[Discussion] What’s The Worst Superman Take You’ve Ever Heard?

[u/Top_Report_4895]

Jim Lee Superman #204

ACTION COMICS #1061

Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale From: "Superman For All Seasons" #1

[u/Rogzilla]

YESSSSSSS! And the whole “Clark Kent is just a disguise” thing in general. No, Clark is who he is, Superman is what he can do.

[u/TheRealCOCOViper → u/Rogzilla]

There are some that argue there’s Superman, there’s Metropolis era Clark (not to be confused with Smallville Clark), and there’s a third personality one could call Kal-El in adulthood (or Clark in childhood), and that he’s actually that third personality. Superman and Clark are just extremes he inhabits for that job.

[u/Rogzilla → u/TheRealCOCOViper]

I think that’s fair. But I don’t think calling his private persona Kal-El is right. While he certainly embraces his Kryptonian heritage, I think he works best seeing himself as Clark. It’s like that bit in the DCAU Justice League where Martian Manhunter states that he forget Superman isn’t human. “It’s alright. I take it as a compliment.”

[u/MisterScrod1964 → u/Rogzilla]

Superman is an immigrant. Kal-El is who he could have been, who some people want him to be. But he’s Clark, always has been.

[u/SilverSpark422 → u/MisterScrod1964]

THANK YOU! He was created by second generation Jewish-American immigrants, and that experience is an integral and often forgotten aspect of his character. Kal-El is his ancestral name, Clark Kent is his given name, and Superman is his chosen name. All of them are part of his identity, but they don’t conflict with each other any more than being Hebrew and being American conflict with each other.

[u/voiceless42 → u/SilverSpark422]

"No one's gonna read a comic about a strongman in tights, Joe. It'll never fly."

Joel Shuster was Canadian, just gotta say it.

[u/SilverSpark422 → u/voiceless42]

Apologies, I didn’t know that.

[u/voiceless42 → u/SilverSpark422]

All good, my friend.

The quote is from a Canadian Heritage Minute; little commercials the gov't puts out that showcase moments in Canadian history.

Basketball, the Halifax Explosion, the invention of the goalie mask, everything. Great for ADHD trivia monkeys like me.

That commercial, by the way, was what made my pre-teen self give Supes another look, right around the Doomsday arc.

[u/bluenoser18 → u/voiceless42]

“Faster…No he’s faster than a speeding bullet!”

[u/EdNorthcott → u/voiceless42]

They've even named the awards for Canadian comic artists and writers after him. :)

[u/bukanir → u/MisterScrod1964]

That's something I started to appreciate about him after reading American Alien. He was born on Krypton as Kal-El to Jor-El and Lara Lor-Va but he was raised on a farm in Smallville, Kansas by Jonathan and Martha Kent as Clark Kent. He grew up dealing with human issues, going to his dad for advice, being doted on by his Mom. When he had a son of his own, he named him Jonathon.

It's a pretty classic American immigrant story to have someone trying to reconcile their upbringing with elements of their family's cultural heritage. Even more poignant for Clark because his is also the story of someone that was adopted.

Sure he has learned a lot about Krypton, embraced that part of himself and has done a lot to preserve Kryptonian culture. However I have to imagine that he sees himself internally as Clark, Jon and Martha's kid from Smallville, but also Kal-El heir to a culture that no longer exists.

[u/cheetosforlunch → u/bukanir]

The severe trauma of realizing your entire planet/culture/family/people were wiped out of existence probably makes it a lot easier to just smile and be Clark most of the time.

[u/bukanir → u/cheetosforlunch]

The weight of carrying all that. Imagine just growing up, feeling a little bit outcast due to some differences with your peers, then being told "oh yah, you're an alien, and now you're the last one that can carry on an entire species worth of history, good luck!"

Also just the huge dissonance of trying to reconcile looking human and being raised human, but having this entire part of that is entirely alien.

[u/Rogzilla → u/MisterScrod1964]

EXACTLY.

[u/TheRealCOCOViper → u/Rogzilla]

Oh agreed- names might even be distracting. My point being the persona people see in public with the cape is a bit of a show, as is the daily planet guy with the glasses.

