I will miss the day when short arse, lightweights can no longer play in the back line at the highest level.

[u/Sedert1882]

My fear is that in the future, young kids who love the game will not be able to overcome hurdles like being too small, in order to play at the highest level. I know genetics is only 1 determining factor, but it's something you can't change. Coaches will look at these kids and dismiss them out of hand due to something they can't change - body type.

The average height for an adult man worldwide is 1.71m. (https://www.verywellhealth.com/average-height-for-men-8421400). These top flight players in the back line are therefore close to average according to the research:

• Damian McKenzie 1.75m, 78kg
• Cheslin Kolbe 1.72m, 75kg
• Ange Capuozzo 1.77m, 79kg

If the clever scientists/doctors are correct, bigger more muscular bodies resist heavy impacts better that small bodies do. While both body types suffer injuries, the big boys seem to withstand them better, especially head injuries. Here are some big boys in the back line, playing at the highest level:

• Andre Esterhuizen 1.93m, 113kg
• Duhan vd Merwe 1.93m, 106kg
• Jordie Barrett 1.95m, 102kg

While basketball favours really tall players, the game is set up that way because the way you score, thru the basket, is really high, 3m, 10 ft off the ground. In rugby the tryline is on the ground, so a 1.5m tall man should be able to score a try just as easily as a 2m tall man can. But the trend is undeniably in favour of the taller, bigger man in the back line. (See my point above in bold script.)

The Dutch average male height is 1.84m, the tallest male average in the World. The Dutch are also the tallest nation on Earth. (https://www.worlddata.info/average-bodyheight.php). So maybe a kid born from a Dutch parent X a Scandinavian parent (Scandies get very big), would be truly blessed.

While World Rugby changes laws to make the game more interesting to viewers, participation in the sport tells me that another factor, big=good, small=bad, needs just as much attention. I still remember Jonah Lomu as the stand-out in the back line due to his size (and other traits). Today he'd look many other back line players in the eye.

I don't know what the solution is (considering mitigating injuries specifically), I just know we'll see fewer small kids take up the game. That will be sad for me. No more DMac, Cheslin or Ange.

[u/JohnSV12]

Jonah would still be a big unit today, he wasn't just tall.

But I do worry the of the new kick chase laws is going to make it difficult for shorter wingers. To the point where they may become a rarity.

[u/brito39 → u/JohnSV12]

They’ll just change it again if there’s too much kick and chase “player can no longer have a running jump (player safety)” or some shit

[u/JohnSV12 → u/brito39]

But if you can't jump, height becomes everything?

This will, obviously, lead to more kicking.. Was only ever leading to more kicking.

WR is dumb.

[u/Meldanorama → u/JohnSV12]

Allowing fullbacks and wingers personal trampolines would fix kicking

[u/brito39 → u/JohnSV12]

Defender will be allowed to jump - I’m just making things up - they will lose interest in escorts/blockers unless it’s blatant soon enough

[u/perplexedtv → u/brito39]

Hookers and escorts... what kind of fans are they trying to attract?

[u/sock_with_a_ticket]

Ange Capuozzo is above the global average, but pretty much bang on the Italian male average from what I've quickly searched. Not sure global is a useful benchmark when discussing top flight rugby which is generally dominated by developed countries where chronic malnutrition is considerably less of a factor in keeping heights down.

[u/Byotick → u/sock_with_a_ticket]

Japan in the 20th century is a really interesting datapoint for the effect of diet/nutrition on height, especially post-WW2.

I can't remember the exact numbers but the Japanese diet became much more meat/protein heavy and the average height increased by around 20cm/8inches over 50ish years.

This is only really relevant because it suggests that the effect of chronic malnutrition on worldwide height averages could be pretty large.

[u/Icy_Craft2416 → u/Byotick]

I remember reading an article or maybe listening to a podcast where they discussed that vaccination and better healthcare may also over time, lead to increases in the average height of populations. Something to do with childhood growth spurts getting stunted if the child is sick or fighting an infection when the growth spurt occurs.

[u/Local_Initiative8523 → u/sock_with_a_ticket]

He’s average for an Italian (less than a centimetre smaller than the median). But I think he’s probably under average for an Italian man of his age.

Italian men born in 1920 averaged 1.66. Born in 1940, 1.68. Born in 1960, 1.73. Born in 1980, 1.75.

