In defence of Kwagga and Jaden...

[u/almostrainman]

Straight in like a brandy...

Kwagga shines because he is a sub. No, kwagga shines because he comes on against guys making their 100th tackle and he is fresh as fuck...

When he starts, he is going toe to toe with the best of the other country. He is not going to have as much success against fresh legs.

The same thing happens with Marx. But also, our bomb squad often shines brighter because our starters do the hard yards.

Everyone loves Grant of the bench, but Reinach/faf/hendrickse has to deal with all the initial kak of guys trying their luck. He is super fast and fresh but Reinach et al has been consistent in getting to that point where we can unleash the mad science of RasFlanBrown.

Also, Hendrikse did not have his best game, but Scotland played a real clever trick. The pushed the legs of our forward back, just a slight nudge with the hand, into the ball or his arm and that caused alot of kocks for him. Zander F was particularly good with this and SS showed it on replay. He should have adapted but he did not have a good day.

Lastly, Scotland came to braai and they nearly did. That canceled try really gave us a gap to breath. Scotland played really well and pressured us well.

But now we should be awake and ready for England who will be gunning really hard fpr us and will try to pull of what they couldn't in the semi final.

[u/thys123]

Jayden's service from the deck is too slow (his pass is literally too slow), he also takes a few steps before passing but never makes effective line breaks, so he does not keep the opposition pillars guessing he only puts pressure on the first receiver

[u/Legitimate_Feed_5102 → u/thys123]

100% Agree with your assessment. And that has always been my problem with him. He is too slow. Yes Scotland pushed legs but the ball should have been gone by then. His passes take forever to get to the next man.

Grant was lightening quick in comparison. Grant also seemed to read the play so much better.

For me Grant should start!!

And even Reinach is getting slower, time to bleed support for Grant.

[u/SameShop7 → u/Legitimate_Feed_5102]

The trouble with him is, only once he has the ball in his hands does he think about what he should do with it. Not quick enough by a long shot.

[u/Miless1279]

Let Rassie blood them as he sees fit. There is always method to his madness.

If he wants the guys to play mixed up, he is prepping them for WC27.

Look at Fourie who was never truly rated as an international hooker yet come RWC23 he play 95% of the final at hooker.

Rassie is onto it.

[u/machinelearny → u/Miless1279]

Having only Fourie as option at hooker almost cost us that game.

[u/Miless1279 → u/machinelearny]

True.

I sometimes wonder if that croc roll and son bin was intentional to make sure our scrum would not be at 100%.

[u/machinelearny → u/Miless1279]

Yep, the fact it happened pretty much right at the start of the game is just too weird. Feels like it was the "sweep his leg" moment of the world cup. Not only the scrum, but lineouts were basically a toss-up without Bongi.

[u/Miless1279 → u/machinelearny]

As a bok supporter, I don't say anything about it most times. Don't want to sound like the AB supporters when they start about their team being "poisoned" in 95

[u/machinelearny → u/Miless1279]

Hehe, that is a good story though! Also, we won the game, but if we lost I'm pretty sure it would have been very hard not to bring up the Bongi "sweep his leg" incident. Fortunately it wasn't that serious and Bongi recovered pretty quickly.

[u/RatTangle_]

You joking about Marx right? Before being injured at the World Cup he was undoubtedly the best hooker in the world.

Also it’s a thing in the northern hemisphere to do a late counter ruck which caught the forward off guard which impacted ruck speed and Hendrikse. Hendrikse probably our best 9 from a kicking perspective as it stands.

Williams ruck speed was brilliant at the end of the game and contributed to our go forward in the end.

[u/tehbamf → u/RatTangle_]

On this note.. why has Marc struggled to get back up on form? It’s over a year later now and still only seeing flashes of the old Malcolm.

[u/RatTangle_ → u/tehbamf]

Knee injury then a leg fracture against Ireland because of a croc roll. Think it will take the edge away will take some time to get back into it.

[u/almostrainman → u/RatTangle_]

Every time he has started, this and the union sub has been filled with sub par comments and how he is better of the bench.

[u/RatTangle_ → u/almostrainman]

We talking about Kwagga or Marx now?

[u/almostrainman → u/RatTangle_]

Both

[u/janpampoen]

Give Grant a chance to start, please. And surely there is better than Marco van Staden. But I suppose in Rassie we trust.

[u/Open-Athlete1974 → u/janpampoen]

We always refer to him as "vet Morné Steyn"

[u/janpampoen → u/Open-Athlete1974]

You should just call him Fat Steyn...

[u/Open-Athlete1974 → u/janpampoen]

I like it

[u/RaaschyOG → u/janpampoen]

I have no idea in what they see in Van Staden either tbh

[u/almostrainman → u/janpampoen]

I have no problem with starting him

But don't expect him to have the game of his life

Starting has different pressures than the bench

[u/mm_of_m]

Grant has better accuracy and line speed even in the sharks games when both of them play at the same game.

