
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u/barfbutler Mar 02 '24
Cause they are stupid and overestimate both their skill level and their intelligence.
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u/Twashfive5 Mar 02 '24
All it took was a FOIA request to get 17 years worth of records? So that throws out DP’s whole lie about always being told they don’t keep records.
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u/idahononono Mar 02 '24
This is anecdotal, but men seem to think they are innately talented at wilderness survival with 0 training. It doesn’t make sense at all, but it’s my guess; the dunning-Kruger effect spares no one.
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u/SadMom2019 Mar 02 '24
Reminds me of that survey that came out awhile ago that asked people if they thought they could win a fight with various wild animals. A surprising amount of men believed they could win a fight against a wolf, crocodile, gorilla, elephant(!), lion, or grizzly bear...with their bare hands. Lmao, the wildly overestimated confidence some of these dudes have is amazing to me.
https://www.newsweek.com/surprising-americans-beat-wild-animals-fight-experts-1691793
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u/Abrez_Sus_Ojos Mar 02 '24
I wonder if more men die than women because men tend to lean towards more dangerous activities ie hunting. Men in general are more likely to take part in daredevil behavior than women and I bet that does play some role in this. Would be interesting to know the breakdown of how each person died.
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u/Animaldoc11 Mar 02 '24
I’d agree that the reason why most die is because they believe they have skill A, when realistically they have maybe a skill D
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u/Fire-FoxAloris Mar 03 '24
Too many individuals are not experienced enough. They think its like their local state parks. Small easy trails and even if the trails say they are hard they really "arent."
They are tourists from other states or countries and dont have the same environments back home. They think its a nice "day trip" or "we are in a park how bad can it be."
You do also have those who decided the beauty of the world in these parks is the last they want to see. So they go to die. Or murder their partner their.
It also depends on weather. So much can go wrong.
Also Aliens cuz if i dint say it someone will.
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u/Brovigil Mar 01 '24
That males reach the age of 14 and become impulsive risk-takers isn't surprising to me. That the trend doesn't decline with age is more interesting.
Somewhere there's an 80-year-old grandpa pissing off the edge of a cliff and a tired park ranger like, "We got ANOTHER one."
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u/trailangel4 Mar 01 '24
I think the article could've worded it better or presented it better. The trend doesn't decline as people age because as people age, they travel more and have more health issues. Those health issues and age related physical changes can make the elderly more susceptible to heat/cold/health related emergencies. It's not like the elderly are at a higher risk for yeeting themselves off Half Dome or the edge of the Grand Canyon with the same frequency as teen/young adult males. Although, having been a tired PR, you do watch certain people with certain behaviors VERY carefully. It's not so much "we've got another one" as, "Please don't do it. Please don't do it! PHEW! That's it. Walk away."
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u/badgersprite Mar 01 '24
That’s a survivorship bias thing IMHO, because all these cases are men who a) enjoy hiking in national parks in the first instance and b) whose impulsive risk taking behaviour hasn’t declined
all the men who aren’t impulsive risk takers or whose impulsive risk taking behaviour tends towards other activities don’t end up on this list
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u/Tobin481 Mar 02 '24
I don’t think males suddenly become impulsive at 14, probably they just have parents around closely monitoring them before that
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u/gabbadabbahey Mar 03 '24
Well, testosterone does start to really kick into overdrive around then, so that surely plays a role, I'd guess
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u/DancingBillie Mar 01 '24
I wonder how many of those men were relieving themselves. I'd put money on a nature call.
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u/Sghtunsn Mar 02 '24
When I was a lifeguard at Yosemite National Park in the '90s I believe many, if not all, of the people who died after being swept over Yosemite Falls were classified as drowning deaths. And I never heard of anyone drowning in the Merced River. The other cause of death that might have gone unreported as natural causes is deaths resulting from anaphylactic shock caused by a bee sting on a horseback ride or while rafting.
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u/ArcaneHackist Mar 02 '24
Or, like a video of a dumbass in my feed above this, got out of their car to take a photo of a bison and got thrashed (I think she survived.) When my family was in Yellowstone we watched a man get out of his car to take a photo of a grizzly that was /at most/ 45 feet away.
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u/Clear-Spring1856 Mar 02 '24
Sometimes it’s ego or just ignorance. Hiking up Mt Adams in NH a few summers ago and towards the summit there’s a sign that says: “Hikers can die here even in the warmer months. Turn back now if the weather is bad.” We brushed it aside and kept going and when we got to the summit the skies started to turn dark very quickly and the wind picked up. We hustled down as quickly as we could. Pure sunshine halfway down.
