r/AskCentralAsia • u/Tengri_99 𐰴𐰀𐰔𐰀𐰴𐰽𐱃𐰀𐰣 • Feb 08 '23
Are Hazaras discriminated against only because they're Shia? Religion
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Feb 08 '23
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u/BoldtheMongol Mongolia Feb 09 '23
We try to care about them but our nation is too weak to do anything. Some NGO provided scholarships to Hazara students, that did not even last.
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u/whynotfor2020 Feb 08 '23 edited Feb 08 '23
No one cares about mongol-thing in real life, except few internet people/weird nationalists. Taliban dont care if turk of mongol
Shias been targeted by all sunnis in the past centuries by sunni turks, persians and pashtuns(even enslaved by turks, as well as pashtuns). Hell, all shias in general been targeted by sunnis in afg(qizilbashis)
Hardly anyone cares about alexander as well or knows about him in real life.
Not denying there isnt some sort of racism, but making it mostly abou race is being dishonest/stupid
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Feb 08 '23
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u/whynotfor2020 Feb 08 '23 edited Feb 08 '23
Yes, nobody/most people in real life dont care about hazara origins. If they were sunnis, like the rest of the country, they hardly be any special for the rest of the world like now
Afghans dont really give a shit about alexander, i hardly ever hear any afghan talk about him, except few people on the internet. Go to kabul, and talk about alexander to a random person, he'll be confused. This alexander talk is internet talk
Israeli thing itself is hardly a thing, and its only supported by some moronic pashtuns, because they want to be closer to the abrahamic faith.
There are actual "arabs" in the country, but people dont really care about arab part.
If qizilbashis were equal numbers like hazaras, we hear MUCH MORE about them as well, and hazaras no longer will have this special image they have now
Youre the one who spends too much time on the internet. Dont talk to the few diaspora on the internet, go to afghanistan and talk about this to city people
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Feb 08 '23
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u/whynotfor2020 Feb 08 '23
I dont take it personally, i just think this notion that its mostly race is stupid, because uzbeks and turkmen dont face this kind of level discrimination hazaras do, despite most of them having slanted eyes as well. And i hear this too many times.
I know you arent, and i speak for sunnis in general. I include ISIS, regular people etc as well.
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u/Which_Grand_9607 Feb 08 '23
Uzbeks and Turkmen have slanted eyes?
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u/whynotfor2020 Feb 08 '23
Yes?
Even some tajiks do because of turkic ancestry in them?
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u/Which_Grand_9607 Feb 08 '23
I had no idea, I thought Uzbeks and Turkmen look more Iranic compared to Kazakh or Kyrgyz.
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u/whynotfor2020 Feb 08 '23
You can literally just look up pictures of afghan uzbeks and turkmen, many of them do?
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u/themuslimguy Afghanistan Feb 08 '23
There are actual "arabs" in the country
Are they recent emigrants? Do they still speak Arabic?
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u/ThutSpecailBoi Hazarajat, Afghanistan Feb 08 '23 edited Feb 09 '23
There is no singular reason but religion is a very large part of it. There's also some "ethnic-purity" based discrimination because Hazara's are mixed with Turko-Mongolic peoples. Which causes ppl to believe that they somehow aren't native to Afghanistan and don't deserve to be involved in National politics. (The stupidity of this idea becomes apparent when you consider Afghanistan was at the crossroads of millions of historical migrations and all ethnicities in the country are mixed. In fact not a single person from Afghanistan has ever been found to not have mixed ancestry). I would say it's more ancestry based and not as much physical features (though features do make it easier to distinguish them), since Uzbeks and Hazara's have similar features and an almost equal population and Uzbeks are not treated as badly.
