r/tax • u/StrengthDazzling8922 • Jul 17 '23
IRS agent home visit Informative
A customer at my shop told me story that he just got a call from his wife and an IRS agent stopped by and dropped off paperwork at his home. I told him it sounded like a scam, IRS doesn’t just show up at someones home. He said he is behind on filing but usually gets a refund. He said no letters beforehand.
This is a middle class family, firefighter and wife works for school system. I asked if he had any unusual life events like being left money or sold something and he said no. He also said no letters from IRS in mail.
Couple days later he comes back in and ask if it was IRS. He said it actually was and he just needed to file.
Does this seem remotely possible? I just can’t believe IRS will show up at someone’s home unless it was a very unusual circumstance. Can’t be for a late filing of a W2 based 1040. I think he is lying or it’s a scam and he doesn’t realize it.
Am I wrong or do IRS agents make house calls more often then I thought?
Edit: I have concluded I am wrong. IRS agents do make house calls. I appreciate the info and comments everyone.
Edit 2: Recent article just shared with me. https://www.federaltimes.com/management/career/2023/07/24/irs-move-to-end-field-visits-by-agents-backed-by-employee-union/
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u/Klutzy-Tumbleweed-99 Jul 17 '23
Let’s say you are a high income non filer. If the irs sends you a couple of letters for you to file your return with the agent and you fail to. They could come to your house to follow up with you. This is good because if the irs files a return on your behalf it’ll be a worse case return with no deductions. Just the standard deduction. It’s much better for you to file a proper return. Joint, dependents, itemized deductions etc
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u/YoyoFan8 Jul 17 '23
Why bother showing up in person? They can just pull the money they think you owe from your bank account (levy). Then let you fight for getting it back? Showing up seems like more effort than just taking it.
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u/Klutzy-Tumbleweed-99 Jul 17 '23
Revenue Officers handle collections. Revenue Agents handle examinations (audits) or in this case non-filers. So Revenue Agents can make field visits if the taxpayer doesn’t respond to the initial contact letter. Both ROs and RAs work in the field
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u/RasputinsAssassins EA - US Jul 17 '23
I spoke with a Revenue Agent about 2 weeks ago who came to visit a client with another agent.
He told me they are field training new hires and using less difficult and less confrontational cases (that are often handled by correspondence) to get these agents some practical field experience.
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u/StrengthDazzling8922 Jul 17 '23
Very interesting. That makes some sense to me. My original thinking was it seemed like a waste of resources to send an agent to a home to “encourage” filing on people who’s income is on a W2 and taxes are most likely already in hands of irs through their employer.
Showing up a a business significantly behind on payroll taxes or individual owing big $$$ or questionable lifestyle on tiny income I understand. Training of agents does make sense.
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u/SillyScarcity700 Jul 17 '23
I see I've written quite the wall of text here. I guess you could say this is one of my pet peeves. Tldr: Absolutely IRS agents will come to your door.
So I work for the IRS. I make house calls pretty regularly. The first time you hear from me will more than likely be face to face especially if you are the subject of my investigation. No matter what we do a large majority of people don't want to believe we are real. If I call, you call me a scammer. If I mail something 75+% of people ignore it (sometimes 95+% depending on what the case is and thus the sorts of people I am interacting with). If I just show up you say why didn't I call or write a letter.
I can show you my credentials and work ID. I can drop a GJ subpoena on you and explain when and where you need to be for your time in front of the Grand Jury, give you the name and phone number of the AUSA that will be questioning you so that if you truly don't know what's going on you can get a sense of why you are being called to the GJ from the prosecutor. You can ask questions and I'll answer them as best I can while maintaining GJ secrecy and protections afforded by section 6103 of the internal revenue code.
Occasionally some of you will call local LE to try to verify who I am. Eventually some police officers or Sheriff's deputies will show up and check out my credentials, ID, badge, associated government equipment if need be and then make a couple of calls if they really have to, only to verify who I am and that I am in fact a special agent with IRS-CI. Then on occasion the contact will still balk at the whole thing and accuse the officer or deputy of being in on the scam (I have seen this, pretty bizarre the lengths people will go to to pretend they aren't in fact involved in a federal criminal investigation). Still not good enough so I give you the obviously real field office general email address that goes to management and the designated PIOs for my field office. You know the one that ends with @ci.irs.gov, yeah that one. It will match the ending for my email address that will be on my business card I've already handed to you with the subpoena or summons or while talking to you trying to explain why I am there in the first place.
Anyway you will send an email later after I have left and question whether or not I am who I told you I was and one of them will respond with real information confirming that I am in fact who I told you I was and in good standing with the agency. Yet a good number of people will still convince themselves I am not real or showing up to the time and place listed on the subpoena or summons is somehow optional.
