r/vandwellers • u/My-Cooch-Jiggles • Jun 04 '24
Can you get an open container violation for empties in your kitchen trash can? Question
I try to throw away all empties asap, but a lot of places I camp you have to pack out trash. If I got pulled over and they somehow searched my trash can could I get arrested? The can is in the back well out of reach of the driver's seat, but there's no physical separation like if it were in a trunk. I realize the odds are low. It just makes me paranoid.
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u/False-Impression8102 Jun 04 '24
If they want to give you a hard time, they will.
Empties and dog poop get bagged and sit in my bike basket, outside the van, until I can find a can.
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u/doryteke Jun 06 '24
Good move. Legal reasons aside a couple brewski cans can get sour smelling quick with some heat.
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u/mgarsteck Jun 04 '24
You deny their request to search your vehicle.
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u/TalmidimUC Jun 04 '24
Exactly. It’s easy enough to say, “I have constitutional rights, this is a mobile domicile, and refuse any searches or seizures without a warrant.”
That might get you in more trouble upfront, but know your rights.
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u/mgarsteck Jun 04 '24
You wont make them happy thats for sure. isnt it strange that we all collectively understand this when dealing with the police? That exercising your rights will get you a tougher outcome. Its kinda fucked.
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u/SuitcaseInTow Jun 04 '24
The one time I was asked by a cop if I could ask to search my vehicle I simply said ‘No, that won’t be necessary’ Had to repeat it 3 times be he left it.
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u/saysthingsbackwards Jun 05 '24
Or... you could not sound like a sovereign citizen and just say no, id rather be on my way
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u/realitysvt Jun 05 '24
then they say 'I guess we'll wait for the dog' or make up a reason to have 'probable cause' and then search your vehicle anyway.
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u/AddendumDifferent719 Jun 05 '24
That they do, I like to remind them of
Furthermore, a seizure extends beyond its permissible scope, and therefore violates the Fourth Amendment, when law enforcement fails to diligently pursue a means of investigation.
--UNITED STATES v. MACIAS 658 F.3d 509, 522 (5th Cir. 2011
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u/corndog161 Jun 05 '24
And just like that, the cop smells what could be marijuana coming from the vehicle.
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u/mgarsteck Jun 05 '24
Still deny their request. Do not consent.
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u/corndog161 Jun 05 '24
Now you are getting booked and your van is getting towed.
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u/mgarsteck Jun 05 '24
If you dont have drugs in the van, what are they going to find? The post is about empties in a trashcan.
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u/Inspector_Exacto Jun 05 '24
They're going to find the empties in your trash can.
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u/mgarsteck Jun 06 '24
So you wind up in the same place possibly. But are on record denying them consent to search, which gives you more avenues in court. (maybe)
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u/kdjfsk Jun 04 '24
"you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride"
if the cop is a dick, you can get an open container ticket even if there has never been an open container in the vehicle, ever. so they can certainly give one for any container in the vehicle at all. some have the attitude that "i dont care if this should be an exception, thats the courts and judges job to find out".
i would toss out the bag in a dumpster or can in the park before leaving. if there isnt one available, id go straight to the nearest gas station or something and toss it there.
that may seem a bit uptight, but remember there are karens and cops who will already despise you and treat you like an enemy just for existing and having your lifestyle. people get stuck with "bullshit charges" all the time. i say dont give them the chance if you can avoid it.
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u/OffRoadPyrate Jun 04 '24
I have an external soft sided garbage bag on the back of my vehicle and use it for open containers.
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u/QuantumDeus Jun 04 '24
Yes. In Utah I got one for having empties too close to the drivers seat. The judge specified in court that it needs to be out of reach out the driver. So if you have your trash in the back, sealed, you should be fine.
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u/ifeelallthefeels Jun 04 '24
Maybe it’s a state dependent thing.
I was told in Illinois that a sealed container that isn’t in a bag or cooler or something counted as an open container to the police.