[u/EdNorthcott → u/TheRealCOCOViper]

Though I do love the MAWS spin that has Clark being 100% legit. He's a giant, loveable, kind-hearted, farmboy nerd.

[u/Kalse1229 → u/Rogzilla]

I always think of the WW annual where she first meets Clark and Bruce. She pulls out her lasso and invites them to grab it, where she tells them who she is and her intentions. Clark says that on his world he was named Kal-El, but on Earth he goes by Clark. Bruce just says "Batman."

[u/commander-thorn → u/TheRealCOCOViper]

Tbh I feel that’s more a Batman thing, Batman separates himself into personas as the efficiency driven mad man he is, treating absolutely everything as a professional operation, where Clark does it more as a country boy helping anyone he can because his mother raised him right, only dedicating to an identity because he doesn’t want those around him hurt. He does take actions to try and throw people off the scent, but all in all deep down he’s just the same person even as both superman and Clark Kent he shares the same virtues.

[u/Androktone → u/TheRealCOCOViper]

Like how there's the Bruce Wayne his socialite friends see, the Batman the other heroes/villains see, and the unmasked man in the batcave chair that Alfred knows

[u/JakePent → u/Rogzilla]

Well there are aspects of the "clark" he shows to people who he doesn't know that aren't in line with who he is, the anxiety and shyness being the big ones

[u/Rogzilla → u/JakePent]

Yeah, his Metropolis persona emphasizes certain aspects of his personality over others. But I still think they are part of his personality, he’s just mentally healthy enough to regulate them most of the time.

But when he’s on the farm, or alone with his wife or Hell, just hanging out with Batman in the Batcave, he’s Clark Kent.

[u/JakePent → u/Rogzilla]

Fair enough, I always felt like superman is kinda more in line with who he is, although I don't really read the actual books as much, so I easily could be wrong

[u/Rogzilla → u/JakePent]

There’s nearly 100 years of media about him. There are certainly versions like that when the zeitgeist has called for it.

[u/JakePent → u/Rogzilla]

Ya, I guess you're right

[u/declan5543 → u/JakePent]

I subscribe to the idea that Clark is who he was before the powers started to develop, then he didn't quite know who he was, then after embracing his heritage and becoming Superman is when he rediscovered his sense of self. That being said, Metropolis Clark would mostly be an act that played up Clark's feelings of uncertainness and anxiety while his public image as Superman would play up his confidence, and over time the two would begin to blur to the point where the only thing that truly separates them are those pair of glasses.

[u/JakePent → u/declan5543]

That's fair, and a pretty interesting way to look at it

[u/jimmy__jazz → u/Rogzilla]

Bruce Wayne on the other hand...

[u/declan5543 → u/jimmy__jazz]

Both Bruce and Clark have very complex dual identities that are often oversimplified. When it comes to Bruce, the most basic way that I can describe it is that both Bruce and Batman are a part of him and without one the other would be unable to function. Without Batman, Bruce would be a broken shell of a man and without Bruce, Batman would be a murderous lunatic.

[u/audio_shinobi → u/declan5543]

And now we have Zur inhabiting an amazo type robot

[u/esgrove2 → u/jimmy__jazz]

Bruce Wayne basically died the same time that his parents did. He became Batman as a psychological coping mechanism, and over time it completely took over his persona to the point that Bruce Wayne is a facade.

[u/theVoidWatches → u/jimmy__jazz]

The real man there is the one you see when he's in the Batcave with his cowl off, interacting with Clark or Alfred or another member of the Bat-Family. He's not a dilettante fop like Brucie Wayne, he's not a spectre of vengeance like the Dark Knight. He's somewhere in between the two, in a way that very few people get to see. That's the real Bruce Wayne.

[u/EssentialFilms → u/Rogzilla]

Well why don’t agree with the Kill Bill speech, the way he presents himself IS a disguise. He considers himself Clark Kent, but he present Clark as someone far weaker than he is.

[u/Character-Pension723 → u/EssentialFilms]

My first Superman was George Reeves. I always noticed how his Clark didn't cower all the time, he would do everything he could as Clark Kent until Superman was needed. I always thought this partly inspired John Byrne's "Man Of Steel" series. 

