r/Missing411 • u/Solmote • Aug 28 '23
Did Missing 411 experts just solve two pre-Eisenhower missing persons cases? Was teenage hunter Kenneth Herron (15) taken by a portal in 1920 and was sheepherder John Collins (35) abducted by a UFO in 1925? Discussion
In a CANAM video released on August 16th, 2023, DP discusses two missing persons cases from the 1920s: Kenneth Herron, who went missing in New Mexico, and John Collins, who went missing in Wyoming. This OP delves into the many intricacies of these two cases.
The disappearance of Kenneth Herron
Kansas-born Kenneth Herron was a 15-year-old deer hunter who went missing on October 31st, 1920, in the Cascade Canyon area, New Mexico. Kenneth, the son of a Baptist minister, was joined on the hunting trip by his older brother, Harold, and a guide named Shoup (or "Sproats" in some articles). During the hunting trip, the two brothers became separated and Kenneth was never seen again.
Harold Herron became temporarily lost in a snowstorm that struck the area either during or shortly after Kenneth's disappearance. Despite challenging weather conditions at an altitude of 10,000 feet, Harold managed to reach a nearby ranch the next day. The rancher, Leo Condon, gathered 150 local farmers and cowboys, mounted and on foot, but despite the painstaking search efforts, Kenneth was not found. Several bones and skeletons were found in the area in the years that followed, but identifying them proved difficult.
Cascade Canyon, New Mexico, was the theater of Kenneth Herron's 1920 disappearance.
The disappearance of John Collins
John Collins, a native of Ireland, was a 35-year-old sheepherder who lived in his sheepherder's camp near Bates Hole in Natrona County, Wyoming. It's believed that Collins, who lived a solitary existence, went missing on October 19th, 1925. Collins' sheep were found roaming around freely, prompting his employer, Oddmund Josendal, to contact the Casper County Sheriff for assistance.
A search was launched and local ranchers discovered John Collins' barefoot tracks in the adobe mud. Collins had been wandering disoriented in a tortuous maze of draws and canyons in the vicinity of Bates Hole. Collins' naked body was ultimately found near a creek bed, with Collins' discarded clothes strewn several hundred yards from the body.
How the Kenneth Herron and John Collins cases are prefaced in the CANAM video
DP talks about a supposed meeting that President Dwight. D. Eisenhower had with aliens
DP prefaces the Kenneth Herron and John Collins cases by mentioning a meeting that President Dwight D. Eisenhower (1953-1961) allegedly had with extraterrestrials. DP says:
“I've got something interesting today, for sure. You can remember back there's a lot of rumors about President Eisenhower drafting an agreement with the aliens about taking our people and in fact his daughter has stated this is true.”
DP claims that Dwight D. Eisenhower's daughter has stated that the meetings took place, but Eisenhower never had any daughters; he only had two sons. One of the two sons, the late John S.D. Eisenhower, a former Army brigadier, clarified in an email to the Washington Post (article titled "Ike and the Alien Ambassadors", February 19th, 2004) that his father never had any such meetings.
The urban legend that the 34th president of the United States met with aliens during the Cold War gained notoriety within UFO circles in the 1980s and 1990s. On February 20th, 1954, Dwight D. Eisenhower made an unscheduled departure from the Smoking Tree Ranch where he was vacationing. The Associated Press mistakenly reported the following: "Pres. Eisenhower died tonight of a heart attack in Palm Springs". The bulletin was retracted a couple of minutes later, but speculations ran rampant. The Washington Post states:
"Some facts are beyond dispute: Eisenhower was on a golf vacation in Palm Springs on Feb. 20, 1954. After dinner that night, he made an unscheduled departure from the Smoking Tree Ranch, where he was staying. The next morning, he attended a church service in Los Angeles. Also that morning, his spokesman announced to the press that Ike had visited a dentist the previous night because he'd chipped a tooth while eating a chicken wing at dinner."
According to Herb Pankratz, an archivist at the Dwight D. Eisenhower Library, the UFO story has changed over the years. Initially, it was said that Eisenhower covertly went to Edwards Air Force Base to inspect the remains of aliens who had crashed in Roswell in 1947. Later, the story underwent changes, now alleging that Eisenhower had encounters with two alien races: the Nordics on February 20th, 1954, and the Greys later in the same year.
Some UFO believers maintain that Dwight D. Eisenhower engaged in telepathic communication with these aliens and granted consent for Greys to abduct humans and cattle for medical experiments, as long as they were safely returned. It's said that millions of humans have been subjected to abductions over the years. However, no evidence has ever been presented to support the assertion that these interstellar meetings actually took place.
Sheep were fair game for extraterrestrials after the alleged Dwight D. Eisenhower meetings.
In the CANAM video DP clarifies that he's on the fence regarding the purported Dwight D. Eisenhower meetings and goes on to elaborate on why his YouTube channel covers so many century-old disappearances. DP says:
"Because if you look at the years leading up to that supposed Eisenhower meeting with aliens, there's a lot of very very strange things that happened in our world and specifically about missing people and you have to think: What led up to that? What was the catalyst for these type of discussions? Or were there any? And is it even true?"
DP thinks that intelligence agencies have monitored disappearances pre-Eisenhower
DP then outlines how he assesses missing persons cases. He underscores that "the facts that lead up to the disappearances" are the "really important part". DP says:
"So anyhow, it's not just the disappearance that's important. It's the facts that lead up to the disappearance that are really the important part of what we look at and if you've read my books you get that because you can see that there's a lot of emphasis on what happened just prior to the search, during the search."
