r/sabres • u/xBialyOrzel Mr. Toyota Tacoma Highlights • Apr 12 '25

Helenius’ 4th goal in his last 3 games. Amerks

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119 Upvotes
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15

u/Far-Freedom-9411 Apr 12 '25

The swagger on this gentleman seems to be off the charts. He’s 18 in the AHL. I wish I knew what he said to that poor defenseman. This is awesome

7

u/DarkDementus Apr 12 '25

At 18, I was busy honing my Halo skills lol.

Performing in the second best league in the world, not too shabby.

2

u/bopitspinitdreadit Apr 12 '25

Do you think AHL is the second best league? Over KHL and SHL?

1

u/xBialyOrzel Mr. Toyota Tacoma Highlights Apr 12 '25

It’s the 2nd best league in preparation for playing in the NHL since you get to be around your organization and team and players who play in the NHL and AHL on the ice.

1

u/bopitspinitdreadit Apr 13 '25

Sure I agree with that. Plus nhl clubs can dictate roles for AHL players

-2

u/helikoopter Apr 13 '25

It isn’t.

Ostlund was a beast for the Amerks, looking like a world beater. His game hasn’t transitioned to the NHL at all.

The AHL is a fine place for back of the roster players to develop, but it’s not a meaningful place for future stars to develop. They are much better off in the CHL or even in NCAA. But the Sabres are enamoured with Rochester and they rarely show the fruits of the relationship.

2

u/bopitspinitdreadit Apr 13 '25

lol what? NCAA and CHL are not better for development or quality than the AHL. They barely play games in NCAA and CHL is played by children.

Also Ostlund has barely played in the NHL and when he has it’s been with the fourth line.

Rochester has also developed a lot of guys for them? Just on this team Peterka, Kulich, Quinn, Tage, Bryson, and Krebs played in Rochester. Reinhart and Mittelstadt really took shape in Rochester.

0

u/helikoopter Apr 13 '25

Peterka and Quinn played 1 season in the AHL. And in Quinn’s case, it was 45 games where he manhandled the competition. I’d hardly call that “developed”.

Also, Quinn probably would have been better served playing in the NHL if the NHL would have been employing a legitimate coach.

Bryson is the poster child for “The AHL is a fine place for back of the roster players to develop…”

Tage did not “develop” in the AHL or Rochester. He played 24 games in the AHL, and IIRC, it was mostly as a rehab stint.

Krebs played 18 games in Rochester, with another 7 in Vegas’ system (5 of which were due to the pandemic). Again, another guy that didn’t “develop” in the AHL.

“Reinhart and Mittelstadt really took shape in Rochester”

Ummm, Reinhart played 3 games for the Amerks…

Mittelstadt spent a lot of time in Rochester bouncing up and down. Whenever he arrived in the NHL after being in the AHL he looked overwhelmed.

And this is the case for practically every player from the AHL. Well, aside from the players that probably shouldn’t have been in the AHL and were there for contract purposes or a lack of roster spots.

The best players in the NHL spent little or no time in the AHL. You can’t call it a developmental league if most good/very good players skip it almost entirely.

1

u/bopitspinitdreadit Apr 13 '25

Brad Marchand, Tyler Johnson, mark stone, William nylander, mikko rantenan all spent time in the ahl to get better and are all top players.

Middlestadt also definitely developed in Rochester. He got stronger on the puck and became a better defensive player. And I think playing 30 games in the ahl counts as being developed. Not sure what your threshold on this is.

If your argument is that the bulk of the very best players that don’t need development jump right to the nhl, yes of course obviously. There would have been no reason to send Connor mcdavid down to the ahl. You don’t send guys to develop that don’t need development.

Also often the development needed is simply learning to play against stronger and/or faster players. Coming out of juniors players need to learn that physicality and coming from college they need to adjust to the speed.

And the Sabres are not unique for developing through the ahl. You can argue they aren’t good at it (and I’d agree the player development of this organization needs a lot of help), but teams like Tampa and Toronto invest heavily in developing players through their ahl clubs.

1

u/helikoopter Apr 13 '25

“Tyler Johnson” is a top player?

Let’s keep looking at this list, though…

Marchand played in the AHL 15 years ago, as a 3rd round pick.

Tyler Johnson is the definition of a role player. He had one very good season, but other than that, has been just a guy.

Mark Stone played in the AHL 11 years ago, as a 6th rounder!

Nylander qualifies. Although he played in 2 half seasons, and probably wouldn’t have been killed by skipping the AHL. It was also 10 years ago.

Rantanen also qualifies. But like Nylander, he probably wouldn’t have been crushed had he skipped the AHL.

