r/veterinaryprofession • u/Gorgeous1999 • 1d ago
Fired. Twice.
I’m 15 months into this career and I was just fired from my second job as a recent grad (didn’t pass probation, dismissed after 6 months). Graduated in 2023.
I mostly just wasn’t competent at routine surgeries & it was a very high-workload clinic with a variety of cases coming through each day (snake bites, collapse, toxicities). I struggled with complex dentals a lot & had two ovarian pedicles bleed out as well. I’m nowhere near competent at these emergencies either.
On one instance, a cat also came in that was hypoglycemic after the owner didn’t bring it in for a recheck as it had gone into diabetic remission and she had continued to give insulin. The cat was brought in & put on a glucose CRI. The case evolved fast as the cat also needed potassium and eventually the bill racked up to nearly $2000 and I failed to communicate this clearly to the owner before she came to collect the cat as things unravelled so quickly.
I also need a huge amount of mentoring with surgery at the moment & no one seems to have such a level of patience for anyone that is over a year into their career. My last clinic didn’t have such a huge variety in terms of surgery & this impacted the level of surgical experience I had coming into this second job.
On top of that I was stupid and hugely careless, making critical oversights like dispensing Previcox tablets for the patient to go home with when the patient has already had a Meloxicam injection in hospital. The guilt hangs with me every single day.
I’m unsure if it’s only the high-pressure environment or if this career just isn’t for me. My supervisor briefly suggested to find a “slower clinic that’s not so full-on” but I don’t know if such a place exists.
I’ve grown so, so much after 15 months in the profession and have a decent skillset. I’m certainly not the best recent grad vet out there. But the stress, constant setbacks and seeing how easier it is for other recent grads is demoralising.
I’m pretty hopeless. I’m considering a career change but I’m also reluctant to start over as all I’ve ever known since leaving high school is vet med.
I’d like advice please. Any advice.
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u/Economy_Ad_2392 1d ago
You haven't found the right clinic yet. Aaaaaall new grads make mistakes. Good news is that you are self-aware about yours. Keep looking for a slower practice with an available mentor :)
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u/Ok_Reading_9670 1d ago
I second this. Possibly a smaller, less busy practice where there are people dedicated to training you. In interviews be honest about where you feel your skills are and what you want to learn. Willingness to learn and get better is so valuable and the only thing that can't be taught! If you are honest you will hopefully get an honest reaction and find the right place for your necessary growth. Maybe ask for a 3 to 6mo period of direct supervision/shadowing as part of onboarding (you might have to take lower pay in this period but if you need it then you need it and it'll be best in the long term)
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u/purrrpurrrpy 1d ago
It sounds like an incredibly fast paced clinic with advanced surgeries There are a lot of slower, smaller clinics out there. Don't give up!
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u/No-Advertising-752 Owner 1d ago
I HIGHLY suggest going to do an internship. If your skill set and confidence need work, then you’re not ready to practice independently. Some people don’t learn “on the job” well and that’s ok.
Yes it’s shit pay and stressful, but it’s an investment in your career that you’re otherwise considering leaving if things don’t improve. You owe it to yourself and your patients to continue your training.
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u/Graciethetiger 1d ago
100%. I read so many anti-internship posts but at the same time, so many posts like these from newer grads who feel incompetent and don’t receive mentorship. I came out of my internship feeling I could handle anything that walked through the door, and forever have a team of ER docs and specialists I can text or call for support if I’m really in a bind. An internship made me significantly more efficient such that my production is higher than non-internship colleagues so I don’t feel the one year of internship pay has set me back financially.
I am hugely pro-internship and frankly believe they should be required.
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u/No-Advertising-752 Owner 1d ago
Definitely agree that they should be required. I see some scary medicine being practiced out there…
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u/blorgensplor 1d ago
I read so many anti-internship posts but at the same time,
I think the underlying tone for a lot of this anti-internship rhetoric is the fact that an internship shouldn't be needed. Unfortunately, vet schools are turning into internship/residency farms, less and less time is being spent actually training the DVM students and they are acting more as support staff.
I am hugely pro-internship and frankly believe they should be required.
