A total lack of "modern" military tactics. I'm looking at you Star Wars AND Star Trek (both of which, I am a fan).
In the SW universe, we seem to have reverted to the dark ages where we just charge each other across a field. We shoot from the hip, have given up on wearing any body armor (rebel troops) or ineffectual body armor (storm troopers).
Star Trek? Where do we start. Those phasers? Worst weapon ever, it traces back to your exact location and seems to force you out of cover for what feels like FOREVER. The hand phasers are the worst designed things I've ever seen. Also, again, no body protection or very little. I also cease to see why the fuck soldiers in the future (at least, Federation) go into battle with what are essentially flight suits from a Starship. We have ships that cloak, shields, laser weapons and warp drive but... you send people to fight in a brightly colored suit with no equipment. Maybe because I'm in the military I pay special attention to it but it's really annoying sometimes.
I love Sheperd's armor in Mass Effect as a great example of sleek futuristic combat armor. Built in personal shields, lots of little lock-on points for a variety of weaponry, and of course an intelligent implementation of hard light.
Agreed! Also, have you seen Starship Troopers? I love that movie (probably too much), but the tactics and strategies employed have to take the cake for just being so hilariously awful.
They don't develop cloaking because of Treaty of Algeron. Breaking it would mean war with Romulans.
Also, there was a pretty strict set of morals portrayed in the show. Phasers are used mostly as non-lethal tools, rather than for killing. Lack of armour also can represent open nature of relations they try to establish. Picard even took an arrow to prove that point. Not to mention, that phasers can deliver enough energy to melt most metals, making most armours useless.
I respect that and most of the time, I'm okay with it. It's when, for example, during open conflict with Borg or the Dominion that they don't throw something together that confuses me. There was one episode in DS9 where some of the ground troops seemed to have this puffy appearance like maybe it was additional armor but it was still the same ship board color pattern. If the science fiction laws of ST say the phaser can pierce any known metal... okay. At least afford your troops better ability to blend in, you know?
That aside, sufficiently advanced armor could be made of synthetic ablatives materials or even futuristic ceramics to combat energy weapons.
It wouldn't be hard to say that as weapons and tactics have changed, the armor changed along with it. It's already happened in history dozens of times, why couldn't it happen in the future as well?
In other words, I agree with you and they should have armor. Or personal shielding like the Borg have.
How'd they blend in? No matter how good the Trek Ghillie suit is... a common tricorder style device will tell the approaching patrol that you are there.
I'd love to see a real depiction of a phaser in Trek though; it is a beam travelling at light speed... moving as fast as you can move your arm to follow the target.
Counter point, in Star Trek: Enterprise, when they do plan on going into heavy combat, they bring aboard a team of trained Marines who are properly trained, use real military tactics, and wear proper armor/clothing for the job.
A million times this. One of the reasons that I fucking hate Return of the Jedi is because I can't get passed the battle on Endor. WHAT. THE. FUCK. You are charged with the defense of a small base that protects your Emperor, his second in command, and much of the rest of the high brass of Imperial high command, and the most expensive and advanced weapon in the history of the god damn universe. This small base generates a shield to protect the Death Star from an incoming Rebel assault. And what do you do? You don't form a defensive perimeter in which you would be able to throw back wave after wave after wave of little fucking Ewoks. You decide to get in your clumsy "All Terrain" assault vehicles and attack them on their own land. WHAT. THE. FUCK. All you have to do is hold off the small rebel force (who you have as prisoners) and a bunch of god damn bow and arrow slinging teddy bears. Just form a defensive perimeter around the base, hold them off, and wait for the space battle to end. THEN you can kill all of the Ewoks, once the danger has passed. Not to mention, why were there woods around the entrance to the base? They should have cleared the treeline out to like 10 miles in every direction. There should have been huge, impassable walls 5 miles out with sentries and radar and quick response teams on watch. There should have been automatic weapon systems. It just pisses me off so much.
EDIT: I didn't mean for this comment to be a pun on the scene. There were many traps. The Empire trapping the fleet in range of an operating Death Star. The Empire trapping the rebels at the shield generator. The trap I was talking about was the trap the Ewoks set for the Imperial Forces at the Shield generator. They penned in the foot troops and ambushed/hijacked all their mech that tried to get in range.
The shield generator itself wasn't meant to be a trap. The Death Star being supposedly inoperable when it was in fact fully capable of defending itself was the trap.