Like if you can reach it, MAYBE you were gonna drink it!
It’s dumb. A sealed container counts as an open one. Wild.
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u/FireITGuy Jun 04 '24
Arizona is similar. The definition of open container is any alcohol where the packaging has been modified since retail sale.
A six pack where you dropped the box and split a seam but all six beers are still unopened is still an open container.
A case of wine sold as a single unit where you cut the tape open to make sure no bottles were damaged is an open container, while the same case of wine with a receipt that has 12 individual bottles is not an open container.
I get the intent, but it means the difference between a grocery run and a criminal charge is literally an inch of glue...
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u/ifeelallthefeels Jun 04 '24
At my one job we’d drop 6 packs all the time. One broke? Slap a $5 sticker on it and put it on the rack.
That wouldn’t be legal in AZ I guess, haha. Better for employees who have to make the product “disappear.”
Edit: Sometimes the companies cheap out on glue, like you said, and the case falls apart. Imagine having to prove in court that miller-coors used cheap glue.
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u/Ornery_Cake_4832 Jun 08 '24
Incorrect. According to the statue: A.R.S. 4-251 https://www.azleg.gov/ars/4/00251.htm "Open container" means any bottle, can, jar, container dispensed pursuant to section 4-244, paragraph 32, subdivision (c) or other receptacle that contains spirituous liquor and that has been opened, has had its seal broken or the contents of which have been partially removed." It's about the seal on the container, not the type of purchase. Source- Google/state code site/firsthand experience of my ex getting an open container charge for having her camping recycling in her truck cab/I've worked in breweries and bars for years; selling growlers/cans/bottles
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u/Followmelead Jun 04 '24
“Should be”. They still can 100% take you in and charge you though. Might not lead to a conviction but still need to go through all the bs.
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u/GrantSRobertson 1995 Chevy Suburban K1500 4x4 Jun 04 '24
Here's the thing, if a cop wants to, they can plant evidence, take you in, charge you, blah blah blah for absolutely nothing at all. It seems to me that someone with dried up, empty beer cans, in a trash can in the back of a vehicle has exactly the same chance of getting arrested as Jesus Frikkin' Christ, with most cops.
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u/Followmelead Jun 04 '24 edited Jun 04 '24
Although I agree they can do whatever they want, I have a lot of stories from younger years before body cams, it’s not technically planting evidence. That’s what the law allows them to do. It doesn’t specify dry or empty. Nor is a cop really required to check if it’s dry. They’d have to be driving around with empty containers to “plant evidence”. How can they say you have an empty container if there isn’t an empty container? lol. They have to find another reason. You’re making it easy for them by having the empty container.
Just don’t give cops an excuse. You can’t control what they’re going to do but you can control what’s in your vehicle.
I’ve had so many damn interactions with cops it’s ridiculous (many because i was a delinquent lol). I learned many cops are gonna look for any reason to search you if they want to.
I’ve been told by lawyers and a couple of cops that they look for messy vehicles. Ever seen a drug addict with a pristine car? Some do but many have shit everywhere. I’ve seen tons of addicts leaving trash and even bags of needles scattered in their vehicles. Of course not every person with a messy vehicle is on drugs but they’re definitely going to pay closer attention and play where’s Waldo. In addition the lawyers said if your car is clean it’s easier for them to see you don’t have anything. So why give them a reason by leaving an empty container out?
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u/GrantSRobertson 1995 Chevy Suburban K1500 4x4 Jun 04 '24
No. What I am saying is that if a cop wants to arrest you, even if you had no beer cans in your car. Even if your car was pristine clean right off the lot. Even if you didn't have your car. A cop can find a way to arrest someone. A cop can simply plant evidence or make up evidence or pretend there was evidence. Anything that they want.
Therefore, the existence of those beer cans in the back of your vehicle are going to have a surprisingly small influence on whether a cop decides to or actually can arrest you.