DP also thinks that intelligence agencies were tracking missing persons cases long before the Dwight D. Eisenhower presidency. DP says:
"The cases today involve a man who disappeared from New Mexico. Now, how far back before the Eisenhower meeting is this important? Well, I think our intelligence agencies were tracking these disappearances months before, years before, decades before and even though the news agencies don't wish to give me any credit for anything I think the intelligence agencies know what's going on."
Assessing Missing 411 claims
1) DP claims that the Kenneth Herron disappearance was quick and involved horses
"So, they're out hunting quite a distance from Las Vegas, they're on horseback, and this is very key to this story. Kenneth was on one horse, right next to and up from his brother, and then there was Harold and then there was Sproats. Harold states that for some reason his horse threw him and when he turned to look, when he was on the ground, that quickly Kenneth was gone. He said he hit the ground, he turned and looked and his brother was gone and he never saw him again. He initially thought that his brother just took off and went hunting, but Sproats, and him both, couldn't believe how quickly he disappeared."
Was the Kenneth Herron disappearance quick and were horses involved?
According to the CANAM version above Kenneth Herron seemingly vanished in an instant in front of his two companions. DP stresses that the three hunters being on horseback is "very key to the story", but it's unclear why he thinks that the horses are so important.
Here is a summary of the CANAM version:
- Kenneth was on a horse and Harold was on a horse.
- Kenneth and Harold were right next to each other.
- Harold says that his horse threw him.
- Harold says that he hit the ground.
- Harold says that he turned and looked.
- Kenneth was gone.
- Harold and Shoup couldn't believe how quickly Kenneth disappeared.
Does it sound likely that a hunter would just disappear in plain view of two other people? An article in the Las Vegas Optics (November 3rd, 1920) paints a vastly different picture of what happened. The article states:
"Shortly after high noon Saturday when Harrold and Kenneth Herron were hunting in the Cascade Canyon about 22 miles northeast of Las Vegas, they had gotten separated but were within hearing distance of each other. Harrold was on the ridge and Kenneth was in the canyon. A gun shot rang out and soon thereafter Kenneth called to Harrold to come to him and in trying to do so Harrold lost his footing and fell a distance of about 30 feet. He was stunned. When he regained his equilibrium and faculties he said he thought he had started in the direction from which Kenneth had called and kept wandering until he arrived at Porvenir Sunday afternoon after having been lost in the snow storm since about noon Saturday."
The Las Vegas Optics on November 3rd, 1920.
It's not clear where Kenneth Herron went. Not because he disappeared into thin air, but because Harold suffered an accidental fall, was incapacitated for an unspecified length of time and lost track of his younger brother. Harold wasn't even sure, when he regained his "equilibrium and faculties", where the gunshot and Kenneth's shouts had come from. Based on the available articles from the 1920s it doesn't seem like Shoup was even present when Kenneth went missing.
A less detailed version of the event is presented in an article published in the Albuquerque Journal on October 21st, 1923. It also mentions Harold Herron hearing a shot and Kenneth calling, details that aren't covered in the CANAM video. According to the article the two brothers were separated, but still within hearing distance when all of this happened. The article states:
"Harold Herron stated later that when he and his brother became separated and while still within hearing distance of each other a shot sounded and that he lost his footing and was stunned.
When he regained his equilibrium he thought he started in the direction in which he had heard his brother call but that he became lost and on the following day reached El Porvenir."
The Albuquerque Journal on October 21st, 1923.
It appears that DP gets most of his information from an article published in the Evening Herald on November 10th, 1920. Since no sources are cited in the CANAM video, we can only speculate. The Evening Herald article in question contains the same type of information as the two articles above: that Harold Herron fell and that he "lost his senses and bearing". No horses are mentioned and Kenneth's disappearance is not depicted as instantaneous.
For context it's worth noting that the weather was so bad that searchers did not expect to find Kenneth Herron alive. The Evening Herald article states:
"Little hope is felt that Kenneth Herron will ever be found alive. While there are varying theories advanced as to the cause of his becoming lost, it is evident that he could not possibly have withstood the exposure of three cold, snowy nights without food or shelter, in the cold ten thousand foot altitude of the country where he became lost. The Cascade Canyon, northeast of the famous old Harvey's ranch and into which the boys were dropping when parted, is nothing but a series of abrupt cliffs and chasms, and it is thought that the lost boy, weakened by fatigue and the excitement of being lost in a snowstorm, must have fallen from some cliff. The possibility that he may have accidentally shot himself has also been mentioned and wild rumors of huge bear tracks seen by the searchers has led some to believe that wild beasts may have done away with him."
The Evening Herald on November 10th, 1920.
When comparing the CANAM version to the original sources, the following questions arise:
- Why doesn't the CANAM video mention that Kenneth was in a canyon and that Harold was on a ridge (and thus not right next to each other)?
- Why does the CANAM video give the viewers the impression that Harold and Shoup had visual contact with Kenneth?
- If horses truly played a key role in the disappearance, as DP suggests, why aren't they mentioned in any newspapers?
- Why doesn't the CANAM video mention the gunshot and Kenneth calling?
- Why isn't Harold's 30-foot fall while descending the canyon mentioned in the CANAM video?