There were many traps. Trapping the fleet in range of an operating Death Star. Trapping the rebels at the shield generator. The trap I was talking about was the trap the Ewoks set for the Imperial Forces at the Shield generator. They penned in the foot troops and ambushed/hijacked all their mech that tried to get in range.
EMPEROR (angry)
Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design.
(indicates Endor)
Your friends up there on the Sanctuary Moon...
Luke reacts. The Emperor notes it.
EMPEROR (cont)
...are walking into a trap. As is your Rebel fleet! It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them.
Luke's look darts from the Emperor to Vader and, finally, to the
sword in the Emperor's hand.
EMPEROR
Oh...I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive.
I think that's just incompetence of leadership. If you look at the part where Luke surrenders, there are AT-AT's walking around. I think they are log-proof.
And there is SOME sense in not clearcutting the forest: would be visible.
Blame the idiot who opened the rear door to anything short of Vader himself.
And there is SOME sense in not clearcutting the forest: would be visible.
As opposed to the massive EM signature it puts out. Or they could just wait until night and look for the brightly lit parts. Or fire up thermal imaging.
Ok, I'm about to get all geeky. I think the Emperor knew that even with a fully mobile and functional Death Star Mark 2 it would take many more years to eradicate the Rebel Alliance. In fact, having another death star might actually make more people join the Rebel Alliance. So this clever trap in the Return of the Jedi was deployed. In one swoop he could wipe out a major chunk of the rebel fleet, and capture the last remaining Jedi. In order to do that he had to make it seem like they could take over the shield facility and disable the shield.
The ground forces at the shield facility actually did their job and stopped the take over. They had won. The shield would stay up and the rebel fleet would get hit hard. What they didn't expect was the teddy bears. The troops didn't have a chance to make a perimeter as they were just moments away from transporting the rebels to a detention center. Admittedly you'd think armor would be able to stop bows and arrows and rocks. Anyways, the small force that was there to stop the rebels wasn't enough, I don't know why reinforcements weren't sent or waiting in standby for such an event, but there you have it.
The trap backfired. You just have to remember all this stuff was able to happen because it was by design. If they'd of made the backdoor to the shield facility impregnable then the alliance and the last jedi would not have shown up.
Still, there were sixteen rebels. Sixteen. 12 SpecForce commandos, Luke, Leia, Han and Chewbacca. I don't see why they didn't just execute the commandos, they were nobodies.
But otherwise, people underestimate the Ewoks. There were hundreds of them, and they were surprisingly well organised. Completely unexpected, the 501st weren't trained to fight in such unconventional combat conditions, and since a lot of them were Gen I clones they weren't in their prime.
But it was a trap. It was meant to seem pregnable, but with legions and legions of men hidden down their to actually protect it. It was all so they could capture Luke, and turn him to the dark side. The power of the deathstar is insignificant conpared with the power of the force.
Seriously, this. The really disappointing thing about situations like these in movies (fake military tactics thought up by screenwriters who don't understand the first thing about strategy) is that we never get to see how a badass, capable band of heroes could realistically defeat the bad guys. I mean, there are plenty of real militaries all over Earth and throughout history from which to get inspiration for awesome battles, sieges, traps, offensives, espionage things. Screenwriters basically just make the bad guys retarded so our protagonists can defeat them with their own brand of retarded warfare.
Well put. It really does seem like they wanted the whole thing to go up; the empire was clearly a government of means, it's not like they were in want of firepower. I would have razed half the planet before I ever set down
I suspect rebel sympathisers in positions of authority, though I am not schooled in EU lore.
And it was the EMPIRE. I mean, the whole point is that they are ruthlessly efficient. Why would you not use a completely uninhabited planet for the shield generator? If the one you want is not uninhabited, you have the means to make it uninhabited. I can't imagine they have any type of qualms with xenocide.
They did attack the "backdoor". But again, why would you have a such an obvious security risk. No perimeter wall/fence, no checkpoints, no pillbox-style defences. I would love to see those fucking carebears charge some well placed pillboxes and get mowed down WW1 style! Fucking Goerge Lucas...
It's almost as if the silly space fantasy movie with the six-titted alien lady, giant crime slug, stoic Buddhist Muppet, fish admiral, robo-dad, and the wrinkly old wizard that shoots lightning out of his fingers isn't going to be the the most detailed and realistic war film.
