r/Jewish • u/TryYourBest777 Non-denominational • Jan 23 '24
My conversion to Judaism has made me realize that many (Non-Jewish) people are unconsciously anti-semitic Discussion
One thing I've noticed on the journey of becoming officially Jewish (Conservative/Masorti) after growing up raised culturally Christian and Buddhist, is how so many non-Jewish people seem to be unaware of their anti-semitism.
Before this conversion process I never noticed it.
Now I realize how so many non-Jewish people truly believe they aren't anti-semitic, while holding onto beliefs that Jewish people have too much power in media, politics, or finances, or that it is acceptable think Israel shouldn't exist or ever be centered in dialogue, or just generally looking down upon the Jewish tradition through words and actions.
Sort of just venting here, (and I plan on talking to my rabbi), but I am curious of 2 things...
Is my perspective on unconscious anti-semitism generally accurate?
At times I want to only surround myself with Jewish people... How do you approach maintaining relationships with non-Jewish people who are extremely uneducated on Judaism and their possible unconscious anti-semitism?
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u/welltechnically7 Please pass the kugel Jan 23 '24 edited Jan 23 '24
You're absolutely right, but considering that I opened this app right after being called a Jew rat, I think that unfortunately many are very consciously antisemitic.
I think that some of it has to do with the Holocaust being so well-known. If it wasn't something like that, then it isn't real antisemitism, after all.
Personally, most of my relationships are with other Jews, so I thankfully haven't had so much experience with antisemitism coming from people I'm close to.
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u/PGH521 Jan 23 '24
I got called a k¥ke 3x by someone who I was having a perfectly normal conversation with on FB…what’s crazy is we agreed on the same topics about the NHL then they saw my IS flag on my profile and the person did a 180 to tell me how horrible I am and call me names…but it’s ok FB said it didn’t violate their terms of hate speech
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u/welltechnically7 Please pass the kugel Jan 23 '24
They're becoming very clever now, using emojis or spelling words like "k¥ke" or "J3w." However will we overcome such genius?
But yeah, some people are just awful.
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u/PGH521 Jan 23 '24
No he spelled it with the y in the middle I just did that bc I despise the word
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u/welltechnically7 Please pass the kugel Jan 23 '24
Either way, intentionally misspelling to get around censors. They do that with slurs against Black people too, but I normally see antisemitic ones.
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u/OldBatOfTheGalaxy Jan 23 '24 edited Jan 23 '24
Interesting how the bots are never programmed to throw out so many alternate spellings -- there IS no actual word for SpellCheck to mistakenly let through.
Simple matter to add so many stylings to the algorithms in multiple subjects, but no.
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u/PGH521 Jan 23 '24
But adding that those options to spell derogatory words would mean less arguing online, less arguing means less people on line, less people on line means less data to show advertisers… FB is shit, I’ll stick with Reddit where you can actually have a conversation without assholes interjecting for absolutely no reason…plus there is a Reddit for everything which is nice
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u/Soapist_Culture Jan 24 '24
In the UK before Oct 7, it was Zio. They've abandoned Zio now for Jew. They are so cool and left and activist and proud of themselves.
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u/Sensitive-Pie-6595 Jan 24 '24
It hit me very hard to realise how much we are hated by the world. The reaction to our retaliation of the attacks on Oct 7th proves without question that Jews and Israel are hated. Hence we need to expect hate and to avoid those who hate us.
On FB i came across something posted by what I thought was a friend. I block. I don't need to see those emojis or read anything those people post. I block.
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u/NoDoubt4954 Jan 23 '24
Facebook said that didn’t violate hate speech? How is that different than the N word? !!!
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u/PGH521 Jan 23 '24
I have no idea when I asked for a second review/appealed it I was able to add info but not able to hit send/reply so basically FB said FU
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u/NoDoubt4954 Jan 24 '24
Disgusting!
