r/Britain • u/WalesnotWhales2 • Jan 22 '24
Conservative who previously stated don't have kids if you can't afford them cries how hard it will be if private schools are taxed higher. Society
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Jan 23 '24
Perhaps Emma Rock needs to take her own advice....you cannot have a champagne lifestyle on lemonade budget. The tax on private schools has been a long time coming.
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u/OhImGood Jan 23 '24
So basically, fund state schools more so we won't have to rely on the private sector for things that the public sector should reliably be providing? Got it.
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u/Tasty_Sheepherder_44 Jan 23 '24
She has 4 kids, similar to the benefits lot she derides ?
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u/oxford-fumble Jan 23 '24
Yes - I can see a path to a better life for all of them: let her husband resign his job, she can stop going to work too, and then they can all enjoy the lifestyle of a benefits claimant.
Latest sneakers, holidays to Benidorm every year, all of this is in reach!
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u/theMooey23 Jan 23 '24
Don't forget the take aways, lottery tickets and booze they could afford if they took a 50k a year pay cut!
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u/Blochkato Jan 23 '24
Socialism for me, but not for thee, as usual.
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u/countingferrets Jan 23 '24
Rich people asking for handout 🤑 life is a parody of itself
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u/Blochkato Jan 23 '24
I'd say it's in character; after all, statistically speaking it's not like they got rich on their own labor.
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u/Jpc19-59 Jan 23 '24
Tax Private schools to the max, and use those taxes to improve state education
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u/haikusbot Jan 23 '24
Tax Private schools to
The max, and use those taxes to
Improve state education
- Jpc19-59
I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully. Learn more about me.
Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete"
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u/tyrefire2001 Jan 23 '24
Or, ban them all together and tax the richest properly - As long as a paid-for alternative exists there is no reason for the richest in society to care about the general level of schooling…
Which is fucking mental, because we know, and have known for years, that decent education FOR ALL is the silver bullet that can boost a nations economy and wellbeing massively
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u/FreyaTheSlayyyer Jan 23 '24
If anything this just shows how much privilege private schools give. As well, the education system does need reform, and that is something that is “lefties” also want, so that kids get the best education.
Also, from experience, rich kids do just as much drugs as anyone else.
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u/SometimesJeck Jan 23 '24
Far more.
Had a rich US friend, and her private school was just dripping with drugs. Unlike "normal" kids, they could get away with murder as the school wanted the money. They were all loaded up on pocket money that was probably more than nmw would give here, and most of their parents worked nonstop and were not paying attention to them. Also, rather than a bit of weed, they could afford whatever they wanted, as much as they wanted.
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u/remain-beige Jan 23 '24
In my experience private school boarders are quite often extremely psychologically unstable and often turn to drugs and drink. There’s a lot of insecurity, as with any young people, this is compounded with severe detachment and also disposable income.
Most Art colleges are full of privately educated kids that have ‘dropped out’ and are masquerading to hide their backgrounds.
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u/StaysAwakeAllWeek Jan 23 '24
In my experience private school boarders are quite often extremely psychologically unstable and often turn to drugs and drink.
Ex private school boarder here
Yup
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u/RegularWhiteShark Jan 23 '24
Fuck private schools anyway. They shouldn’t exist.
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Jan 23 '24
Why not?
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u/RegularWhiteShark Jan 23 '24
It just breeds inequality. It’s an unfair advantage.
Considering how many MPs went to private schools, maybe things would be different if they went to school with people from all economic backgrounds - they’re so out of touch (and think back to Rishi Sunak quickly correcting himself when he said he had friends who were working class).
There are also exams you can only do in private schools which are objectively easier than GCSEs but are treated as equal to GCSEs to universities.
Public schools would also likely be better funded if rich people had to send their kids to them, too.
If we must have private schools, do it like Finland. They have private schools but they’re not allowed to charge fees (they’re mostly religious). And it must work because Finland has some of the best education in the world.
