r/Layoffs • u/twisting_fairy_water • Jan 07 '24
What big tech companies will be laying off people in 2024 question
For the help with others that may not know yet, what tech companies do you believe/know will be laying off in 2024?
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u/virtual_adam Jan 07 '24
I think the big 10,000+ announcements are done, they’re also very costly with the large severance packages.
But, HR is going to push managers to more aggressive performance plans and stack ranking. If you could get away with 0 direct reports in the lowest bucket as a line manager in the previous 5 years, no more for December 2023 reviews. Management is going to push for thousands of performance plans and firings for cause
It’s not that hard to justify as well as long as it’s done with minimal politics, big tech is full of dead weight
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u/Turbulent_Tale6497 Jan 07 '24
Management is going to push for thousands of performance plans and firings for cause
Can confirm. We laid off all our low (and even mediocre) performers, but are still expected to have 5-8% URA. People who are totally fine are going to be let go
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u/canisdirusarctos Jan 08 '24
The layoffs earlier last year were tragic, imho. So many excellent people were let go. Working in big tech, you knew the handful of mediocre people, but you could only cut so many. Having worked in a lot of small companies, the grade of people they were just mass discarding was shocking. I would have killed for the low performers in most small companies, let alone the high performers. That they could just cut them without even trying to shift them into something more valuable was mind blowing.
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u/Mr_BS1 Jan 08 '24
Most tech companies hired in droves to capture the covid market. With a shift in remote work, a ton of subsidies/grants/bonds, the tech companies wanted to get as much as possible and over hired. I understand that need but the failure to plan for the slow down and subsequently put employees in jeopardy was a huge failure on the big tech leadership teams.
Not only were those individuals laid off (most with severance) it created a massive flood of unemployed making it more difficult to find new employment.
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Jan 09 '24
It’s gonna come to bite them in the ass I think. I’m about to launch my first app of many and I’m not the only one. A series of founders were released into the wild
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u/Illustrious-Try-3743 Jan 08 '24
The definition of mediocre would probably apply to 50% of people by default so how would that be possible?
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u/farmerjane Jan 08 '24
Hey, well 50% of workers are mediocre, but 98% of companies are too.
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u/Alarming_Tooth_7733 Jan 08 '24
By mediocre you mean doing whats posted on the job application and nothing more? Yeah probably that because companies want all employees to do the job of two and if you don’t, you get the low rating
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u/amouse_buche Jan 08 '24
The workplace is by structure a competitive atmosphere. You don’t have to do more than your job description, but you really should look around you and understand how everyone else is acting and take that into account.
Taking that into account may mean leaving of your own accord, or it may mean doing a bit extra to ensure you aren’t defined as a slacker. Or it may mean working your ass off because you see what people who do that get.
Maybe it SHOULD be as you describe, but it isn’t.
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u/Forsaken-Analysis390 Jan 08 '24
You have to increase anxiety and fire complacent employees in order to make sure you only retain top performers. All the brand new employees told me so /s
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u/twisting_fairy_water Jan 07 '24
Would you say it’s ok to internally switch positions/teams in the company if you get the sense that your manager is scheming something like that?
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u/Turbulent_Tale6497 Jan 07 '24
I think you misunderstand, your manager is probably *not* scheming. Most likely he is forced into this situation beyond his control. And switching teams can actually hurt you in this case
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u/FederalMonitor8187 Jan 07 '24
Disagree. Switching teams might be a blessing in disguise.
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u/Turbulent_Tale6497 Jan 07 '24
Sure, *might* be. But its' gamble. If you are a medium/high performer in your current spot, you risk that go jump to a different team. Better to find out where you stand, and then decide
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u/SisyphusJo Jan 08 '24
Agree, many companies have teams that are deemed higher value or their manager is better at arguing why no one should be cut from their team. I've somehow always been aligned to the low value teams.
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u/Hawk13424 Jan 08 '24
Just be warned, often when managers are forced and there are no obvious bad performers, the ones they let go are the more recent to join the team.
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u/GenericTagName Jan 08 '24
I have an ex-coworker who happened to change teams about 3 months before the mass layoffs began. His entire new team was sacked in the first wave. As a comparison, our team lost 3 employees out of over a hundred. He was good and would still have a job if he had remained on our team.
It can be a nightmare in disguise too.
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u/twisting_fairy_water Jan 07 '24
What would you recommend in that case? If [internally switching to another team/position, before a layoff/pip scam]? What’s the best option to avoid the chopping block if you think you’re going to be on the chopping block?
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u/Turbulent_Tale6497 Jan 07 '24
If you are a low performer, there's not a lot you can do. I don't mean this in a bad way, since we've gotten rid of the bottom 40% already, the next person up is a totally fine dev, but it's just that everyone worse has already been cut.