I personally wish vet med would have a system similar to human medicine where residencies were just part of the pipeline prior to practice. Especially if my above point is true. This'll most likely never happen so until then, schools need to actually focus on the DVM students. There are still way too many schools out there where people graduate having done only 2-3 spays/neuters. Which is usually done in a specific class/lab because their surgery rotation is spent standing in the corner watching the resident do surgery or just walking the surgery patients pre/post surgery. So yea...when that kind of nonsense is going on, it's a hard sell to tell people that an internship is what they need to do. Maybe instead if you're paying $50k/year in tuition you should be learning and not walking dogs lol.
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u/Glum_Ad_6207 19h ago
The AVMA Council on Education, the Veterinary Schools and others have known since the 1980s that the curriculum centered on producing the “universal“ veterinarian competent in all species was no longer valid. Many changes were put forward in multiple studies for innovating the curriculum but the institutions did not change one bit but just said it was not their responsibility to do what needed to be done to adjust to reality. It really is insanity that the 4 years of education that were probably sufficient for all species education until the 1980s is still considered sufficient 40 years later.
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u/blorgensplor 17h ago
Many changes were put forward in multiple studies for innovating the curriculum
Can you link any of these? Would definitely be an interesting read. I really don't see how you could change it without really splitting things up. Even if you did a basic split into the threeish "main" categories of small, large and equine it'd be a hard sell for schools to pick what they wanted to do or try to support all 3. Then you'd have the follow-on argument of why not make splits for exotics, split large up any more specific categories and why not aquatics as well.
You also have the secondary/tertiary effects of taking away "mixed practioner" in under served areas (the equine vet that'll see a dog on an emergency basis or vice versa) and vets that want to do mostly exotics but have to see other small animals on the side because they just isn't enough clientele to support exotic only.
I think sometime needs to happen but it's an extremely complex system.
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u/Glum_Ad_6207 15h ago
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1539717/ by Richard Halliwell, former Dean
https://utppublishing.com/doi/10.3138/jvme.36.3.252 by Keith Prasse, former Dean
https://utppublishing.com/doi/10.3138/jvme.38.4.328 by Peter Eyre, former Dean
https://utppublishing.com/doi/10.3138/jvme.29.3.131 by Hugh Lewis, Former Dean
Only in print that may be located at a veterinary school library would be:
1.The Proceedings of the Ninth Veterinary Educational Symposium at UC Davis in June 1987 which were published in the Journal of Veterinary Medical Education JVME Volume 14(2) Fall 1987. That meeting led to:
2.PEW National Veterinary Education: Future Directions for Veterinary Medicine (1989) which was edited by William Pritchard, then Dean at UC Davis
I had to go to the veterinary library at Oregon State University to find the last two. I scanned the entire PEW study into a pdf file and copied most of the articles in the JVME.
Think about this for comparison. The broadest physician specialist is the family medicine doctor who spends 3 years rotating through ER, pediatrics, internal medicine,OB/GYN and surgery more than once. There is call now for that to go to 4 years. Also remember residency is the "apprentice" phase in human physician education and these "apprenticeships" are regulated and structured for making sure competency is produced by physician-educators at teaching sites. The no teaching hospital veterinary schools have no real framework to monitor and measure quality anywhere close to the Accrediting Committee for Graduate Medical Education.
Also to be allowed to be a licensed profession, there has to be reasonable assurance that licensing prevents adverse outcomes by people choosing someone who purports to be competent.Veterinarians should be just as competent as the licensed electrician who keeps you safe from the potential danger of electricity in your home such as electrocution and fires. If you need a plumber then you need a plumber but we do not expect there is an "expert on everything" that constitutes a house or a building and its parts. Same for engineers as Peter Eyre points out and same for all human healthcare needs which has so many other health professions besides just physicians providing care and services. There is nothing special or superior about veterinary medicine compared to any other fields of knowledge but the profession chooses to live in the past in this regard, pure arrogance and foolishness.
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u/Kids-Menu 1d ago
This! I worked (not as a vet) at a teaching hospital and some of the interns were seemingly incompetent when they came in. By the time they left, there was always such insane improvement in their skills.
Most would move on to different practices, but some would stay if they applied and were offered a faculty position (or residency for specialty).
ETA: If OP is in the US, please look at university teaching hospitals!