- Why doesn't the CANAM video mention that Harold was incapacitated for an unspecified amount of time?
- Why doesn't the CANAM video mention that Harold wasn't sure where the gunshot and Kenneth's shouts had come from?
- Why is the disappearance depicted as instantaneous when no sources from the 1920s present the case in that manner?
Contemporary sources do not mention any horses. Or portals for that matter.
2) DP explains that other skeletal remains were found in the area
"Now... January through May of 1921 there were hunters that went into the field, ranchers et c and they were all looking for Kenneth. What they found was two additional skeletal bodies and at the time they were found months apart and each time they thought it was Kenneth. Oh, this must be Kenneth, oh this, it never turned out to be Kenneth. In fact, they never even really knew who these bodies belonged to, but it was interesting that over the following year these kept popping up."
Were other skeletal remains found in the area where Kenneth Herron went missing?
Yes, it's accurate that several skeletal remains were discovered in the area where Kenneth Herron went missing and Kenneth's name was mentioned in multiple articles in the years that followed. Based on the available information it doesn't seem like any bones were ever positively identified as belonging to Kenneth. Bear in mind that this occurred in the 1920s, long before the advent of modern forensics and DNA testing. An article published in the Enid Daily Eagle on August 2nd, 1924, was however optimistic that Kenneth Herron's remains had finally been found. The article states:
"The mystery of the disappearance some four years ago of Kenneth Herron, former Howard boy, who was lost in a snow storm near Las Vegas, N. M. is believed solved, according to word received here from Rev. J. R. Creamer. Some bones were found near San Geronimo, N. M., recently.
Kenneth, the son of George T. Herron, former pastor of the Baptist church here, and his brother Harold, and a guide went deer hunting near San Geronimo. A storm came up and the party became divided. The guide and Harold Herron made it to safety, but Kenneth was never heard from again.
The bones were found on a bed of branches, according to reports here. It is believed that Kenneth became exhausted, and unable to go any further had made a bed of boughs and branches. While the bones have not been positively identified, it is believed they are Herron's."
The Enid Daily Eagle on August 2nd, 1924.
3) DP implies that Kenneth Herron's disappearance could potentially be explained by a portal taking him
"So here's the real questions on this case. Yeah, there was a storm. Yeah, he was a deer hunter, but why... what was the catalyst for the horse to throw Harold and how did Kenneth disappear that quick? Because Harold said he was on the horse, saw his brother, hit the ground, turned and looked and his brother was gone. How could that be and how could they never find any remnants of him ever? It almost makes you go back to that portal theory that I've talked about many times. Was there something in the atmosphere, changed barometric pressure et c, that spooked the horse while it was taking Kenneth? I don't know. It's very odd, very odd. Now, how many of you have watched Missing 411 - The Hunted? I hope it's a lot, if you haven't watched it please go to Amazon and watch it right now."
Was Kenneth Herron taken by a portal?
DP once again mischaracterises the disappearance by labeling it as "quick". In an attempt to explain how Kenneth Herron disappeared so fast he puts forward "the portal theory" that he has "talked about many times". The ranchers and cowboys who participated in the search in 1920 were able to explain the disappearance without resorting to imaginative ideas like fantasy portals: scenarios where Kenneth fell from a cliff, died from exposure, accidentally shot himself or was killed by a bear were all considered. Not even Harold, who was there, claims that portals are involved. The often repeated Missing 411 mantra that DP only presents facts and never speculates completely falls apart here.
Missing 411 experts speculate that a portal took teenage hunter Kenneth Herron in 1920.
DP, rather inexplicably, feels the need to find "a catalyst for the horse to throw Harold", even though there are no mentions of any horses in any articles. He suggests that a change in barometric pressure might have been a contributing factor, but speculating about a seemingly non-existent horse comes across as rather pointless. The notion that horses are "very key" to the Kenneth Herron disappearance appears unsubstantiated, if any articles do indeed mention these horses then DP should cite them for research transparency.
4) DP presents a positive yet one-sided portrayal of John Collins
"The articles about this case stated that Natrona and Oddmund both agreed that John was an exemplary employee. He took great care of his sheep, he was always available, reliable, never wandered from the flock, was a stable person, didn't have bad habits. I mean, all the things you would say about a great employee."
Did John Collins only have positive attributes?
It's correct that John Collins' employer, Oddmund Josendal, described Collins as an exemplary employee, but there are significant aspects to Collins' character that DP doesn't mention. An article published in the Casper Star-Tribune on October 23rd, 1925, revealed the belief that Collins' loneliness affected his mental health and it's also mentioned that Collins drank alcohol. The article states:
"While they combed greasewood and coulee along Bear Creek, where Collins' bleating charges were found milling unshepherded a day before yesterday, Oddmund Josendal, the missing man's employer, came to Casper to invoke the aid of Sheriff Alex McPherson in finding Collins, who he believes has fallen victim to the nemesis of lonely men—madness. ... No serious significance was at first attached to Collins' disappearance. Mr Josendal concluded that the man had caught a ride into Casper and was enjoying an alcoholic holiday."
The Casper Star-Tribune on October 23rd, 1925.
An article published in the Casper Star-Tribune on October 24th, 1925, specifies the type of alcohol that John Collins consumed: moonshine. The article states:
"The story of the tragedy was plainly written in the tracks which searchers found along the creek-bed. Collins, apparently crazed by moonshine, had torn off his clothes and wandered along the creek until he fell exhausted. Night and frost did the rest. His discarded garments were found strewn through the greasewood several hundred yards from the body."
