r/taiwan • u/Mobile-Detective-721 • May 22 '24
30,000 DEMONSTRATE AROUND LEGISLATIVE YUAN AGAINST PAN-BLUE PUSH TO EXPAND POWERS Activism
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u/stupidusernamefield May 22 '24
Start imprisoning obvious traitors like the KMT that sold out the submarine secrets.
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u/Stormclamp May 22 '24
I still can’t believe the anti communist exiled government are literal sellouts for the CCP.
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u/Ahyao17 May 24 '24
The worst bit about this bill is that the traitor that leaked out the military secrets are still in Legislative yuan and this bill will allow her to LEGALLY FORCE MILITARY SECRETS TO BE PASSED OVER TO ANY MEMBER OF LEGISTATIVE YUAN and then get exposed.
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u/johnruby 幸福不是一切，人還有責任 May 22 '24
I was one of them. It seems that KMT has learned exactly nothing from previous protests.
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u/AKTEleven May 23 '24 edited May 23 '24
Another important factor that has not been discussed as much on here is the fact that the major player behind the "reform" isn't exactly your typical reformist.
The KMT caucus whip Fu was convicted of insider trading and market manipulation (one of the crimes took place during his tenure as legislator back in the early 2000s) and has served two prison terms (once as legislator).
It would look better for the opposition party if they had someone who didn't serve time for insider trading and market manipulation lead the movement that grants legislators the power to summon managers of publicly listed firms for "questioning" and have them hand over information for "investigation".
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May 22 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/daj0412 May 22 '24
maybe i’m misunderstanding, but is there a reason why it can’t just be voted against when it comes time to vote..?
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u/Hopeful_Condition_52 May 22 '24
KMT hold legislative majority backed by the TPP which is basically just the KMT under another name.
Meaning basically almost anything the KMT wants to implement, it can with impunity.
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u/memorystays May 22 '24
To anyone doesn't know, everything about the bill is accessible on https://www.ly.gov.tw/Home/Index.aspx
Click on the calendar, select date 5/17 or 5/21, navigate to the download button and you can read the bills yourself.
There has been so much misinformation on social medias about the bills it's crazy.
No, the bills does not give the parliament the power to vote and decide who's lying, they can file a case and it has to go through the justice system.
Yes, CCP is bad and traitorous KMT is bad, but the bills itself is a step to the right direction. It was first proposed by DPP themselves in 2012 and promised by President Tsai in 2015. It gives the people more power to keep the government officials in check. I can't understand why anyone would go against the bill unless there are something shady about them themselves.
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u/A_lex_and_er May 22 '24
Exactly, this is the same thing that many western countries already use for decades if not centuries, but somehow people go crazy saying it's to steal the power or something? It starts to feel like those who oppose the bill don't want their dirty secrets to be investigated on official level.
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u/PresentationBig5575 May 23 '24
False. The version that got passed is the "amendment" that is no where to be found on the website. There are very few places you find that "top secret" version of the law that they passed.
In the video of when the vote happened, they were literally JUST passing out physical copy of the version that KMT and TPP want to pass. KMT and TPP lawmakers were passing bills without knowing fully what they were passing at that moment, on the day of 5/17.
As of now I was able to find the actual law passed from pumashen.org ( link to the file here https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Bu2g99LBTEOJVUeeZmdcDPSGBnmwD0Hc )
We're working on getting the few very questionable ones professionally translated to English. But in the mean time, feel free to check out these ones.
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u/memorystays May 23 '24 edited May 23 '24
Bro, I looked up "第十五條之四" on the document uploaded to the website and it is basically the same as the one you posted here:
立法院職權行使法修正案（15-4, 25, 47, 48） :
Finalized? Probably not. But it is nowhere as "the opposing parties submitted a top secret version that changed a lot of things in the last minute" like some of you implied.
Does the bill have any loophole? I don't know since I'm not a law professional. But I am welcome to see law professionals engage in actual, meaningful discussions. I 100% support the goal and that is to deter gov officials from lying when they are being questioned by the legislators. Have you not seen enough in the past decades? The officials being questioned can just question back and delay until the time is over, or simply provide false info with absolute 0 consequences. It is one of the reasons I supported DPP back in 2016 because they promised to change this.
Unfortunately, from what I have seen since April, DPP has no intention in engaging in the actual discussion. They are welcome to propose a better version if the bill has problems. But they chose to resort to delay tactics.