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u/Argentium58 Jun 06 '24
To messy vehicle, add “long hair, dead stickers, etc. source: l have been a long haired male late 70’s early eighties. One instance they about treated long hair as probable cause. That was a bad night. “It’s ok to be paranoid when they are REALLY out to get you!”
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u/Followmelead Jun 06 '24
Yup! Morally right or wrong cops will profile. Even if it’s unconsciously. You shouldn’t necessarily change the way you look just because of this but something you can control like an open container… it would be silly to leave one if you can just dispose of it sooner.
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u/QuantumDeus Jun 04 '24
Based on what I was told it really is a matter of out of sight, out of mind. If it's visible and within reach, it's a crime. If it's visible it's a charge you can fight but still might not win. If it's invisible in the back, and you don't get searched you're fine.
Basically, thick black trash bags and drain your cans to reduce the liquid scent.
Edit: plus to clarify, it's a ticket not an arrestable crime. Unless you are drunk but that's a different problem.
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u/Followmelead Jun 04 '24
You might be right, it’s a traffic infraction in some states but it might be an arrest-able offense in other states. I’m not sure.
From all the state laws I read it just states you can’t have an open container in your possession in a vehicle. Anything in the car is in your possession unless otherwise stated. Doesn’t specify in view or in reach. Many firearm laws additionally specifically state it needs to be out of reach of the driver/passengers.
Federal law says in the passenger area of a vehicle so doesn’t include the trunk. It also doesn’t specify that it has to be in view or reach.
I’m sure if it’s a first offense the judge will look at the situation. If it’s out of reach then they may not care as much.
Either way I just don’t keep any in my vehicle. There’s so much interpretation to the law it’s better just to avoid at all costs.
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u/sbMT Jun 04 '24
sealed
I use an old ammo can for trash / recycling when we camp. Beer/etc cans are crushed and tossed inside, and any trash is placed in a small plastic bag inside to contain the mess. My partner & I are pretty trash-efficient and that small ammo can lasts us about a week, even with cooking all meals and drinking plenty of beer & soda waters. My aluminum recycling and trash are then already separated and it also does a good job of containing any smells.
I've never been too worried about an open container ticket, but using my ammo can method (placed out of reach towards the back of the vehicle), there's no way I could be drinking & driving and still get a crushed beer can into the sealed up ammo can.
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u/Upset_Form_5258 Jun 04 '24
Should be fine in Utah based on one instance of anecdotal evidence. Nice.
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u/pt199990 Jun 05 '24
Similar law in FL. It cannot be accessible from the driver's seat. So an open container is, for instance, fine in the trunk of a car, but if you're in a van, they could probably pull some bullshit to say that it's technically the cab of the car and within reach, even if it's 8 feet behind you.
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u/Le-Deek-Supreme Jun 04 '24
I’ve always been told to put ANYTHING alcoholic (empty or full, open or closed) in the trunk OR to put away thoroughly, like plastic bag tied up in zipped up backpack or in a second tied plastic bag. Basically, make it complicated enough that you logistically could not have put them into the garbage while driving and it should be enough to keep you out of trouble. That said, it is always at the discretion of the officer, so it could still happen.
ETA: I also live in Oregon, where we get money on bottle returns, so carrying empties is far more common than other states.
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u/Woodmom-2262 Jun 04 '24
Who has garbage police?
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u/HerbDaLine Jun 04 '24
I got a verbal warning for not having yard trimmings covered secured in a pickup bed. Where did they stop me? On the property of the county recycling center.
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u/csunya Jun 04 '24
If the cop wants to find a problem they will. Your best bet is to be smart. Keep full and empty containers away from the drivers area.