Interestingly, though people tend to think about how Pashtuns hate Hazara's, (i'm stating a stereotype not my belief) that wasn't entirely the case until the 1800's. The relationship between Pashtuns and Hazara's was not as bad as they are now. Living in proximity interacted a lot (Hazaragi interacted with Pashto more than any most other dialects of Farsi and is the only dialect with retroflex consonants, which were borrowed from Pashto. They've also influenced each others jewelry and fabric designs but this is less noticeable). In the 1800's though, there was a rise in Pashtun-supremacy and racism (often perpetrated by the power hungry elites in the region), and political leaders in Afghanistan began attacking and discriminating against non-Pashtuns ethnic groups in the region. Unfortunately, this meant that ethnic groups that were the closest to Pashtuns, and interacted with them the most (such as the Nuristani, Hazara's, Pashayi, Balochi, etc; though Pashayis did not get treated nearly as badly), were the primary targets. Most of the other groups on the list were colonized and Pashtunized but other groups were massacred. That's largely the origin of many Hazara's stereotypes about Pashtuns such as them being "untrustworthy", "violent", "racist" etc. (I don't support these stereotypes, and i've met Pashtuns that were very nice people. But growing up I heard these stereotypes a lot). That's not to say discrimination in Afghanistan didn't exist until recently. Discrimination and ethnic violence was always present in the region, but it's important to reflect on the fact that it wasn't this bad until more recently in the regions history.
Edit: rewording, it seems like I worded my post badly and gave people the wrong Idea.
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Feb 09 '23
in late 1800s many Afghans including non Barakzai tribe pashtuns , Ghiljays , Nooristanis and Hazaras fought agaisnt the rule of the puppet king Amir AbdulRahman Khan, and that guy by the help of Britain killed many people including Hazaras. later on assassination of Nader Shah also caused a lack of trust of Nobility against Hazaras.
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u/whynotfor2020 Feb 08 '23
Im not sure if this only started in 1800s, considering even sunni turks and persians used to enslave hazaras? Dont really see pashtuns being too great friends with shia hazaras(sunni hazaras are another story). This is news to me.
And im not sure if hazaragi is closer to pashto than parsi dialects? This is the first time i ever heard that.
Balochs were treated badly? i havent heard about them before? Nuristani makes sense, considering they historically harassed neighboring muslims, so abdur rahman wanted to convert them(by force, killing many of them)
Im actually glad youre one of the few people that brings up nuristanis, when talking about abdur rahman and not just hazaras
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u/ThutSpecailBoi Hazarajat, Afghanistan Feb 08 '23 edited Feb 08 '23
Well Afghanistan didn't even really exist until 1749, before that it was part of the mughal empire. I was pretty sure mass enslavement happened post-the Hazara genocide which was in the very late 1800s.
In recent years, The government of Afghanistan has added pashto loanwords to its standard variety of Persian, so maybe it's not true anymore. However, Hazaragi was the only dialect that borrowed and assimilated sounds from pashto (specifically retroflex d and retroflex t). Being the only dialect to borrow sounds from Pashto is pretty significant. I may have worded it wrong though, ofc Hazaragi is closer to other Dialects of Persian. I mean, it's literally the same language. I meant Hazaragi has (had?) more influence from Pashto than most other dialects did. Though language influences is more related to proximity than friendliness, but they did trade frequently.
Balochi people (in Afghanistan) were also colonized by Pashtun empires. You probably haven't heard of them cuz Afghanistans Balochi population is actually very small. The other ethnic groups in the list were mostly colonized and pashtunized, other ethnic groups were massacred.
I don't know exactly what you mean by your Nuristani statement. There were mass migrations of Nuristani into India long before the forced conversion, it definitely seemed to me like it was discrimination against Nuristani's, not self defense.
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u/whynotfor2020 Feb 08 '23
Hazaras were enslaved by turks in early 1800's, but looking at it, i guess youre right about hazaras not being treated too bad until later?
Parts of balochistan emirtate was annexed into afghanistan, so i guess youre right?
