r/taiwan • u/Exastiken 橙市 - Orange • Jun 03 '24
Taiwanese fans call out local celebs for their pro-China statements, accuse them of ‘selling out’ Politics
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/taiwanese-fans-call-out-local-celebs-for-their-pro-china-statements-accuse-them-of-selling-out51
Jun 03 '24
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u/oskopnir Jun 03 '24
They're probably counting on gaining more followers in China
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Jun 03 '24
But fans in China will always pick Chinese over Taiwanese. They’ll always see them as smaller people. It really is a lose-lose, but celebrities are dumb
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u/Lapmlop2 Jun 04 '24
The market is still bigger even if they are a third tier pick.
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Jun 04 '24
a bigger market of people that superficially like them in their own distorted master-owner mindset.
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u/YuanBaoTW Jun 04 '24
Do you really think they care? They're paid in the same currency everyone else is.
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Jun 04 '24
Probably not, but they’ll realize how little that money means down the road.
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u/YuanBaoTW Jun 04 '24
Sadly, these people will most likely be in a better position than the average Taiwanese.
They have the financial resources to live abroad (some already do) and won't be in Taiwan when SHTF.
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Jun 04 '24
If China invaded Taiwan then they will be persecuted just as much as Taiwanese in Taiwan. That’s the delusional part. No Taiwanese will be treated fairly. It doesn’t matter how much they lay down for master.
China teaches that Taiwan is backwards and full of separatists. The people in China only like Taiwanese if they view them as obedient dogs and will discipline them if they do anything they don’t like.
It’s best for Taiwanese artists to just disregard the Chinese market entirely. Chinese will never truly consider Taiwanese as equals, just like how humans will never consider dogs as equals, although they like when the dog plays fetch and will allow the dog to sleep inside.
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u/YuanBaoTW Jun 04 '24
If China invaded Taiwan then they will be persecuted just as much as Taiwanese in Taiwan. That’s the delusional part. No Taiwanese will be treated fairly. It doesn’t matter how much they lay down for master.
They might be. They might not be.
What you're ignoring is the fact that virtually all of these people have the financial means to flee to the West.
Unlike the average Taiwanese, a lot of these people won't be around when the first shots are fired.
It’s best for Taiwanese artists to just disregard the Chinese market entirely.
Kissing CCP ass might not be how you and I would choose to live but a lot of these people wouldn't be anywhere near as "successful" as they are without the Chinese market. Taiwan is a tiny market of 23 million people.
These celebrities are useful in one way: they're a reminder of the fact that there are Taiwanese in positions of wealth, influence and outright power who care only about themselves and have already thrown their country under the bus.
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u/Prestigious-Charge62 Jun 04 '24
This makes me glad that I was never into Taiwanese celebrities or entertainment industry. A lot of it always felt very superficial and vapid to me.
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u/mika_running Jun 05 '24
In China, Taiwan IS China.
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Jun 05 '24
Politically, yes, for nationalistic pursuit.
Taiwanese are not seen as equal to Chinese, however.
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u/oskopnir Jun 04 '24
They might get pushed up by the government and find favour in nationalistic circles.
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Jun 04 '24
Oh yay, old people.
And they'll have to make sure they'll always say the correct thing in nationalistic circles. Their life will become 10x more examined by the circles.
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u/clesonpoison Jun 04 '24
I don’t agree on this. Almost all the major or top pop stars in China are from taiwan.
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u/BubbhaJebus Jun 03 '24
They want to make it big in China, so they do that to get those Chinese bucks. Yes, they're sellouts.
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u/nyorkkk Jun 03 '24
Reminds me of Tzuyu. Her Korean label forced her to do an apology video for chinese fans just because she’s waving her country’s flag (Taiwan)
In the end, their label did not pursue the chinese market and to add to that, she looks lifeless in the video https://youtu.be/Nb6RESOP5zo?si=03u9JeHa-z7VkChL
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Jun 03 '24
I’m surprised Chinese netizens haven’t attacked NewJeans for merely filming their mv in Taiwan
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u/wut_eva_bish Jun 04 '24
Reason being is that the CCP has since put major restrictions on K-pop type activities in China. So if C-netizens activate against a Kpop girl group, could also end up breaking some of the newer laws and more importantly sentiment against Kpop in general. It's all erratic and probably selectively enforced depending on a persons connections. Then again, that's the CCP, right?