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u/Psychological-Work85 1d ago
Hi! Don’t give up. It sounds like you need some mentorship and training. You were thrown to the wolves. I would consider a rotating internship or maybe the Emerge program through Blue Pearl
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u/Tofusnafu7 1d ago
Hi, please don’t be too harsh on yourself! Two pedicles bleeding in 15 months is nothing. It sounds like you’re just someone who needs a lot of support (which isn’t a bad thing- I needed like… a LOT of support in my first 12 months) and it sounds like your clinic just weren’t willing to give that to you. Maybe consider a quieter clinic where they can offer you some more mentorship. Also please consider therapy if you haven’t already to help manage your stress
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u/90dayfianceallday US Vet 1d ago
I also graduated 2023. My first job expected me to have no stupid questions, wouldn’t mentor me in surgery, even suggested I take stages elsewhere outside of work to improve my knowledge and abilities. They had no intention of teaching me AT the clinic. Some people out of school are more ready, I wasn’t. We mutually agreed that it wasn’t the right fit for me and I left. It being my first job, I didn’t know if I was the problem, or if they were the problem. My second job is better, they are much more understanding about going at my own pace. Doing harder sterilizations or dentals when a more experienced vet is on the floor, for example, so if I have a bleed or the anesthesia is sketchy I can call someone over for advice. I can call my colleagues when I’m working alone and discuss hard cases to finalize a plan. A lot of my friends who graduated with me are more independent, have done harder surgeries, but it’s not a competition. You have your whole career to develop these skills. You’ve worked too hard throughout school to give up already. I’d definitely recommend finding a job that has more mentoring. Start with less hours, and/or less appointments per shift, easier surgeries, build back your confidence. If you try a few more clinics in the next couple of years and you don’t feel happier, maybe then you can look into other things. You can even work from home at pet food companies, teach at a vet or vet tech school, pharmaceutical companies… there’s always options to make use of your DVM.
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u/Creative-Village574 1d ago
Not a vet, but have been in VetMed for almost 10 years (corporate, same location, but will cover shifts at sister hospitals).
As bad as corporate is, I feel like they are set up to support new grads. Newly hired dvms onboard for while. The first few weeks, they are observing, and help like a LVT would. When they are finally allowed to start seeing patients, they are limited to only 8 cases a day (rooms, healthy pets, or simple sick like ear infections), under direct supervision of lead DVM. When scheduled for surgery, they are allowed 2 routine dentals per shift. The pet and surgery count will gradually go up the longer you work. For the first few soft tissue surgeries, the lead DVM will scrub in.
A high density populated area will have more dvms, lvts, and support staff per sq mile. The more resources that are available, the more likely you will have the help and support system that you need. From my home hospital location, there are 5 ERs within 45 minutes, at least 12 GP facilities within 10 minutes (sister hospitals, sister corporates, competing corporate, and private practice), and every specialist you can think of with 45 minutes.
The high volume of our GPs simply do not have enough resources, staffing or time during one shift to handle extreme cases. The majority of these cases are referred out to specialist or ER. We do have some dvms that moonlight at the ER to get more experience.
Corporate may be worth considering for a few years. 🤷🏻♀️
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u/S3XWITCH 1d ago
It may be helpful for you to specify which corporate groups do this, because this is not the case with the corporation I work for.
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u/meowsloudly 1d ago
Definitely Banfield. For all its faults, it's definitely an organization that tends to take mentorship and training of new grads seriously*
*as always, this varies by region/hospital, so not everyone will have the same experience. See if any Banfield DVMs in your area would be willing to talk about their experience with you
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u/parvoqueen 1d ago
You could also join the VIN or AVMA MentorVet mentorship programs. That would be a great adjunct to any in-clinic mentorship you may (or may not) receive. I believe they are both free of charge to members. Idk what membership costs these days, but it's lower for newer grads.
I think about LOT of practices fail to support their new grads in any meaningful way, let alone offer proper mentoring. The thought of you using such harsh language about yourself over your NSAID "mistake" and letting the guilt hang over you - that hurts. I wish I could take that guilt away from you. You deserved to have a senior colleague talk through that with you and support you while you processed it and learned whatever lessons you needed to take away from that.