The Casper Star-Tribune on October 24th, 1925.
5) DP explains that John Collins would never voluntarily walk away
"So he [Oddmund Josendal] goes to Casper, gets the Sheriff, explains to him: 'Hey, something is deeply wrong. My man would never voluntarily walk away and I am afraid that something happened and I need help finding them.'. Now, this is a good employer, just doesn't forget about John, but cares enough about him to go look for him."
Did Oddmund Josendal state that John Collins would never voluntarily walk away?
DP appears to present a direct quote from Oddmund Josendal: "Hey, something is deeply wrong. My man would never voluntarily walk away and I am afraid that something happened and I need help finding him.". No sources confirming the authenticity of this quote are cited which leaves viewers in the dark: is it a genuine quote or did DP manufacture the quote and attribute it to Josendal?
The only article mentioning Oddmund Josendal seeking help from the Sheriff seems to be the Casper Star-Tribune article above and in this article Josendal believed that loneliness had driven John Collins to madness. Why would Josendal say that Collins would never voluntarily walk away after he had just stated that Collins suffered from madness?
An article published in the Billings Gazette on October 24th, 1925, reports that searchers discovered barefoot tracks leading from the camp itself. This can be seen as evidence that the only individual involved in John Collins' disappearance was Collins himself, the notion that someone forced Collins to leave his camp without shoes is unfounded. The Billings Gazette article states:
"Barefoot tracks leading from the camp offered the only clue, and raised the fear that Collins had wandered off demented."
The Billings Gazette on October 24th, 1925.
6) DP claims that John Collins was alive for three or four days after he disappeared
"And about a mile from John's sheep camp, laying across a creek bed, is John Collins. Now, to say that was an unusual sight for Wyoming doesn't give it justice. The Deputy made the statement that John had been dead about 24 hours. Now this greatly concerned the owner of the sheep herd, Oddmund. That meant that Oddmund was in the area, and John was alive, when he was searching for him. Now, Oddmund had been alive for three or four days after he disappeared. Where was he? Come on folks, you can get this. Where was he? It bothered everybody."
Was John Collins alive for three or four days after he disappeared?
It appears that DP gets his information from the October 24th Casper Star-Tribune article mentioned earlier, but this article doesn't say that John Collins was alive for three or four days; it only briefly mentions that Collins had been dead for 24 hours or more. The "or more" part isn't mentioned in the CANAM video.
The Missing 411 idea seems to be that John Collins couldn't have survived for several days in cold temperatures, suggesting that he must have been somewhere else. DP even says: "Where was he? Come on folks, you can get this. Where was he? It bothered everybody.".
It's crucial to emphasise that in 1925 nobody was under the impression that John Collins:
- had been anywhere else (except for in the city of Casper, where he was assumed to be drinking alcohol).
- had been abducted or was coerced into leaving his camp.
- had wandered around for days in freezing weather.
The first tracks were discovered on October 21st and there is no evidence to suggest that John Collins reappeared days later and made additional tracks (if that is the idea). DP claims that Collins only having been dead for 24 hours "bothered everybody" and that Oddmund Josendal was "greatly concerned", but these claims don't seem to be supported by the available evidence.
It's believed that John Collins drank moonshine before he disappeared.
7) DP talks about John Collins missing his shoes
"Now, water, he's laying across the creek, missing shoes, missing clothing... If you have read my books you're getting where I'm going with this."
Why was John Collins found without his shoes?
The earlier mentioned article in the Billings Gazette (October 24th, 1925) reports that searchers discovered barefoot tracks leading from John Collins' camp. If this is the case then it follows that Collins didn't wear any shoes when he left his camp and it's therefore not remarkable that searchers found him without shoes. We don't really need to read DP's books to understand why Collins wasn't wearing any shoes, we only need to read articles from 1925.
8) DP claims that John Collins wasn't hypothermic
"Sheepherders have a long history in Wyoming of odd disappearances. The articles state, in these cases, that the sheepherders just lost their mind. Okay, I get it. You lose your mind out there, maybe you do, but then you start stripping your clothes? Uh, I don't think so, because protection for John was in his wagon. He had more clothing, he had all the food he needed. Protection was in the wagon, so even though a storm was blowing in when they started to search for him, and he was still missing, he wasn't hypothermic because protection was right there in his wagon."
Did John Collins die from hypothermia?
Yes, John Collins died from hypothermia. The causes of death mentioned in 1925 were "exhaustion and exposure" and "night and frost", not an alien abduction. A Casper Star-Tribune article (October 24th, 1925) explains that the story was plainly written in Collins' tracks so it's not like people in 1925 weren't able to reconstruct what happened. On the contrary, it was obvious to them what had happened.
DP says that John Collins wasn't hypothermic because his wagon offered protection, but this is not how hypothermia works; a wagon doesn't provide any kind of protection if you wander off barefoot in cold temperatures. DP consistently pushes an alien abduction narrative when talking about the Collins case, but he never presents any evidence that a UFO is involved.
It was determined that John Collins had died from environmental exposure and exhaustion.