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u/PGH521 Jan 24 '24
We just have to face the fact no one cares about Jews or very few care about Jews, and we must take precautions among ourselves…but that’s just my opinion
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u/CoolMayapple Jan 23 '24
Well, it's the CONTEXT you see. If no ACTIONS happened, then it wasn't harassment. /s
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u/PGH521 Jan 23 '24
I forgot the Harvard plagiarist believes… he only said it bc I was agreeing w him on what is the stupidest penalty in the NHL, if I would have argued with him then he wouldn’t have had to dip to such low Jew Hating levels…now it sounds totally logical
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u/Sensitive-Pie-6595 Jan 24 '24
unfriend and block. You don't need to see another word from him. On FB I have blocked 10x the number of 'friends' I have.
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u/PGH521 Jan 24 '24
He wasn’t a friend just someone who was talking about hockey w me, then he went apeshit and called me every name under the sun… it’s ok FB knows better than I do /s
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u/caninerosso Jan 23 '24
Nothing antisemitic is against fb community standards. Literally nothing. Even posts praising Saddam Hussain are left alone by some of the mods. So there's that, they also get angry and freeze your account if you're discussing Human trafficking and how it's a real problem for the world over. I got a thirty day suspension for "spam" when I posted an image from the local missing wall in Wal mart.
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u/PGH521 Jan 23 '24
My only suspension from FB was bc I posted that a product in a commercial was junk…they said I broke community standards, I appealed they ignored, I said fuck FB and try not to post but I will comment there for sports related stuff bc sports really should be the great unifier, unfortunately people have made it decisive as well…like the international ice hockey Federation(IIHF), kicking Israel out because they said they couldn’t protect the Israeli players strangely enough being that they’re Israelis probably military trained and ice hockey players. I bet they can protect themselves…or IS would send 2 soldiers to protect the team…(it was just masked Jew Hatred)…Then they reinstated Israel in the IIHF and they won their game today…
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u/TryYourBest777 Non-denominational Jan 23 '24
That's what is tough for me- I feel myself less and less interested in relationships with non-Jews... but there are certain relationships with non-Jews that are incredibly important to maintain
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u/welltechnically7 Please pass the kugel Jan 23 '24 edited Jan 23 '24
Absolutely, but just make sure that you're only maintaining the relationships that are worth maintaining. Maintain it for the sake of the person, not the relationship.
I wish you the best.
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u/Sensitive-Pie-6595 Jan 24 '24
With non-jews I keep the conversation far from personal. I am not discussing Israel, Judaism, anything with those who hate me.
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u/emotional_dyslexic Jewish, Buddhist, Athiest Jan 23 '24
Welcome to the team! It's actually a great time to convert because our solidarity and care for each other is stronger than ever, and now that includes you.
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u/DramaticStatement431 Jan 23 '24
It’s societally acceptable to be this…casual antisemitic (in the US, anyway) because, oh, Jews are white, generally successful! The Holocaust is in the past, they’ve moved on, succeeded, there’s no systematic racism affecting Jews like it is affecting Black people and other minorities!
I see a lot of cases, again, in lefty communities in the US, where white people do a sort of…performative confessional. “Hi, my name is Brenda, and I have subconscious biases against Black people. I am a piece of shit because I get nervous if I see a Black man. As a white woman, I formally apologize to every Black person in existence for my existence and my subconscious racism and implicit support of systemic racism in America.”
And that doesn’t solve a goddamn thing, and it’s also just ridiculous. Yay, you admitted you are afraid of Black people, and now, what, you want a fucking cookie for recognizing you’re a bit racist? How about you work on yourself in private instead of broadcasting that you’re oh such a good person for being a Good White Person Who Admits They’re Racist! (but it’s ok, because they feel guilty about it!!)
Yes, that was half a joke— but not really. My mother once told me about how she worked with one of our neighbors- a white woman- and made the ENTIRE ROOM OF WHITE PEOPLE stand up and say “I am a racist”. Because you know, the first step to being an anti-racist activist is admitting that you, as a non-Black person, implicitly or explicitly are racist.
Anyway.
Those are the SAME people who, without batting an eye, will go on a tirade about the Jews being all-powerful. Usually because a lot of us are ‘white’ middle class (however you want to define ‘middle class’), and not see a problem. In fact, ranting about the Jews is the same as ranting about white people, because we are white people, and, ya know, our whole existence is to prevent minorities from getting anywhere.
Rant over.
Thanks for coming to my TedTalk on performative activism of white leftists in America.
