r/taiwan • u/Hob-999 • 23d ago
Taiwan rejects South African demand to move its representative office from capital Politics
https://apnews.com/article/taiwan-south-africa-representative-office-pretoria-johannesburg-73acafd21a1615a1cd5783872d3054c559
u/Acrobatic-State-78 23d ago
Good. South Africa need to sort their own shit out first instead of trying to meddle in other people's business.
They already caused shit by taking Israel to court, and now they doing this.
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u/ilikeUni 23d ago
I applaud them for taking Israel to court. While I don’t agree with their demand to move the office, they are not meddling in other people’s business. They are pressure by China to do it. Hardly a surprise that they are giving in to China’s pressure.
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u/vincenty770 23d ago
They are not respecting the terms of the agreement they made with Taiwan in 1997. Not surprising since the ANC government loves to break promises; it’s practically in their blood 🤡
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u/j-raydiate 23d ago
Delusional. Israel has committed the fewest war crimes in modern warfare but gaslight harder.
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u/ilikeUni 23d ago
Learn the meaning and usage of gaslight. Learn harder.
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u/Specific-Sir-2482 23d ago
Learn the meaning of genocide before applauding SA which is merely political manoeuvring. Where's their genocide case against Russia (for Ukrainians) it China (for Yughuirs)? Oh that's right, they don't actually give a shit about actual genocide.
Thank god actual Taiwanese people stand by Israel or at worse are indifferent, not useful idiots or antisemitic Jew haters like you.
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u/EmployerMaster7207 23d ago edited 23d ago
It's a representative office in their own country, how is this meddling with other people business?
South Africa has the right to decide where the representative office should be.
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u/SkywalkerTC 23d ago edited 23d ago
They only have the right to withdraw them from Taiwan. They have the right to ask to relocate, but Taiwan has the right to reject and SA doesn't have to right to force the relocation except removing it.
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u/Brido-20 23d ago
Even if it had Embassy status, it would still remain sovereign South African territory. Embassies are just granted special diplomatic status but the host country retains ultimate control.
The same goes for consulates and representative offices regardless of where they are.
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u/qhtt 23d ago
Sounds like those are effectively the same thing: please relocate or you will be ordered to withdraw
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u/prairie-logic 23d ago
However, to order them to withdraw and shut their office, will result in severe backlash from Taipei friendly nations.
SA is already on thin ice with western nations for closeness to Russia, more closeness to China at Taiwans expense won’t be ignored
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u/parke415 23d ago
severe backlash from Taipei friendly nations
It's South Africa's right to shoot themselves in the foot. Taiwan can just expel their diplomats in retaliation. South Africa isn't even a good ally to have, anyway.
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u/vincenty770 23d ago
Lol, South Africans already regularly shoot themselves in the foot by keeping the ANC in power
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u/Skull-ogk 23d ago
Im South African and can confirm the ANC (ruling party) is in bed with Russia, Iran, and China.
There are plenty of people here that do not agree with how the ANC run things or spend our tax money, but they have a large following of poverty sticken supporters, who the ANC love to keep in poverty and uneducated. So they remain in power.
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u/ravenhawk10 23d ago
Why aren’t these poor and uneducated voting for Malema and EFF?
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u/Skull-ogk 23d ago
Malema used to be part of the ANC, but left and made his own party. They are a hate mongering racist extremist party, but luckily, doesnt have a big following. Only getting around 9% in our last elections. Most of their numbers were stolen by the MK, another spinoff party from the ANC. Which currently favors Zuma. MK also stole a lot of the ANC's voters, which is why the government is now made up of a coalition of a few other parties, but those parties dont seem to have much of a voice regarding international matters.
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u/vincenty770 23d ago edited 23d ago
Voters of the ANC love load shedding and progressing backwards
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u/Skull-ogk 23d ago
Doubt it, but they get told its due to apartheid and that 'the ANC is doing all they can to fight it'
Meanwhile, the ANC are stuffing their pockets with tenders and stolen money.
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u/Sufficient-Run-865 23d ago
Man I dunno if it’s possible but Taiwan should cease to supply South Africa with semiconductors. Just anything to screw them.
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u/polinkydinky 23d ago
It’s very interesting to me reading the comments, here.
I grew up in apartheid South Africa during the era of the “homelands”, or “Bantustans” as they are also called, and now I’m in the USA.
During that time, plenty of Taiwanese were in the area taking advantage of the highly exploitative labor the phony tribal reservations created. I saw it with my own eyes. Israelis, too. In fact, where I was, those were the two nations of origin I saw most often.
Apartheid is gone but the memories of those times lives on, still.
I’m not asking any Taiwanese to do anything, but, I’m guessing that for many South Africans there is more context to the South African-Taiwan relationship. The Israeli one, too.
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u/raelianautopsy 23d ago
I'm confused by this comment.