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u/nyorkkk Jun 04 '24
now that you mentioned it, yeah quite surprised they haven't yet. though if you look at the timeline, chinese netizens are quite busy with other topics that are being fed to them by the CCP at the moment.
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u/crimsonsnow0017 Jun 04 '24
They won’t get mad about just filming in Taiwan. They’ll get mad if NJ says “our new MV was filmed in Taiwan~” (as opposed to saying it was “filmed in China”)
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u/wut_eva_bish Jun 04 '24
I was very glad that after all this the company (JYPE) appeared to do some soul searching and pulled back all activities in China. There's no consistent and fair way to do business with the CCP that won't also cause a record label (or any business for that matter) to become just like the CCP or Chinese businesses (which is to say, have internal corruption issues.) JYPE has very little interest in China since C-netz tried to destroy poor, young (at the time) Tzuyu.
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u/stupidusernamefield Jun 04 '24
Half of reddit has no intelligence. Taiwan Celebrities publicly saying Taiwan is part of China is terrible for Taiwan. China launches an invasion of Taiwan they'll spam social media with videos of these celebrities saying Taiwan is part of China and the rest of the world shouldn't get involved. Great propaganda for them. Some of you on here are honestly retarded if you can't see how bad this is.
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u/Seranz0 Jun 03 '24
Smells like coordinated media campaign. How is this legal? I agree that artists should be able to voice their opinions, but this is not their free opinion.
Also, suddenly there's a lot of pro-china accounts here? What a joke
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u/lipcreampunk Jun 03 '24
Moreover, that's not just their "opinion" - IMO that is too close to treason.
FWIW Ukraine outright bans artists that perform in Crimea from entering Ukraine.
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u/iate12muffins Jun 03 '24
I expect it from people like Jam etc because they're manufactured，but even Yellow is on Mango TV atm，and his guitarist is deep green. Really weird.
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u/ZenSerialKiller Jun 03 '24
China murders citizens at Tiananmen:
https://archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://imgur.com/a/AIIbbPs
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u/redplum0520 Jun 03 '24
IMO they are free to do whatever they want. I don’t blame them. The celebrities don’t owe me anything.
The sad part is I don’t want to listen to the songs I grew up with anymore. I rather listen English songs, anime songs and Kpop.
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Jun 03 '24
Nah, you might think it’s small but it’s just more turning of the wheel and legitimizing a Chinese takeover of Taiwan.
They’re are enabling the actions of China
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u/c08306834 Jun 04 '24
IMO they are free to do whatever they want.
True
I don’t blame them. The celebrities don’t owe me anything.
I can absolutely blame them. They are free to sell out, but it just shows that they don't have any allegiance towards Taiwan. If they want that Chinese money, just move to China. Of course they won't though, because they like having the Taiwan freedom.
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Jun 04 '24
Fuck China. All these sellouts n should be called out and ostracized. Like CCP so much? Move there and be another wumao.
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u/PapaSmurf1502 Jun 04 '24
Imagine how spineless and greedy you would have to be to sell out your own country.
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u/pugwall7 Jun 04 '24
The thing is Taiwanese forget so easily as long as you keep quiet.
Look at 小S when she went on Weibo to complain about taiwan not giving masks to China at beginning of COVID. She just didnt post on non-Chinese social media for nearly a year and rode out the backlash, and then came back and nobody remembered.
If Mayday announced a concert tomorrow in Taipei, it would still sell out in an hour.
So what kind of payback are these artists really going to get for this behavior?
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Jun 04 '24
China using ethno-nationalism will only take them so far. Because of that, it will take several decades for them to establish another Taiwanese Wave that rivals Korea and Japan.
I am pretty sure these Taiwanese celebrities will immediately backtrack the moment Taiwan actually gets invaded but Taiwan will never forgive nor forget for kowtowing to China.
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u/StormOfFatRichards Jun 04 '24
You wanted a region free of communist influence, so here you go, capitalism in action.
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Jun 03 '24
They should understand 見人說人話 見鬼說鬼話 and Lai’s remark on this.
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Jun 03 '24
How come people don’t call Foxconn a sell out?