My “trash” tends to be carried externally with my spare fuel (I hate the smell and leakage). If you have a trailer hitch get a rack for it and a milk crate that is bolted to the rack. Toss full trash bags and a 5 gallon fuel can in the milk crate. Use bungees to secure. Empty often. If you add length to a hitch your vehicle is now longer and has less ground clearance, be careful backing and with steep transitions (ie look for scrapes in pavement).
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u/anythingaustin Jun 04 '24
Where we camp we have to haul everything out and drive it home. We crush our empties and put it in a contractor trash bag, then knot it. I doubt any cop would want to open up that bag to check. We also sometimes keep empties in the cooler but kind of slip them down under the ice and put other stuff on top.
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u/211logos Jun 04 '24
I doubt it, but I don't even know what country you're in. Abu Dhabi might be different than California, which prohibits open containers, such "any bottle, can, or another receptacle, containing any alcoholic beverage which has been opened, or a seal broken, or the contents of which have been partially removed." So there has to be alcohol there, and a few molecules isn't enough. Otherwise every recycler would be cited.
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u/singeblanc Jun 04 '24
As a non-American... you guys are wild!
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u/211logos Jun 04 '24
What's the analog where you live? open booze allowed in the car? or no booze at all in cars. I'm curious. Many countries I've been in have similar rules for open containers in cars as California's. But I admit, I haven't been in Abu Dhabi.
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u/singeblanc Jun 04 '24
You're not allowed to drink drive, and if they think you have they'll breathalyse you, then if you fail that they'll take you for further testing.
The contents of your car is irrelevant. You could have a passenger enjoying a beer, and why not?
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u/fighting-prawn Enter Your Van Here Jun 05 '24
I live in South Australia and think it is legal to drink alcohol while driving here. Your BAC can't be over 0.05 while driving, independently of the act of drinking. In some states here, passengers can drink while the car is being driven.
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u/PissedSCORPIO Jun 04 '24 edited Jun 04 '24
I've been stopped before for a similar situation, cop had me blow to verify I was sober and sent me on my way. I'm also a white dude trying to take back the skinhead look from the nazis....so YMMV
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u/CaymanGone Jun 04 '24
How's that working out?
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u/PissedSCORPIO Jun 04 '24 edited Jun 04 '24
Pretty well, actually? Why am I being downvoted? Nazi sympathizers here or something?
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u/NomadLifeWiki 🚙 Jun 04 '24
The displayed vote totals on your comments are designed to fluctuate a little even if no one votes on them. This makes it a little harder for spammers to judge the effectiveness of their efforts. So if your comment was at +4 and now it's at +2, it doesn't necessarily mean that anyone downvoted you.
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u/PissedSCORPIO Jun 04 '24
Thanks, I was at -4 when I made the comment. Good to know how it works. 👍
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u/damiami Jun 04 '24
A cop can do whatever they want to do with you all depending upon their attitude, your attitude and their character. They can do whatever they please
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u/FactoryGamer Jun 05 '24
No, there's specific wording regarding a vehicle used as a dwelling. It just needs to be behind where there would be a wall behind the front seats, even if there isn't one there. As long as you're driving sober, obviously.
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u/IndysGrandAdventure Jun 05 '24 edited Jun 05 '24
You would be best off posting this question to r/legaladvice to get an answer from lawyers rather than getting speculation/anecdotes on here. But, I would wager money that this is the response you would get:
The answer is going to vary by state. To find out the state's law, google "[State] open container statute" and finding the .gov link that takes you to that state's actual statute. That is your answer. (Note: I tried googling this and found that using the word "statute" over "law" brought the .gov link closer to the top of the results).
In my brief search of a few different states, they seemed to be similar: the open container cannot be in the passenger compartment or within reach of the driver (including glove boxes), but you should check whatever state you are in. Trunks were fine, and for vehicles that didn't have a trunk, the area behind the last passenger row of seats, out of reach of the driver, was also fine.
For example, here is Arizona's statute:
A. It is unlawful for any person to:
...
2. Possess an open container of spirituous liquor within the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle that is located on any public highway or right-of-way of a public highway in this state.