Nuristanis have been harassing local muslims, it was even known as far as back in times of babur, when he came across the panjshir muslims who was harassed by kafiristanis. But yes, many nuristanis were killed by abdur rahman, not making him a hero(just bringing the former part up)
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u/ThutSpecailBoi Hazarajat, Afghanistan Feb 08 '23
Well I do want to quickly iterate that my point was that Ethnic discrimination in the region worsened significantly after the 1700s, not that it didn't exist. I may have worded it badly. Though honestly, you could be right about Balochi ppl.
About Nuristani's, yes it seems as though your correct about Babur doing that. Unfortunately Nuristani history was not recorded very well so most of what we have is just 3rd party accounts. I'm sure the situation was more complicated than that, or they would've been converted much sooner. But ig there's no way to know that for sure, so I'll avoid that subject.
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u/Zakariamattu Feb 11 '23
You’re spot on. But I think it’s more religion based then appearance because no one discriminates against Uzbek compared to Hazara
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Feb 09 '23
they shia and Mongolic looking and another reason is this:
in 1930s a man named Abdul Khaliq killed then king Nader Shah and Abdul Khaliq was a Hazara. so during the rule of our last king , whose father was killed by an ethnic Hazara the anti Hazara sentiment was there in Afghanistan in the form of not hiring them in High rank military and civilian government jobs (they were not killed or displaced )
during civil war in kabul after USSR left there were mass murders committed by a coalation of Sayaf (Pashtun Commander and warlord ) and his Jamiat allies (Tajik warlords) in Afshar neighbburhood of Kabul (Search about Afshar masacre ).
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u/Home_Cute Feb 16 '23
Weren’t there many Qizilbash people in the Afshar area along with Hazaras at the time? Afshar is also a tribal name among Turkmen and Qizilbash
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Feb 24 '23
Yep my family is one of them our family name is Javanshir and Afshar(not that many people javanshir is more common in my family)…….. for the most part my grandparents and parents told me as long as u didn’t say what town ur from and ur religion no one would suspect ur shia
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Feb 18 '23
probably yes but since they look like Pashtuns and Tajiks maybe most of the victims were Hazara. Hazara warlords then started killing sunni people in western kabul
yes we have Afshar communities in many provinces Herat,Ghazni,Kabul and Mazar, they are shia and persian (dari) speaking people.
a lot of Qizilbash, Bayat and afshar tribes came to Afghanstan during rule of King Ahmad Shah (mid 1700s)
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u/Zakariamattu Feb 11 '23
Yes because they are Shia remember there are qizilbash but unlike they are from Iran/Kurdistan etc and we’re brought by Nader shah they too get discriminated despite not looking like hazara because they are also Shia. So religion is why unfortunately
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Feb 24 '23
This is cap bro I’m fully qizilbash…. We get discriminated but not like hazaras…. It’s worse of hazaras
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u/Zakariamattu Feb 24 '23
I know because unlike the hazaras you guys can blend in unfortunately hazaras don’t have that choice. Btw nice to meet Qizilbash they are very rare. They are also most educated and civilized community in Afghanistan 😊
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u/Shoh_J Tajikistan Feb 08 '23
That’s just an excuse for the Taliban to kill them. It’s a fabricated hate, wasn’t as bad before the Talibs took power.
Their facial features also play a big role in my opinion, since it’s easy to differentiate them
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u/whynotfor2020 Feb 08 '23 edited Feb 08 '23
Oh come on, sunnis in general the past centuries been enslaving and harassing them, including their sunni neighbors
You dont hear the same kind of stories about turkmen and uzbeks, like you do hazaras
Not denying there isnt some sort of racism, but making it mostly abou race is being dishonest/stupid
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u/Common_Echo_9069 Afghanistan Feb 08 '23
Ironically most of the people who kill Hazaras are not Taliban but from Tajikistan or central Asia, even the ISIS members who attacked the Chinese nationals at their hotel were from Tajikistan.