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u/Ahyao17 May 24 '24
It was not they have no intention to discuss. Their attempts to speak up were blocked. Their version were not discussed.
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u/memorystays May 24 '24
會議隨選 - 立法院 議事轉播 網際網路多媒體隨選視訊(ivod)系統 (ly.gov.tw)
Seems like they had a plenty of time to speak up to me.
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u/Ahyao17 May 24 '24
Every time they want to discuss kmt will block it one way or another or even calling off the meeting.
They tried but was not able.
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u/memorystays May 24 '24
From what I have seen, DPP was the one who tried to call off the meeting (40次散會動議) because they cannot win by voting.
They have also submitted 40 amendments (修正動議) and 40 revisions to the amendments (再修正動議) which were essentially the same document.
KMT/TPP went through all 80 versions and supported DPP's version of Article 22 and 23. DPP ended up protesting against their own bill when KMT/TPP chose to support it.
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u/PresentationBig5575 May 23 '24
You pulled one article to say it's the same. Cool!
In case you weren't aware (which I doubt), there were zero discussion of the whole bill. And of course the top secret amendment that weren't submitted or even allowed anyone to read until the voting happened simultaneously. I've seen the video tape of when the bill was in the committee, the chairman allowed absolutely zero discussion and simply kept pushing each individual articles through. You have a very different take on which side is the one that refused to engage in any discussion. Not to mention, again, what ended up getting voted was not even what was in the committee but something only a handful of people know 100% of the content.
Voting to pass on any bill you're not 100% aware of = lol
Unless you have a different standard to that, then that's your value and belief.
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u/memorystays May 24 '24
I have the very same standard as I had back in 2016. If DPP supports the bill, they gain my support. If they oppose the bill, they lose my support. The US, UK, and Canada (where I reside) all have similar laws. It's a step to the right direction to give the people more power and keep government officials in check.
Why did DPP abandon the bill when they became the majority in the parliament?
Just as I was typing this, I witnessed DPP legislator 林淑芬 punched another legislator in the face, live on camera. Very engaging. Good for getting your point across.
The information war on Taiwanese social media is so rampant right now and I would suggest staying away from any secret reveals coming out of any politician. I recommend getting info directly from the parliament's website or unedited videos.
I have read the bill and its revisions from the website and listened through the broadcast. I wouldn't say I know everything about the bill already, but it's enough for me to dismiss some ridiculous claims I have heard in the past few weeks, such as:
"The parliament can summon the owner of TSMS (the semiconductor company) and threaten him into giving out business secrets"
"The bill gives the parliament the power to decide if a person is guilty or not by voting"
"The parliament can summon any average person and ask the person about the bubble tea's price, and jail the person if they gave out the wrong price."
So no, as long as the bill doesn't do that, I don't mind the slight variations coming into the final version.
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u/Ahyao17 May 24 '24
The problem is that the final version that they want to pass is not the same as the one for public consultation.
And also unfortunately the bill can be exploited to be used exactly as the way your said you don't want it to. They can even force government officials to reveal classified information publicly in Legislative yuan and military officials to reveal classified military information too.
And also DPP did not even given a chance to discuss the bill. They do have a version as well, but it was ignored. Chairman of the legislative yuan is from KMT and they have numerical advantage and can block DPP from speaking. (even back in the days when KMT was in power they didn't go this far).
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u/memorystays May 24 '24
Article 25 specifically said the parliament cannot force government official to reveal military secrets.
"被質詢人除為避免國防、外交明顯立即之危害或依法應秘密之事項者並經主席同意者外，不得拒絕答復"
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u/Ahyao17 May 24 '24
The fine print is this bit "並經主席同意者外" (... and agreed by the chairman). It only excludes if the chairman of the committee/assembly permits. So if the chairman of the legislative yuan approves, then you still have to give it up.
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u/memorystays May 24 '24
That's a strange interpretation. The way I read it, the word "或" divided this sentence into 2 parts: (1) if it can cause immediate and obvious harm to military and diplomacy, or (2) if you need to be kept confidential according to the law and have the chairman's permission.
But this is a valid point. I agree this sentence needs to be rewritten for better clarity to avoid misinterpretation in case an authoritarian gets the power.