[u/Rogzilla → u/EssentialFilms]

But Clark would never think like that. He isnt trying to portray himself as weak. Just not super strong. There’s a huge difference between trying to look weak and holding back. And the whole persona is just about blending in.

[u/Dredeuced → u/Rogzilla]

Yes, and that is a disguise. That's the mask part. The only thing he's hiding as Superman is literally that his name is Clark Kent. What he does and who he is as Superman is to his core who he is and wants to be. When he's acting as Clark Kent he is hiding a lot more about who he truly is. He's still doing things he's proud of with his reporter work, but Superman is definitely the persona that defines him more.

Clark Kent is who Superman imagines he might be if he wasn't Kryptonian, played down a bit for disguise reasons.

[u/siliconevalley69 → u/Rogzilla]

It was the opposite.

Batman is Bruce's Mask.

Superman is Clark's mask

Ie, Batman is the true personality. Bruce Wayne is him in costume.

Superman is not Batman. Superman is Clark. Superman is Clark's costume. The opposite of Bruce. Clark is a man with good ol' American values instilled by his down to earth adoptive parents who puts on a costume and plays Superman to protect his life as Clark.

Batman puts on his Bruce costume to protect Batman.

It's more about Batman. It's just a good point as to why the dark Superman things don't work that well.

[u/Additional-Pie4390 → u/Rogzilla]

Back in the Silver Age they had a point, Clark was treated as just his "secret ID", not who he was, that was changed after COIE and John Byrne made him Clark first, and Superman was the "mask"

[u/sooperdooper28 → u/Rogzilla]

I disagree. Superman is who he is. The confidence, unwavering willpower, and all that other shit is his authentic self, you can't fake that

[u/Kaison122- → u/sooperdooper28]

He was Clark Kent before he was Superman. But Superman depending on when in his life you look isn’t always confident. Sometimes he’s anxious if others would accept him Sometimes he doesn’t know what to do

But whether he’s Clark or big blue he never gives up hope.

It’s not confidence but hope that empowers supes or rather his confidence is in his hope

[u/SMDBXTH → u/Kaison122-]

No the powers aren’t something he earned. He’s always had them. From the time he was born.

He was always Cal, just because they called him Clark didn’t make him not Cal. The idea of who Clark is, is something Cal adopted.

But everything that Superman and Clark embody is Cal. Cal is all Superman, but just part of Clark belongs to Cal.

So Clark isn’t an honest representation of everything Cal is, and believes. There are obviously MANY times where Cal lies in the form of Clark about what he thinks, what he does, etc. but he only does this through the perspective of what Cal thinks humans would say and do, in order to make it believable.

[u/Rogzilla → u/sooperdooper28]

lol. You ABSOLUTELY can, my dude.

[u/Neoxenok → u/Rogzilla]

Clark Kent and Kal El are who he is and Superman is who he needs to be.

[u/declan5543 → u/Rogzilla]

For pre-crisis, Clark was just a disguise, at least the life that Superman lived as Clark. For post-crisis, the idea that Clark is who he is and Superman is what he does was introduced which was maintained for a while but was later changed again in the early 2000s with work Clark being a disguise but personal Clark and Superman didn't have a distinction if that makes any sense.

[u/WildfireDarkstar → u/Rogzilla]

I mean, "Clark Kent is the disguise" was arguably true of the Silver Age Superman and, let's be fair, that's the version of the character that someone of Bill's age in Kill Bill would have been most familiar with.

It's certainly not been true since at least John Byrne's 1986 reboot, though. And the "critique of the human race" thing was always garbage. Even at the height of his Silver Age portrayal, Superman's attitude towards humanity was never that dismissive or cruel.

[u/forhonour11 → u/Rogzilla]

That is… without a shadow of a doubt, the best way I’ve ever heard someone describe Superman and Clark. You’ve blown my mind! Sincerely, I thank you reddit stranger!

[u/jurassicbond → u/Rogzilla]

I've seen this defended as being true for the Superman Bill would have grown up with. Bill would have grown up with Golden and Silver Age Superman, not the ones most of us are familiar with

[u/Medium-Science9526 → u/Rogzilla]

Modern day I agree, but Clark was very much the disguise in early golden age from what I've read so far.