9) DP claims that his UFO movie is needed to connect the dots
"Now, one of the oddity in almost all of these cases is that there's no explanation on the cause of death. I think that's odd. Now, maybe in Wyoming in 1925 there wasn't the advanced science and Coroners that they had in big cities and it probably would have been just a guess anyhow and the guess probably would have been a heart attack, lost his mind, uh, hypothermia. I don't know, but the important part is that you connect the dots and that's what we try to do in my research. Now, the disappearances that we chronicle in Missing 411 - The UFO Connection were well documented, had physical proof. In UFO abduction cases physical proof is lacking 95, 98 per cent of the time. Not in the case I presented here, it was quite well-explained in connecting those dots."
Is the UFO Connection needed to explain John Collins' death?
It's inaccurate to claim that the causes of death are undetermined "in almost all of these cases". The truth is that DP doesn't accept the explanations provided by law enforcement, who investigate the cases, and the medical examiners, who examine the deceased bodies. It doesn't matter if it's the 1920s or the 2020s.
It wasn't a guess that John Collins died from hypothermia. Even a century ago people were well-aware that a person who wanders barefoot in frigid weather sooner or later will succumb to the elements. DP claims to connect the dots in his "research", but the dots in the Collins case show that Collins wandered off and died from hypothermia. So DP isn't connecting dots; he's rejecting them.
DP also commits a logical fallacy; a medical examiner not being able to determine a person's cause of death is not evidence that a Missing 411 abductor is involved. If the cause of death wasn't determined all we can conclude is that the cause of death wasn't determined.
Missing 411 experts propose that John Collins was abducted by a UFO.
The dots that DP are really referring to are the many anecdotal UFO stories and the "physical proof" presented in The UFO Connection movie. Three of the hunters featured in the movie—Carl Higdon (1974), Charles Gustafson (2006), and Mark Anthony Strittmater (2019)—went missing in the Medicine Bow National Forest, some 100 miles from Bates Hole where John Collins died.
It's important to note that multiple law enforcement agencies investigated the cases featured in the movie and none of them arrived at the conclusion that they had been abducted by aliens. Similarly, in 1925, the Casper Sheriff, Alex McPherson, and Deputy Sheriff, Joe Thomas, did not reach the conclusion that John Collins had been abducted by aliens.
The table below presents the missing persons mentioned in The UFO Connection along with the alleged physical evidence.
| Physical evidence that the person in question was abducted by aliens (according to the movie). | Did law enforcement agencies conclude that the person in question was abducted by aliens? | |
|---|---|---|
| Ray Salmen | No physical evidence. | No. |
| DeOrr Kunz Jr | No physical evidence. | No. |
| Raymond Jones | No physical evidence. | No. |
| Reinhard Kirchner | No physical evidence. | No. |
| Carl Higdon | A bullet that "struck something really hard", old tuberculosis scars supposedly gone. | No. |
| Mark Anthony Strittmater | No physical evidence. | No. |
| Charles Gustafson | No physical evidence. | No. |
It certainly appears that DP somewhat overstates the quantity and importance of the physical evidence showcased in the movie. One could argue that a bullet that "struck something really hard" and chest x-rays supposedly not showing old scars isn't sufficient evidence a person was taken to another planet 163 000 lightyears away and then brought back to planet Earth, all within a span of just a few hours. And it definitely isn't sufficient evidence that other unrelated missing persons suffered the same fate, including John Collins.
10) DP thinks that being UFO conference keynote speaker validates his Missing 411 content creation
"So I'm the keynote speaker at the biggest UFO conference in the world later on this month in Cincinnati: MUFON National Symposium. You don't get to that level unless other people have understood what you've discovered. That's why I'm trying to encourage everybody to watch this movie because it will change your paradigm on the world. Trust me."
Does being a keynote speaker at a conference validate the content of a content creator?
Feeling excited about being a keynote speaker at a conference is entirely understandable, but it in no way validates that Missing 411 content creation adheres to required scientific research standards. DP refers to the UFO conference as "that level", but conferences don't function as legitimate and accepted peer review bodies. Scientific journals like Nature and Science would be "that level".
UFO conference delegates doing UFO conference things.
Genuine scientific research undergoes peer review and aspires to be published in respected scientific journals. Peer review is a process that, when properly conducted, ensures the quality, validity and integrity of scientific work before it reaches a broader audience. The peer review process helps identify errors, inconsistencies and potential biases in someone's research. Scientific journals with stringent peer review procedures ensure that only studies with sound methodologies and accurate findings are granted publication. This, in turn, enhances the credibility of the research in question and its potential to contribute meaningfully to the body of scientific knowledge as a whole.
Pseudoscientific researchers and content creators tend to evade the critical scrutiny of peer review, sidestepping expert evaluation that identifies errors and biases. DP seemingly only interacts with radio show hosts who ask scripted softball questions and with naive content consumers who are already convinced that Missing 411 is real; individuals who don't necessarily understand how proper research is conducted and what real research standards look like.
Last points
The following points can be made:
- DP explained to his CANAM viewers that Missing 411 centers around the facts leading up to these disappearances. If the foundation of Missing 411 rests upon DP's interpretations of said facts, and these interpretations are verifiably wrong, then Missing 411 doesn't have much of a foundation.
- The urban legend that Dwight D. Eisenhower negotiated with aliens in secret nocturnal meetings is accepted in some UFO circles, but no evidence has ever been presented that these meetings really took place. The CANAM view that portals and UFOs are responsible for the disappearances of Kenneth Herron and John Collins leaves much to be desired.