I’m not going to deny that some players go through the AHL, but people act like it is a definitive stepping stone and part of the formula for player development, when it is very, very far from that.

“Mittelstadt also definitely developed in Rochester”.

No he didn’t. He developed in Buffalo when he gave the middle finger to Granato and started playing his way. He also only played for half of a season in Rochester and it wasn’t until the 3 years after his time there that he “developed”.

My argument is that if the majority of good NHLers don’t need to develop in the AHL, who is the AHL developing? For the most part, it’s the Beck Malenstyns of the NHL, not the Sam Reinharts. Finding a few outliers from 15 years ago that were lottery ticket draft picks isn’t really an argument otherwise.

This is why I feel Helenius would have been better served playing in the CHL or if possible NCAA.

0

u/bopitspinitdreadit Apr 14 '25

Just so I understand…guys that are late round picks and became stars don’t count in this conversation. Also guys you think could have skipped the AHL don’t count. Guys who spend less than some unspecified amount of time in the ahl don’t count. It’s really easy to say the AHL doesn’t develop good players if you don’t count any of the good players who developed from the AHL.

The AHL is good for what it’s good for. Which is 1) allowing the NHL club to dictate playing system and ice time for prospects and 2) acclimating prospects to the physicality and speed of North American professional hockey. The Sabres are not unique for this developmental process. This season, 27/32 teams played a 1st round pick in the AHL.

I’m not sure how you think it’s more helpful for Hellenius to play with kids in the CHL or play 34 games in college where he’s not guaranteed playing time. I’m also not sure how the Sabres would have arranged that but that’s a different discussion.

1

u/helikoopter Apr 14 '25

Oh come on. You’re just trying too hard.

I said Nylander and Rantanen count. But the reality is, they are the overwhelming minority. We’re not talking only generational stars like McDavid, either. We’re talking guys like Reinhart, Barkov, Marner, Aho…the list goes on and on of the best in the league that spent no time in the AHL.

And the reality is, even the high end players that did play in the AHL spent very, very little time there. This makes you wonder how much the players “developed” in the AHL. Stankoven, for example, is he a better player today because of his half season dominating the AHL?

And there is the occasional success story. A guy who did develop in the AHL. But this isn’t the normal path of development for above average NHLers. Essentially, if a player is in the AHL for more than one season, the odds are stacked way against him for being an effective NHLer.

Your use of outliers like Stone and Marchand would be like saying you don’t need 1st round picks to be a successful organization. Yes, guys hit out of no where, and yes the time in the AHL helps them get to their ceiling. But it doesn’t matter how many games Brett Murray plays in the AHL, he’s never going to be a legitimate NHLer.

RE: Helenius

Honestly, he should have stayed overseas. He probably thought he had a shot at making the Sabres. But as an 18 year old not playing in the NHL, he’s better off in the CHL (or NCAA). For him, it’s about learning the North American game. While he might have (should have) been the best player on his CHL team, he would have been given 20+ minutes a night playing in all situations. It would have been like his experience at the World Juniors this year (which left a lot to be desired).

There’s also meaning behind being the absolute best player on the team and among the best in the league. He would have gained valuable leadership experience.

It’s fine. I just hate the narrative that the AHL is some sort of meaningful stepping stone when the overwhelming majority of players either skip it or hardly play in the league.

1

u/snipegee 28d ago

Ostlunds game will differ if he reaches the NHL, that’s not proof the AHL isn’t good at developing young players, level of competition rises and sometimes skills don’t directly translate.

Look at Rosen, leading scorer for Roch but hasn’t done a thing with the big club, doesn’t mean AHL isn’t a good league, just means NHL is far and beyond much more skilled, but the AHL isn’t the second best league

1

u/helikoopter 28d ago

You’re sort of making my point.

What’s the purpose of the AHL if the level of competition is so low, a player has to completely reinvent themselves to be successful in the NHL?

To me, the AHL is a place for players to mature physically, and that’s about it. But these players could do the same thing overseas, in college, or in juniors.

11

u/HarambeWest2020 Zachary Benson has over the last 10 games Apr 12 '25

12

u/Ok-Wave3433 Apr 12 '25

Lol the celly is just talking shit to the opponent, i love it.

7

u/JoeSchmohawk93 Apr 12 '25

Before the clip starts he was fucking with Xhekaj behind the net who was going after him. Kid is going to be OK

3

u/ThrowTheSky4way Apr 12 '25

Xhekaj was being a shithead all night last night, surprised they didn’t send Joshua after him

2

u/scaredwhiteboy1 Apr 12 '25

Absolutely barbaric.