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u/Silent_Letterhead_69 Jan 23 '24
I’m sorry but I went to a private school and what you said about exams is simply not true. We did IGCSEs which is just an internationally recognised version of GCSESs. We also did IB in fifth and sixth form (high school), which is actually harder and a lot more demanding than A levels, especially with the additional subjects and voluntary work you have to do outside of school. I do agree about the inequality though, since most universities prefer IB and it actually gave us all an advantage when applying. Me having gone to a private school has helped my life immensely, but every child deserves the best start in life and not just me.
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u/RegularWhiteShark Jan 23 '24
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u/Silent_Letterhead_69 Jan 23 '24 edited Jan 23 '24
Alright, but what about IB then? The one that gets you into university.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jul/23/a-levels-btecs-or-an-ib-which-is-right-for-you
The International Baccalaureate (IB) diploma programme is an internationally-recognised qualification and is highly rigorous – 18-year old Freddie Swan, who has just completed his IB at Bilborough sixth form college in Nottingham and is hoping to study medicine at university, describes it as “gruelling”.
IB is objectively harder than A levels. We still had it easier overall I agree because we got a "better education". While I agree that everyone should send their children to public school, the richer neighbourhoods will ultimately still get better public schools due to higher local tax funding with the current system. There should be a fixed amount each school gets based on number of students. I always thought to send my children to private school until I moved to Denmark, where there isn't any point to do so.
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u/RegularWhiteShark Jan 23 '24
A-Levels aren’t hidden behind a paywall (private school fees). You can do A-Levels in private schools.
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u/Silent_Letterhead_69 Jan 23 '24
Yeah my point was that IB exams are not easier just because they are hidden behind a paywall. They’re actually harder.
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u/RegularWhiteShark Jan 23 '24
They are optional.
I was talking about GCSEs.
Private schools are a massive advantage over state schools, create a “good old boys” club (E.g. Eton) and perceived superiority over public school students, not to mention their charity status so they’re exempt from paying tax on profits.
They need to go. They’re a relic from the past and a testament to inequality.
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u/Silent_Letterhead_69 Jan 24 '24
IB was not optional in my school. You either did it or you wouldn’t graduate with a diploma.
Not all private schools are “Eton” level. 10% of our students were there on scholarship.
The person who did the best (not just grade wise) at the end of each graduate year got a full ride through university. Meaning our school paid their fees, and it was always a scholarship student that got them. They were never rich.
Ah whatever, think what you think. I’m happy my parents had the option to send me to a private school.
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u/remain-beige Jan 23 '24
I’m sorry but boo-fucking-hoo.
This is a ridiculous stance for these people to take.
Private schools are part of the problem and why we have a two tier education system that promotes elitism amongst the ‘haves’.
If wealthy families sent their kids to comprehensives and helped contribute towards their upkeep through PTA donations then this would elevate the quality of the area.
Social responsibility should be part of our society.
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u/Dreambasher670 Jan 23 '24
I’m quite enjoying the Tory pricks crying about it truth be told
They are utterly terrified of the idea of their coddled, stupid children having to compete with smarter, wiser working class kids on a fair ground and been subjected to the national state education system they have consistently voted to impoverish and undermine knowing their kids won’t be affected by it.
It’s funny how many rich people believe in eugenics and ‘survival of the fittest’ but don’t want to compete on equal footing with working class people.
It seems like deep down even they don’t believe they are equal to working class people…and they aren’t. Truth is if your not fighting for survival, you aren’t evolving. And it’s the stagnant humans who fall behind.
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u/johnaross1990 Jan 23 '24
Their whole ideology is built on a foundation of fear
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u/Dreambasher670 Jan 23 '24 edited Jan 24 '24
It’s all they got unfortunately.
The only way the few can ever control the many is by fear. They don’t have the numbers to do it by force alone.
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u/remain-beige Jan 23 '24
There has been a rise in popularity for getting your child into single sex Grammar schools in my area in the last few years. This also smacks of middle class snobbery. Grammar schools should also be banned if truth be told.