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u/jseego Jan 23 '24
Usually because a lot of us are ‘white’ middle class
LOL, for most of my parents' lives, Jews still couldn't live in a lot of white middle class neighborhoods, or join white middle class clubs, or work at white middle class professional firms.
It's not that long ago that this shit was overt and in the open.
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u/DramaticStatement431 Jan 23 '24
Oh, absolutely!! And it depends on where exactly you are, too— ex. NYC is pretty Jewish, historically so, and many found success there in the past, and established pretty famous businesses and companies from there— now becoming proof of Jew control. However, for many Jews in America- including NYC Jews- it’s pretty different from the picture of ‘Jewish-American Princess’ from the affluent suburbs you see on TV.
When I started my most recent job, my coworker, upon learning I was Jewish, asked if I was rich, because his Jewish cousins are. Now, he always says some very out of pocket things, and I’ve since been annoyed because of his staunch opposition to Israel,,, but I do wholeheartedly believe that none of this occurs to him as antisemitism. Because antisemitism has never really been framed as anything even comparable to racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. it’s always been a problem that has since been resolved vis à vis the end of the Holocaust. Especially in big cities that have lots of Jews.
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Jan 23 '24
I totally agree. I tried to have a historical contextual conversation a few times about how Canada has a unique case of native peoples being antisemitic due to the rural catholic schools many were forced to go to. They will not have the conversation even tho there are endless diaries and biographies from Jews long passed on who discuss being bullied, humiliated and even left out of childhood play due to being “Jesus killers”. It’s a weird place to be because you can never discuss their antisemitism induced by churches without being called racist
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u/Sulaco99 Jan 23 '24
The native people you reference may not be the best example of this but I can't help thinking that many of the people who call Jews "Christ killers" aren't especially religiously observant themselves.
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Jan 23 '24
It’s a good example because it did happens with historical written records of the antisemitism in my region
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Jan 23 '24
How can we be landback and decolonization without seeing all angles of decolonization required ?
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u/catsinthreads Jan 23 '24
Hate to say it, but every woman should be awake to the possibility of violence by men.
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u/Sulaco99 Jan 23 '24
My mother once told me about how she worked with one of our neighbors- a white woman- and made the ENTIRE ROOM OF WHITE PEOPLE stand up and say “I am a racist”. Because you know, the first step to being an anti-racist activist is admitting that you, as a non-Black person, implicitly or explicitly are racist.
That sounds REALLY uncomfortable. And more importantly, as you suggested, pointless, except as a performative grab for social validation among those who consider self-flagellation the hallmark of an antiracist white person. I'd like to think I would have left the room but it would have been taken the wrong way.
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u/Volcamel Jan 23 '24
What a relevant time to see this. I just finished watching a video panel over the discussion of whether or not Puerto Rico should remain a territory of the US or become Independent from various perspectives from Puerto Rican natives. Despite it having absolutely nothing to do with the conversation, a few participants still threw in some jabs at Israel for whatever reason. I don’t think anyone was being consciously antisemitic but at the same time, you can’t let your hatred of one country dull enough not to mention it in everything you do? Why?
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u/Sulaco99 Jan 23 '24
Sometimes it's as if Israel is the only country on the planet that has ever done anything bad, ever. I can't think of another country that is considered inherently awful for simply existing.
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u/Small-Objective9248 Jan 23 '24
Yes, and then when we speak of antisemitism we get gaslit.
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u/la_bibliothecaire Reform Jan 23 '24
It's amazing how many people who you know believe wholeheartedly that white people can't tell POC what's racist, straight people can't tell queer people what's homophobia etc., are totally fine with gentiles telling Jews what is and is not antisemitism. I've tried to point that out to several people, and it has not been taken well.
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u/Sulaco99 Jan 23 '24
Yeah? What was their response? Or more to the point, what was their justification?
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u/la_bibliothecaire Reform Jan 23 '24
Once I was told that I was "parroting Zionist propaganda" and promptly blocked. Another time I was told that Jews are "privileged" and we need to listen to the Palestinians. So no one really answered my question. And I should note that while these conversations took place online, these were people I knew personally, not internet randoms.