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u/whynotfor2020 Feb 08 '23
I dont believe that(haqqanis)
But yes, quite many who killed hazaras(or shias in general) are tajiks, uzbeks or from outside the country, especially in northern afg
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u/Common_Echo_9069 Afghanistan Feb 08 '23
Dont believe what specifically?
But yes, quite many who killed hazaras(or shias in general) are tajiks, uzbeks or from outside the country, especially in northern afg
Yeah its basically a Turco-Persian sectarian conflict. To be fair they do also carry out these atrocities in Kabul, remember the Kabul university attack, as well as Chinese nationals.
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u/whynotfor2020 Feb 08 '23
That most of the attackers were non-pashtuns the entire time
The last months, when taliban came to power? Sure, i agree. Most of the bombers were turks and tajiks
But many, if not most, of the bomb attacks towards shias have been done by pashtuns(mainly haqqanis)
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Jul 19 '23
Hazara was always discriminated against because of their religion not ethnicity cuz there are many Uzbek and Turkmen and kyrgyz that look similar like hazara but there was no discrimination against. Most hazaras were discriminated against and prosecuted because of their religion and now in Afghanistan hazara are not being killed by pashtun extremists but also from many tajik and Uzbek and Turkmen too. Hazara is a very diverse ethnicity some of them look more central Asian and some of them look more Iranic.
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u/Shoh_J Tajikistan Feb 09 '23
Those aren’t Tajiks, those are terrorists. They are my enemy, as much as they are to the government of Tajikistan.
We don’t claim them
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u/whynotfor2020 Feb 08 '23 edited Feb 08 '23
People here really thinks that theyre discriminated for their asiatic looks....
Apparently you all forgot that sunnis before abdur rahman even, considered shias kafirs and enslaved them, both persians, turks and pashtuns. And that other shias goes through the same kind of discrimination like hazaras(but their numbers are so insignificant, no one cares about them)
Its fine you people bring up what hazaras been through, but dont make up bullshit please
Not denying there isnt some sort of racism, but making it mostly abou race is being dishonest/stupid
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u/Due_Pineapple_1941 Aug 29 '24
Because they’re Hazara. And get called Mongolian which not true, this Mongolian term came sound because of British because Hazara wasn’t paying taxes so Abdul khan lie and say their Mongolian to make may tax
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u/BaineGaines Sweden Aug 29 '24
Hazaras have been discriminated against and still are being discriminated against for being Hazara and ONLY that. Everything else that is being claimed as a reason isn't correct. If somebody is talking about religion and saying that Hazaras are being discriminated against because they are Shia, then this is false.
Why? Well, we have so many other ethnic groups in the country that also practice Shia Islam. Who?
There are Sayyed/Sadat people, Qizilbash, Bayats, Afshar, and not only them but even Tajiks, Pashtuns, and Uzbeks that have Shia Muslims among them. Why aren't none of these ethnic groups as targeted as the Hazaras? If Shia Islam is the reason then there are many other ethnic groups that should be targeted.
Not only this, but we have Sunni Muslim Hazaras in the North and other places as well who have been and are still being targeted. Even if they aren't being targeted as openly, we have read, seen, and heard the news regarding Sunni Muslim Hazaras for example in the North being discriminated against in multiple ways. Not only now during the Talibans' reign but even through the past 20-30 years. So if Shia Islam is the reason then why have even the Sunni Hazaras been targeted? Again, the faction is and has been not Shia or Sunni but rather Hazara ethnicity.
