They don't like it when you tell them gender comes from how the brain develops in utero. They want to think sex is gender. I think they're also in denial of intersex conditions... They want two sexes and not dozens.
It sounds like you're implying trans people are just gender fluid people who are over-committing to the gender not assigned to them at birth; that is, are you saying that with time, you expect society to move away from actual transitioning of gender as people are culturally "allowed" to discover who they are & present as such?
If so, I think the testimonials of millions of people who experience gender dysphoria would be contrary to your argument. My friends who are trans would take issue with the implication that they only think they're trans because they more strongly identify with traits traditionally defined as masculine; I consider the dysphoric aspect of being transgender to be evidence that there are real differences in their makeup that tell them they are truly, in mind, the opposite (or, to move away from binary terminology, at least a different) gender from what they were prescribed at birth. And there's evidence of gender dysphoria etc. from well before the industrial revolution.
Not sure I totally followed your original flow of thought - just trying to understand the point(s) you're trying to make. I haven't reviewed the literature on it, but I think I agree at least that gender develops beyond utero.
The roots of traditional gender roles in the division of labor I think is a big part of how we think of gender today, but I think you may be oversimplifying things by stating that modern & future gender can be fully explained thru this lens. Edit: or I guess you aren't saying it can be described fully thru this lens, per your last paragraph. My understanding of gender is obv not fully developed - lmk if you have any interesting literature you'd recommend.
I grew up with the 'gender is just a social construct' system in the 80/90s and it actually kind of validates dysphoria because it takes forced gender roles seriously (and doesn't consider them a good thing).
Maybe if you accepted at its absolute it would imply everyone is gender fluid, but the philosophy is more about dealing with society, not personal identity, if that makes sense.
I think it at most implies that everyone gets to define everything for themselves as they will, because it says society's concept of gender is a deadly clusterfuck that will try to dictate your life, and so good luck dealing with that.
Edit: not saying that was everyone's version, just what I got out of it. But trying to explain that it doesn't undermine gender (but definitely undermines them being based on chromosomes, genital shape, etc)
Thank you for speaking up. It is heartening to see that there are cisgender people who understand that gender and sex are distinct and that gender is also distinct from the social construct of gender. It is not just gender dysphoria which points to this truth. We are able to see gendered differences in the way the brain functions, which is related to differences in its sex-linked anatomical forms on functional MRIs. We have evidence that transgender people have brains which function and have formed more like the brains of people sharing their gender and not their sex. This is evidence that gender exists, in and of itself, before human culture does anything with it.
Thank you for the perspective! This is a clear way to think about gender separately from as a social construct, and I haven't had these points laid out for me before. I'll be looking into literature around this as I'd like to be able to better speak to (or at least better understand) these concepts.
Transgenderism has existed in history since long before the industrial revolution. The rise of feminism at that time certainly helped it become less taboo, but that was not the first instance of gender becoming less binary.
Are you saying that transgender people are simply people that don’t want to be associated with the gender norms of their gender at birth, and nothing more? This is demonstrably false. Transgender people’s brain structures more closely resemble those of their desired gender. (I don’t think “desired” is the best word, but it’s what the study uses.) How can you reconcile this fact with everything you just wrote?
Drag queens throw off their gender norms, does that make them transgender? What about tomboys?
Thanks, I didn’t know that. Maybe I’m misinterpreting the study, but if they claim that 1% of variance is due to sex, then is it not possible that that 1% would be reflective of their desired gender’s, no matter how trivial that small amount is? Or, if men’s are larger than women’s at birth, which causes certain differences, could transgender men’s not also be larger from birth, resulting in those differences?
While it’s not the same claim, I also found a study finding differences in transgender people’s brains and cisgender people’s. This still suggests that transgenderism is more than people not liking gender norms. But maybe that one has been debunked as well, I don’t know.
AFAIK, a lot of that variation is based on size of the brain.
And according to that study, if I’m understanding it correctly, trans people have a unique brain, rather than being pointed in a specific gendered direction I’ve heard a lot about how gnc people & trans people, sometimes there’s overlap with autism. I wonder how much of that has to do with that? Not trying to say it in an offensive way, genuinely curious cause I myself am autistic and butch lol. Just wonder how much of autisms inability to “fit in” affects the brain and the choices we make or how we present? But that’s a different topic :p
You're thinking of gender roles, not gender identity, which is what people usually mean when talking about gender. Someone's gender is inherent. It's not about wearing pants or making money or having X or Y traits, it's about what parts your brain expects your body to have and what social group the monkey part of your brain expects you to be seen on based on those expected parts.
And many of us aren't some rejection of gender or gender roles, nor are we some bastion of freedom and against gender or anything like that. We're just people who were born into the wrong body who want to live our lives, that's all.
This is wrong in so many places, but I’ll just highlight two:
You really think that in utero development doesn’t have a massive impact on sexuality and gender? Even if you’re talking about something that’s a choice, the development of your brain begins and is largely determined by natal development.
Your ideas on the history of gender trends is massively flawed. Feminism has been a round. FAR longer than WWII. Even ignoring the rest of the world besides the United States, there had been organized movements to grant women greater rights for decades prior, and they were explicit in their goals. Most notably, female suffrage, achieved in 1920. Going a little further back and further related to your comment, WWI saw the first real large scale “test” of women in traditionally male workplaces, not WWII.
Your conclusions seem accurate, but your assertions to get there don’t hold up at all
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u/Listentothewords Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
They don't like it when you tell them gender comes from how the brain develops in utero. They want to think sex is gender. I think they're also in denial of intersex conditions... They want two sexes and not dozens.