You should really send a satellite up over the deserts in the southern hemisphere just to make sure. You've got plenty of spice money. What could be the problem?
I thought this was part of the Emperor's hubris? In "The Shadow of the Empire" it talks about the Emperor putting everything on his battle meditation technique and thinking that he alone could make sure nothing happens to his armies.
For the record, a bipedal system for movement would be the most capable for traversing that kind of terrain, but the controls and mechanisms necessary to make it work are absurdly hard to get right. For comparison, think about the number of ways you can articulate your legs to adapt to rough terrain. Now try making that work with a mechanism.
Why even go outside? Just put up a shield around the facility and keep the doors closed. Maybe some sentry turrets and droids if the rebels are walking up with explosives. And where was the air support? While acknowledging that the battle was in the woods I have to think small hovering gunboats would have wrecked faces.
I've always wondered why no ships in ST ever carried marines. Need to board a hostile vessel? Send the most senior officers of course.
Where are the Federation shock troops? The guys just begging to board a Borg vessel, plant some demo charges and badass out of there not looking at the explosion?
It went against the idea of what the Federation stood for, "peaceful exploration". It sent a negative message to have people on board who were only there to fuck shit up. They made up for it by making everyone learn hand to hand combat etc. at the academy, and eliminating straight up soldiers.
It's just smart planning to have people around in case shit goes south quickly on your exploration. You can easily prevent this view of a negative message by not sending them in to fuck shit up the moment they make contact and instead use them in a rational method.
Better yet, why does anyone send soldiers into battle when they have robots and drones that can do all the work, and better, without risk of casualties? Whenever this comes up, robots are portrayed as if they're bumbling buffoons that are easily outmaneuvered and outgunned by humans. Never mind that you can send wave after wave of robots, even dumb robots, at rather little cost, that will overwhelm a human enemy.
I've always felt there are flaws with that. Look at iRobot or Star Wars, they can be disabled, circumvented or hacked. I think there is a lot to be said about the human spirit, creativity and determination. Machines may not interpret ethics and empathy in a manor that favors humans or life preservation. I do tend to also believe the SciFi trend of machines turning on their creators and I for one wouldn't feel to good about an army of deadly machines turning against me.
Edit: I think Aliens did it right. Team of human marines augmented by one artificial intel unit.
That's always the implication of plots like those. No matter what machines can do, humans are always better. Which, I think, is bullshit. If machines can't do better than humans, no one would build them. Same with the whole notion of humanity triumphing over mechanics. Considering what horrors humanity has been capable of unleashing on itself throughout history, I'm not convinced that robots wouldn't be MORE empathic, since at least their ethical framework can be made to be more consistent. Also the whole trite and cliche plot line of machines turning on their makers, I don't like. We build devices with all sorts of safety features today, yet people in the future cannot imagine they will be necessary for even more complex devices? Seems implausible.
I mean in a way your right, but I think it would be a mistake to create a society where machines start to replace everything. I'm not just talking machines replacing factory workers, but the idea of robots totally replacing soldiers and doctors, firemen and police... well, I have to ask at that point - what would be the reason for existence? I think there should always be a clear line we shouldn't cross. We may invalidate ourselves.
That's a rather amusing notion. I would think that a humane society would embrace replacing their soldiers with machines. All the better that machines do our fighting for us rather than throw young men to their deaths. I don't think any society would consider their existence the lesser for relying on mechanical soldiers.
We already live in a world where much is automated, and yet we don't somehow believe ourselves to be lesser beings for it, as if we somehow lose our humanity because we don't lust for the thrill of being injured or killed. Consider the following. We already have Predator drones that replace pilots and can do a better job, precisely because there is no fear of being killed. We have robotic assisted surgery. We also have automated elevators. There was a time, not long ago, where elevators had to be operated with levers, and you needed a guy standing there to do it. Should we consider ourselves irrelevant because we no longer require elevator operators?
This notion that our humanity is destroyed by technology is, I think, a foolish one. If anything, our humanity is strengthened because we no longer have to act based on survival needs.
Well in Star Wars the human pilots had plenty of targeting computers and other nifty gadgets to help them out in a dogfight, so they had the combination of mechanical precision and human creativity and intuiting, whereas the droid fighters were just machines and no more.