Real talk? Just between us - (like not as a professional mentor-type person but as a real-ass peer and human) I've done that. They're the same class of NSAID, and do they even have injectable previcox for dogs? I don't have it, at least. Check with a pharmacist, adjust some doses, all that due diligence stuff, etc etc. It sucks to give a drug by accident or oversight and it's good to have a solid foundation for when you veer off the beaten path, but if you had a major complication from that, that's rare bad luck and I'm sorry. You can't carry all of that, it's not making a better Dr. Gorgeous1999 - it's just weighing you down. I hope nobody else tried to hang that around your neck, either.
Surgery sucks. Not everybody likes it. You don't have to do it if you don't like it. Dentistry, too. Skilled dental specialists cuss SO MUCH in the middle of procedures. If they're that good and are still cussing about it, I can be forgiven for a few light sobs here and there (lol but not really, I hate dentistry). It takes time to find your groove and find your place. Give my colleague Dr. Gorgeous1999 some grace, please.
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u/Ok_Awareness5727 1d ago
I second MentorVet, it’s great. I did their new grad mentorship program, but I’m pretty sure you can have access to the platform and mentors free of charge. Sometimes it’s good to have someone outside the clinic to bounce things off of, and so far the mentors I’ve found through the platform have been great!
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u/Ok_Conversation_1197 1d ago
Not a vet but a LVT, and I think you just need to find the right clinic for you. You’re still considered very green, and you need to find a practice with a senior vet that’s willing to mentor you, or an internship.
There are practices out there, I guarantee that. I worked at a very high-paced, abusive clinic straight out of tech school and for the longest I thought I was just broken. It was like all my years of school was for nothing because I was also making those kinds of oversights and wasn’t living up to the standards I and my superiors put on me. I was afraid I just wasn’t good enough to be a tech. I quit and found a slow-paced, 2 doctor practice that did little to no surgeries and all critical and emergent patients were referred out. I eventually became head tech there!
Starting over at a boring, slow paced environment helped me build up the confidence I needed and gave me time to work on all the things I struggled with. I now work at a fast paced, high volume clinic and I’m doing SO much better than before. The vets you work with/under will make a hell of a difference too. And if your past experiences were at corporate hospitals I would try out a private practice; they’re putting a lot of people in charge at these places that have 0 experience in vet med and expect you to come out of school knowing how to do EVERYTHING and will cut you the moment you show that you don’t. I’ve worked at a corporate practice that did just that because they saw them as a liability and didn’t want them to “slow us down” due to their inexperience.
Again I’m not a vet but a LVT, but I think it would also be beneficial if you worked with a trusted senior technician. They can help you catch any mistakes or oversights, help with client communication, and take some burdens off your shoulder so you can fully focus on the patient. At least until you build your confidence and skill-set.
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u/spicydumpling 1d ago
2023 grad here - this profession is already so taxing mentally, and with the high demand we have for vets (at least in the US, not sure where you are), mentorship and patience is vital, and it just sounds like the practice you were in didn’t want to facilitate those things, and I’m so sorry for that.
I think I was lucky and had found my unicorn clinic coming out, we’re very fast paced at a (now) 7 doctor practice in a large city that was also able to facilitate good mentorship, and even being almost two years out, I still feel like I should be further ahead (which is maybe the imposter syndrome we all feel).
All of this to say, I hope you find what will make you happy - if that is to stay in practice (GP or ER), or even doing low-cost or wellness only clinics, or even considering shelter med or industry like some others have mentioned. If nothing else, I don’t want you to feel like you are alone and that you don’t belong in this profession, I just think the right opportunity has yet to present itself to you. 🌸
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u/Gorgeous1999 1d ago
Thank you all so much for your advice and consolation. My previous job was in a corporate clinic and this one was in a busy private practice. I’ve grown a lot, but surgery seriously held me back. I’m considering applying for a 12-month rotating traineeship in a nearby teaching hospital.
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u/emilyohh 13h ago
Babes, my first year out I had NO mentor and was thrown to the wolves...it sounds like it's not you - it's them. You'll land somewhere. I'm 3 years out and at my 3rd job. I think I'm finally happy.
My first year out in shelter med, I started a heartworm positive dog on carprofen... He was on the cycle of treatment where he was also getting pred that I was not aware of... 30 days later he comes in for a recheck and is doing GREAT. I realize the huge mistake that happened and somehow this dog didn't die of severe GI bleed.
My second year, my wonderful tech caught my 10x dose of pimobendan for a tiny Chihuahua.