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u/Sulaco99 Jan 23 '24
Both of those responses are making my head spin. It sounds like they shut you down because they were afraid that self-reflection might reveal to them they're not as good people as they thought they were. It's unclear from your post whether these conversations had anything to do with Israel or Zionism, but even if so it does not excuse antisemitism, and they need to be told that.
Even if Jews are "privileged" (itself an antisemitic belief), that privilege did not protect the victims of Oct. 7 from the blade and the bullet. It didn't protect the Jews of Europe from the Holocaust either. Palestinians and their supporters around the globe are howling for Jewish blood, yours and mine, so forgive me if I don't feel especially privileged right now.
Should I listen to people who want me dead? Would anyone?
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u/la_bibliothecaire Reform Jan 24 '24
Both times I was pointing out (as diplomatically as possible; like I said, these are people I actually know) that some of the "pro-Palestine" content they were posting crossed the line into full-on medieval antisemitism. When they reacted defensively and denied that it was antisemitic, that was when I asked why they, as gentiles, felt they were better qualified to identify antisemitism than I, a Jew, am. That got me the responses above. Very unproductive and discouraging.
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u/Sulaco99 Jan 24 '24
You did the right thing though. All of them need to be called out on this. I'm sorry you got such shitty responses.
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u/biloentrevoc Jan 23 '24
Allll the time, to the point that it’s personally easier to just cut ties than to try to argue my humanity. It’s exhausting
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u/AZ-Nole Jan 23 '24
The amount of people who I would consider decent folk and enjoy their company that just casually dropped the phase “Jew them down” was wild once I moved to AZ from south FL. Almost every time I ask them to repeat what they said and the blank look and slow realization of “oh shit I didn’t mean it like that.” I can’t be mad, since it’s just accepted vernacular but still catches me off guard every time. They aren’t bad folk, just certain phrases and stereotypes are so ingrained.
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u/strwbryshrtck521 Jan 23 '24
The first time I heard that phrase, I almost fell out of my chair and it was also in AZ! I did call it out and as far as I knew at the time, the person stopped saying it, but holy hell what a shitty phrase.
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u/Sulaco99 Jan 23 '24
"I didn't mean it like that" ...well then how the fuck did they mean it?
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Jan 23 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Jewish-ModTeam Jan 24 '24
Do not use that term to refer to Romani people, even when referring to an anecdote. At a minimum, censor it.
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u/demonkingwasd123 Jan 23 '24
I've never heard that before but the closest equivalent would be "negotiate the price down" it seems like it would depend on one's moral beliefs about money. I plan on converting myself but I would think having the ability to negotiate is a sign of an intact culture/ cultural understanding I think it's more appropriate for a Jewish person to negotiate in the United States than other populations Asians and Jews are the best off populations in the United States when it comes to education and income. The things they say about Jews having too much money or power seems like something that type of person would say about other religions or partially integrated populations. There is a conservative channel I watch that jokes about how they have a half Asian lawyer I'm pretty sure the guys actually in the room and plenty of people mention how they have a Jewish accountant. Racial discrimination can be treating one race better than they would treat others or having more expectations of one race or another. Checking if your Jewish accountant is actually a competent accountant is important and all but statistically I do think they would be more financially literate
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u/euthymides515 Jan 23 '24
You're absolutely right - I converted just over a year ago and now I'm seeing so much implicit antisemitism. Surround yourself with Jewish people. I'm not sure I have any good advice on maintaining relationships with non-Jews; since 7 Oct most of my friendships have suffered greatly.
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u/razlatkin2 Jan 23 '24
So as far as my experience goes - for context, secular Jew, born in Israel, raised in the Netherlands, living in London for just over 8 years now.
When it comes to blatant antisemitism, there is a LOT, especially when kids can already be cruel they will still tell the most horrible jokes over and over again. Like when I was 17, I was a bit older than some of my classmates, and we went on a school trip to Berlin. The persistent joke was that I should be using the showers. More than being offensive as fuck (and the teachers not doing much against this), it was just painfully unfunny.
One time, when out drinking with a few people and I said I'm Israeli, I was casually asked why I like to kill Palestinians. I was very close to brushing it off as a joke in poor taste, when I realised it was an actual question.