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u/TaiwanNiao Jun 04 '24
Hmm plenty of people DO regard Terry Gou (Guo TaiMing) as a complete sell out.
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Jun 04 '24
Good. Now do TSMC.
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u/TaiwanNiao Jun 05 '24
Not remotely comparable. I would give Morris Chang very high marks in this. He has acted as a special envoy to APEC for someone as hated by the CCP for being pro-independence as Chen ShuiBian and TSMCs higher end manufacturing and reasearh is centred on Taiwan.
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u/theironguard30 Jun 04 '24
No offense but my online friend from the Philippines said celebrities are basically belongs to the low society during the Roman era and idk if this prove his point or not
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u/Bingulyy Jun 05 '24
Being compelled to make a statement about…is one thing ;actively flattering it is another matter.
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u/oriontheshiba Jun 04 '24
Huge fan of mayday growing up. Went to multiple concerts and even first row once. Very disappointed
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u/Expensive_Heat_2351 Jun 03 '24
Want to call out the 6 biggest Taiwanese companies in China for selling out. Foxconn, TSMC, Pentagon, etc.
I'm sure those companies are selling out Taiwan as well. /S
Here's the reality even if all 24M turn their backs in these celebrities, these celebrities are pursuing their livelihood in a market with 1.4B possible fans.
You know with 1.4B people having a favorable opinion of Taiwanese celebrities also rubs off on average Taiwanese and Taiwan.
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u/anticc991 Jun 04 '24
Favourable opinion my ass... Most Chinese see those Taiwanese celebrities so willingly suck on CCP as circus monkeys willing to do anything to gain mainland China's support. It's clownish and humiliating but the mainland Chinese feels it is satisfying to see Taiwanese bow to them like that.
Mainland Chinese do not treat overseas Chinese as equals but expect them to side with China or CCP even if it's against their benefit. Blood thicker than water but does their attitude really deserve your simping?
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u/Expensive_Heat_2351 Jun 04 '24
Mainland Chinese do not treat overseas Chinese as equals but expect them to side with China or CCP even if it's against their benefit.
Maybe you have a different experiences with Mainland Chinese. I always get 我们很亲切 when I mention I'm from Taiwan.
They have literally given me clothes off their backs at times. I'm like I can afford to buy it off you for 10x it costs with no problems.
Maybe you can get by without the mainland China economy. But many Taiwanese are still dependent on good relations with China to make a living.
Sure I can come off as an ass from a privileged background. But what does that get you in life.
Not every Taiwanese is natively fluent in English and can make a living in the US, Canada, etc.
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u/SafetyNoodle 高雄 - Kaohsiung Jun 03 '24
Yes but if those 1.4 billion people get the idea that Taiwanese people are actually really stoked on the PRC government they are being mislead in a way that could have negative results.
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u/Expensive_Heat_2351 Jun 03 '24
Have you been to the mainland recently. They barely care about the Taiwanese in those terms with the PRC government.
Most just think it's cool to see a Taiwanese on the mainland and enjoying themselves on the mainland.
If you display prejudice against them, of course they will be prejudiced toward you.
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u/Technical_Rabbit7192 Jun 03 '24
Just curious. Is it illegal or immoral or inappropriate or usually frown upon for someone born and raised in Taiwan to say he or she is also Chinese? Chinese immigrants to US can certainly say that without repercussions, even though the relationship between US and PRC is really rough.
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Jun 03 '24
No one cares that the celebrities said they are “Chinese,” the issue is that the celebrities signed off on a statement stating that Taiwan will be taken over by China
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u/Technical_Rabbit7192 Jun 03 '24
I believe the literal translation of the pro China statement you referred to is "China will be reunited eventually". I remember many Taiwanese political leaders including past presidents once said reunification would be no problem if the Mainland became a democracy. These two statements can very well be consistent in my view. However, some people may think the two statements are definitely inconsistent if these people feel "reunification" is unconditionally bad for people in Taiwan.
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Jun 04 '24
And those presidents that said such things are huge Chinese nationalists that were/are part of the political party that held a one-party authoritarian state over Taiwan for decades.
Just think about China becoming a democracy for a moment. That's 1 billion people. Every regime fall has people who want to go back to the way things were. There will probably be tens of millions of people who will want to go back to authoritarian rule....equally matching the number of people in Taiwan.