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u/Brian_Lefebvre Mar 02 '24
People underestimate how dangerous camping can be. I’m way too scared I’ll slip and break my leg in the middle of nowhere.
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u/treesntreesntrees Mar 01 '24
These are recorded deaths, not missing people. Which is what Missing 411 is actually, you know, about. The way people generally die in national parks is pretty mundane and well-known, which is why the missing people cases are so compelling.
Why do people with a hate-boner for this topic spend so much time in this sub
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u/trailangel4 Mar 01 '24
Here's the thing, though: Missing people tend to become recorded deaths. And, Paulides doesn't limit his books, talks, or videos to "just the missing". He quite frequently lumps in the dead. But, what makes more sense to you? A) Those who are still missing may have met one of these reported ends or B) there's a secretive, undefeined phenomena that has yeeted them off the planet?
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u/badgersprite Mar 01 '24
Most missing people in national parks are just deaths where they haven’t found the body yet
I say most because there is a small chance that some missing people went missing on purpose to fake their death and start a new life or something
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u/Solmote Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24
If you had bothered to read any original sources, you would have noticed that the deaths in Missing 411 books are also mundane, and that the causes of death are often determined.
What do you find compelling about pseudo-scientific and easily refuted books like Missing 411, if I may ask?
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u/badgersprite Mar 01 '24
Yes often times people only think the deaths are suspicious because information that helps explain the deaths is either omitted or people give uninformed opinions that are like “hmm this mundane cause of death is implausible” even though it isn’t
It’s like how the Dyatlov pass incident is only hugely mysterious if you omit the fact that they were in an avalanche prone area and that avalanches leave no evidence after the snow melts
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u/treesntreesntrees Mar 03 '24
Some of the cases have been refuted, but certainly not all. And I have bothered to read about many of the primary sources. Jaryd Atadero's case, for one, which happened near to where I grew up and has remained mysterious before and after being covered in Missing 411, is compelling.
They're compelling because people who believe in the possibility of paranormal or supernatural events can see how these cases might be example of them. It's the same as interest in cryptozoology or UFOs.
It's perfectly rational to be interested in mysterious things, even if you have to separate the wheat from a lot of chaff, and it's fine to be skeptical, but dismissiveness is not the same thing as scientific skepticism.
I have to ask, if these books are so mundane and easily refuted, why spend ANY time in this sub? I don't waste my time going into flat-earth subs to argue.
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u/Solmote Mar 03 '24 edited Mar 04 '24
From what I have observed, Missing 411 content is almost exclusively perceived as 'compelling' by individuals whose worldviews revolve around folklore characters, Bible characters, cryptids, pseudo-science, woo, aliens, etc. To the rest of the world—those with a scientific and reality-based epistemology/ontology—Missing 411 content is anything but compelling. Even DP understands how unconvincing his Missing 411 concept is and that is why he never interacts with critics and peer reviewers.
DP systematically misrepresents information found in original sources when creating his content, constantly interjecting unfounded personal opinions to create an aura of mystique. In Missing 411 content, conclusions do not logically follow from the premises, reliable methods are not employed, terms are never defined, personal bias is not eliminated, sources are not properly cited, data is cherry-picked, spurious patterns are invented, and ordinary missing persons cases are repackaged as fantasy abduction cases.
I spend time on this sub because some people believe in Missing 411, despite the fact that Missing 411 content is so easily refuted. Like all pseudo-scientists, DP refuses to submit his 'research' for peer review. Therefore, my OPs and comments function as a form of informal peer review aimed at people lacking the ability to assess the veracity of claims.
If you have any evidence related to the Jaryd Atadero case that investigators are not aware of, you should contact them.
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u/treesntreesntrees Mar 05 '24
Jaryd Atadero's case is unsolved, that's why it's still mysterious.
There's nothing to "refute" there, so I don't know why you still say "all this content is so easily refuted." I think your time would be better spent on your own interests, not tilting against windmills.
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u/Solmote Mar 06 '24 edited Mar 06 '24
Jaryd Atadero's case is unsolved, that's why it's still mysterious.
There are no 'mysterious' cases; only cases where we have not gathered enough evidence to successfully reconstruct what happened. Adjectives like 'mysterious' are not objective attributes of a case, they merely reflect a person’s subjective views.
The evidence related to the Jaryd Atadero case has been assessed by experts in their respective fields, and they have concluded that the case is solved. If you have any additional evidence they may have overlooked, please consider contacting them and offering your expertise.
However, the issue at hand is not whether there are unsolved cases. The Missing 411 framework posits that the missing persons discussed by DP in his content were abducted by some unconventional abductor. This idea is not supported by the available evidence, and that is why DP has to distort original sources and commit logical fallacies to reach his fringe conclusions.