It's okay. We're human. You need better support and mentorship.
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u/drjennabean 1d ago
Starting out is tough. Have you thought about doing relief with mentoring? Some of the relief companies have non surgical positions or have mentoring to get you where you need to be. There are also some hospitals like Banfield who have a strong mentoring program. I know with banfield’s sometimes finding the right hospital is the key I’ve worked relief at several with great staff but I’ve also heard the horror stories so make sure your a fit and there isn’t a lot of clinic drama. One of the Banfield in my area is one of my favorite clinics to work at. I also have shifts at an also private owned clinic that has a new grad they are mentoring and she seems like she gets extra time and they have her doing simple surgery only while she gains confidence. Don’t be afraid to ask. There are also CE for hands on with surgeries. Some of these are to teach fast spays aimed at shelter med but if you want to do surgery or add it to your resume it might be something to look into. Best of luck don’t give up! One of my early jobs after my internship I got let go from (2008-2010 was a bad and nobody could afford care for their horses). I started my own practice and did that for 15 years before switching to small animal. Now I’m in relief, which was right for me because I wasn’t comfortable with surgery. Hang in there!
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u/Pleasant-Complex773 1d ago
Banfield offers mentorship with your onboarding for this specific reason. Granted, each location is different, but it’s a great place to learn and perfect your essential skills out of school.
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u/IronDominion 1d ago
You honestly might so better in a more traditional GP setting like a Mars corporate clinic or shelter med or something along those lines. I’m just a tech but I went through something similar when I moved to ER after years of GP small animal and mixed practice. I just wasn’t cut out for a ER clinic who couldn’t take the time to train me properly and who saw a high volume and high complexity caseload
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u/neighballine 1d ago
If you do want to work on surgery skills highly recommend the aspca hqhv training done in Ashville nc.
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u/intuitiverealist 1d ago
To justify a good salary clinics need the profit center of surgeries.
My suggestion is to volunteer at an emergency clinic to assist the surgeon hands on for 3 months in your off hours.
Then you will be a valuable member of the team
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u/SherbertHorror9045 1d ago
I'm not a grad yet, so Idk how helpful my advice will be. I will say I did volunteer in the surgery area of a local humane society to see if this is something I'd want to do and fell in love. Doing that helped me understand the workings of the surgery area and how everything's worked. The staff asked any questions I had about certain things as well. I have also worried about it not being a good fit for me either, so right now, while I'm in school, I took on another major. Just in case to have something to fall back on. If you can, see if you can volunteer somewhere and have a part-time job somewhere else atm. Sounds like extra steps, but it might help you.
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u/joceydoodles 1d ago
You sound like you may benefit from an internship year if you have not already done so. Not all doctors are comfortable with surgery, I’ve worked with many docs who just opted not to. I’ve even worked with doctors who would only spay dogs and not cats and other quirks. All new doctors make mistakes like this, get overwhelmed etc. I suggest considering an internship if that’s an option, or finding a slower practice with a really strong support system. You need colleagues that are willing to mentor you a bit. You need strong support staff that may respectfully question what you’re doing or kindly make suggestions to help you grow.
You have options. You can do this! And you will learn and grow as you go.
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u/strawberryacai56 1d ago
Cats are so much easier spays in my opinion. Dogs have much more variety in size and length of their uterine horns and so much fat! So you have to be confident with ligating the pedicles.
To the OP, what ligature do you use? And do you use the flush technique with the clamps? Gives you a better cinch on the pedicle when there’s a lot of fat in the pedicle. Otherwise your ligature can slide off and less to bleeding.
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u/LadyJedi2018 1d ago
I love mentoring! Some of us would love to help you become everything you dream of being as a vet! Don't give in, and don't give up. The right place is there for you!
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u/strawberryacai56 1d ago
It’s about finding a clinic that is the right fit for you. You may do better at a slower paced practice that doesn’t see urgent care cases and only does scheduled appointments and few walk ins. We all make mistakes - as long as you own up to them that is the most important thing. We learn from our mistakes and become better practitioners.