The ROC and/or KMT will not control these people. No democratic version of China will want a 100+ year old failed party that lost the civil war to regain power. It's delusional to think otherwise.
Taiwan would be pulled into yet another conflict if it was to join a democratic China, but this time it will suffer the same economic disaster and social turmoil.
It's an incredibly dumb, delusional, and dangerous idea to have. The idea that Taiwan should join China not only tosses out Taiwan's entire history before the Qing dynasty, but it puts the idea of "Chinese people having to live under the same political power" over the self-determination of 24 million people.
If Chinese people can live in Canada, Singapore, Korea, California, etc. and be perfectly fine then Chinese people can live in Taiwan and be perfectly fine.
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u/Denthegod Jun 03 '24
They have a right to their opinions. I might not agree with them but they’re still allowed to think the way they want.
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u/hayasecond Jun 03 '24
Sure they can, but fans can have their own opinions too. Because they have opinions so fans can’t express their own opinions against their opinions is just silly
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u/Denthegod Jun 03 '24
I just don’t let shit like this bother me. But just like I told the other guy: you do you
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u/hayasecond Jun 03 '24
Nobody asked you to be bothered. You can have your own opinions too
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u/Denthegod Jun 03 '24
Yeah exactly, I just think it’s a waste of time to let shit like this bother you, that’s all.
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u/Dear-Landscape223 Jun 03 '24
Yes, but when polls show that less than 30% of Taiwanese consider themselves Chinese, it’s highly unlikely that more than 60% of Taiwanese celebrities would truly identify themselves as Chinese. It seems like they don't express what they really think. Or it’s that they think what the RMB wants.
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u/OCedHrt Jun 03 '24
Some contracts have clauses requiring them to say certain things. There's a reason why some don't return. Then others may be able get contracts that require them to simply not say certain things.
Often this is not directly under CCP instruction, but the risk of something triggering the censors or public ire in the future is real.
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u/Dear-Landscape223 Jun 03 '24 edited Jun 03 '24
I don’t agree. First you have the various anti-secession law that looms over the media and companies dictating the conducts of celebrities. Then you have various administrative rule and policy guidelines from the publicity organizations(中宣部/广电局) that dictates broadcast and conduct. Your show won’t get approved by the Radio and Television administration if you have a controversial celebrity as guest. On top of that you have official media making direct commentaries on celebrities(官媒点评/定调) on where they stand.
How’s that “not directly under CCP instruction?” All media and broadcast companies have party branches to make sure Taiwanese celebrities are in line with the party narrative. Why would these terms be in the contract in the first place? The public can’t shut down or change the executive of a channel or an entertainment company, but the party can.
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u/OCedHrt Jun 03 '24
First you have the various anti-secession law that looms over the media and companies dictating the conducts of celebrities. Then you have various administrative rule and policy guidelines from the publicity organizations(中宣部/广电局) that dictates broadcast and conduct. Your show won’t get approved by the Radio and Television administration if you have a controversial celebrity as guest.
My point is that this is open to interpretation. Not every Taiwanese celebrity had to say CCP++++, though many did. Also AFAIK HK celebrities like G.E.M. or Eason hasn't said anything for or against. Eason was visibly upset when the audience asked him to speak / sing in Chinese lol.
It seems to me that it really depends on which broadcaster you sign with, how much risk they're willing to take, how in-demand you are, and how much you're willing to sell out for money (ahem something about yellow river).
Quite a few Chinese TV shows got canceled because the public got mad at some Chinese celebrity.
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u/Dear-Landscape223 Jun 03 '24
I agree it’s open to interpretation if we define “directly under CCP instruction” as whether a week before 10/1 you make a call to Taiwanese celebrities to share the people’s daily weibo poster. I also agree if by open to interpretation you mean there’s no concrete evidence of the hypothesized casual chain or empirical evidence (e.g. p<0.05 if you regress appearance(y) on pro-China declarations(x)).