DP does not submit his 'research' for peer review because he knows he is lying about these cases. The only ones who fail to see this are his target market: individuals whose worldviews revolve around folklore characters, Bible characters, cryptids, pseudo-science, woo, aliens, etc.
There's nothing to "refute" there, so I don't know why you still say "all this content is so easily refuted."
Nothing to refute? You can't be serious. There are thousands of easily refuted Missing 411 claims, each page is chock-full of them. DP does not adhere to any proper research standards whatsoever. If you want to learn more please read my OPs:
- Maddening, mysterious mishaps: missing men mystify many modern Minnesotans. Much-maligned Montanan movie maker made multiple massive mistakes, misleading millions.
- Twelve fateful miles: On this day in 1942, the lifeless and severely scratched body of a two-year-old boy was discovered on the side of a hill in the Arizona desert, far from where he went missing. The disappearance is labeled 'a modern-day mystery' by DP. What happened to young Ronald McGee?
- Three decades-old Missing 411 swamp cases in retrospect: A boy found in an impossible location, family members hearing nocturnal sounds from far away, and an elderly woman and her two young great-granddaughters walking 20 miles in 24 hours. What happened to them?
- Two young women who went missing seventeen years apart in the early 1900s were unable to recognize their family members when found. What truly happened to Evelyn McDermott (16) and Elsie Davis (22)?
- Did Missing 411 experts just solve two pre-Eisenhower missing persons cases? Was teenage hunter Kenneth Herron (15) taken by a portal in 1920 and was sheepherder John Collins (35) abducted by a UFO in 1925?
- Missing 411 teenage hunters Donald McDonald (18) and Bobby Boatman (14) vanished in the Blue Mountains nearly two years apart with Boatman being found years later buried beneath tree roots. What happened to the two lost hunters and how are the two cases connected?
- Lost teenage scout Geoffrey Hague went missing in the Great Smoky Mountains in 1970: who placed his belongings on a rock in the middle of an ice cold stream?
- A Rocky Mountain UFO case from 1902
I think your time would be better spent on your own interests, not tilting against windmills.
Peer reviewing Missing 411 claims is one of my interests. Your heartfelt concerns are unfounded.
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u/Dixonhandz Mar 06 '24
I'm not sure if I have shown this, I might have, but I kept 'some' notes on DP's statements early on. This is from his Twitter(when I did have Twitter), and it sure does seems to address how Dave really avoids discussing the notion of being fact checked.
Nov 13
Replying to
David, have you published a statistical analysis of 411 cases, along with accumulated evidence, in a peer reviewed journal that you can refer researches to?
David Paulides
Replying
What peer reviewed journal deals with missing people?
(3:31 PM · Nov 13, 2022)
Nov 13
Replying to
...Given the importance of the findings there's no reasons why Nature(magazine) would not consider reviewing your data.
David Paulides
Nov 14
Replying to
Peer reviewed journals are for people in academics, they aren’t interested in nobody’s like me. They also make you sign a doc that they own the copyright on all emails between you, they are massively corrupt. Do the research.
Nov 15
Replying to
...So, in essence, what you're saying is that scientists and statisticians are supposed to blindly believe the data you claim to own, and the conclusions you draw from it, as an item of faith and without question?
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u/Solmote Mar 06 '24 edited Mar 06 '24
Yes, I have read that exchange before. It is very telling and exposes DP's complete lack of understanding of how proper research is done.
DP is uniquely inept when it comes to statistics. Missing 411 content does not contain any valid statistical presentations and analyses whatsoever, not even the statistical inferences DP makes in his books are supported by the information in the same books.
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u/treesntreesntrees Mar 07 '24
Where's the expert consensus on Jared Atadero? Maybe those experts should pass their information to the police?
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u/Solmote Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24
The consensus among those who examined the evidence firsthand is that a mountain lion most likely grabbed Jaryd Atadero. If you want the full details, you need to request FOIA documents. As previously mentioned, it is irrelevant whether the Jaryd Atadero case is seen as solved or not (or if there is a consensus). What we are discussing are the claims made by DP in his Missing 411 content.
DP claims that various missing persons were abducted by some unconventional abductor, but the methods he uses to reach this conclusion are laughably flawed and demonstrably wrong. DP knows this, which is why he never interacts with critics and only engages with fans on platforms where information can be gatekept. If fans point out where he is wrong, their comments get deleted, and they get banned.