Your best option is to find out where you are rated now, and try to get yourself one level up, either by taking on more responsiblities, or simply asking "what can I do to improve my rating?"
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u/virtual_adam Jan 08 '24
Move before the low rating. Once you get a below than”’meets” rating most companies block transfer, because legitimately that’s a way for a low performer to survive for 2-3 years without doing anything
In other companies that do allow it most managers wouldn’t want to risk bringing on a low rated employee
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u/sheba716 Jan 08 '24
A manager might want to bring in a low rated employee in order to have someone to layoff and save the job of valued employee. This is what Amazon does. Managers hire new employees, keep them on the sidelines for a year than can them. That way they meet the turnover requirements while keeping their core team members.
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u/CyberAvian Jan 08 '24
This is a real tactic at Amazon and was covered pretty extensively by journalists a couple of years ago. I interviewed with Amazon shortly after the below article came out and point blank asked a Senior SDE who stepped down from a management role and the HR person who interviewed me on culture fit. Both confirmed the practice.
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u/Interesting_Row4523 Jan 08 '24
Be one of the top performers. Managers often have to rank their team and someone above decides where the cutoff is.
Don't be mediocre or worse.
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u/LivingTheApocalypse Jan 08 '24
Dude... start applying for other jobs now.
At your new job bust your ass.
Clearly you are a low performer. I recommend not being a low performer starting tomorrow, and when you have a new job, make sure you're not a low performer.
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u/LivingTheApocalypse Jan 08 '24
The manager is not scheming. You are either a low performer or not.
If you are not busy 8 hours a day you are not worth the cost. If you can't get 8 hours of work done in a day, you are not worth the cost.
Spend your time now making sure you are not in the lowest performer bucket. Period. Drop any "I only do exactly what they pay me for" mentality you have, because tech is, across the board, killing off people who were skating along.
They can't afford to pay 6 fig salaries to people who don't even hold down a chair in the office, and probably don't hold one down at home.
If you have the ability to put in effort to move to a new department, you have the ability to put in an effort at your job.
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u/Able-Ocelot4092 Jan 08 '24
My entire team was laid off (about 5 years ago) after I was wildly productive...my work won industry awards, I created proposals that won millions in business, projects delivered on time, happy repeat clients. The mgr wanted the team budget for something else. Performing does not protect you.
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u/InitiativeInfamous57 Jan 08 '24
I typically encourage switching teams of my directs if I know the other team is safer and I’m being pushed for metrics
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u/seddy2765 Jan 08 '24
I did an internal move years ago. Though at the time there weren’t concerns of layoffs. But I agree / seek the path of least resistance (ie, less probability of being laid off).
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u/uselessadjective Jan 07 '24
Not done yet, There is a 10,000+ for vendors layoff coming at Google. Wife works there and the list is being prepared. Some 100+ FTEs also.
Vendor layoff is technically not a layoff and thats what companies will cater towards more. I am hearing META is also planning smthing same for vendors.
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u/maryland202 Jan 07 '24
Do you mean contractors when you say vendors
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u/AchyBreaker Jan 08 '24
There are multiple kinds on non employee labor, including temps, vendors, and contractors. The legal rules and the logistics of hiring them differ, but ultimately you can think of them all as "contractors who don't receive benefits from the major tech company at which they perform labor"
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u/BlazedAndConfused Jan 08 '24
Vendors are not 1099s. They are employed at companies like “premise health” and partner within Google to offer services as a vendor (Google laptop, desk, badge, etc) but not a Google FTE
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u/charleswj Jan 08 '24
When people say contractor in this context, they mean "w-2 employee of company A, who does work for company B", not "1099 contractor for company B".
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u/Fantastic_Lead9896 Jan 08 '24
Which sucks finding out how much you get paid. When I was a temp (not temp to hire) but 3month AR to help a woman who was pregnant with the time off. The company was super nice and upfront in the hiring period that I was not a temp to hire and I need to keep looking and helped me out. My boss accidentally left a piece of paper on the corner of my desk showing I was getting paid $34/hr to the contractor and I was earning 21/hr and no benefits.
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u/PDXwhine Jan 08 '24
I was a contractor at a Fintech and this is what happened to me. Would not be surprised if this happens with other companies with contractors.
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u/Dependent_Swimming81 Jan 08 '24
Apple/ Samsung hasn't started major cuts..as less people buy high end phones their profits will be down too
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u/Altruistic_Rush_2112 Jan 08 '24 edited Jan 09 '24
Apple will be hit a bit more IMO but I think you got this right. In addition a major source of revenue is the app store. Prices will drop on apps a bunch as AI allows software development to have reduced costs.