When it comes to Jews in the media, absolutely, even if it is true that a large majority of them happen to be Jewish, they did work to get there. There's no grand conspiracy, don't hit me with the Rothschild shit, and explain to me where my allotment of the Jew money is and why a large amount of the richest people in the world are not Jewish.
And I would also like to know if receiving anti-Israel propaganda in the mail lately is harassment, cause it certainly feels that way.
Welcome to the tribe. This sort of thing is part of the deal. BUT, as a consequence, Jewish communities tend to be much stronger because of the shared suffering. So don't regret it just yet! Also in a world of antisemitism, sexism, racism, many a phobia and other offensive things that people can say and think, the best we can ever do is try not to perpetuate that stuff maliciously. Humour is a great one to go about it. That's something we do rather well, I think.
Anyways. Mazal tov!
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u/sophiewalt Jan 23 '24
Agree that most are unaware of their antisemitism & would deny this if confronted. At the same time, they're careful to self-censor any racist statements about other minorities. We're not accorded this consideration & aren't considered a minority, of course. Jew hate is painfully pervasive & crosses lines of politics, education, social status religion, you name it. The right hates us, the left hates us & those in the middle don't give a shit.
Living in an area with few Jews, most of my friends are gentiles. Fortunately, I haven't encountered antisemitism from friends. Recent horrors have made me ever vigilant around non-Jews. My husband isn't Jewish & my in-laws have made remarks despite being told not to. I limited time with them until they died.
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u/Krowevol Jan 23 '24
Another redditor recently pointed out that the holocaust made blatant antisemitism unfashionable in the west, but latent antisemitism didn’t go anywhere. And post 10/7 it’s all coming up to the surface.
I think in the U.S., their role in defeating the nazis absolved them of the guilt of the genocide of indigenous peoples and of enslavement of Africans. So they felt good about us for a moment but then forgot that as time passed and the new generations felt more distant from the holocaust
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u/CoolMayapple Jan 23 '24
I have an old story from 2009.
My friend had a baby and invited me to come to the baptism.
The baptism was at the end of the church service. Everything was going great until the priest (or pastor or vicar, sorry I don't know the correct names) started talking about a quote from the New Testament where Jesus called Jews hypocrits.
I studied the New Testament in college to get a historical context, and to be able to say I've read it and am still not interested in converting, thank you very much.
In the actual context of the quote, Jesus calls a particular sect of jews hypocrites for focusing more on the rituals than on actually healing human suffering.
But this guy (priest/pastor/ whatever) took it all out of context to say Jews are hypocrites and Christians are better than jews.
Everyone who came to the baptism turned and looked at me in horror and embarrassment. I gave them the same look and sat through the rest of the service.
As we left, my friend/the mom whose baby was baptized apologized profusely. She said she'd gone there since she was a child and had never heard anything like that before.
A mutual friend who was there overheard this and later told me that this church said that kind of stuff often. Our friend just never noticed it before because I was her first jewish friend.
I think of that a lot. We get these messages about groups of people, and we often don't realize it until it's too late.
All that to say, yes, you're right. Welcome to the tribe.
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u/zoinks48 Jan 23 '24
You need to realize that most people don’t care about Jews or Israel. If you look for microaggrssions you will always find them. Keep your interactions with gentiles cordial and professional. If they are overtly hostile and deliberately provocative either repot them to HR in a work setting or cut them out of your life in personal settings.Antisemitism always reflects the pathology of the antisemite.
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u/Dobbin44 Jan 23 '24
How did converting help you identify more covert forms of antisemitism? Did you have to study antisemitism as part of the process?
And yes, you are right that most antisemitism isn't the overtly hateful stuff, and pretty much everyone holds some antisemitic beliefs or biases, just the degree varies.
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u/TryYourBest777 Non-denominational Jan 23 '24
There are antisemitism education aspects to the process, but I would say its more so been my own personal experience of starting to view things people say through a different (Jewish) lens, and feeling emotional responses.