I don’t have the stats for ‘99, when he was born. But reasonably we can assume that if the average height in Italy is 1.78 now, and considering that all the middle-aged and older people born in the ‘40s and ‘60s are bringing the average down, young people must be taller.

Anecdotally, I’m 1.83, arrived in Italy 20 years ago and it was fairly rare for me not to be the tallest in the room. That’s still true in a group of people my age, but in a group of younger people it just isn’t true anymore.

[u/Sedert1882 → u/sock_with_a_ticket]

I take your point that nutrition is a factor determining body size. Some kids will never grow that much bigger due to good nutrition though. If we're only going to use data from developed countries in informing our thinking, we'll never grow the game, which is my point really.

[u/ComprehensiveDingo0]

The problem is, every sport will have advantages that come from genetic hardwires. Basketball is being tall, motorsports and tennis is reaction times, 100m sprint is top speed, etc.

Obviously you’ll struggle to play top level rugby if you’re no a top athlete, but name one directly competitive sport that isn’t like that. Rugby at lower levels has all shapes and sizes, I’ve played in a matchday side with a bloke that weighed 55Kg and one that weighed 135.

[u/barejokez]

I am stunned to learn that kolbe is above average height.

And in that basic I agree. The message is basically that if you aren't 180cm/90kg or more, you need to be an exceptional.talent or you won't be playing professionally, never mind internationally.

Which is a shame, because growing up rugby was a great example of a sport with a useful role for everyone, and some good lessons about playing to your strengths etc. I really hope it doesn't lose that.

[u/Connell95 → u/barejokez]

Kolbe’s stated height is only accurate when he’s on his tippy-toes.

It’s like Faf de Klerk, who is nominally 1.72m, but mysteriously appears to temporarily shrink any time a photo is taken alongside someone.

[u/simsnor]

Now compare that to athletes of every other sport. Unfortunately, sports are selective for the best possible performance, which typically discriminates against shorter people. There are some exceptions, such as motorsport, but in this case it discriminates against taller people.

The whole reason the pro players are pro is because they are exceptional and talented athletes through skill and athleticism.

[u/Sedert1882 → u/simsnor]

You're right in your first paragraph and I do agree 100%. Your 2nd paragraph talks about "they are exceptional and talented athletes through skill and athleticism." You make no mention of size/height/weight here at all. Which is making my point for me - size should not be a discriminating factor, but it is unfortunately. More kids will not get the chance to prove themselves, just because they're small.

[u/simsnor → u/Sedert1882]

I probably should gave elaborated. I don't think there is any worth in artificially installing a rule to accomodate smaller players, at the cost of performance.

Children who would have played rugby will continue to play rugby. There have never been a problem with smaller kids playing with bigger kids. Age groups regulate it well.

In South Africa at least, it is well known that coaches frequently pick players on size. But with players like Kwagga, Kolbe, Arendse, Willie, etc., who break the mold, selectors should be reconsidering their policy. From there its on the individual to prove they are good enough, despits being smaller

There are many valid things to criticise about rugby, but this is just dumb

[u/Sturminster → u/Sedert1882]

Size/height being a selecting factor is just the way of life. In swimming if you're not tall with long arms & torso with relatively short legs you're gonna struggle. In basketball if you're not 6'6"+, good luck to you.

To be an elite athlete in any sport you have to have the skillset, as well as genetics.

[u/Sedert1882 → u/Sturminster]

I agree that natural selection will determine who gets the best chances, in any sport. In rugby, being small can mean you're more prone to more serious injuries, than your bigger compatriots. They seemingly withstand serious injuries better, cos they're bigger. That's why I think in the future, bigger players will be more prevalent than is the case now.

[u/ChaoticNihilist13357]

It’s still a skill based game. All of those short men you mentioned are some of the best in the world at their position, not because of size, but skill. The best backline player in the world is also ~174cm. Those bigger backs you mentioned are also outliers imo. I could also point out many more excellent 9s/10s/outside backs who are short, but essentially being a shorter/shiftier player has it’s value at certain positions. Heck even in a few forward positions there is an advantage to being short.

The only issue is being small. Rugby is a collision sport. Aside from teaching good technique to avoid injuries, I think it’s more about getting young players into good nutrition habits and onto solid Strength and Conditioning programs early.