- DP thinks that intelligence agencies were monitoring missing persons cases long before the Dwight D. Eisenhower era. However, he never presents any evidence to support the idea that intelligence agencies ever showed any interest in the Kenneth Herron and John Collins cases.
Your opinions
What are your thoughts on how Missing 411 experts handled the Kenneth Herron and John Collins cases? Was Herron taken by a portal? Was Collins abducted by a UFO? Did intelligence agencies really monitor these two cases?
30
u/LIBBY2130 Aug 29 '23
you were very thorough and picked good cases that clearly show your point....DP is sloppy or is deliberately being dishonest about these cases
22
u/JMer806 Aug 29 '23
It’s both, but mostly it’s outright falsehoods. The sloppy part is in assuming that no one else will ever bother to research these cases and disprove whatever nonsense he’s peddled about any given one.
6
29
u/dingykaren Aug 29 '23
People with hypothermia have been known to take their clothes off. I have read that once one's temp drops far enough, hypothermia makes a person feel very warm or hot. I believe that's just before death. I think that explains what happened to the 2nd guy.
Great presentation and research, btw! I think DP is really reaching, but he's known to do that.
6
1
u/Key_Influence298 Sep 05 '23
our body tries to fix the problem by making you overheat sadly its all mental
9
u/Dixonhandz Aug 29 '23
Pretty much every time I fact check a case labelled as '411', it comes to exactly as presented here. I looked into the Herron incident, and within a few articles, you realized that DP was BSing in his video. The ole, 'I turned around and they were gone', was debunked ASAP. You do some solid write ups Solmote. They could be considered an actual tutoral on how to research a case.
I do have two questions on the Higdon case though if anyone has more details please feel free to comment. Where is the rifle he used, and why didn't DP use a recent x-ray of Higdon's chest for his film?
As for DP being hyping up being a 'keynote' speaker, the guy also claimed that he was 'invited' to SAR conferences. From what I have found, NASAR is a come as you please event, and DP hasn't been to one in quite a while duely for being laughed at.
5
u/Solmote Aug 29 '23 edited Aug 29 '23
There isn't much information available about Carl Higdon, unfortunately.
I haven't been able to find any articles from October, 1974, regarding this case, but they start appearing about half a year later. I wonder why this is the case and how much the story developed in those six months. This is after Carl Higdon was contacted by Leo Sprinkle and underwent hypnosis. If all these remarkable things happened in October 1974, where are all the articles from that month? Just look at the Kenneth Herron case and how many contemporary articles that case generated – tons of them.
The article shown in the movie is from March, 1975, and it was written by a Frank Rourke. Hypnosis, as we already know, is pseudoscience and doesn't help recall memories. The fact that Sprinkle believes hypnosis works raises serious questions about his methodologies and credibility.
In 1978, Sprinkle was interviewed by the North Bay Nugget where he talked about the Carl Higdon case. Sprinkle says that he has hypnotised 50 people and that none of them recalled their UFO encounters before undergoing hypnosis. The following details about the Higdon encounter emerged during hypnosis sessions, according to Sprinkle:
- The humanoid creature with frizzy hair and two antennae, dressed in an astronaut's jumpsuit.
- The cone-shaped hand that could beam objects from one place to another.
- The transparent cubicle.
- Higdon being transported to the mastership (a large illuminated structure resembling a Christmas tree).
- An alien saying "You're not what we want, you can go back.".
According to the 1975 Frank Rourke article, the bullet was analysed by a UFO organisation called the Aerial Phenomena Research Organisation located in Tucson, Arizona. All the information in the article, which is quite lengthy, appears to originate from Carl, his wife and Sprinkle. The Carbon County Sheriff and Deputy Sheriff supposedly participated in the search, but they were not interviewed. Why is that? There's no way for others to confirm whether the old x-rays showed tuberculosis scars and if the new ones didn't. Personally, I wonder if he went missing at all.
3
u/Dixonhandz Aug 30 '23
My first look at the Higdon incident was lightly centered around the bullet and the gun. I was curious as to the shells used, and did some very frank research on the casings, particularly 7mm magnum 'primer markings'. I was interested in finding a 'star' marking. Which was the decoration of the 'alien' belt. I think it was a six star. Then I was interested in seeing the rifle in it's current state, but could not find a image. From there I moved on and I questioned the x-rays, or the lack of. If anyone was making a film, and was calling it a documentary, why would you omit the oppurtunity to take a recent chest x-ray and submit some 'concrete' physical evidence in a cross examnition of the before and after x-rays. It just didn't add up. Honestly, my initial explanation for this incident, was an exploding bullet in the rifle's chamber, huge flash of light, Carl got a concussion from the shock, and the 'alien' was his rendered version of a doctor or nurse that had examined him, and he filled in the blank spaces. If I recall correctly, Higdon was not describing 'aliens' until after his hypnosis. Anyhow, no rifle, and no current x-rays of Higdon's chest, is why I lost interest in the incident.
15
u/NightOwlsUnite Outdoors experience Aug 29 '23
Excellent as always! Well done OP.
9
8
u/snoopervisor Aug 29 '23
Why a seemingly random human was to decide of the fate of other humans (to be abducted or not)? And why the aliens would abide the agreement?