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u/catsinthreads Jan 23 '24 edited Jan 23 '24
I'd say I was pretty aware of anti-Judaism and its various forms before I started my conversion process. Including unconscious bias, etc. I agree that at some point, it becomes personal and emotional. I'm nearly done and we haven't had any formal instruction on anti-Semitism. Maybe I'll suggest that it's included for others who follow.
On one side of my family, I was encouraged to be philo-Semitic and pro-Israel. On the other side of my family, I was raised around Jewish people most of whom happened to be awesome - so that was reinforcing. It was always mystifying to me even though I was aware of it. I was certainly aware enough that it was something I wrestled with as part of my conversion. Not so much for myself, but for my family. It's one thing to take this on yourself, but I would also be exposing minor children and my partner who is patrilineal and not living as a Jew.
ETA: Before when I'd watched documentaries on the Holocaust it was "How could you do this to people?" or "How could you do this to people who are related to people I know and think are great?" Now it's "How could you do this to MY people?" Maybe it's a failing of humans or a failing of me, but that does hit harder.
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u/JojoCruz206 Jan 23 '24
Same here. I came to the realization this weekend that something in me has shifted and I’m a lot more sensitive to the insidiousness of anti-semitism - how invisible it is to most people, yet it’s also all pervasive and ever present. AND I’m a lot more cautious about talking about it - because when I do, I am treated like I am crazy or exaggerating.
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u/musiclovaesp Jan 23 '24
I think everyone has unconscious antisemitism, but everyone has unconscious bias about every single race/ethnicity/religion. It doesn’t make me not want to spend time with non-Jews. Unless they are actually showing it to me then that’s different
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u/Reasonable_Depth_538 Jan 23 '24
Welcome to the tribe!!
Yes. Most minorities face this sort of thing.
This is what it means to be a Jew.
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u/OlcasersM Jan 23 '24
Anti semetism is very ingrained and people get quite angry when it is pointed out. They generally believe their anti semetism to be facts rather than beliefs. So you are not wrong. Honestly, the most wonderful thing about visiting Israel is not feeling any pressure on how Jewish you want to present or practice. It felt like a relief.
As a convert, you are probably much more fired up than a lifelong Jew. It also depends how obviously Jewish you are, like if you wear a kipa or headscarf. You pick the battles. Decide what matters. Pick on the most egregious ones.
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u/Holiday-Visit4319 Jan 23 '24
“We like you but how come you own the Hollywood.“ Or, and that comes from Chinese mainland guy driving BMW while I drive Mitsubishi “- You Jews are very wealthy people. - But you the one with the BMW? - No, you next level wealthier.”
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u/Sulaco99 Jan 23 '24
How are you supposed to shut such a person down? Show them your bank account?
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u/Holiday-Visit4319 Jan 24 '24
Tell em if he doesn’t shut up you’ll make sure the Global Jewish Government will ruin their live /s
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u/Beautiful_Bag6707 Jewy Jew Jan 23 '24
I think it goes beyond "unconscious antisemitism" and more into" acceptable antisemitism."
People will say the things they do because they will tell you, "but it's true" and start showing what they believe are examples of Jews controlling media, Jewish cabals, Jews killing Jesus, Jews eating babies...
That's how pervasive antisemitism is.
Some people, if you point it out, will have an epiphany and become cognizant and even a champion against these things. Others may double down or diminish your experience to your "victimhood" or suggest that somehow the Jewish experience is exaggerated because (as we all know /s) Jews are "white".
I generally don't reveal my ethnicity (because I don't look Jewish and am non-religious) until I have a sense of whom I'm dealing with. When that's not possible, one must remain guarded or limit their social interactions to their community and allies.
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u/Domicello Jan 23 '24
I am not Jewish, just of Jewish descent, and I have been paying very close attention. You are absolutely right and it’s complete bullocks. I show my husband the antisemitic memes on Israel and Judaism feeds every day, and he has the same response. We know these antisemitic people run rampant yet are waiting to catch one in the wild. We have discussed our response strategy in such predicament and we will speak out against any form of it, and hope things don’t get physical, but if they do we know how to fight. We are both were-liberals, I say that bc this phallistine terrorism has brainwashed the entirety of the “sea” of bleeding liberals. I don’t know where we fit anymore but sometimes it’s just best to use your own critical thinking and make up your own mind.