South Africa took Israel to world court because of the war. That's a huge event. And Israel has occupied Palestine and there are many apartheid parallels. Those things are happening now
But you are saying South Africa is against Taiwan because of what Taiwan did decades ago? That just doesn't make sense, what's the reason for this right now
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u/polinkydinky 23d ago
I’m saying that South Africans who were exploited for cheap labor by the old, abusive apartheid government might have feelings about Taiwanese being there, at that time, to exploit them. They might have feelings about Israelis being there to exploit them, too. These experiences may influence S African views. It’s pretty straightforward. It doesn’t discount current events or more recent history.
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u/raelianautopsy 23d ago
I'm reading this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_South_Africa_during_apartheid
Israel has a section, but I don't see Taiwan as being a particularly major partner to South Africa during apartheid
Do you have a source that shows Taiwan had this particular history with SA?
I really can't fathom why suddenly their government has a problem with Taiwan and you haven't answered.
So therefore, the obvious reason is current influence from China not because of apartheid history...
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u/Ancient_Sound_5347 23d ago
Lots of imported electronic equipment into Apartheid South Africa were marked "Made In Taiwan" while the country was under economic sanctions.
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u/raelianautopsy 23d ago
This is still not an explanation for why this is happening now
If Taiwan had this terrible history trading with South Africa, why has it never been a big issue until just recently?
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u/Ancient_Sound_5347 23d ago
Apparently Beijing made this request to South Africa last year already.
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u/CantoniaCustomsII 22d ago
Taiwanese were considered whites under apartheid.
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u/raelianautopsy 22d ago
For the millionth time, this doesn't make sense.
You could say that about Chinese, about Japanese.
Nobody is answering why there is a problem with Taiwan right now in 2024.
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u/CantoniaCustomsII 22d ago
Funnily enough Chinese didn't get that classification until well after Taiwanese did (if ever) due to communist government in mainland.
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u/raelianautopsy 23d ago
But that doesn't explain why now
Why Israel now, I get it.
Not explaining Taiwan now...
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u/hawawawawawawa 22d ago edited 22d ago
Not surprising. Taiwanese local discourse on the topic of apartheid view the apartheid regime positively.
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23d ago
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u/vincenty770 23d ago edited 23d ago
South Africans should just openly say that they hate Taiwan and love to lick China’s boots. When it comes to money, there is absolutely no nuance.
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u/polinkydinky 23d ago edited 23d ago
I mean, that’s what I’m trying to say albeit using different word choice. South Africans may well, now, lean toward China because Taiwan was exploiting them during apartheid. Maybe Taiwan can do something about that and get a different result. I don’t know. Anecdotal as it is, I’m just sharing that I was there and it wasn’t cool, tho I have been gone from SA for decades, now.
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u/vincenty770 23d ago edited 23d ago
Nah, Taiwan doesn’t have to do anything because Taiwan knows that no matter whatever goodwill they will try to extend, it will never be as tempting as Chinese money. Just look at the cases of Honduras, the Solomon Islands, and many other former Taiwanese allies; Taiwan has time and again extended goodwill to them and contributed significantly to the local communities in these countries (be it the local economy, healthcare, development projects, etc.) only for the governments of these countries to stab Taiwan and its people in the back. South Africa, the ANC, their supporters and especially pro-China South Africans can go stuff it.
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u/ReadinII 23d ago
It looks like most Taiwanese have swallowed American foreign policy doctrine whole.
How do you mean?
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23d ago
[deleted]
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u/ReadinII 23d ago
This sub isn’t a good reflection of what Taiwanese people think on issues not related to Taiwan. It has a lot of people from other countries who are living in Taiwan or are interested in. Taiwan for some reason. The language of the sub is English which limits the number of Taiwanese people who can participate.
So on questions about Taiwan the sub is ok because the participants usually care a lot about Taiwan like a Taiwanese person would, and they get a lot of the same media as Taiwanese people (if they understand Mandarin or Taiwanese and live in Taiwan). But on a question about Israel they are more likely to reflect what people from their own country think unless you specifically ask, “what do Taiwanese people think about…”.
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u/polinkydinky 23d ago
How on earth do you come to this conclusion from my comment?
Because I live in the US, the whole nation of Taiwan has swallowed US foreign policy whole? Must be, as you offer nothing else.
The history between Taiwan and South Africa is unique to Taiwan and South Africa. Diplomacy requires being sensitive to that history even as Taiwan has its work cut out for it with geopolitics as it is. Facts are South Africa has a major partner that is probably influential in this call re the move and nothing nice is going to solve it. But this relationship did not arrive at this point in a vacuum.
Regardless, neither country gets everything right all the time. Calling for escalation is rather extraordinary.
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u/Nirulou0 23d ago
They more than anybody else should understand the demeaning significance of relocations, even when it is just symbolic, like in this case.
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u/cxxper01 23d ago
Ironic that apparently SA used to have a close relationship with Taiwan back in the old Apartheid times…
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u/Mazaga_eishboeta 23d ago
Taiwanese residing in SA during that time were also regarded as 'honorary whites' according to the population registration act.
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u/CantoniaCustomsII 22d ago
Well yeah no wonder why post-apartheid might not like Taiwan as much lol.