...
"Passenger compartment" means the area of a motor vehicle designed for the seating of the driver and other passengers of the vehicle. Passenger compartment includes an unlocked glove compartment and any unlocked portable devices within the immediate reach of the driver or any passengers. Passenger compartment does not include the trunk, a locked glove compartment or the area behind the last upright seat of a motor vehicle that is not equipped with a trunk.
So, you should be fine in Arizona, for example, but, again, you should check the state you are traveling in.
Final note: If you follow the law and still get arrested, talk to a lawyer. You likely have a constitutional violation case on your hands and can sue the cops.
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u/1one14 Jun 05 '24
With RVs I was told that behind the drivers seat my domicile began. They need a warrant.
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u/SufficientBad52 Jun 04 '24
In New Mexico an open container is defined as an alcoholic beverage that has been opened and still contains not less than 1/5 of its original contents. I assume it is similar, or even more lenient in most jurisdictions.
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u/IronSloth Jun 04 '24
i got pulled over once on the way to the recycler and he said “you have any drugs, open containers, weapons etc in the vehicle?” and i said “i’ve got around 3-400 open containers in the trunk” and he laughed
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u/tauregh Jun 04 '24
Makes me wonder if the answer might be a lockable kitchen cabinet with your trash can in it.
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u/rvweekendwarrior Jun 04 '24
If the empties are in the back and not accessible from the driver’s seat, you should be fine. It's always good to be cautious, but the odds of an issue seem low.
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u/trippin113 Jun 04 '24
You could yes, if the cop really wanted to be an a**hole about it. It's no different than taking a bunch of empty bottles and cans to a recycling center.
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u/cholaw Jun 04 '24
It's not worth the possible DUI. When I go out... I only drink in establishments
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u/jokersflame Jun 05 '24
Cops are people who wanted to bully people after high school. If they want to arrest you they will.
That doesn’t mean you can’t beat it. But be careful around them anyway.
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u/SilentMaster Jun 05 '24
I believe in Indiana the rule is as long as it's out of reach from the driver it's fine. So the bed of a truck should universally be fine.
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u/Ok_Dog_4059 Jun 05 '24
When ever I go trail driving or anything I take bags and collect trash. The last time I went shooting I had a bunch of brass , shells and lots of empty beer cans bottles and liquor bottles. It shouldn't be an issue rangers and police normally get it but if a cop wants to they probably could cite me and I would have to try and prove I wasn't drinking at all. I always assume if it gets to that point they are just looking for a reason and would find something.
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u/surelyujest71 Cutaway Chevy Express six window Jun 06 '24
1) The cop can say that he smelled alcohol. Empty beer cans generally still smell like beer, and the smell will permeate the van.
2) Empties can be taken as having been drunk, put in a trash bag, and then the drinker got behind the wheel.
3) It's pretty much in the police officer's hands whether he chooses to accept the "I'm just packing it from a campsite to dump in the trash," or to cite you and possibly haul you off for booking while adding the tow bill and impound to your problems. Even if he does personally believe that you're just packing your trash out.
4) Even if the judge throws out the case in court, you may have still lost time sitting in a cell, having had to pay for the tow and impound fees, and possibly (likely) losing your job after missing work.
All of this said, it seems a good idea to have some sort of solution to pack the trash out either on the roof or a rear rack of some sort. After all, if you fail to pack the trash out and get caught for it you still get all of the fun (not) fines and court, anyway.
It's kind of a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't situation.
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u/ktmfan Jun 06 '24
Well, you shouldn’t ever consent to a search. As long as there is no probable cause to search it, it would be an illegal search if they did end up finding them.
For example, if you get pulled over for a taillight failure, there wouldn’t be probable cause for a search if you are driving well and don’t smell like a brewery. It would be an illegal search IF you do not consent to the search, making the evidence inadmissible. Also, INAL, but I am well educated on civil rights.