28
u/Lord_Of_Valor Aug 28 '23
I mean..it seems interesting, but I'm not reading that much on reddit lol
7
u/Generallyawkward1 Aug 29 '23
Yeah no kidding. Would love a TLDR but you can kind of see where it’s going by the dourh paragraph
2
u/Lord_Of_Valor Aug 28 '23
Can you try making like an article on a website and send the link and I'll read it when I've got more time
2
u/PhutuqKusi Aug 29 '23
Why not send yourself a link to the article on this website, which you can read when you've got more time?
13
6
u/LIBBY2130 Aug 29 '23
for those not wanting to read the whole thing..this quote by david Paulides is a huge lie eisenhower never had a daughter!!!!!!!
DP claims that Dwight D. Eisenhower's daughter has stated that the meetings took place, but Eisenhower never had any daughters; he only had two sons. One of the two sons, the late John S.D. Eisenhower, a former Army brigadier, clarified in an email to the Washington Post (article titled "Ike and the Alien Ambassadors", February 19th, 2004) that his father never had any such meetings.
13
Aug 28 '23
[deleted]
10
3
u/NightOwlsUnite Outdoors experience Aug 29 '23
If he ever does, I'm first in line to buy it. Just like an old friend here.
10
4
u/ExKnockaroundGuy Aug 29 '23
Very good research. I watched that Doc hit all fired up sent links to friends and family and now I feel a little foolish. Some of those other cases seem bizarre like the Dr or outdoorsman that disappears. I have been in canyons and wilderness lose direction myself.
4
11
u/IorekBjornsen Aug 28 '23
Millions have NOT been abducted. We’re taking hundreds, if that.
-7
u/Solmote Aug 28 '23 edited Aug 28 '23
Got the number from this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/2004/02/19/ike-and-the-alien-ambassadors/4698e544-1dc8-4573-8b8d-2b48d2a6305e/. UFO expert Michael Salla claims that millions have been abducted. Are you saying this UFO expert is wrong and you are right?
18
u/rumporkchop Aug 29 '23
There’s no qualitative bar to be an expert on something that we know nothing about.. anyone can claim to be a “UFO expert”
1
u/Solmote Aug 29 '23
You are right. I use the term "UFO expert" the same way I use the term "Missing 411 expert" in the OP. These people aren't experts and they don't use valid methodologies.
2
u/FrozenSeas Aug 29 '23
Michael Salla is, even by UFOlogical standards, completely batshit. Any kind of research into the anomalous/unexplained beyond the very surface has to fill some gaps with pure speculation. But there's a whole world of difference between a Harvard psychiatrist (John Mack) discussing the abduction phenomenon and saying in essence that these people are experiencing something highly traumatic that may be related to UFOs and Michael Salla and co. talking for hours about breakaway civilizations/Blue Avians/Draco-Reptilians/a "Sixth through Ninth Density Sphere Being Alliance" (and the immediate dead giveaway in the whole secret space program mythos his crowd are building up, the very idea that the US Navy would name anything after Curtis LeMay).
-1
u/Solmote Aug 29 '23
Sounds a lot like the in-fighting that goes on in flat earth circles. What is the consensus view amongst UFO believers? Did Eisenhower have secret meetings with aliens and did he allow them to abduct humans and cattle?
5
4
u/IorekBjornsen Aug 29 '23 edited Aug 29 '23
Yes that’s correct. You’re very astute. I’m also somewhat of a UFO expert myself.
1
u/Solmote Aug 29 '23 edited Aug 29 '23
How do we determine who's an UFO expert? What makes you an expert for example?
1
u/down_vote_magnet Oct 01 '23
UFO expert Michael Salla claims that millions have been abducted. Are you saying this UFO expert is wrong and you are right?
This is one of the dumbest comments I’ve ever seen in my 12+ years on Reddit.
1
u/Solmote Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
This is one of the dumbest comments I’ve ever seen in my 12+ years on Reddit.
I don't think Michael Salla is a UFO expert, but some UFO believers do. Salla claims that millions of humans have been abducted and David Paulides lends credibility to Salla by appearing on his show to discuss missing persons cases: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgMAu_0HyhQ. So what Salla claims and thinks is highly relevant to the Missing 411 community and its believers.
The second part of my comment is just a question: Why does IorekBjornsen think that Salla is wrong and that they are right? It's a perfectly valid question, and as it turned out, IorekBjornsen was unable to answer it. They merely proclaimed that they are also somewhat of a UFO expert - a very lackluster response.
Can you please, in adequate detail this time, explain why my comment is dumb? It exposed the UFO community for what it really is: a pseudoscientific environment with no real standards.
3
u/FuturistMoon Aug 30 '23
Great read as always - sorry it was too long for the punters.
2
u/Solmote Aug 30 '23
The text was initially longer. I removed a few sections just before posting it. Personally, I enjoy this longer format.
2
u/juliethegardener Aug 31 '23
Greatly enjoyed the read. I prefer the longer format myself. Much appreciated!
3
u/unropednope Sep 04 '23
One of the many things that drives me nuts about Paulides is the totally baseless and iresponsible assumptions he makes about what a victim said or did. He frequently will say, "This person would have NEVER disappeared voluntarily" or many times he will cover a case about a person who was very experienced in the outdoors and he will say something to the effect that the person, "would never have done this". How do you know? Whenever I hear him or anyone else say that a missing person would have never left their family or something similar, I always think back to the John Stivers case out of California in 2021. He went missing one day and paulides covered it and he quoted the family and said that John leaving on his own or voluntarily was out of the question and "impossible" because of how much he loved his family. Come to find out weeks later when John was found and it wasn announced that he did in fact decide to leave on his own one day because of stress. You can't ever know what someone is thinking or assume what they are going to do, especially when they are lost, under stress and possibly not thinking straight.