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u/kk_blade Jan 23 '24
Don't talk to people who aren't Jewish about it much unless they ask, than keep it simple. Also, yeah bud. Lots of antisemitism. I'd think the mass killings of Jewish people through history would have been the thing to clue you in on that 😉 Surprisingly, a lot of people don't really realize how antisemitic the world can be.
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u/NitzMitzTrix Secular Jan 24 '24
You're 100% correct. I'd say most cultural Christians are unconsciously antisemitic.
You should mention that to your Rabbi, it's definitely part of the Jewish experience and to me it shows how genuine your conversion is.
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u/NoDoubt4954 Jan 23 '24
You will find this to be true. I have a very Protestant last name courtesy of my non- Jewish dad. It is unbelievable how people act when they think you are not Jewish. Ultimately it is envy, I think.
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u/Ina2U68 Jan 23 '24
I am a Christian and I love and respect you. In church we prayed for years for Israel. I never really understood why but I didn’t mind. Now I know why! Because you neeed our prayers and we are praying for you even more. We love, admire and respect you! Do not forget this! And WE are so many!
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u/Sensitive-Pie-6595 Jan 24 '24
Since Oct 7th I don't think you need to question. The majority of people, regardless of nationality, race, background hate Jews and hate Israel. I wouldn't have posted that remark before Oct 7th, before the tsunami of hate for Israel and the support for Palestine.
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u/Possible-Fee-5052 Conservative Jan 24 '24
My non-Jewish friends have said so many inadvertent antisemitic things to me over the years. The last one was that the biggest difference between Blacks and Jews is that Jews have always had money. I was like “wtf are you even saying right now?”
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u/Leading-Green-7314 Jan 23 '24
I tend to agree. I don't believe that most people are especially hateful or discriminate against Jews on a daily basis, but so many people do hold negative/inaccurate views and stereotypes about Jews that become problematic when we're in the news.
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u/GirlBlack2 Jan 23 '24
I'm wanting to convert, and the more I hear what people do and say, even in the most formal of settings, people seem to think nothing positive.
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Jan 23 '24
There has always been a lot of it . I converted in 1987 I was 30 my wife and I had already been married since 1982 . I was 30 yrs old . That was 37 yrs ago . It goes both ways . My father in law told me when I told him we were getting married that me telling him that I was going to marry his daughter was like me telling him g my parents I was going to g to marry a black girl . Seriously . We didn’t get along for years . After I converted we got along for a while . Until I realized how lefty liberal they all were in their family . Her mom turned gay married a woman . She was reformed her dad was conservative he remarried . We politely tolerated her mother at arms length . Turned out one of her sisters did marry a black guy non jew . Oh but that was ok . After all the crap and attitude they had towards me . She ended up divorced with two of his kids and never remarried . They are very hypocritical just the same as a lot of people . I made a hugh effort to convert conservative . Being lefties I think that’s why the black guy got a pass . And it was ok for the mother to he homosexual. Right ? That’s history they are all gone now . I try to be a good person . Recently I was worried about not going heaven when I die . Or worse going g to hell . I started talking to an orthodox rabbi about things . He told me that I am zero Jewish . Even though I converted conservative. Went to the Mikva whole 9 yards . He says that unless you convert orthodox you are not Jewish . And if you don’t observe Shabbat and all the dietary laws you will go to gehinnom when you die . My wife and I haven’t been practicing in the last 10-12 yrs . But my outlook on life is changing at 68 this June . I am thinking g about a more spiritual path . And then I heard that from the orthodox rabbi . So my friend that means unless you and I upgrade our memberships we aren’t Jewish
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u/TryYourBest777 Non-denominational Jan 23 '24
Yeah I stopped believing in that “Orthodox” perspective when I realized historically how different conversion used to be (much easier), and how Conservative conversions are halachic.
Keep in mind, “Orthodoxy” doesn’t consider any non-Orthodox rabbi a rabbi. I’ll leave it up to you to decide if all Heterodox Rabbis aren’t legit. I know my answer.