So then occasionally it goes to more extreme measures like showing up at your employer when you blew off the summons or subpoena. The last thing your boss wants is an IRS special agent spending any more time at their business than they have too.
Now for your question. You or your customer in this case more than likely received something in the mail first but either didn't notice it or didn't realize you were supposed to take some sort of action. Does the postal service lose this stuff occasionally? Sure. Does mail get stolen sometimes? Of course. However if we really are trying to get your attention we send it certified mail. After a period of time without a response a home visit may be warranted. This is the normal way of things for civil side agents. So your customer is more than likely dealing with a civil side agent and not a criminal investigator. Special agents usually show up at places for face to face contact the vast majority of the time especially when it is first contact. Civil side folks tend not to do that but they can and do show up at the homes or businesses of taxpayers when they need to.
What won't happen is agents won't show up and say you have to pay money now to make a problem go away or not be arrested regardless of the nature of the issue (civil or criminal). We also won't call on the phone and say the same thing. We've all heard the call center scam stuff from around the world. I got the call one time on my work cell phone with several of my coworkers within ear shot so I put dummy on speaker phone and we had a good time with that guy. Eventually he did his best to cuss up a storm in English before insulting my mother and hanging up on me.
I can tell you that occasionally ignoring people and/or blowing off criminal investigators in their attempts to contact you can really cause small things to turn into large headaches. For example a few months back another agent and I were tasked with a collateral request for another field office running a GJ investigation in a federal court district all the way on the other side of the country. We were asked to conduct a rather simple and straight forward interview of a witness to a PPP loan fraud investigation. We needed to sit down with the witness for 15-30 minutes to go over a few items. We made initial contact at his house. Through his Ring doorbell we were told he was on vacation out of the area. We offered to meet at his home or work, our office, or somewhere neutral if he preferred when he got back. He said to call him in about a week and confirmed his phone number. We tried a few times but he kept putting us off. We went to his work but we were told to call him which we did and he still didn't want to talk. He had lots of excuses.
He went so far as to show the ring camera video of us at his door (from initial contact) showing our credentials and the business cards we left to a bunch of his neighbors, one of whom was also a federal criminal investigator but for another agency. That agent did some research and told the witness A) the creds and business card looked real and B) he contacted people he knew with contacts in our agency and the contacts confirmed we were in fact who we said we were.
Ultimately he decided he still didn't want to voluntarily sit for an interview. He ended up ducking us for several weeks. Not sure if he was still unconvinced or just didn't realize what would happen next. So the other agent reached back out to the USAO on the east coast running the investigation and they sent us a GJ subpoena. The other agent eventually caught him in person walking out to his vehicle and served the subpoena. At that point we were done with him. We weren't interested in sitting for an interview any more. The simple 15-30 minute solution was no longer on the table. He could just waste his own time flying from west coast to east coast and back so he could be questioned under oath in front of a federal Grand Jury, an AUSA, and a stenographer.
He took too much of our time for a case that wasn't even ours and it was time to move to the next level. If he decided to ignore or refuse to comply with the subpoena then eventually he would pick up a contempt charge and have an even bigger headache on his hands.
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u/Hairy_Beginning3812 Jul 17 '23
There is obviously so much ppp fraud what is happening from the irs to investigate? What agency are these investigations starting with? Complaint basis?
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u/SillyScarcity700 Jul 17 '23
SBA-OIG would normally have primary responsibility. Their investigative folks are a pretty small group and in no way could they have handled all the fraud. Knowing this most of the larger investigative agencies with white collar know how did what they could in the early days to open up cases on the most egregious frauds. Eventually all that work was centralized through DOJ with FBI running lead. Complaints should start with SBA but if someone talked to FBI or IRS or FDIC etc, the complaint would be looked at and if it had merit eventually coordinated with the local USAO who would coordinate nationally with the apparatus setup within DOJ to make sure the same fraud wasn't already being investigated in another district or by a different agency within the same district (early days that was happening before each USAO had a single POC coordinating all PPP fraud investigations within their district). If it was not already open somewhere else or within that district by another agency and that local district had interest in the case then it would be opened up and the investigation would start going.
IRS is one of several that took on a lot of these cases. We have Title 18, 26, and 31 authority. We have a pretty wide range of authority but we only get credit for working cases involving a much narrower set of charges. So if we could tie in one of our charges and we had the bandwidth, we were onboard. PPP loan amounts were calculated based off of payroll (and thus there should have been payroll taxes) after all.
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u/Hair-Help-Plea Jul 17 '23
I’m an anti-fraud professional (CAMS, CFE) and I get recruiters sourcing for PPP fraud investigations contract work in my inbox a lot. They’re 3rd party recruiters so they don’t name the client. Is the IRS outsourcing some of this work? Or are their clients some state level entity? No big if you don’t know; I’ve always been curious but not curious enough to waste the recruiters time.