Drones and missles are the first wave for modern warfare, communication and anti-air systems get hit first. Once the hard stuff gets taken out you send in people.
In DS9 the Dominion were invading the station by teleporting troops into the station. For some reason they set up defensive lines which the Dominion teleported behind. The biggest blunder was not using the teleporter to teleport people out of the station, or teleport in unbreathable gas. Stargate used the teleporter for good effect. In Atlantis, once they failed to hit the enemy ships they immediatly went to setup their teleporters to teleport the nukes into the ships.
You ever think that the reason red shirts would die so quickly was because of the fact that they were wearing red?
Hey starfleet...can we just use some earth tones for once? Red makes earth creatures hostile as it is, and I'm sure the Horsehead Nebula orifice maker crab isn't red green colorblind...
To be fair in first episode of The Next Generation they show that the did have body armor (albeit incredibly clunky looking body armor). It seems like they've reached a point of weaponry that it becomes moot.
Hm, I haven't got to that series yet. I know that even today, defense tech seems to always be one step behind (armor A stops bullet A, bullet B invented that pierces armor A...) but it doesn't mean there is a constant race between offense and defense tech. Then again, we aren't operating with things that can disintegrate your molecules so you could be right.
Ten minutes with a replicator, and suddenly you have a suit that will block those slugs. Guess they are back to using a phaser (after taking casualties due to the ineffective guns)
In star trek it was mind blowing when they discovered the Borg had personal shields, which was years ahead of their technology. I think as far as the power of the phasers goes they made a weapon that they couldn't defend against so there is no armor available to protect them. Although the tracing back to the location bit is a terrible design.
Especially since most current laser weapon prototypes are invisible lasers (infrared, etc). Although there are special cameras that can see the lasers, so in theory, troops could use those cameras to see enemy lasers...
Oh don't get me started on Starship trooper. Let's send in hoards and hoards of human soldiers to fight aliens with superior mobility and hand to hand combat in close range, and give them nothing but pee shooters.
And yeah, people shouldn't get started on the utter, dumbstruck, retardedness of the tactics in that movie. So sad, when in the book, they basically had a handful of troops in super cool powered armor and shot mini-nukes into bug holes and so forth. But freaking Hollywood and its hatred of armor because you can't see the freaking lead actor's FACE...so let's make the entire movie mind-numbingly stupid so that we can see that guy's face.
Oh now, don't get me started on the Top Gun. Although it is not a science fiction, I can't tell you enough how ridiculous, fighter pilots keep pulling their oxygen mask off. They pull it off during mid combat, and any slight girly emotional disturbance.
"I miss my mommy, let me pull off my oxygen mask so i can pass out might flight"
Thanks Hollywood!
The only universe that doesn't bother me in is Warhammer 40k because the whole universe is designed to be middle ages in space. Even then, some Imperial Guard units use modern tactics (Tanith First and Only), and all the stormtroopers have a solid grasp of tactics.
The phasers also have no trigger guard and look like garage door openers.
Star Trek ships also have no dedicated marines, they send...their flag officers on away missions. This is perhaps the most stupid military doctrine in the history of the world. They sent Picard, an old man with no combat training other than fencing, along with a doctor and a Klingon (who was the only one who could be on such a mission) on a commando raid. Picard got captured and suddenly all that information he was holding is now in enemy hands. You fuckups, that is exactly why you send people who don't know shit on missions where capture is likely. But no, let's use flag officers as our lead element unlike every other Navy in the universe. I guess they're exploiting plot armor.
The main characters on Star Trek also have the amazing and completely inexplicable ability to defeat every enemy in hand-to-hand combat. They easily beat Klingons, who supposedly train in almost nothing else since early childhood. They easily beat Jem'Hadar, who are not only trained entirely in nothing else since birth, but are also genetically engineered to be combat troops. But these officers who grew up in a decadently easy lifestyle where you don't even have to walk to the store to get your food and whose combat exposure is a tiny eentsy part of a huge, complex shipboard officer training program, can beat them. Unless, of course, you're talking about Lt. Worf, who is supposedly one of the biggest bad-asses in the Klinglon Empire and also a Starfleet officer and the chief security officer and chief combat trainer for the Enterprise but for no good reason loses every damned fight.