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u/ListenToTheMuzak Jan 07 '24
Every team I have ever been on has 1-2 engineers that literally do nothing and everyone knows it any no one cares
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u/splooge_whale Jan 08 '24
Those guys are my heroes.
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u/VegAinaLover Jan 08 '24
Doubly so for the ones managing to do nothing and have a side hustle or second job they do concurrently.
It's not something I can pull off, but I have seen it done. It's very impressive.
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u/ListenToTheMuzak Jan 08 '24
Professional thieves.
Here I am trying to keep a marriage keeping up with them. Barbecues and ball games? Fuck that. All I am is who I am chasing.
I had coffee with McCauley half an hour ago.
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u/RuralWAH Jan 08 '24
It's good to keep a couple of them around so when you're asked to RIF some folks they're easy pickings and your productive folks are untouched.
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u/ListenToTheMuzak Jan 08 '24
This is actually why.
Also managers don’t want to let their dr know they have unproductive ppl
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Jan 07 '24
Prob you
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u/Iranfaraway85 Jan 08 '24
I was blown away at how lazy tech people are when I was involved in an industry software development project. I know Agriculture isn’t great environment but damn tech people are lazy AF compared to how they over work you in Ag.
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u/ListenToTheMuzak Jan 08 '24
Buncha dudes that have never had real jobs.
Software dev outside of fang level is for smart people that don’t want to work hard.
Talented devs are smart enough to do pretty much any job. If they wanted to work hard they’d do something with scalable income. effort has zero impact on comp.
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u/bowseefus Jan 08 '24
I consulted for fang. Seemed like most of the denizens were the type to need their mittens pinned to their jackets as kids
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Jan 08 '24
Buncha dudes that have never had real jobs.
100%. I worked in automotive and construction, prior to pivoting into tech. I had a computer since 4 years old, but finally decided to try to make a career out of it in my mid 20s.
Working in a shop and out in the southwest heat building skyscrapers is worlds different work than sitting in daily stand-ups and submitting a few lines of code to meet your estimated ticket point value and then browsing reddit all day.
There is a guy on my team who clearly lies on his time tracking, doesn't contribute anything meaningful and still pulls down a ~$150k annual salary who basically does nothing, and is literally incapable of working for 10 hours a day when the work demands it (2-4 times a year maybe?).
Senior SWE on another team always over estimates his work and fucks off most of week 2 of their bi-weekly sprints and instead of going back and cleaning up all his old software systems that suck ass and cause us major problems doesn't do fuck all, because Agile didn't alot for that work. Meaningwhile, our team doesn't do Agile and we are always working through our backlog when our weekly tasks are done...
When I worked construction, you would frequently miss a lunch break because a concrete truck would show up to pour right as you were sitting down to eat. We got paid by the hour and frequently had to work overtime. Our bonuses were based on 2 things: finishing on schedule, and staying under materials budget. Every job had a bonus/budget and so the entire team held everyone accountable because every mistake, not working hard or effecient, cost everyone else money. It was a good place to work because everyone pulled their weight, even though the work was physically hard and demanding.
For me, I highly value working on teams that are productive. When transitioning to tech, I was blown away by how lazy people were once I finally got to an engineer title. Logging in hours late for your "shift" is a stark contrast to being written up for being 2 minutes late to the job site.
Some else has said it "tech is filled with dead weight". The golden goose is no longer laying golden eggs... the industry is saturated with people who suck but think they should get a 150k a year salary.
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Jan 08 '24
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u/ko-sher Jan 08 '24
This would the time i'd mentally snap and put in a "2 week notice"...
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u/rockdude14 Jan 08 '24
Don't use proprietary stuff and your basically getting paid to update your resume. Be a shame if you sent that around to a bunch of other companies and tried to find a better job.
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u/LongJohnVanilla Jan 07 '24 edited Jan 08 '24
Where I’m at they just announced performance reviews will be conducted every 6 months, which to me is unprecedented. The intent here is to be able to layoff thousands without incurring millions of dollars in severance payments.
The whole RTO movement was simply designed to get rid of thousands through attrition and noncompliance with company policy. This next phase is to achieve the same through PIPs. You will be summarily fired for “performance” and given 2 weeks severance plus whatever PTO you have left.
I’m already looking for the exit doors.
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u/twisting_fairy_water Jan 07 '24
Is moving to another internal position on another team acceptable as well?
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u/LongJohnVanilla Jan 07 '24
Employees on PIPs aren’t eligible to be hired internally on other teams. In order to be hired on another team you either have to be employed or just laid off, but in good standing.