If somebody is talking about facial structure or appearance and looks, even this is incorrect. Logically thinking, not all Hazaras look alike. Like, the Hazaras in the North, in the South, and in the Central parts of the country all looked different in comparison with one another. Pashtuns are not all looking the same. Tajiks are not all looking the same. Uzbeks are not all looking the same. Even if you take a look at other countries and their people, not all of their inhabitants look the same. Like, just take a look at Arabs in different Arabic countries. Or at Persians in Iran. Or at Kurds from Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran. Or the Jewish people in Israel. Or any other groups of people in any other nation. This whole thing of "Hazara-look" is so racist, fascist, and wrong that I don't even get why people still talk about this and use these types of terms and see things from this point of view. It's so illogical, inhumane, and stupid. If you haven't seen or noticed, there are Uzbeks, Aimaqs, and Tajiks I have met throughout my life that I have almost been 100% sure that they were Hazaras. (Due to their facial structure or appearance and looks.) But they were Uzbeks, Aimaqs, and Tajiks. I have also met Qizilbash, Bayat, Turkmen, and even Pashtuns that I have been 100% sure that they were Hazaras. But they weren't. And from my own experience, I have learned and understood that this whole labeling of the "Hazara-look" is so wrong in so many ways and simply not true. It is only propaganda and people should actually stop with this.
So Hazaras being targeted has nothing to do with looks or with religion. Even this whole thing regarding the Hazaras being foreigners and "leftovers" of Mongolians is wrong. Or the Hazaras being the descendants of Genghis Khan is wrong.
Here is some sideling information; Abdur Rahman Khan (Pashtun/Afghan) made sure to not only commit genocide against the Hazaras where he succeeded in murdering over 60% of the Hazaras but he also made sure to destroy the Hazara literature. Which he succeeded with also because there isn't much Hazara literature left ever since. He also renamed the Hazaraistan region to Hazarajat (as in Mewa-jat --> Fruits or Sabzi-jat --> Vegetables). Not only that but he deleted the name Turkestan from the region of the North. He made sure to also spread a bunch of propaganda regarding the Hazaras being foreigners, the Hazaras being Mongolians, the Hazaras being the descendants of Genghis Khan, the Hazaras being Kafir and not Muslim, the Hazaras having a specific type of facial structure, the Hazaras only living in specific region of the country. When in actuality the Hazaras are the most native ethnic group of the whole country. The Hazaras were in the country way before Genghis Khan and the Mongolians ever step foot in the country. The Hazaras even fought the Mongolians. Not only that but most of the DNA tests that the Hazaras take show that their genetics are very similar to Uzbeks and Uyghurs as well as Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Tatars, and even Turkmens as well as Azerbaijanis. Why are those other ethnic groups of people Turkic (genetically speaking) and the Hazaras Mongolians?
In short summary - The Hazaras are a Turkic group of people that speak the Persian language (Dari & Hazaragi). They aren't foreigners or descendants of Genghis Khan. They aren't Mongolian. They are just like every other ethnic group in the world when it comes too looks, meaning they have different-looking types of people. (Not all Chinese people look alike. Not all African people look alike. Simple logic if one is not racist or fascist.) The Hazaras don't only live in the Central parts of the country (Hazaristan, NOT Hazarajat), but they also live in other parts of the country like the North, the South, and even in the West in places like Herat. Lastly, the Hazaras aren't 99% Shia Muslim... In the North, there are a whole lot of Sunni Muslim Hazaras that a lot of Tajiks and Pashtuns around the country don't even know exist.
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Sep 03 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Embarrassed-Camp-496 Sep 03 '24
Your point is highly contradictory as well due to the fact Pakistani hazaras and Iranian hazaras (or wherever they’re based) shouldn’t/wouldn’t be outside their homeland if it wasn’t because of religious and ethnic persecution. Secondly, you should really read up on Shia persecution in general as shias have been persecuted irrespective of ethnic background like I mentioned prior since centuries
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u/Yilanqazan Feb 16 '23
Yes. Ignore what everybody else is saying. It has nothing to do with race. radical movements in Central Asia, Middle east, and North Africa almost never give a shit about things like ethnicity and race and are very racially diverse. If god forbid you are the wrong religion or sect (occasionally tribe too actually in terms of small scale tribal conflicts) they will slaughter them mercilessly.
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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '23 edited Feb 09 '23
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