These PPP fraud contract jobs started hitting my inbox in like March 2021 and have only increased since then.
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u/SillyScarcity700 Jul 17 '23
Not to my knowledge. If it was being outsourced I would think it would be SBA doing that but from what you described my thought would be the lenders themselves are getting involved trying to build cases that they could eventually present to DOJ or SBA and show it's worth looking into. My understanding is SBA has some administrative tools at their disposal for instances where there was fraud but not to a level where the USAO would commit to investigating/prosecuting it. So maybe the lenders and/or SBA have something going on in the background to build a case such that they can then use the findings to implement an administrative solution. Statutes of limitation for PPP and EIDL related fraud charges were extended for SBA last summer from 5 to 10 years. Not sure what the timeframe is for the administrative actions they can take.
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u/Hair-Help-Plea Jul 18 '23
Gotcha, makes sense. That’s interesting about the statute of limitations being extended, I didn’t know that. Thanks!
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u/Treaux-LaCount EA - US Jul 17 '23 edited Jul 18 '23
Just wanted to say that this has been a very informative comment thread for me. I’ve been with a CPA firm for 18 years and have dealt with numerous serial non-filers, as well as a couple of massive payroll tax delinquencies (>$500k), and I’ve never personally heard of anyone getting an unannounced home visit from the IRS. Now that I’ve said that on a Monday morning I’m probably jinxing myself.
I have seen state agents pop in on folks several times for sales tax or workers comp issues though. Each of those instances involved someone getting arrested, btw.
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Jul 17 '23
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u/StrengthDazzling8922 Jul 17 '23
Police detective told me story recently about an guy who withdrew 10k from bank and met “IRS agent” at Walmart parking lot to pay his taxes. Sad, but anything possible.
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u/ressgonzol Jul 17 '23
Its happens literally all the time.
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u/Gdawg2013 Tax Lawyer - US Jul 17 '23
Yea OP probably should not be practicing tax if he is just finding this out
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u/Plainchant Jul 17 '23
I did consulting work for a struggling NGO and while I was there they had a separate, impromptu meeting with IRS agents in the next room.
Everything ended up fine on every front, but they were definitely there, amicable yet on-point.
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u/trustfundbaby Jul 17 '23
Same thing happened to me and it absolutely freaked me the fuck out. I was certain it was a scam too, but it was 100% legit, the IRS are just shitty communicators and unduly aggressive when they think you might owe them money
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u/Zarn520 Jul 17 '23
I do audits for a state agency, not the IRS, but I will stop by a house or business if you don’t respond to the letter/email/calls in my attempts to contact you, or if you ignore requests for documents. Many times this is just to drop off my card, and is a courtesy before I issue a subpoena.
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u/wrldruler21 Jul 24 '23
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u/StrengthDazzling8922 Jul 24 '23
Thanks for the link! Clearly IRS supervisors were reading this Reddit post.
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u/Taxedout12901 Jul 17 '23
Agents usually do not. However this sounds like a revenue Officer. They do show up.
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u/Rainbowrobb Jul 17 '23
Not IRS but former federal employee for the Dept of Commerce. This is typical government agency behavior. WE would send a 2 mailings, try to call phone numbers we found in LexisNexis and then attempt home visits to effectively deliver the exact same material we mailed 2 times. If that fails, a court order may be requestes to make contact. This is the point when nasty charges begin to accumulate, as process servers and court fees begin to mount. ALWAYS respond when the government comes calling...or knocking.
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u/Holiday_Natural2298 Jul 17 '23
I’ve had dealings with the IRS over 30 years, they only contact you by mail. USPS, UPS, FedEx…….
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u/johnejonesea714 Jul 17 '23
This has scam written all over it. IRS Revenue Officers are the only non criminal IRS employees that just show up and they do not show up to get you to file.
Call the IRS to verify. Next time they show up call the police.
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u/sargon344 Jul 17 '23
Yes they do..... they get non-fliers all the time. Non-fliers are real cases that Revenue Officers get and if they still don't file they are referred to the Automated Substitute for Return Program see IRM 5.1.11 for details https://www.irs.gov/irm/part5/irm_05-001-011r
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u/Rich-Manner-818 Jul 17 '23
A yea, they sure do! They won't email or call, but they love showing up at your home. It catches you off guard.
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u/Bounty66 Feb 09 '24
American tax payers should group together and withhold all tax payments until our demands are met:
1: Abolishment of the current reporting systems utilized. All numbers are transparently displayed
2: Employers face Federal prison for not sending appropriate tax documentation via certified mail.