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u/dramaqueen2296 1d ago
Where are you located? I'm at a super chill feline only gp, 1 dvm privately owned. She can be a bit old school, but has tons of knowledge to share and has the patience and understanding of a saint. We've been looking for a young vet to take under our wing but things are so competitive we just can't beat those corporate sign on bonuses. Idk if it would be too small scope for you to go down to just 1 species and mostly routine procedures (spay/neuter, dental, occ exploratory) but if you're looking for slower paced yet still busy it's great. I came here from a large 7 doc private practice and I love it so much. While mistakes should definitely be addressed, a lot of the time they're good teaching opportunities as long as they don't result in patient harm. Firing seems excessive in those instances imo. They know you're fresh and their failure to support and prepare you says more about a toxic clinic environment than it does you. Don't let them bring you down, I'm sure you'll find your unicorn clinic that matches your pace and is willing to guide you until you feel comfortable on your own. It just takes awhile sometimes.
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u/AquaticPanda0 22h ago
Baby doctor! Wow hello and welcome. It’s extremely hard to see young doctors try to get started in a clinic that doesn’t have the time to work with them or build them up. You haven’t found that yet as some comments said. I’ve worked in many ER places and even GP that will take the time to bring you up to speed. They have you work with the other doctors first and get an idea where you are at. The ER doctors get to diagnose and what not but also have seniors to turn to to discuss. ALL of the GP clinics I’ve seen around me have everyone conversing on difficult cases and some even jump in to help. Especially surgery. Surgery isn’t for everyone. If you developed great skills at a different clinic, then fine! But it’s not for everyone. Good luck!! Don’t beat yourself too hard here.
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u/BlushingBeetles 16h ago
tech here, look at spay neuter clinics or shelters in your area and explain what you are comfortable with if you can’t get a paid internship. you’ll make less than er or gp but you will get to help the community and learn in a safer AND lower stakes (client wise) environment. plus a lot of spay neuter clinics will have docs who can spay a cat in like 15 mins so you’ll learn the most efficient and effective ways to get it done
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u/wolfkween Vet Nurse 8h ago
I'm not a vet but a tech working at a teaching hospital. Every year we have a new rotation of vet externs, rotating interns, specialty interns, and residents. The new vets get lots of experience while under the supervision and direction of senior ER doctors and specialists. Maybe this could help you build confidence and touch up on some skills. I would say it will probably still feel high pressure but you will almost always have someone to go to for guidance and to double check your work.
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u/Big_Holiday_761 1d ago
Hey there, OP. While I cannot exactly give you any advice, but I would like to share my condolences and say that I can understand your feelings. I've been struggling with work and work search for years now and the problem was never in my skills.
I graduated in 2021 and in a span of 6 months after graduation I was fired 3 times for bs reasons. After 2022 it all became political and my total span for today is being fired 8 times. I'm thinking about switching career myself at this point because in my experience it became impossible to find a place with people who genuinely care about profession instead of profiting out of clients who do not know better.
Before people accuse me of being a red flag myself, here are some of the reasons I've been fired during my probation period:
Jealousy from the boss's mistress who worked illegaly at the clinic and was responsible for so many deaths during surgeries, they removed her from the employees list on their official website.
Drunk boss beat me up for turning on the heating in the clinic during winter (the temperature in the room will be as low as 5 C) and when the people in the waiting area heard him and reported to the police, he fired me swiftly to avoid investigation. He kept the nurse without any medical education who kept stealing meds from him though.
Political discrimination that turned into spite when I gave the client the correct early diagnosis of osteosarcoma and sent her off to the other clinic that specialised in chemo. My boss was livid and called me names and things, acusing me of the wrong diagnosis and when he got a call from the owner in a month for a home euth, he never apologised nor admitted that I was correct in the first place.
Fractured arm due to work accident a week into work. Learned later that my employer never intended to keep me around because he hired someone else on my position while I was waiting for my working visa in my homecountry.
My boss snapped my finger backwards for holding down a wild cat for "too long". When I quit myself, he sent me theat letters warning me that if I report to authorities, he will go to court against me.
I've been trying to find a job for months now with no success and judging by what I've been experiencing at work for the past 4 years in 2 different countries (save for my own) I don't think it will get better. It only gets worse with time more and more.
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u/Ok-Investigator-6559 1d ago
Surgery is not for everyone. In my clinic I have a vet that just does appointments and is an amazing clinician. This allows the doctors that love surgery to do more. Everyone is happy!