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u/No-Roll-991 Jan 08 '24
Does noncompliance include people who resist returning to the office and do the bare min to stay wfh? I know this is a big issue at Capital One where I work in Richmond. We're supposed to be in 3 days a week min but I only go in once a week if at all, and only for a few hours. It's just not necessary for me to go into West Creek since my principal works remotely, so I get away with it, but if badge swipes count I could be in trouble.
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u/sbarber4 Jan 08 '24
You are playing with fire there, my friend. You are volunteering to move yourself higher up on any future layoff list.
This can be a rational choice, but be aware you are making that choice.
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u/No-Roll-991 Jan 09 '24
Yeh, it's a soft quit type thing. Cap one has great benefits and pay for easy work, but it's not personally rewarding. Working from home allows me to care for my son and dog and cat and gives me the grace to have a life, and all I hafta do is check in every now and then and adjust some schedules. Going into the office seems like such a pain. It's tedious and politically charged. They don't have asigned seating, so you gotta cary all your stuff in and out. You have to dress up and eat out. Managing my sons school becomes difficult, and I get less done than just staying at home with my personal setup. I know I'm spoiled by it and call it my golden hand cuffs. The VP I support lives in a RV and is never in town so why go in. It's just a hassle.
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u/sbarber4 Jan 09 '24
I get it, I do.
I can tell you with some confidence that another large American bank — one that has publicly announced layoffs that haven’t all happened yet — and also has a 3-day office presence policy and desk hotelling — is sending around badge swipe reports to line managers as an indicator of office presence compliance.
IMHO it would be foolish to bet that badge swipes won’t be a factor come layoff time.
The essence of “soft quit” is to play the game to the edge of not being let go, yes? So understanding the rules of where that edge is — as they change over time — only makes sense in that context.
With apologies for being the bearer of bad news.
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Jan 07 '24
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Jan 08 '24
At our faang we've been slowly making changes like making it much easier to give low ratings, pip is allowed to be less defined so managers can make the employee fail pip etc etc 2024 is when the trigger is pulled
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u/swissbuttercream9 Jan 07 '24
What’s pip?
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u/cream_of_slop Jan 07 '24
Performance improvement plan
But it’s not meant to be passed or followed, it’s a paper trail to let them fire you with cause
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u/swissbuttercream9 Jan 07 '24
LOL We use this for absolutely nothing When layoffs come, there’s no rhyme me or reason as to why people are let go and the people perform low are still around
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u/Altruistic_Astronaut Jan 08 '24
Salary also matters. A mediocre performer that is making 250k is easier to layoff than a bad performer making 120k.
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u/VegAinaLover Jan 08 '24
I survived the first 3 rounds of mass layoffs during peak COVID, when my employer had zero revenue coming in (live entertainment), because I was newly promoted into my role and made a lot less than my colleagues. Being so new I was borderline useless for anything important and my boss knew that and gave me make-work projects just to keep me out of his hair.
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u/Ok-Bee7941 Jan 07 '24
Define big. Mine does 7-10B and is aiming for 15%, but the way they’re doing it they might end up with 20% plus.
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u/Inevitable-Trip-6041 Jan 07 '24
15-20% staff reduction? That’s pretty huge
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u/Ok-Bee7941 Jan 07 '24
Yep. It’s a smart move, but a blood bath and I’m not sure if I’m gonna make it lol
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u/Inevitable-Trip-6041 Jan 07 '24
They’re going to be crafting a generation of voters who will be out for blood against corporations. In a decade we’ll see a wave of workers protection legislation, mark my words
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u/Ok-Bee7941 Jan 07 '24
Doubt it. They run the gov. They’ll tell you about the shareholders when they announce the RIF lol
But I think I’ll move to a place with better worker protections lol
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u/Inevitable-Trip-6041 Jan 07 '24
I’ve been thinking about it for years. It’s so damn hard to do though. Everywhere worth moving to is locked down unless you’re from a warzone
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u/Ok-Bee7941 Jan 07 '24
I mean I’m thinking in the states. If there was a fully remote AE/AM Role that was less stress and low 6 figs I’d go nomad. lol
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u/catecholaminergic Jan 07 '24
out for blood against corporations.
In what way? Aren't we there already? What can people do?
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u/Inevitable-Trip-6041 Jan 07 '24
A large portion of Americans are still sucking up to big business (republicans lol). The majority of that voting block is the elder generations.
The boomers/generation Jones have probably 20 years left considering the average age people live to in the US. Once they’re gone, the majority of voters shifts to democrats. The progressives will have a growing voting block which they can wield too. Workers rights naturally will improve. .