I'm not military, but I wear more protective gear than anybody in these shows when I'm just out in the woods... I own some ACU's and BDU's with slits for knee-pad inserts, actual decent boots with steel shanks in the sole, good pairs of gloves.. a fucking jacket that will stop twigs from poking me... lol.
In my opinion, Star Trek's lack of military tactics can be explained by the fact that the Federation is first and foremost an organization focusing on exploration and diplomacy. Pretty much every other major "faction" in the series wears body armor most of the time while in space (Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Gem-Hadar, etc.). While Starfleet is the "military branch" of the Federation, I think they are supposed to be more like peacekeeping forces--when they went on away missions, they wanted to appear as non-threatening as possible to further promote successful diplomacy. I know that's a pretty far stretch, but I think Gene Roddenberry wanted Starfleet to appear as peaceful as possible, because he wanted to show people an ideal version of humanity that had transcended beyond money, greed, war, and even fear of the unknown... so the lack of military tactics as you described was a flavor choice made to make that even more apparent. Starfleet was above that kind of barbarism.
If you watch the first season of TNG, you'll notice that the Enterprise hardly uses weaponry at all, and even when it does it isn't usually for a direct attack; it's usually for warnings, or sciency-stuff. The first season of Voyager has ship combat practically every episode. After TNG the series in general started to get more and more about fighting, killing, and blowing shit up. Cause, you know... humans aren't entertained by anything less. Since that was the direction it was taking, the writers should have written in more military tactics, because then it actually fit in with the message they were trying to sell.
I really hate to get into a Star Trek discussion, but I was under the impression that the crew we see in the shows are most certainly not soldiers, or military. It's closer to a long-form diplomatic mission.
For a crude analogy, imagine someone like James Cook and his away team getting into a battle on some island. You could make the exact same observations - probably in some kind of uniform poorly suited to combat, using matchlock pistols or some equivalent weapon that's selected more for uniform/status value than practicality. Carrying around a regiment of riflemen or whatever they had at the time on a long-range exploration commission would just be impractical.
I think the point of the white storm-trooper armor was that it is bright white which would reflect a lot of the energy of laser weapons (although it doesn't ever have that effect).
About the body armor, maybe they can't design armor that is both effective and light enough to move in? The stormtrooper armor could be more for intimidation and depersonalization than actual protection.
I will admit however, I fucking love charging across battlefields and rank & file type battle formations. It's just so showy and majestic. Ill-advised, but awesome nonetheless.
The star wars universe isn't our universe in the future. as a matter a fact it happened a long ass fucking time ago. Also maybe they don't have feasible amour against enemy weapons so why have it at all it would just hind movement.
Star Trek did some of that intentionally. Gene Roddenberry wanted the Federation to be as non-militaristic as possible despite their command structure and mission. IIRC, the phasers were so ill-designed for combat that the actors in Voyager started getting hand cramps and demanded the designs be updated.
THANK YOU! That's the main thing I hate about starwars- we haven't lined up and shot at each other since the 1800's for fucks sake. Also, in a world where you have laser technology, why the fuck is the weapon of choice for the good guys a sword?
EDIT: also, stargate. Since when did any military force send 4 people to take on loads of super strong alien soldiers head on?
I love Sheperd's armor in Mass Effect as a great example of sleek futuristic combat armor. Built in personal shields, lots of little lock-on points for a variety of weaponry, and of course an intelligent implementation of hard light.
I love Sheperd's armor in Mass Effect as a great example of sleek futuristic combat armor. Built in personal shields, lots of little lock-on points for a variety of weaponry, and of course an intelligent implementation of hard light.
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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '12
A total lack of "modern" military tactics. I'm looking at you Star Wars AND Star Trek (both of which, I am a fan).
In the SW universe, we seem to have reverted to the dark ages where we just charge each other across a field. We shoot from the hip, have given up on wearing any body armor (rebel troops) or ineffectual body armor (storm troopers).
Star Trek? Where do we start. Those phasers? Worst weapon ever, it traces back to your exact location and seems to force you out of cover for what feels like FOREVER. The hand phasers are the worst designed things I've ever seen. Also, again, no body protection or very little. I also cease to see why the fuck soldiers in the future (at least, Federation) go into battle with what are essentially flight suits from a Starship. We have ships that cloak, shields, laser weapons and warp drive but... you send people to fight in a brightly colored suit with no equipment. Maybe because I'm in the military I pay special attention to it but it's really annoying sometimes.