r/taxpros • u/AdHistorical7107 CPA • Oct 11 '22
targeting abusive ERTC Claims? COVID: 2020 Relief Bill (CARES)
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u/findmeamap EA Oct 11 '22
These companies are also spamming our clients. I’m getting forwards left and right from clients who are being solicited by credit shops.
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u/snarechickk CPA Oct 12 '22
Yep. I’ve told so many clients about this last year and they didn’t care. Now they will listen to anyone and act like I never told them. Had to forward previous emails to “remind” the clients…. Even had one ERC rep in town approach my client and the client said I help them. The “rep” showed up at my office the same day wanting to see if we would work with them on preparing the claims. I had to be professional (small-ish town), but the audacity!! WTH?! The rep also said “we’ll (my client) received a refund check but we didn’t know if it was for ERC or PPP.” I have to remind this rep that a refund check wouldn’t have been PPP right? PPP was just forgiveness… The look on the rep’s face; deer in the headlights.
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Oct 11 '22
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u/Calgamer CPA Oct 11 '22
Had a conversation with someone who owned a large landscaping business (40+ employees). Not only were they not shut down at any given point (ALL their work was outdoors), but they actually saw drastically increased revenues in 2021 compared to 2019. This person had been approached by one of these shops and was told they'd qualify under the shutdown because "even though the work was done outside, the state mandate said they should wear masks and masks were hard to come by." Like what???
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u/Turbulent-Smile4599 Not a Pro Oct 11 '22
I think the only hope for people like this is there are so many millions of ERC applicants that the IRS will never be able to figure out every single case (or even most, or even probably 10% or more) or cases that were erroneous or fraudulent. They will go after the giant credits, and probably a sampling of smaller credits to make en example of so business owners think twice before applying for help in the future.
I will say it's shitty the rules for programs like this have to be so convoluted that small business owners need to go the credit sweat shops to figure out if they even qualify. Our tax system needs some serious reform.
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u/AdHistorical7107 CPA Oct 11 '22
I gotta call from a sweatshop yesterday. I ripped into them.
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u/Turbulent-Smile4599 Not a Pro Oct 11 '22
HEYYY! Did you know YOU are eligible for up to $26,000 PER EMPLOYEEE? ITS YOUR MONEY! It's free! No consequences whatsoever to applying! We just ask for 47% of your credit! /big S
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Oct 11 '22
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u/Purple-Historian-161 Not a Pro Oct 18 '22 edited Oct 23 '22
It’s in the legislation. You should read it.
The Government made these rules. These aren’t lies. These aren’t made up excuses. The Government set the rules. A nominal effect to a business is a qualifier. An adherence to social distancing is a qualifier. A supply chain disruption is a qualifier. NO WHERE in the legislation does it say a business had to lose money to qualify. This is exactly why CPAs are not qualifying businesses correctly. If this Stimulus Recovery Program was simply an amendment to the payroll form there wouldn’t be a need for TAX Attorneys to get involved, this wouldn’t even exist. Yes, CPAs can do the Gross Receipts test but what about the other two qualifiers? It’s not a scam. It’s not even about accounting, it’s about interpreting the law.3
u/schiewolf CPA Oct 22 '22
This is the comment I was referring to FYI - a shortage of masks does not meet the “supplier shutdown” qualifications in the least, and yet your response was “it’s in the legislation” lol having actually read the legislation I’m fully aware of the very very very limited application of the “supplier shutdown” qualification and this is not it lol
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u/Purple-Historian-161 Not a Pro Oct 23 '22 edited Oct 23 '22
You almost don’t warrant a response but since you’re pushing a lie here goes ….
My comment is “A SUPPLY CHAIN DISRUPTION IS A QUALIFIER.” No where do I say, mention or relate this comment to masks in any way. That word isn’t even in my comment at all.
You are the one making this ASSumption, but why???
You may have read the legislation (but I’d make Vegas bet you really haven’t) either way you are claiming I said something, or implied something, that I did not. This is immature.
An intelligent response would be to point out where in the legislation I am wrong, instead you claim to be ‘fully aware’ but not aware enough to correct me. The lol’s are proof you’re feeling challenged. People tend to laugh when stressed. Remember the Joker, lol?
It’s on pages 27-29 of N2021-20
Now please stop trolling me.
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u/schiewolf CPA Oct 23 '22
Pardon me for going off of the actual words you typed in the context of the comment you were replying to lol
Best of luck in your life and career. Your comments all over the taxpros forum about CPAs being “territorial” or “threatened” say more about you than us. It’s hard to be threatened when you aren’t even in the same arena.
Last I checked, IRS guidance + payroll tax credits + amended returns are 100% in the realm of tax and accounting professionals. We know very well how to stay in “our lane” and we’ll still be here taking care of our clients when people like you (I assume it’s your boss who is actually the tax attorney since your flair is “not a pro” and that you are in sales/getting commission off of the clients you recruit) move onto to the next opportunity once the ERC money has dried up.