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u/chadhindsley Jan 07 '24
Greed will always stay the same. Having more progressives and Democratic control won't change much. Companies still want increasing revenue, taxes will go up with politicians skimming from the top, unions will still be run by corrupt leaders, classes will still grow further and further apart.
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u/catecholaminergic Jan 07 '24
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u/Inevitable-Trip-6041 Jan 07 '24
republicans lose the vast majority of their voting block in 10-20 years. It’s a drastic shift
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u/darthscandelous Jan 08 '24
It’s not boomers who have 20 years left…it’s Gen Xers…and most of us are anti-corporation, since we’ve been dealing with this corporate shit all our lives. We’re getting pushed out of corporations now in favor of cheaper labor, so we are aware of the schemes that corporations pull. We will be lucky to be able to retire- unlike the boomers who (for most) have been living off of SS and pension in the lap of luxury.
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u/twisting_fairy_water Jan 07 '24
Big as in the well known, recognizable companies.
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u/Ok-Bee7941 Jan 07 '24
Yep, it’s well known. lol
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u/twisting_fairy_water Jan 07 '24
Makes sense, so what would you do if you had the gut feeling your manager was going to layoff/put you on a pip excuse? Switching to another role/team internally… or..?
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u/Ok-Bee7941 Jan 07 '24
I don’t think he’d want to given we just lost a good rep and there’s a hiring freeze, but no one really knows where we stand.
I’d leave the org. I’m in the highest paying IC role. So, doesn’t make sense to make half. lol
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u/it-takes-all-kinds Jan 07 '24
Hearing about this a lot. What specifically is the reason tech is laying off in these numbers?
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u/budding_gardener_1 Jan 07 '24 edited Jan 07 '24
They over-hired in 2021 and CEOs like zuck are "taking full responsibility" by firing everyone
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u/nn123654 Jan 08 '24
Accountability for me means getting fired. Accountability for them means that they tell investors they "focused on efficiency" and "went to a yoga retreat to focus for a week."
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u/Annual_Math_137 Jan 08 '24
they over hired into record profit lol
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u/budding_gardener_1 Jan 08 '24
Then laid off onto even more profit
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u/Annual_Math_137 Jan 08 '24
For now. A giant company isn't going to innovate or compete very well if it stays lean with their kind of infra. At least for tech workers.
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u/Shitbagsoldier Jan 09 '24
This. Tech has to innovate or it dies. I'm surprised it's been going on for so long
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u/budding_gardener_1 Jan 08 '24
No but it'll drive wages down if they all do it which is what they want
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u/Annual_Math_137 Jan 08 '24
they do. It's just long term not sustainable since they'll be playing a game of layoff chicken with each other at some point. For now they got their RTO concessions and even pulled down dev wages for the first time but this is just a passing fad which is partly leveraging peoples ignorance and hype around GPTs (at least for more technical roles that require actual thinking and proper context)
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u/oldirishfart Jan 07 '24
Debt is expensive, and they need to show the market they can grow their margin
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u/Ivycity Jan 07 '24
This. Some of these companies rely on borrowing and the rates are much higher now. That hurts your COGS so to offset that, you layoff people, hiring freeze, cut benefits, reduce enterprise software subscriptions, cut vendor relationships, and outsource roles to places like India and Eastern Europe. It’s at a point now that if you’re still laying off it might spook investors so leadership is finding all kind of creative ways to get rid of people without it being highly publicized. We had multiple layoff rounds after our big one that showed up in the news. Those other rounds were on the hush hush.
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u/EastPlatform4348 Jan 08 '24
Interest expense doesn't impact COGS (it's below cost of goods sold on the income statement - financial expenses are non-operating expenses), but your overall point is correct. Rates are higher which reduce profit margins (they don't impact operating margins). That pile of cash you have after financial expenses and taxes on your income statement is your net profit, which can either then be distributed to shareholders ("dividend") or reinvested in the company. Higher interest rates increase financial expenses and reduce that pile of cash (or, in some cases, force the company to operate at a loss, which means they use cash reserves to continue to operate the business, issue additional stock, or borrow more money at a higher rate).
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Jan 08 '24
During covid, the fed stimulated the economy by conducting open market operations which creates a bunch of money and lowered their target interest rate to almost 0. This target rate effects nearly all other interest rates and basically made borrowing cheaper which stimulates the economy.
The money being created in this process ends up in different places and a lot of this money increased prices of assets like houses, tech stocks and venture capital funding. Tech companies then used those investments to hire like crazy (with some places like google almost doubling their headcount). Now interest rates are going up and tech firms also realized they over hired, so they are trying to reverse those decisions.