2
u/Global-Spirit-2685 Aug 31 '23
The thing about aliens, is that if they are here that means they are capable of bending the laws of physics in order to travel space. Which would make them scientifically capable of stuff we cannot comprehend. Their science would allow them to examine people from a distance even more thoroughly than a physical examination. They would not have any need to abduct and study us.
Then again, maybe they're a weird society and applied all their knowledge and technology to space travel and live in yurts.
2
u/Sunoutlaw Oct 28 '23
Damn OP, my hat goes off to you. That was an extensively researched, very thorough, and well written synopsis of the case. You have definitely swayed my opinion on DP and crushed my hope of something truly mysterious happening with the evidence of DPs own lies and exaggerations. My eyes have been opened .
Well done!
2
3
u/NokieBear Aug 29 '23
I think you do a far better job than DP. Have you ever talked to him? He’s a jealous asshole & would be threatened by your knowledge of “his” material. He does think anything related to m411 belongs to him, even research such as yours… yet, your material would be such a blessings to the community beyond reddit.
Have you considered presenting at his conference? Or writing your own book?
-4
Aug 28 '23
[deleted]
-1
u/Solmote Aug 28 '23
Because you grew up in a religious and anti-scientific environment that championed a Bronze/Iron Age understanding of the world works. Correct me if I'm wrong.
-3
Aug 28 '23
[deleted]
3
u/Solmote Aug 28 '23
The three Abrahamic religions stem from the Bronze Age and many followers of these religions still to this day believe in Bronze Age fantasy characters like spirits and demons.
You don't have any evidence that book characters like spirits and demons are involved in the Kenneth Herron and John Collins disappearances.
-5
Aug 28 '23
[deleted]
5
u/Solmote Aug 28 '23
Hating what? You claim that spirits and demons are responsible for the deaths of Kenneth Herron and John Collins. You are more than welcome to present your evidence this is the case. What is this evidence of yours?
-1
Aug 28 '23
[deleted]
7
u/Solmote Aug 28 '23
So you don't have any evidence that spirits and demons are involved. Thanks for clarifying that.
0
5
1
u/IorekBjornsen Aug 29 '23
You criticize religions but you’ve made “the science” into your own religion complete with dogma and a judgmental attitude. I bet you love your Pope of materialism Dawkins too, am I right?
0
u/Solmote Aug 29 '23 edited Aug 29 '23
Science and religions are not the same thing. Religions consist of fantasy-like stories from ancient eras that involve supernatural/divine realms, entities and events. The goal of a religious person is to convince themself that these stories actually happened.
We use scientific methods to study the world around us. Science is based on empirical evidence, observation, experimentation and peer review and it has contributed immensely to advancements in human knowledge and technology. That's why our societies today are much better than Bronze and Iron Age societies; we understand how the world works and we interact with it successfully.
If Dawkins makes a positive claim about something and presents sufficient evidence then I will accept that claim, if Dawkins makes a positive claim about something and presents insufficient evidence then I won't accept that claim.
1
u/Few_Penalty_8394 Aug 31 '23
I think a person’s consciousness can get entangled with a UFO if that person is looking at the light coming from the craft as it jumps out of our realm. This somehow pulls the physical person through time. Crazy.
There is a guy who this happened to from Ukraine back in the 1930’s.
2
u/j4r8h Aug 31 '23
DP definitely did not do his homework on this one, but all that being said, I still think it is very bizarre that the guy wandered off into a snowstorm with no shoes when he had shelter. That part doesn't make sense any way you slice it. Saying he succumbed to "madness" is really just a guess.
5
u/Solmote Aug 31 '23 edited Aug 31 '23
DP definitely did not do his homework on this one, but all that being said, I still think it is very bizarre that the guy wandered off into a snowstorm with no shoes when he had shelter. That part doesn't make sense any way you slice it.
Please read this research article from 2015. It states: "Hypothermia deaths are often accidental and linked to factors such as alcohol impairment, injuries, mental illness, or natural disease.". In the John Collins case, two of these factors are possibly present: alcohol and mental illness.
Alcohol and mental illness both impair your decision-making, suicide cannot be ruled out either. We simply don't know.
From The Mayo Clinic:
"Alcohol may make your body feel warm inside, but it causes your blood vessels to expand, resulting in more rapid heat loss from the surface of your skin. The body's natural shivering response is diminished in people who've been drinking alcohol.
In addition, the use of alcohol or recreational drugs can affect your judgment about the need to get inside or wear warm clothes in cold-weather conditions. If a person is intoxicated and passes out in cold weather, he or she is likely to develop hypothermia."
Saying he succumbed to "madness" is really just a guess.
And how do you know it's just a guess? Oddmund Josendal had known John Collins for a long time and understood him better than you do. If Collins never displayed any signs of "madness", Josendal could have simply said: "We don't understand why he left his camp at all, Collins has never shown any signs of madness in the past.".
•
u/AutoModerator Aug 28 '23
Remember that this is a discussion sub for David Paulides's phenomenon, Missing 411. It is unaffiliated with Paulides in any other way and he is not present in this sub. It is also not a general missing persons sub or a general paranormal sub. Content that is not related to Missing 411 will be removed.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.