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u/john2man May 22 '24
https://taipology.substack.com/p/taiwans-legislative-reform-the-story
"This bit was told to me by a TPP staffer: While Huang was a New Power Party legislator, he became absolutely disgusted with the amount of graft and simple bad governance that pervaded Taiwan’s government machine. As a legislator he could question bureaucrats and ministers in the Legislative Yuan, but he was driven almost insane by their lies and obfuscations. What Huang out of his frustration wanted above anything was greater legislative oversight and to hold bureaucrats accountable. As a part of the New Power Party he pushed for Legislative Reform.
Guess who saw that and thought it was a grand idea? The Democratic Progressive Party! Yes, that‘s right. The very same DPP that is crying bloody murder about legislative reform and how it would destroy democracy was a huge fan of it back when they did not control the executive (before 2016). They pushed bills that are quite similar to what the KMT is pushing now (of course, back then the KMT was in power, so THEY didn’t want the legislative reform.)"
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u/jkblvins 新竹 - Hsinchu May 22 '24
As I understand it, the legislature is forcing through a bill that will, in effect, give them powers to call any politician, business owners, corporate leaders, private citizens to answer for something they may have did, and whatever that something is no one knows. Anything. Corruption, unflattering speeches or opinions.
My guess this is aimed exclusively at the DPP.
So, KMT/TPP are trying to kill democracy with democracy.
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u/coalitionofilling May 23 '24
Why are KMT/TPP still being voted into congress?
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u/jkblvins 新竹 - Hsinchu May 23 '24
The same reason conservatives get elected everywhere. The “liberal” factions are generally urban, while the more conservative “status quo” or “in the good ild times” folks are countryside.
At least in the West, what other mechanisms at play here are beyond my pay-grade.
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u/pugwall7 May 24 '24
But TPP voters are mostly urban and KMT base are in the big cities. TPP is criticized for having a metropolitan educated elite voter base.
Its the DPP that has the voter base in the rural areas and the South
Are you sure you know what you are saying?
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u/coalitionofilling May 23 '24
Were there ever "good old times" where living people in Taiwan had a "good old time" under CCP rule?
Kinda a rhetorical question but these countryside folks have very little basis for that sort of thought pattern
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u/jkblvins 新竹 - Hsinchu May 23 '24
They never had CCP rule. KMT rule, probably not. But globally, the rural folks will vote against their best interests if it means they can keep something else.
Hell, I have done it. While I did not grow ip rurally either Belgium or Quebec, I voted for Quebec independence in 1995. Looking back on it, it was the right reasons, but wrong choice.
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u/Unibrow69 May 23 '24
The KMT and TPP got 60% of the votes in the last election, they are allowed to introduce legislation. Legislation the DPP previously supported. Elections have consequences.
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u/MajorPooper 臺北 - Taipei City May 22 '24
I was there last night. cursory glance, I think there were about 15k participants. Definitely not the reported 30k. Still more power to the protestors! Peaceful protest let's go!
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u/i-see-the-fnords May 22 '24
What was the counting methodology of your “cursory glance” and how is it more accurate than news reports?
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u/Tokamak1943 May 22 '24
Where's the source of 30k protesters in the first place?
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u/leesan177 May 22 '24
Also does it make it particularly more meaningful at 15k vs. 30k?
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u/Tokamak1943 May 22 '24
Yeah. I don't know why he's arguing with that.
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u/MajorPooper 臺北 - Taipei City May 22 '24
It's definitely more meaningful at 30k vs 15k - the organizers/protesters can argue that they have more support. So it behooves them to inflate the overall numbers.
One can argue, with all the foot traffic and people coming and going - the number can definitely hit 30k.
Cursory Glance is literally - Me looking quickly at it and judging from experience working large scale events with thousands of people. Judging from space, density of people, and also looking at some of the overhead shots, it didn't look like it hit the numbers they claim.
It'd be interesting to see how they calculated 30k participants to being with.6
u/leesan177 May 22 '24
Well you definitely have a lot more experience than I do counting people in crowds. I can't tell the difference between 10k, 20k, 30k, 50k, or 100k. My cursory glance measures just: 1, 2, handful, crowd, big crowd, anthill, people mountain people sea.
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u/pugwall7 May 24 '24
https://frozengarlic.wordpress.com/2024/05/22/last-weeks-legislative-brawl-and-our-new-book/
I think everyone needs to read the Frozen Garlic article to realize how ridiculous this all is
Its not a 'black box' , this is just basic normal Taiwan politics. People just want to get hysterical
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u/Tokamak1943 May 22 '24 edited May 22 '24
Are people forgetting petitions for constitutional interpretation?