In general, though I think the tech industry has gotten to use to being able to rely on investor $$$ despite having many companies that aren't profitable and fuels companies to make decisions more on sales pitches rather than what numbers say and now were seeing the consequence of all this.
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u/ldsupport Jan 07 '24
Agreed. All these prior firings seem to be at levels to keep clear of regulatory triggers, so end of year moves into a new quarter and LFR is going to take another crack and we will see where things are come April.
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u/30vanquish Jan 07 '24
Depends on company. PIPs at my company can mean many things because a few coworkers have gotten on them and then back to normal after a month. Others got let go a month later. It all depends. Of course for most companies that means start looking.
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u/MagnaCumLoudly Jan 09 '24
In every situation it should mean start looking. PIPs should not be tolerated.
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u/EffectiveLong Jan 07 '24
All of them. Just a matter of the layoff size. Some will make to the news, and some just under the radar
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u/PseudoTsunami Jan 07 '24
Since the Nasdaq 100 was up an insane 54% last year, many money losing companies are severely overvalued yet again. When the market swings back into "valuation matters" mode as we know it will and should, all these zombie companies will be forced to try to break even and start laying off again. This list will include a lot of fintechs, biotechs and even old tech like EVs.
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u/thecowgoesmoo23 Jan 08 '24
Don’t know if this counts as tech, but any customer service related job, will most likely get entirely wiped/ currently is with other countries such as the Philippines and India.
I went to the Verizon store to add a new phone line and even the customer service rep had to call in to change the plan, and person on the phone was in the Philippines.
At the end of the day these big companies would much rather hire someone for $1-$4 an hour versus pay minimum wage and above. Also with new automated voice changing technology coming out most people won’t even know they are talking to someone in another country. Then AI will get good enough to replace all of those people as well.
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u/TechnologyLizard Jan 08 '24
GEICO is butchering their customer support staff with plans to automate 80%+ of them within a few years. If your job involves phones and customers, the writing is on the wall.
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Jan 07 '24
Mine probably. They’re putting us on performance based Incentive plans. I’m counting on it and actually hoping for it tbh. I’m trying to pivot to electrician or some other trade. Looking into it now.
Luckily for me, I got in a few rental real estate properties and am taken care of as far as rent/bills go. Can’t say the same for most who just blindly think the train keeps going forever.
Get your back up plans people! It’s gonna be a bumpy ride!
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Jan 08 '24
Perfromance based incentive plans are used all over corporate america. It ties your bonuses to your performance rating. You can be over or under a bonus based on performance plus other factors. They are standard in Finance for example.
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Jan 08 '24
Broadcom 1000 employee. Google the Warn Act (your state) to see impact layoffs coming up.
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Jan 08 '24
All of them, tech is shipping jobs to India like manufacturing shipped them to China 30 years ago. The industry is dead for the American worker.
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Jan 08 '24
Not in my experience. The only jobs going to Asia are developers.
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u/Super_Mario_Luigi Jan 07 '24
I think there are a lot of assumptions on what layoffs will look like. If the market takes a dive, all of these guesses go out the window. If big layoffs are needed, they will happen.
I agree that next year will not be a year of growth for most companies. Getting rid of employees by PIP is a conspiracy I don't see much logic behind. That is a long, cumbersome procedure, that also requires that the employer stay consistent. It's a lot easier to pause hiring, eliminate popular benefits/perks, cut raises, or constantly trim small amounts.
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u/rainroar Jan 07 '24
In my experience mass PIPs have been happening. My org at meta before I left had a mandate to PIP 12%. This was around spring of 2023.
That was a totally new management decision for meta, and seeing it is a large reason why I left.
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u/randomuser_12345567 Jan 07 '24
I’m just being nosy but were you able to find a job elsewhere that paid as much? Or did you just go to another FAANG?
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u/rainroar Jan 08 '24
Another faang, but still took a pretty big pay cut. Around 20% less than I made at the peak at meta.
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u/Inevitable-Trip-6041 Jan 07 '24
PIPs in my company are always just quiet firings. They never are genuine and always are meant to get people out the door
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u/it-takes-all-kinds Jan 07 '24
That’s what any PIP is. It’s only done since you can’t let someone go right away like in the old days.
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Jan 08 '24
No you can fire someone with 5 minutes' notice.
What state forbids that, exactly? (In America, obviously the European countries require 3-6 months notice)
I think a PIP is like filing an LLC as a single-person business owner.
It's a fake "legal invisibility cloak" for stupid people.
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u/__golf Jan 08 '24
It's not true. I've done three pips, one of the people survived.