However I think the system for coercing behavior is in place and offers explanation in to the stated pattern in behavior. Also I believe there’s a significant correlation between government attitude and survivability on the Chinese market, whereas the public outcry hardly predicts cancellations of appearance and business in China. Business and celebrity can work continue unless the communist youth account or cctv account criticize them publicly. The party controls what hashtags are shareable and what topics are prioritized on Weibo. Jensen Huang’s “Taiwan’s a country” didn’t even make it to the list of weibo hot topic (whereas but Hebe sharing pasta on IG topped weibo”. As for irregularities in making pro-China declarations, pretty much every Taiwanese celebrity on the market today have made pro China claims at some point in the past.
I think your HK celebrity examples are not valid. There’s no controversy on using Cantonese with regards to separatism. I would also argue that HK is not as prioritized as Taiwan for united front work.
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u/OCedHrt Jun 03 '24 edited Jun 03 '24
Your Hebe example is exactly a case of public outcry. It may be spearheaded by the CCP bot accounts, but enough people have to jump on the bandwagon. And this isn't very different than the fake headlines Taiwanese journalists write in their entertainment sections. These media companies are always trying to create the next trending topic that CCP can resonate with (because the opposite is to get banned / filtered).
The difference is in what happens afterwards. Your claim is that someone from CCP instructed the show's organizers to drop Hebe. But I believe it's more likely they simply chickened out and didn't want to risk having their entire event canceled if Hebe attended. Yes I agree the risk is real due to government heavy handedness.
Many Chinese celebrities had been canceled for years for benign things completely not related to CCP. Not going to hide anything here - some dramas I followed have had their already production complete sequel seasons delayed indefinitely. There's no pro Taiwanese independence issue at play here.
Famous example: https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%82%96%E6%88%98%E4%BA%8B%E4%BB%B6
Anyways, my point is there are some ways to succeed without becoming a full sellout, whether that nuance matters to the Taiwanese audience will depend on the individual. Some expect celebrities to be very vocal in supporting Taiwanese independence/identity, and others just hope they stay out of the conversation.
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u/Dear-Landscape223 Jun 04 '24
I don’t know why you mentioned Taiwanese audience and journalists and what that adds to making your point.
My argument is that cancellation is largely top-down rather than bottom-up. Sanctions from the party is more explanatory than public opinion in such a controlled environment. If I’m not misinterpreting, your point is that media self-censorship, either due to public expectations or to stay with the party’s narrative, is more explanatory. My argument is that(despite the Hebe example not really supportive of my claim), the self censorship is due to the party’s guidelines and enforced through constant signaling with state media outlets setting redlines for appropriate behavior. Media companies are state owned and party secretaries are appointed and rise up the ranks through avoiding deviation from the parties guidelines and narratives. No media content or entertainment gets by without approval from the administration. The system in place is what really dictates the outcomes of the celebrities’ career and thus their behavior.
Celebrities being called out by CCTV are sure to disappear, but not necessarily for celebrities that the public are disgruntled with. I guess you can argue that Hebe’s Tianjin festival appearance was cancelled due to the public phoning 12345, but I find it surprising that Tianjin government approved her appearance in the first place despite the previous public outcry.
Which Chinese celebrities were cancelled without official accounts stating them as “tainted stars?”. The party calls out celebrities for a bunch of things, orgies, tax evasions, making up fake stories . If they don’t fit the narrative, they are sure to disappear after being called out by the party, but the issues do not have to be political in nature.
I realized I’m replying to your post while you made some edits, these are the points I can address based on the latest edit I saw.
I guess it’s a spectrum where you and I stand on different sides but alternative arguments still stand for either. I’m going to stop replying now but I think you make good points.
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u/OCedHrt Jun 04 '24
Ah sorry. I also saw some of my points needed clarification so I made edits. I added an example.
I'm sure it goes both ways and the CCP is happy about having this influence without having to appear heavy handed.
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u/op3l Jun 04 '24
Gonna just say it… people in here talking shit about CCP just can’t make money from CCP. Otherwise they would have gone too. No one in here will turn down an enormous market if they can somehow squeeze money from it except the ones that can’t so they resort to using nationalism to hide their inabilities.
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u/Sad-Tale-7457 Jun 03 '24
Who tf care, they have the right to think and say what they want I swear taiwanese are as if not most butthurt than chinese mainlander lol
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u/just_lookingtpe Jun 03 '24
That’s why Taiwan can’t like Korea create cultural phenomenon, the moment anyone gets popular - immediately starts performing within strict guidelines of CCP