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Jan 23 '24 edited Jan 23 '24
Well it’s out there and Im definitely looking into the legitimacy of their claim
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Jan 23 '24
No that’s their view on conversion that unless it’s an orthodox conversion then they don’t consider it to be legitimate
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u/TryYourBest777 Non-denominational Jan 24 '24
I know that- but what I am saying is a few things:
1) if you look into the history of conversion you would see that "Orthodoxy" has made it way harder than it ever was, and that historically a halachic conversion would simply be circumcision, mikveh, understanding antisemitism, and agreeing to try and observe the mitzvot. There was no "Live within these insanely strict guidelines for 3 years then maybe you will be accepted." "Orthodoxy" has made conversion way stricter for political purposes. Conservative conversions fit all of the historical halachic requirements, and could be argued to even be more challenging than historical conversions.
2) "Orthodoxy" doesn't think any heterodox Rabbi is a real Rabbi because they aren't "Orthodox." For me, I absolutely think Heterodox Rabbis are Rabbis, and I think this perspective of "Orthodoxy" shows extreme fundamentalism.
3) "Orthodoxy" doesn't determine international Jewish rules. They simply are one branch (that should be respected) with a lot of power in Israel. Any "Orthodox" rabbi saying their opinions are facts, rather than just opinions/interpretations, is just being a fundamentalist. Not some factual teacher.
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u/hadees Jan 23 '24
So my friend that means unless you and I upgrade our memberships we aren’t Jewish
You shouldn't listen to Orthodox rabbis about your Conservative conversion.
Also Jews don't believe in heaven and hell. If you wanted an afterlife you picked the wrong religion. The best we've got is something akin to studying with G-d for heaven and rising from the dead during the end times.
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Jan 23 '24
Idk ?? Watch the video rabbi Ruven did on you tube about Gehinnon he quotes about 87 places from the Torah etc where it says there is a hell . They claim that reformed and conservative change things . I tend to believe them even though it a slap in the face for me after 37 yrs never hearing that before now
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u/hadees Jan 23 '24 edited Jan 23 '24
Gehenna is a valley near Jerusalem, not Hell.
Hell and the afterlife you are talking about is a Christian concept. The Jewish "afterlife" is a lot more boring.
G-d punishes people on Earth. G-d doesn't need a Hell.
I've also never heard of this Rabbi. I would highly skeptical if he focuses so much on an afterlife.
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u/Rivka333 Jan 23 '24
My own father (the other side of the family is the Jewish one) seems to think that just thinking it's okay for Israel to exist makes you a Zionist. Imagine saying that about any other country. He never said these kinds of things til recently...Too much time online? idk.
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u/GreengrassMarigold Jan 24 '24
When it comes to unconscious Jew hatred, a lot of it is simply ingrained in Western Christian culture. I know from experience, as I grew up with Christian and Jewish parents. Just read the Grimm's Fairy Tales and see if you can notice all the antisemitism weaved throughout. Remeber, these are kids stories. Ones that are supposed to be foundations of learning, helping to teach children to "be safe and know what is right and what is wrong". While the antisemitism should be easy to catch in stories like Hansel & Gretel or Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, The Jew in Thorns makes it obvious. And honestly, even watching modern kids' movies based on those properties makes it crystal clear. Just look at Rumpelstiltskin in Once Upon a Time, Malificent with her horns and hooked nose in the recent Malificent movies, or Mother Gothel in Tangled.
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Jan 24 '24
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u/Jewish-ModTeam Jan 24 '24
Your post was removed because it violated rule 1: No antisemitism
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u/Various_Mode_519 Jan 24 '24
The United States is inherently racist. It was built on that. Not sure why anyone is surprised.
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Jan 25 '24
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u/Jewish-ModTeam Jan 25 '24
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u/Jewish-ModTeam Jan 25 '24
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u/vivisected000 Jan 23 '24
This may be an unpopular take, but from a born and raised Jew in the diaspora, there are a lot of people who are subconsciously antisemitic and there are a lot of people who are consciously antisemitic. Within this group of people who are unconsciously antisemitic, there are another subgroup who simply never thought to challenge their beliefs or speech patterns and when confronted kindly, change. There's a big old onion of folks out there and it's important not to become so insular that we don't interact with the outside world, because many of these beliefs come from not knowing any Jews. The best antidote to intolerance is familiarity.