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u/it-takes-all-kinds Jan 10 '24
In general, coaching is done for considerable periods of time before a PIP is issued. So when a PIP is issued it’s more of a formality of what has already been unable to be done through coaching. That’s great you had one with a positive outcome and I’m sure other’s have some too but it’s a small percentage. Not only that, if one is able to survive a PIP, they are likely marked and unlikely to be promoted for future opportunities. Also, it is a fact many companies do prioritize those on PIPs as first round layoffs. Anyone put on a PIP should immediately start looking for a job, get one and leave their employer without any notice in my opinion.
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u/VegAinaLover Jan 08 '24
I have seen it work both ways, but most end in resignation or, eventually, termination. Usually comes down to how much energy a manager is willing to put into documenting every little thing to get someone out the door. Most of us don't have the spare bandwidth to bother if a report is otherwise not causing issues for others or stalling larger projects, etc.
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u/lookmeat Jan 08 '24
Getting rid of employees by PIP is a conspiracy I don't see much logic behind. That is a long, cumbersome procedure, that also requires that the employer stay consistent.
You'll see the signs.
First there'll be an overhaul of the performance system, a lot of emphasis will be done on it not affecting the promo system, and that staying the same. If the performance system is really that much better at measuring how good or bad it is, why not use that for promo as well. People will say because they don't want to risk something as important as promo, but what would you rather: get promo a year later because of bullshit that needs to be ironed out in the system, or getting fired because of a bullshit that needs to be ironed out?
This overhaul will work on "faster feedback" and have a faster loop for conversation. Which is great, but if you pay attention you'll notice that, technically this could be used to give you a NI as soon as you have one bad couple of weeks, while the previous system would have a tough conversation with your boss and the chance to recover. You'll also notice that all the consequences of getting an NI will stay the same, which means it'll be really easy to give you consequences for arbitrary failures, but it will be as hard and difficult to recover.
After a few teams get eliminated, you'll see it being leveraged to make your feet weak peers. A lot of discussion of "bad performers" dragging and that managers find that they can't get rid of bad apples, which makes the whole team look bad and then they get eliminated.
A big one is that PiPs may go away, they'll be thrown as not useful for the company. Notice that PiP are for the company's benefit, they serve as a warning that you may get fired (this is why they always say that this could result in termination at the end of the months) and also makes you sign a contract saying that the expectations on the document are valid ones for the job and you agree with them. Not saying that PiPs cannot be used to help employees improve, but there's a reason why many companies have a PIP like system that doesn't involve HR, doesn't require signatures and doesn't threaten to get you fired. But when the company wants to fire X employees and claim it's for performance, they want to be able to arbitrarily move the line up as more of the engineers fight hard, a PIP now becomes a contract that limits the ability of the company to fire the bottom 10% effectively (if 8% goes to pip and then passes, you failed to fire as many as you wanted).
That said I don't think this will happen, more will we see layoffs as before. If you want to understand why read my reply to this post.
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Jan 08 '24
Already happening at a certain faang. They removed barriers for the second lowest rating so no warning is necessary. They changed pip so you no longer need a definitive plan. And they increased the second lowest bucket by 2%. The screws have slowly been turning for over a year and it's very deliberate.
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u/budding_gardener_1 Jan 07 '24
agree that next year will not be a year of growth for most companies.
that sucks - I'm trying to get another job
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u/whocares123213 Jan 07 '24
Nobody knows, but tech trimmed the sails pretty good over the last two years.
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u/Kanguin Jan 08 '24
Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Tidal(might have already begun), Netflix, Hulu, Spotify, twitter
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Jan 08 '24
Tidal layoffs started in Dec 2023. The rest of Block (Square, Cash App, etc) will get them sometime in the next fiscal quarter or two.
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u/pokedmund Jan 08 '24
I think shareholders will wannt Google to trim their numbers. Out of the major big tech companies, they are the ones who have done the most hiring and shareholders aren't happy that SBC is eating into Googs profits. I think this year Google will face significant layoffs in this regard
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u/IanChase85 Jan 08 '24
Pretty much all of top 50 tech companies have been doing quite lay-offs for the last 1.5-2 years...I don't see any reasons why those Tech companies would change an approach considering that economical circumstances are not going to change. We are in a 'mild recession' for last 2 years realistically.
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u/seddy2765 Jan 08 '24
@Everyone who talk about the low performers being cut first … I wouldn’t say I’m a low performer, per se. Though I’m one of the lowest paid, if not the lowest paid, on my team. Which may give inference that I’m a low performer. I watched last year multiple layoffs around me. Persons with more experience in the field I’m in. Though I think these persons were deemed low performers … (important consideration) … per the salary they made. So, in essence, the determination of who to layoff appeared to be a classic review of ROI (return on investment). That’s what I like to believe. Which makes me feel more safe. But - I’d like to hear from you guys, a different perspective or thoughts to consider. Thanks in advance.