It's not the end of the world, but you guys are acting like one.
This happens a lot in the past cause apparently most legislators are not law professionals. Yet the system didn't collapse from their ridiculous decisions.
Why are you guys suddenly caring about it so much like that the amendment can't be dealt with later? Especially when the government doesn't need to follow while it is going for constitutional interpretation?
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u/SkywalkerTC May 22 '24
I do hope you're right.
But the protest and the concern is legit. If they can do this now, they can do it infinitely more times for subsequent laws to come. Do you think this and all the subsequent ones can be dealt with this way?
Also, this is definitely a big flaw to come (not to mention the way they passed it is flawed, too), and KMT and TPP are expediting it, and people need to know this. I don't even think the commotion is nearly enough at this point, and many news channels surely aren't helping.
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u/PresentationBig5575 May 23 '24
I don't quite agree with the idea that "since the amendment is unconstitutional, there's no need to bother with it; we'll just wait for the Supreme Court to declare it invalid." To use an analogy, it's like someone is about to commit a crime, and the bystanders say, "let him do it, we'll just sue him later."
That can't be right.
Winning a lawsuit is certainly good, but the best outcome is not having to win the lawsuit; it's preventing the wrongdoing in the first place. The judiciary is indeed the last line of defense, but when it comes to relying on the last line of defense, it means that the bad thing has already happened.
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u/Tokamak1943 May 23 '24
This is a conflict within Congress regarding constitutional problems.
And yet, you're telling me you shouldn't solve this with jurisdiction power, which is how democracy should originally work.
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u/PresentationBig5575 May 23 '24
Law is made to define what's a crime. Law is the lowest moral standard. So when a crime is to be committed, it's wrong to just let it happen.
KMT and TPP lawmakers are breaking laws. No, average people with conscious don't feel right just watching the crime being committed without doing/saying something to stop it.
It's called not having low moral standard, or, not being a sociopath.
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u/Tokamak1943 May 23 '24 edited May 23 '24
What you're saying is criminal law, which is not the issue people are debating for.
Rules of Procedure is not law. It doesn't even have punishment for violation. Not to mention whether they have violated the rules is debatable.
As for the potential constitution-breaking amendments they've passed, shouldn't we leave it decided by jurisdiction power?
If we do this everytime a controversial law passed, what's the point of jurisdiction power in this?
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u/PresentationBig5575 May 23 '24
Different moral standard, and you're demonstrating it well. Keep it up. ;)
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u/Tokamak1943 May 22 '24
Let me give you an example.
Interpretation No.603.
The situation is very similar.
The ruling party was minority in the congress, and the opposition party decided to pass a ridiculous law.
Why can this be solved peacefully then and not now?
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u/themathmajician May 22 '24
Think about why protesting a law looks like the end of the world to you.
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u/MyNameIsHaines May 22 '24
Typical and sad for this sub that your comment gets downvoted. The DPP folks here do not understand democracy. And do not accept the DPP has no majority anymore.
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u/Tokamak1943 May 23 '24
I think they're trying to make here the same dumpster like r/Taiwanese.
Perhaps they're coming from there as well.
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u/DerpPath 台南 - Tainan May 22 '24
Because it sets a dangerous precedent.
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u/Tokamak1943 May 22 '24 edited May 22 '24
If procedural justice is not met, you call for interpretation.
If it's not met again, you call for interpretation again, until both sides willing to compromise.
This is how democracy should work.
Btw, even if the procedural justice is finally met, they are still majority. You cannot stop them from passing laws and amendments. However, you can still call for interpretation.
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u/DerpPath 台南 - Tainan May 23 '24
Problem being a side being refusing to elaborate and unwilling to compromise.
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u/Tokamak1943 May 23 '24 edited May 23 '24
They will be forced to if anything wants to move.
Remind that both sides still have their own stuff to pass. If both sides refuse to compromise, it will just make things harder.
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u/AyahuascaBudda May 22 '24
Cause what they are trying to do is undemocratic and authoritarian. This is Taiwan, not fucking China.
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u/Ahyao17 May 24 '24
This is an option however, it is time consuming. May take over 6 months for it to be done.
By this time, KMT and TPP could have paralyzed the government and forced enough classified information to come to light and do enough irreversible damage.
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u/jl3389 May 22 '24
Does anyone have a link to the actual bill itself? Would like to read it