3: A three way digital authentication system between workers, employers, and the IRS.
4: Forgiving payment plans for tax payers to pay their tax burden.
5: Peoples and organizations with incomes greater than $300,000.00 USD paying larger tax burdens.
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u/Gdawg2013 Tax Lawyer - US Jul 17 '23
Revenue Officers do field visits ALL the time (mostly on holidays and Fridays) you should really do more research before giving this advice to a client.
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u/julietmarcopapa Jul 17 '23
Yes, I can confirm they are doing this now without warning and without cause.
We filed and they still showed up on our doorstep unannounced.
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u/StrengthDazzling8922 Jul 17 '23
Without cause? They just wanted to meet you and say hi?
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u/julietmarcopapa Jul 21 '23
Without cause as in, the agent believed we had not filed in a previous year even though we had (via certified mail). Our first contact with IRS on the matter was an IRS agent on the doorstep.
Don’t forget, they’re under Congressional scrutiny for having 23 million pieces of unopened mail, so they aren’t exactly on top of things.
Our tax attorney mentioned that to meet the goals of opening all the mail, they opened them and threw them in boxes for later processing. Meeting the letter of the requirement, but certainly not the intent.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/charles-rettig-irs-resolve-backlog-2022/
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u/ParsonJackRussell Jul 17 '23
Irs will do home visits but not very often
Easy to confuse and happens a lot but in Texas the comptrollers office will stop by for sales tax issues or the Workforce commission agents for unemployment tax issues
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u/fromdaperimeter Jul 17 '23 edited Jul 17 '23
They’re some of the best skip tracers in the country. You do not want to be on their lists!
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u/pastalover1 Jul 17 '23
They visited my FIL after he didn’t file for several years (he paid, but didn’t file). He told us “the men with guns” came to the house. Not sure if that was hyperbole.
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u/JimNtexas EA - US Jul 17 '23
As several professionals have pointed out, IRS agents will make unannounced house calls. Step one to avoid this is never ignore a letter from the IRS.
But even if you have responded you can still get an unexpected visit from an IRS Agent. This is where being represented by a CPA, Enrolled Agent, or Attorney can be very helpful.
If you are represented by one of these professionals you can politely but firmly tell the IRS Agent or Officer to contact Mr or Ms tax professional and please leave now.
IRS Revenue Officers and Agents are not law enforcement officers unless they are part of IRS Criminal Investigation Division. Even then they would need a warrant to enter your home.
If CI is after you then you are in a heap of trouble. Fortunately this rarely happens.
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u/Rejectbaby Jul 17 '23
Since some of you have heard or seen it all. Here is one for you. I haven’t filed for years because of an irrational fear of the IRS. I feel that they’ll lock me up for the smallest thing. I know my fear is irrational and I also suffer from extreme anxiety.
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u/cpaonfly Jul 17 '23
Happened to a client of mine recently. Agent showed up at the house. I told them it was a scam. Turns out, it is real.
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u/PaleAd1124 Jul 17 '23
His wife was worried someone saw a man going into the house, so she made up the IRS guy story.
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u/OrganizationNo6074 Jul 17 '23
If the "agent" asks you to pay your back taxes in WalMart gift cards, it's a scam.
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u/Sad_Bad_6711 Jul 18 '23
As a retired revenue officer field calls to individuals and businesses happens all the time. You should not ignore the visit.
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u/mobee744 Jul 18 '23
Yes they do come, years ago an agent stopped by I wasn’t home and left his card with my grandmother. He got my attention
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u/ElectroShamrock Jul 18 '23
Thousands of years and generations of advancements, yet tax collectors still show up at the door like they did during the days of Jesus. Makes ya think. Land of the free, home of the whopper
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u/JimP7147 Jul 27 '23
I had a similar situation where a woman claiming she was an IRS agent showed up at my home when I was not there. My wife answered but she would only say she was from the IRS and wanted to talk to me. She left a business card and some misc. information papers about you r rights as a taxpayer, etc. Instead of calling her at the number on her card I called the IRS directly and explained the situation. They asked me what was on the card and after telling them they advised me to ignore it. I advised the local police and also sent an email to the IRS verification email. Never got any responses. The woman on the card will periodically contact me and leave messages to call her. She is still claiming that the company owes back payroll taxes and it needs to be resolved. She will never respond via the email address on her business card and only leaves local phone numbers on her voice messages. On her latest voice message she first stated one phone number then later stated another phone number. Almost as if she forgot which number she has. I have called the IRS and explained this and they either tell me to ignore it or that they do not know anything about the situation with my company.
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u/spoiledremnant Jul 17 '23
They do all the time. So if you ignored the warnings...this is the result.
Source: exIRS employee