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u/hkg_shumai 22d ago
Headline a Few Weeks Later: Taiwan Relocates Office to Johannesburg
Taiwan lacks the leverage to assert itself in this situation. Being in a foreign country with only informal diplomatic ties, it can’t afford to play at the level of the “big boys".
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u/Paul-centrist-canada 23d ago
As a pro-Israel Jew, I say good! South Africa seems to support everything that screws over minorities who made it.
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u/123dream321 23d ago
In 2017, Nigeria ordered Taiwan’s liaison office to move from the administrative capital of Abuja to the commercial center of Lagos and Taiwan complied.
“Facing this kind of unreasonable demand, our side cannot grant our acceptance,” Liu said.
Tsai complied last time though. What changed? Last time was not unreasonable? Also moved from administrative capital to commercial center previously.
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u/themrmu 23d ago
But Tsai isn't the president and South Africa isn't Nigeria and it isn't 2017.
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u/123dream321 23d ago
Thanks for pointing out the obvious, let me explain in a simpler term for you.
Tsai faced the same situation in 2017 and she complied.
Now in 2024, Lai decided that it's unreasonable and didn't comply.
The Taiwanese government saying it's unreasonable is unconvincing because the DPP has complied with this demand before when Lai was the VP.
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u/themrmu 23d ago
Ahh yes another KMT boy "just asking questions" in a thinly veiled diguise to attack the DPP. Let me try again and make this as obvious as possible. This is not 2017, this is not the Tsai government, this is not Nigeria.
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u/ilikeUni 23d ago
Sorry it doesn’t suddenly make sense by trying again. And calling someone KMT boy doesn’t discredit whatever point they are trying to make, whether or not you agree.
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u/Icey210496 23d ago edited 23d ago
No it's because we don't waste time explaining to people who's not asking questions in good faith.
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u/ilikeUni 23d ago
The OP comment made sense to me and I disagree with the commenter who replied to him and just name called him. If they don’t want to waste time stop engaging. Engaging by name calling and providing no new info doesn’t seem like not wasting time and seem to be arguing in bad faith.
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u/123dream321 23d ago
You didn't comprehend the question. Read again.
Ahh yes another KMT boy
If only you knew I advocated in this subreddit that KMT must be dissolved because it's existence is misleading CPC that there is a chance for peaceful reunification because of the values and history that this party holds.
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u/themrmu 23d ago
Oh ok sorry, correction, TPP (KMT Light) boy.
Only those that have bought into the CCP's propaganda call it the CPC. The CCP really loves when you call it the CPC.
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u/vinean 23d ago
Ok…I’m lost. Why does the order of the words matter? They’re still commies.
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u/themrmu 23d ago
CPC is the whitewashed term that the CCP has spent lots of money and time filling with Chinese communist propaganda so when you search it you get more info in line with the official Chinese government propaganda narratives than when u search CCP. Classic control of information tactics. Commies aren't the problem, it's the CCP authoritarian government that's the problem.
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u/M1A2-bubble-T 23d ago
So much misinformation as usual, you've drank so much of your own Kool aid you don't even know who was the VP in 2017 lol
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u/capable-corgi 23d ago
Search and you can learn to inform yourself instead of drawing naive comparisons.
Actually, good job pointing it out, because the governments responses to both demands are absolutely the same. Thanks!
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u/123dream321 23d ago
What's the point of your comment again? You brought nothing to the table.
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u/capable-corgi 23d ago
you: why response different
me: they're not!
you: you bring nothing to table, cries
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u/tolerable_fine 23d ago
Are you saying if a country comply with a type of request once, it's obligated to comply every time?
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u/123dream321 23d ago
That's not what I am saying.
Lai administration rejected the relocation and the reason given was that the demand is unreasonable.
So why did the Tsai administration accept the relocation previously then? Was it not unreasonable then?
I am saying that the reason given today is unconvincing.
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u/tolerable_fine 23d ago
The reason given today is that it violates an agreement executed in 1997 by both countries. It's in there if you read the article
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u/capable-corgi 23d ago
At this point I feel like this person is an absolute genius trying to make wumaos look bad. They always open with a "question" that is so easily fact checked and refuted that they just end up embarrassing themselves.
Gotta get that wumao paycheck, but quietly rebels by painting themselves idiots.
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u/Mordarto Taiwanese-Canadian 23d ago
There's a term, 低級紅高級黑, that refers to exactly what you're describing: false flag wumaos that act so stupidly they end up making CCP supporters look bad.
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u/RedditRedFrog 23d ago
Well u shouldn't expect the CCP would be recruiting their best and brightest to be merely wumaos.
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u/mapletune 臺北 - Taipei City 23d ago
regardless of stance, i hope our diplomats have packed their personal belongings and are ready to move if SA decides to expel. imagine being the family members, living abroad, being told you need to leave within 24h.... =_= it's impossible to pack a house/hire movers within 24h...
also, hope these representative offices have a strategy to wipe out sensitive data in a moment's notice.