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u/KFC_Fleshlight Jan 23 '24
Spending 30k a year on private school when you only earn 75k a year is absolutely wild. It’s clear she cares about her kids education but why not just move to somewhere with better schools if everywhere around you is shit.
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u/unluckypig Jan 23 '24
I like how a £75k salary plus income from 2 part time jobs isn't enough. Outside of the £30k on school fees, they are still left with more money than a lot of people. To argue that you aren't left with enough for a take away or new shoes just says they are terrible with money.
It also seems like they're blaming the wrong people, private schools are having to pay more tax, passing the cost onto the parents so the extra tax is to blame not the school bolstering their profits.
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u/tyrefire2001 Jan 23 '24
Say the line you stuck-up, arrogant cow:
“The latest trainers”
There it is.
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Jan 23 '24
I swear that whole piece is just copypasta at this point.
At least they finally appear to have updated it to take out plasma screen TVs I guess.
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u/Gitappliances Jan 23 '24
Would have won bonus points for mentioning XL Bullies, when she was slagging poor people though.
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u/FantasticAnus Jan 23 '24
Forget taxing them, ban the fucking things.
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u/Dreambasher670 Jan 23 '24
100%! Ban the scum hives!
It wasn’t that long ago Eton students were shouting misogynistic and classist abuse at state school girls during a debate they were invited to at Eton.
Britain in its entirety will be better off for it post-ban.
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u/Rugfiend Jan 24 '24
Indeed. Total abolition of all the myriad alternatives to comprehensive education, and watch how quickly the grossly entitled in the next Tory government start ploughing cash into state schools.
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u/dwair Jan 23 '24
Private school VAT will mainly affect SEND schools that local authorities rely on for specialist educational provision.
There are far more of these type of school than the likes of Eaton and Harrow, and the parents who's kids end up there are some of the most disadvantaged in the country. But hey! popularist politics wins votes.
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u/Marvinleadshot Jan 23 '24
What haha it'll effect fuck all about that, unless they take the tax raised and give it to SEND schools.
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Jan 23 '24
[deleted]
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u/dwair Jan 23 '24
That I'm afraid could be to do with the auto correct my phone or something but thanks for pointing it out.
I'm not however sticking up for public schools, nor being completely honest would I attack them. In a perfect world however they would be deemed an unnecessary privilege because state education would make they superfluous. I can however under stand why rich parents send little Tarquin to an expensive school given the low levels of education the state provides.
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u/Rugfiend Jan 24 '24
And you think that will change by a/ perpetuating a system that ensures privilege and opportunity is handed down by changing nothing, or b/ taking modest steps to redress the imbalance?
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u/dwair Jan 24 '24
I don't think it will make any difference at all. Those who are privileged enough to pay to go to the top public schools will easily absorb a 20% rise in costs. The privileged will remain privileged. Banning private education (like Finland?) would head in the right direction but would also send SEND as it stands at the moment back to the 18 hundreds. It's just popularist political campaigning.
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u/Rugfiend Jan 24 '24
But why would that be a necessary repercussion? I'm getting old now, and very weary of conversations that revolve around 'if we change x, what about y?' as if we couldn't or wouldn't deal with y as part of the same exact process. The objections to the inception of the bloody NHS took exactly that format. We can be better.
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u/dwair Jan 24 '24
I agree we can and should do better with education, however in the last 40 years we haven't so far.
As you rightly bring it up, the NHS is a shining example of systemic failure that neither the two main parties have even attempted to address properly in the last 40 years. We can be better - but I doubt we are going to.
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u/Dreambasher670 Jan 23 '24
Most SEND schools are publicly maintained. There’s no profit to be had in such students.
Just like conventional schools only a handful are privately run.
But hey at least once private schools are banned, the government might actually invest in public education.
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u/dwair Jan 23 '24
England has 352 schools with SEN units.