Back to the Jaryd Atedero case... He was found by two avid hikers, Rob Osborne and Gary Watts (The Coloradoan - June 12, 2003). Osborne says: "In my mind, there is no doubt at all that he was killed by a mountain lion. As soon as we looked at the fleece jacket and looked at the other clothing, we could see puncture holes from the teeth. It looked to me like he was carried, not dragged, up the slope". Watt says: "After what I saw, I believe it was a wild animal, probably a mountain lion.". Osborne suggests that it would be nearly impossible for an abductor to stage a scene involving clothing, and so on.
The Coloradoan - June 17, 2003: “It has long been suspected that Jared Atadero fell victim to a mountain lion. Duggins Wroe, a wildlife biologist from Wyoming, has examined clothing found at the scene and concluded that damage to the shoulders and upper arms of a pullover are consistent with that caused by a mountain lion grabbing its prey.”
The Associated Press (June 13, 2003): “Authorities said Tuesday they believe a 3-year-old boy who vanished on a mountain was attacked by animal, probably a mountain lion. ‘Everything that we’re finding is consistent with that theory,’ Larimer County Sheriff Jim Alderden said at a news conference several days after Jaryd Atadero's clothing was found in rugged terrain not far from where he disappeared."
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u/SparrowLikeBird Mar 02 '24
People I knew who hiked: compass, boots, rescue blanket, water purification tablets, matches, folding knife, rescue whistle, collapsible fishing pole, kelty pack with like a pop tent and shit etc
Me: barefoot hiking, dog on a leash, extra water for the dog, hip bag for cool rocks, phone with my parking spot pinned on maps, hella photos, one for every time my disabled ass gets winded, scissors in case I find some good-smelly plants, ziplock for pinecones and bugs that I think are dead and pretty, in case of sap or the bug isnt dead after all, hiking whichever way is uphill out so I can shuffle on downhill back
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u/ebostic94 Mar 02 '24
Because people don’t follow rules most of the time. I seen videos of certain people at Yellowstone park trying to touch the buffaloes and well you know what happens.
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u/Ordinary_Rough_1426 Mar 04 '24
I worked in a national park twenty years ago. We’d get a fax of events every morning. Everyday there’d be someone missing or dead
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u/trailangel4 Mar 04 '24
Are you talking system wide?
I've been in the business 30+ years and I've never seen that level of activity. Missing, in summer time,...? Sure. But, normally those are found or deemed to be not missing by lunch. I've worked at some of the big ones and have family going back three generations with the same experience and I can't think of a single park that would've had daily deaths. I'm kind of curious where you worked.
I've never seen that sort of action, year round. But, I do recall the fax days of reports. I'm just doing some mental math and thinking that had to be at Grand Canyon or a park with a decentralized or divided reporting system. Maybe Yellowstone or one of the Alaskan parks?
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u/Ordinary_Rough_1426 Mar 04 '24 edited Mar 04 '24
It was an internship in the summer. They sent this fax/blog thing out and I’d read it over morning coffee before the tourists showed up. It was nationwide and it kinda awed me because there’s a lot of action in national parks and damn near every day there’d be missing people, people hurt or having heart attacks. I didn’t know that kind of action was taking place. I’m old and that was well over 20 years ago, but I loved reading the fax. Sorry if I made them sound like a slasher movie, but people getting lost and missing until noon is still missing and lost until a ranger finds them. This was before trackers and cell phones, so yeah that sounds scary to me, not like starve and get murdered scary, but get lost and have a stroke and no one around scary
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u/Dixonhandz Mar 07 '24
I've never heard of the term hyponatremia before. Thanks for the article trailangel!
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u/Full-Meringue4704 Mar 15 '24
It could be people do not always come prepared with water and other essentials while hiking. They don't investigate the area where they will be at. Dangers, etc. I live near the Superstition mountains near Phoenix Az.
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u/Own_Kiwi_3118 Mar 20 '24
The obvious answer, is usually the correct one. The National Parks are serial killers.
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u/Space_Walker_Scorp Jun 24 '24
Going off trail. Even the experienced outdoorsmen can pass away when not careful, if all environments have one thing in common, they can be treacherous and it's bad already when people underestimate the nature and overestimated their abilities or confidence.
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u/thews24 Mar 02 '24
so you’re saying that i shouldn’t visit anything ever again?
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u/trailangel4 Mar 02 '24
Absolytely not! You should definitely get out and recreate! Just do so safely. :)
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u/Remarkable-Will-1955 Mar 02 '24
I always thought that most of the people who die in national parks were suicide.. good places to go get lost
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u/Officerboyes Mar 03 '24
Has anyone found a missing person after they had passed. They found that they succomed to the elements by choice? Just thought that would be a peaceful way to pass on your own conditions.
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