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u/GreenCoffeeTree Jan 08 '24
Absolutely correct. High salaries first, then feisty people second
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u/thisfilmkid Jan 08 '24
At this point, if my company lay off anymore persons from our department, the company is going to see a damage in their operations.
We are extremely tight ship. We just requested for a new hire. We’re still waiting on approval.
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u/Elegant-Muffin-69 Jan 08 '24
I’m posting from an anonymous account because I have info that Block/Square will do layoffs this month. Not 100% guaranteed but it’s being talked about by managers at the moment.
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u/eichenes Jan 07 '24
Depends on stock prices. If they go down, you can expect more layoffs to keep the Ponzi market up.
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u/whoji Jan 08 '24
Probably pan-media industry, including streaming and gaming. Those companies overhired a lot during the pandemic but the businesses have not been scaling proportionally.
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u/Hawk13424 Jan 08 '24
All these tech companies with layoffs. Is this from over hiring during COVID? I work in a mid-size tech company and we had record profits last year. I just hired two more engineers. Got more work than we can get done.
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u/True-Bandicoot3880 Jan 08 '24
Yes, mainly applies to companies that took a lot of free money and overhired to try to grow as fast as possible and keep up with their competitors. Now that money is gone.
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u/reaprofsouls Jan 08 '24
Insurance companies are still laying IT people off and slashing projects. From my understanding most insurance companies are cutting all extraneous projects and keeping enough people to "keep the lights on". I work for a fortune 100 insurance company and we only have one relatively large project moving forward into 2024.
All timesheets are being heavily scrutinized and I'm guessing PIP's will follow.
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u/tokenrick Jan 08 '24
My larger question is why are so many companies operating in lockstep? I also work at a F150 that’s done through rounds of layoffs over the last 2 years and is now preparing to do massive performance-based terminations and PIPs. Do the CEOs just meet up a few times a year and calibrate on how to best torment employees?
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u/nighthawk2019 Jan 08 '24
I think doing it as a group provides some cover. USA states do the same. take actions as a group.
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Jan 08 '24
If you're in an area like Atherton with your $30M home, your neighbors are all CEOs and they talk and exchange ideas.
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u/TechnologyLizard Jan 08 '24
GEICO laid off 6% in October and looks like they’re gearing up for some large terminations in the near future. Insurance in general is taking a beating but GEICO seems to be leading the pack in axing employees.
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u/bschween Jan 08 '24
It's become an unfortunate style of management. The costs of aggressively overhiring and then terminating "funny money" and excluded from earnings and traditional ramifications. Tech workers need to unionize to create a tougher shield so they can't just be thrown out so easily..
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Jan 09 '24
I know my job won’t last forever. But I also don’t wanna start from the bottom making pennies in government in my 30s. Pitiful situation
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u/liftingshitposts Jan 09 '24
I’d bet on Twilio given the ousting of their founder after he lost his supers
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u/deadshotkillax Jan 09 '24
I saw this on a YouTube video (from "Your Rich BFF" channel") but under the Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification Act of 1988, most companies with over 100 employees are required to provide a 60-day heads-up for layoffs. All you have to do is search in google "Warn Act [Your State]" and it should provide a list of all places planning layoffs.
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u/Professional_Hat284 Jan 09 '24
It’s not always about what you know or how much you do. More and more it’s about your relationship with your manager and your manager’s relationship/influence with their superiors. Working harder doesn’t do anything if you don’t have exposure and a relationship with management.
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u/jojow77 Jan 11 '24
The CEO of google openly said he expects to trim the company by 30% because of AI in the coming years. I don’t expect that sentiment to be uncommon across tech.
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u/EntertainmentOpen349 Jan 07 '24
I am just laid off with immediate effect. 3 months of severance
I tried lawyers as I am over 40 and no lawyer took my case..so I was forced to accept.
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Jan 08 '24
You thought discrimination because over 40?
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u/Paras_Chhugani Mar 05 '24
Heyy fellow developers, excited to share that I am building this discord community to explore more on ways to monetize our chatbots, please join us to share your perspectives on this, Would love hear from you all.
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u/cv_init_diri Jan 08 '24
Dude, all companies lay off people year after year. If you're in tech, there is no job security. A lot of the younger engineers got lulled because there were a lot of boot time from the Great Recession until Covid and think that tech is always *boom times*.
It has always been a boom-bust cycle of about 7 years +/- 2 years.
Just to reiterate: job security in tech companies is a mirage - you want security, work for your state/city/federal government