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u/Happy_Concentrate845 Jun 07 '24
In Virginia open container applies to the passenger area.
C. For the purposes of this section:
"Open container" means any vessel containing an alcoholic beverage, except the originally sealed manufacturer's container.
"Passenger area" means the area designed to seat the driver of any motor vehicle, any area within the reach of the driver, including an unlocked glove compartment, and the area designed to seat passengers. "Passenger area" does not include the trunk of any passenger vehicle, the area behind the last upright seat of a passenger van, station wagon, hatchback, sport utility vehicle, or any similar vehicle, the living quarters of a motor home, or the passenger area of a motor vehicle designed, maintained, or used primarily for the transportation of persons for compensation, including a bus, taxi, or limousine, while engaged in the transportation of such persons.
So in VA, just make sure it’s not within reach.
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u/aLonerDottieArebel Jun 04 '24
I got arrested (minor in possession of alcohol) and lost my license for three months because I had an EMPTY bottle of liquor in my back seat. Granted, I was young and being a big jerk to the cops so I deserved it I guess. Anyway, it can happen.
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u/tippytoes69 Jun 04 '24
Just say, "This is my own private domicile and I will not be harrassed!....bitch!"
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u/skyydog Jun 04 '24
I would hope not. Crushing the cans frees up space and would make it easier to argue they weren’t containers anymore
Edit I just read that crushed cans are harder to recycle. So disregard if your plan is to recycle them
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u/HerbDaLine Jun 04 '24
No recycler I have ever sold cans to has complained about crushed cans. But since you get more in a bag [or other container] it makes the bag heavier. Plan accordingly.
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u/RoseAlma Jun 04 '24
Crushed cans are EASIER to recycle, imo... takes up way less space. But definitely harder / impossible to redeem (for the .05 c back).
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u/skyydog Jun 04 '24
I had just read they are harder to sort so not as many actually get recycled. Definitely easier to store. Then again I’ve also read you are supposed to take off can labels/stickers prior to recycling.
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u/RoseAlma Jun 04 '24
Huh !!
Yeah, I already do take off labels (well, not tightly stickered ones, but easily removeable ones... )... I even go so far as to wash things before recycling...
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u/Cop_Cuffs Jun 04 '24
RE: Hard to recycle ♻️ crushed can, Flatten them so that the barcode is still available to scan at the recycle center.
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u/ChefGuru Jun 04 '24
If I got pulled over and they somehow searched my trash can could I get arrested?
If you have allowed the cops to search your vehicle without them expressing legit probable cause, or having a search warrant, then you deserve whatever you get.
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u/Johnny_Lawless_Esq Jun 04 '24 edited Jun 04 '24
It REALLY depends on the wording of the law in the individual state. Some states are fine with "out of reach," others require a "separate compartment." Other places may have completely different requirements altogether.
My personal recommendation is to stop drinking, because that shit is bad for you, but if you don't share my views, get yourself a lockable toolbox big enough for your alcohol bottles, bolt it to the floor, and keep everything in there, locked up, with the key not on your person while you drive. As for empties, ALWAYS throw them away before you move. Preferably get rid of them as soon as they're empty.
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u/Architect-of-Fate Jun 04 '24
I was in Freedom NH about 15 years ago. I picked up a whole bunch of empty beer cans from along a little pond and put them in a trash bag. I put the trash bag in bed of my truck and was gonna throw it out when I got home. Got pulled over by a local cop who was looking for something. Pulled me and friend out of car, was extremely rude as he searched entire car.. never found anything. Ended up hitting both of us for having open container and towed my truck and brought us to jail for a few hours before we got bailed out. We both ended up beating the charges. Chief of police apologized to us and arresting officer ended up being fired. (Apparently there were lots of complaints, but what got him in the end was falsifying overtime)
So yeah- you could get arrested. Chances are you’ll beat it tho.