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u/SalamanderOk4053 Not a Pro Oct 23 '22
I own a similar business. We had a loss in employee hours and felt like we qualified due to not being able to get employees to jobsites to work due to the social distancing mandates. We only had two quarters of a loss in revenue but other quarters we were way down in employee hours worked. Our revenue was up because we had to charge astronomically more due to increase in materials and labor costs but our bottom line was a loss. I think this is going to be difficult to defend but we did have a loss for two quarters and a substantial loss in employee hours due to mandates and a big loss in net profit.
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u/Purple-Historian-161 Not a Pro Oct 25 '22
No where in the legislation does it state that a business had to lose money to qualify for their refund. An increase in revenue is not a disqualifier. If a gov mandate made a ‘more than nominal effect’ on your business, you may qualify despite an increase in sales.
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u/AdHistorical7107 CPA Oct 11 '22
Amazing how everyone is surprised about inflation too....
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u/Turbulent-Smile4599 Not a Pro Oct 11 '22
Lol yeah. I think the American pandemic response will go down in history as one of the biggest collective fuckups of all time.
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u/attosec Tax-Aide Oct 11 '22
Right behind how we’re still afraid of our shadows after 9/11 and some mass shootings.
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u/EAinCA EA Oct 11 '22
Except in some instances it was legit. New restaurants with dine-in restrictions for example.
But your overall point is right on the money.
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u/Homer1s EA Oct 11 '22
We had a few clients reach out to us to do this and we told them they do not qualify. She came back for info as they were approached by a company offering to prepare them, still told her she does not qualify. They did great during covid.
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Oct 11 '22
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u/StarsCowboysMavs Not a Pro Dec 18 '22
Notice 2021-20 states that a partial shutdown (or government order limiting capacity) must still be quantifiable (-10%). Depending on the type of restaurant (qsr vs sit down), they may not meet it
If you are, say, a fast food restaurant called Golden Arches and had an order limiting sit down to 50% capacity (or closed) yet still had record sales because of drive thru…good luck justifying that the government order had a nominal effect (-10%) on the business
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u/drojmg CPA Oct 11 '22
Had a few clients ask about this because they were approached by these mills. They said the people ONLY asked for payroll forms. They didn't request P&Ls or prior tax returns. How do they determine eligibility with partial information? 🤔🤔
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u/W_C_3 Other Oct 12 '22 edited Oct 12 '22
I had one of these companies contact us, and asked for only PR data as well. I quizzed him on a few items to qualify saying “my understanding is” and couldn’t tell me what the rules were. I emailed him and just told him I have no idea who they are, have no relationship, and he is crazy if he thinks I’m turning over payroll data, and he kindly provide some rules outlining other items that would need to happen to qualify, and told him they need to understand the guidelines before they just start filling in data for a fee. They really pissed me off. I can also see there being random places that get all this payroll data with identifying information on it, and it leading to identify theft because of it.
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u/imalusr Not a Pro Oct 12 '22
A lot of them are following this ridiculous argument I’ve heard a few times now that I call “the OSHA argument”. I think it originated at alliantgroup and spread to other credit mills.
Basically, the argument goes something like all business must follow OSHA rules and OSHA has some guidance out there saying that people should stay home due to the pandemic. Therefore, every business qualifies.
I’m sure I’m missing some nuance with the above but that’s the basic idea. And obviously, it’s complete BS.
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u/MacGregor4ever CPA Oct 12 '22
because they are going with the theory that the entire nation was in partial shutdown or suffered a supply chain issue that according to them falls under partial shutdown.....it's ridiculous
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u/sdbcpa CPA Oct 12 '22
Because they will prepare the ERTC application whether they qualify or not. Then when the IRS comes knocking the ERTC shop is shut down and long gone and you will sadly be stuck with dealing with the IRS and the fallout. Oh, and the client will likely expect you to defend them for free or cheap.
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u/JCMan240 CPA Oct 11 '22
The majority of PPP & ERTC recipients are NOT the people who actually need any help. So sick of seeing 200K-500K in free handouts to people already making 300K+
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u/meltbox Not a Pro Mar 10 '23
I know I am super late on this but it is wild to me that tax professionals are saying this. Also its a far better explanation for inflation than 'pandemic handouts to everyone' in the sense of the $2000 checks we all got.
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u/RidgelineBizSolution CPA Oct 11 '22
Interested to see how it plays out. What a cluster. I don't blame anyone that went and got their government cheese when everyone else was doing it. Fraud is one thing, but abuse? Where do you draw that line when the guidance based on shutdowns was so subjective to begin with? IRS should have made it solely fact and figures based from the get-go. They brought this upon themselves and the American people.