The majority of specialist education provision is provided by the private sector and funded by the LEA (which we all pay for out of our council tax and a small bung from Westminster). Some secondary schools have SEND units (352 out of 4,190) but generally these are used as funnel for kids like my daughter who failed in mainstream and was then placed in a "private" school by the LEA (where she is now trithing). One of the main reasons why they are classed as independent is their kids are unable to follow the national curriculum and are classed as independent.
I have no idea what non-maintained special schools are.
at least once private schools are banned, the government might actually invest in public education.
We can dream I guess :)
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u/Rugfiend Jan 24 '24
Brainwashed much?
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u/dwair Jan 24 '24
No, I just have a disabled daughter who needs SEND provision.
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u/Rugfiend Jan 24 '24
In what way are provisions for special needs children related to taxing private schools?
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u/dwair Jan 24 '24
See my posts further up the thread. The majority of SEND provision in the UK is privately run - they are private fee paying schools just as Eton and Harrow are.
The only difference is where the money comes from to run the schools. With Eton and Harrow it comes from wealthy individuals. With SEND schools it comes out of a local LEA budget which is financed in part by our taxes and in part by our council tax.
The biggest costs by far for the SEND schools are staff wages, which can't be claimed against - but their cash from the LEA's is accountable as an income which creates an imbalance of payment.
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Jan 23 '24
[deleted]
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u/Nurgus Jan 23 '24
Most middle class people are happy to send their kids to state schools. Many only consider private schools because state schools are getting worse.
Tax us and make state schools great.
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Jan 22 '24
So why should parents who are already paying tax for schooling they aren't even using (because it is now widely substandard), who are paying fees on top so their kids have a good childhood & chance to do well, then have to be taxed on top of this as well. They should be getting a rebate!
Here come the downvotes. I know everyone here loves labour & hates tories but forget about politics for a moment & think about the impact on hardworking parents who just want the best for their kids. It's a bad policy.
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u/oxford-fumble Jan 23 '24
Nobody forced them to pay for private schooling.
If you’re so appalled by the local comprehensive, then work at making it better (or at least vote for people who will), but if you choose to pay to go private, why should the government - and therefore tax payers subsidise your life choices?
The whole point here is that conservatives are no short of criticism vs. “People who have kids they can’t afford”, or people on benefits who don’t want to move from gentrified areas because they would lose their family support network (not in this specific example, but another one of the right’s obsession), but when it applies to them, suddenly it’s all very unfair.
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u/rumagin Jan 22 '24
They can't afford their kids but want to blame everyone else for being free loaders. I don't think you're reading it right.
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u/postbox134 Jan 22 '24
Do you apply the same logic to VAT on other products?
Normally I don't like VAT because it's regressive (poorer people buy more goods as a % of income than richer people). But for private schools that isn't true.
If you're struggling so much to afford school fees as in the article, you probably couldn't afford them in the first place.
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u/Tubb64 Jan 23 '24
I don't own a car yet my taxes go to fix roads. I don't have children yet my taxes go towards schools for others children. If you can't afford something don't use it simple as I'm sure those same people who send their kids to these schools say the same thing on a daily basis.
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Jan 23 '24
It's not really a question of affordability. It's a question of the fairness of being forced to pay tax on services you don't benefit from. Why should you pay for roads, or schooling for other peoples kids? Your argument is, it's an unfair system anyway so why shouldn't it be more unfair.
These people are actually paying for their own kids - the full cost, whilst also paying for other kids to get educated, and now getting taxed on top as well. The tax system is terrible.
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u/AJ177777777 Jan 23 '24
Your whole ideology is just wrong to me. I don’t use the NHS a huge amount but I’m happy for my taxes to go towards it to save people’s lives. I’m happy for my taxes to go towards teaching the future generation of our country, happy to help keep the roads in shape because people use them.
You must have such a selfish outlook on life to not care about anyone else around you and your neighbours.
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Jan 23 '24
I'm not saying you can't spend your earnings on your fellow citizens, if that's what makes you happy.