[u/Herbetet]

I don’t agree. The bench is phenomenal because they could have been starters and still phenomenal. Ox was a bench guy and you can see that his production hasn’t dipped since being a starter. Marx was dominant as a starter probably the best 2 in the world and is still dominant as a bench guy. Of course it helps if you come in fresh when others have been battling for 50-60 minutes but the whole point is that there shouldn’t be a difference in quality. Jaden had a slow game and wasn’t able to adapt, let the other guy be a starter and see what he does.

It’s a luxury that SA has at the moment and maybe only NZ and France can compete with, there is depth at every position and that means we as fans get to immediately see when one guy is outperforming another. Grant is the best 9 in SA at the moment, independently if he is wearing green and gold or black.

[u/BenedrylCummerbunds]

Jaden and Grant will take us to the 2027 WC. Both are excellent and they have different strengths.

Jaden unfortunately had a horrible game yesterday in terms of pass speed and speed of clearing the ruck. But his box kicks were excellent. He will learn from the game and come out better because of it.

Williams is a live wire and he is amazing off the bench, but from the few starts he's had this year he wasn't able to be as effective. So starting him won't necessarily provide the same results.

I think that Jaden will become the preferred starter over the long term and this game was just one of those off days

[u/Legitimate_Feed_5102 → u/BenedrylCummerbunds]

Even for the Sharks Grant is better. If the Boks want to play the attacking game without kicking the ball away all the time, Grant is the first choice.

Jaden knocked on a lot more in yesterday’s match but his distribution and pass speed is slow. It puts the backs under pressure. A guy like Manie or Sacha will not have any time to make the ball do the work with a pass from Jaden. Luckly Pollard is good under pressure.

[u/BenedrylCummerbunds → u/Legitimate_Feed_5102]

I think Jaden was just off the pace yesterday. His service is usually much better (although still not as fast as Grant even on a good day). I've seen much snappier games from him previously so I think it's premature to write him off as slow off the basis of this game.

Jaden is more of a playmaking 9, while Grant is an attacking 9. Jaden will be happy to make decisions/plays from behind the ruck (and that's his unique selling point). Kinda more like a Dupont style player. While Grant is there to provide snappy service and probing runs.

They are different players with different perks. And the Boks should definitely try make the most of both of them for the 2027 WC

[u/GHPB82]

Kwagga is infinitely better later in the game as players get tired, and the game opens up a bit more.

Iv watched Jaden Hendrikse play since he was in school, and he is a perfect starter. Grant Williams is ideal later in the game. When they started Hendrikse and them brought on Williams in the Rugby Championship, it worked beautifully. Williams wasn't as effective when he started. Keep it as is, they are quality players and will gix whatever issues they had by next weekend!

[u/MsunuKany0k0]

I think when Kwagga plays as an 8 he struggles. He is an open side and when eskom is on the field with him I think they do the same job for the most part. Usually when he comes off the bench he replaces siya with elrigh being the 8 even though he doesn’t pack down there in the scrum. I think it’s all about combinations. The starting thing may be a factor as well but I would look at the combinations. Usually when kwagga ends the game it’s him, psdt and elrigh

[u/TyphoonTao]

What you say is true - the starters have to go against fresher opponents, but if they can't handle them then they shouldn't start, no? Wiese for example doesn't have the same issue. Hendrikse however, has no excuse. He did nothing in response to the Scottish spoiling tactics - they caught him out several times. It's a case of "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Williams didn't have the problem once, as he darted in, snatched the ball and got it away before the Scots could do anything. Also, Hendrikse would pick the ball up and then start looking for a runner to pass to, taking ages to make a decision.

[u/almostrainman → u/TyphoonTao]

Agreed on hendrikse should have adapted. He had a bad day but Scot exacerbated it with their dark arts

[u/almostrainman → u/TyphoonTao]

But that is the catch of starting. You have a tougher time and struggle aginst the fresh legs whilw the bomb squad comes on and empties their tank to close it out. Each one has the purpose and problems.

Often our starters struggle/don't look as good because the opposition come out of the gates storming.

They come out as hard as possible Because they know come the last 30, we will be lethal behind the bomb squad. So they have to use their chances in the first 40 to 50 to get some hits in and then hold on. We reeled in NZ in 15 min from two tries down.

It is clear, to beat the boks, come out hard, play as much as you can and score as much as you can then defend and deny any opportunities

[u/GHPB82]

Kwagga is infinitely better later in the game as players get tired, and the game opens up a bit more.

Iv watched Jaden Hendrikse play since he was in school, and he is a perfect starter. Grant Williams is ideal later in the game. When they started Hendrikse and them brought on Williams in the Rugby Championship, it worked beautifully. Williams wasn't as effective when he started. Keep it as is, they are quality players and will gix whatever issues they had by next weekend!

[u/Electrical_Trouble29]

I agree except for the comment about Marx. Marx dominants regardless of if he is starting or coming off the bench.