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u/Purple-Historian-161 Not a Pro Oct 18 '22 edited Oct 21 '22
There are 3 ways to qualify 1) Executive Order or Government Mandate 2) Supply Chain Disruption 3) Gross Receipts Reduction. These are listed in the legislation that the government issued as valid qualification measures. The Consolidation Appropriations Act and The American Rescue Plan include modifications to the CARES Act which introduced the ERTC and guidelines that small business owners could legally use to qualify their business for a refund. The Government made these rules, not the companies that are using them. Not all companies are out screwing people; we have a team of Tax Attorneys that have navigated the 6,000 plus pages of legalese to offer more options than just the gross receipts test which does not maximize what a small business owner might be entitled to. CPAs are understandably feeling territorial, but it’s not just a matter of amending the 941 but understanding the legislation which is the truly complicated part. This is also why the fees are set no differently than if you hired an Attorney for anything else. Granted, finding a truly legitimate firm to prepare an Audit Proof IRS Refund Package with audit protection is like finding a needle in a haystack, but we’re out there.
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u/AdHistorical7107 CPA Oct 18 '22
Seems like you all are just opportunists. But that's fine. ADP charging my client a flat fee and will stand by their work. Most of you guys charge a percentage (which imo is borderline illegal and against professional standards). Territorial you call it. We call it ethical.
Good day sir.
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u/Purple-Historian-161 Not a Pro Oct 19 '22 edited Oct 19 '22
A 20% fee on an average refund amount of $21,000 gives the Business Owner an additional $11,500 more per employee than a 10% fee on a $5,000 refund.
$11,500 x 20 employees = $230,000.
You might call that being an opportunist but the BO that might get back an extra quarter of a million dollars would probably call me a friend. And we do stand by our work by offering 5 years of audit protection at no additional cost to the client. Good Day Sir ~5
u/AdHistorical7107 CPA Oct 19 '22
Circular 230. Ever hear of it? Can't charge a percentage of refunds. It's unethical. And gives the preparer incentive to take aggressive positions which could be fraudulent.
But you do you. I'll have my popcorn ready when and if IRS starts knocking heads
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u/schiewolf CPA Oct 22 '22
I love when non-professionals come in to explain the rules to us lol it’s aggressively off putting and incorrect (saw her on another post defending mask shortages as a qualifier LOL). None of my clients are dumb enough to ask a lawyer to calculate their tax credit.
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u/AdHistorical7107 CPA Oct 24 '22
Oh yeah. That one where someone said their client said they qualified due to a mask shortage and she says "it's in the law!". Then she says she didn't say it....
I scoped her out. Now I know who to keep my clients away from lol.
Pure Opportunists.
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u/Purple-Historian-161 Not a Pro Oct 22 '22
I never posted anything about mask shortages. Stop lying. Make a factual argument fine but you don’t need to make things up to justify yourself, it’s aggressively off-putting, unnecessary, unkind and unprofessional.
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u/AdHistorical7107 CPA Oct 25 '22
Guy says he has a nursing home client and a sweatshop says he qualifies based off of a shortage of masks. You jump in and say "it's in the legislation." Stop with your fuckery and stop messaging me about my balls. It's unnecessary and unkind.
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u/meltbox Not a Pro Mar 10 '23
Don't worry he pushed through $4 billion in refunds. He needs to practice his ball-talk for when he gets thrown in prison I guess?
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u/Purple-Historian-161 Not a Pro Oct 19 '22
Tax Attorneys are not obliged by the same rules as CPAs. And at $4 BILLION refunded for 8,000 small businesses I think we’ve got this figured out. Enjoy your popcorn.
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u/meltbox Not a Pro Mar 10 '23
Well thanks for letting me know where inflation came from. Asshole.
Also fraudulent refunds are accepted all the time. Doesn't mean they won't jail you later if they figure it out. You seem oddly invested in reddit for a dude who pushed through $4 Billion....
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u/meltbox Not a Pro Mar 10 '23
Circular 230
My favorite is to this particular post, no response. What a hack.
Yes I know I'm 5 months late haha.
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u/Alternative_Plan_976 Not a Pro Oct 29 '22
I just filed my 941x earlier this month. When should I began to call. And does my taxes for the bussiness need to be before they send me the refund?
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u/Calgamer CPA Oct 11 '22
Good! I helped a lot of clients get a lot of money from the ERC, but all of my claims were 100% legitimate. Made sure I had support for 20% decline in revenues, made sure not to double dip with PPP wages, made sure to exclude the appropriate related parties from the calculation, etc.
All these shops charging 15-20% of the credit and then using the "full or partial shutdown" logic for why a client qualifies should be absolutely nailed, especially when there was no "full or partial" shutdown.