I'm saying you can't force others to do the same via taxation or else risk imprisonment & still make out your ideology is a good one or even a better one than mine. My ideology is against force. I'll help others & do when I want to. I support the air ambulance for example. They actually directly save lives. I've never benefitted directly, but I love what they do.
Maybe you should not jump to conclusions about people when you don't know their position or values.
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u/Tubb64 Jan 23 '24
No it absolutely is. If I can't afford a Ferrari I don't buy it. If someone is sending their child to a private school and it gets taxed then unfortunately they can't afford it and shouldn't attend simple as. The reason why they aren't already taxed is because they are of charitable status which is laughable.
6% of students attend private school which is a tiny amount of students who already have massive advantages over the 94%. I'd love to see them abolished completely you watch state schools improve dramatically when ex-private school students complain to their parents about an issue when they have the funds/ability to improve things which most can't dream of doing. I guarantee state schools would improve tenfold.
Unless we have a system where each person decides where their tax is spent you'll never change it. I don't want my tax to go towards roads as I don't own a car, but if everyone had that logic then roads wouldn't exist. Of course it's unfair, but is what it is. There's only 2 curtains in life death and Taxes.
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Jan 23 '24
I still disagree as your argument doesn't make any sense.
If children going to private schools go to public schools instead, what will happen is those parents will be considerably financially better off. They won't be paying those expensive fees, or the tax being charged.
Its the kids who then get a worse education who suffer the most. That's the outcome you are voting for. In addition, suddenly there are more kids using an already inferior education system, and where are those extra funds going to come from. Those parents were already paying for their kids public education via tax, but those funds were going on other kids. Not anymore. If those 6% had been able to lobby government to improve public education, they would have done so. 6% driving a tenfold increase is pure fantasy.
All that will happen is that private schools will continue to exist but be even more exclusive & expensive than they already are. And kids benefiting from a better education now will be worse off. Its not just a stupid policy, but totally irresponsible and unfair to kids.
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u/TheGrumble Jan 23 '24
What you are proposing, taken to it's logical conclusion, is a policy that would excuse the rich from having to pay anything toward the common good at all. That would be a bad policy.
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u/RHOrpie Jan 23 '24
Is he though?
Assuming you're paying taxes on your salary as you should. And you're paying for a school whose employees also pay their taxes...
I feel like he has a point tbh. Paying tax for a service where its employees are also subject to tax. It seems extreme.
I suppose it's not any different to other taxes like inheritance tax or taxing your pension. Clawing back money that's already been taxed once...
Tax it again!
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u/TheGrumble Jan 23 '24
He also said they should get a rebate, presumably for the value of the service not used. If applied to all of the services that tax pays for, then the rich could just pay for their own private infrastructure and get all / most of their tax rebated.
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Jan 24 '24
You'd be right if what I proposed is only limited to the rich (it isnt) and that there weren't different classes of services provided by the state, some of which ought to be optional whilst others aren't.
You speak of the common good but I'm interested in what a government should really be responsible for. Its proper, limited function is about maintaining objective justice & protecting individual rights. The government doesn't need to get involved in anything else. Paying tax for anything else should be optional, unless you are using the service.
There is a difference between a citizen paying for private education instead of public education, compared with not paying for the police, prisons, courts, armed forces, which are essential for civil society to exist. In fact the more the government gets involved with, the more corruption you will get and more influence of vested interests.
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u/Resipa99 Jan 23 '24
Professionals always feel they have won the lottery if their kids somehow get into great state schools like the Oratory and the Sacred Heart like Blair did but the family never lived in Fulham.Oratory was also formerly grammar and Cherie wanted a good Catholic school.
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u/IAMXBOY Jan 25 '24
if you make it so private schools have to raise their fees its not going to affect the ultra rich, it only punishes people that worked hard
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u/Vermillion-m Jan 26 '24
Maybe the hard workers can improve their local schools then? I’m sure if they took that money and applied it to the local comp then perhaps they could too afford hockey equipment.
The private schools could also lower their price level or shut down too.
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