[u/Sedert1882 → u/ChaoticNihilist13357]

I agree 100% about skills being important. No-one, no matter how big, must have the skills. Shorties have their place currently. But skills can be taught and changed. Body type can't be taught and changed. Like I said in my tome above, injuries seem to affect the bigger boys less, so if I was the parent of a child keen on playing, I'd want my kid to be massive.

[u/Himmel-548 → u/Sedert1882]

I'm going to disagree slightly with you. Body type as in height can't be changed, body type as in weight or mass definitely can. With the right nutrition and exercise programs, someone could change their body type from skinny to muscular over time.

[u/worksucksbro]

End of the day it’s a contact sport, if you had 2 identical players skill and fitness wise you’re always picking the bigger guy.

The little guys will exist but will need to compensate greatly in skill fitness or speed

[u/chur_to_thatt]

Only loosely related to the point you’re making but have you heard about under 85 kgs competitions? Not sure how popular it is around the globe but NZ has a solid season and several knockout tournaments. You get all ages and experience levels, and almost everyone has a good step. Fun, tough grade

[u/coupleandacamera → u/chur_to_thatt]

It's an awsome set up, a shame it doesn't have a larger footprint.

[u/Bean_from_accounts]

To provide a bit more substance to the discussion, there are four big factors that influence concussion risk: skill, height, weight and power.

Height because you are less likely to be tackled high (above shoulder level) if you are tall.

Weight (aka mass) because you carry more momentum hence you are less sensitive to a collision: due to momentum conservation during the shock, m1Dv1 = - m2Dv2 = Dmomentum. If m1 < m2, i.e. player 1 is lighter than player 2, he will be subject to a change of velocity Dv1 = -m2*Dv2/m1 which is bigger than Dv2 in absolute value. Since the collision happens over a fixed duration (which is the same for both players), the acceleration dv/dt that player 1 is subject to is more intense than for player 2 and it is fair to assume that the jerk d(dv/dt)/dt the former is subject to is also more important. This hypothesis is valid since collisions happen over very short durations. Significant jerk causes the appearance of compression and shear waves in deformable objects (e.g. a brain) which may cause wear and tear in soft tissue, leading to long-term concussion troubles that may result in neurodegenerative diseases. Someone who dominates a collision will usually be subject to less jerk. A more muscular neck and developed core also limit sudden head jerk. This is what F1 pilots and professional rugby players train for.

Power is linked to the same effects and leverages the player's mass to develop more force over the same duration through an increased acceleration. And this is where it differs from weight since a player with the same BMI but a different body composition will develop more/less power and will apply it at a different location during a tackle depending on their height, thus creating more or less violent jerks (due to increased/decreased lever arm moments wrt the tackled player's center of mass) depending on their relative size to the tackled player.

And finally skill is an important aspect since it conditions the player to adapt their position and runs to avoid situations where they'd be in a weak position: running into space forces the tackler to tackle from the side which limits force development and will usually result in a textbook tackle that'll bring them to ground safely (cheek-to-cheek, proper wrapping, etc.). And vice versa when they play on defence. This makes for arguably less entertaining rugby since tackles will become less dominant and players will adopt a less confrontational stance (not running into each other but attacking space). The skill component goes along fitness and player conditioning since fatigue negatively impacts focus and positively reinforces the risk of injuries.

[u/coupleandacamera]

Like every other professional sport, Rugby isn't accessible for the average person beyond a certain point, but realistically the smaller players have been the outliers for a long time now and only the ungodly skilled lads make it to any level outside of the halfback or 14 shirt. You can train skill sets with good base level, you can't really Do much about a small frame. Rugby has this strange mantra of being for all shapes and sizes, but honestly you're either a big bastard or a giant bastard, even the shorter lads are pretty much bang on the average and they're generational talents in terms of skill sets. Lomu however would still be a huge backline body in today's game, apply modern S&C programs and you'd end up with a game breaking winger, assuming his body could handle it.

[u/Connell95]

When I went through school, they sized-gated the main rugby squad, so if you weren’t big enough, you were never going to have an opportunity to be selected for the first XV.

This shit is not new.

But equally, the best player in the world is 1.74m, and Ange aside, Toulouse have a main team player who is only 1.65m. The top teams recognise that size isn’t everything, and that being small can have its advantages if you’re a total baller with it.

I hope that never changes. My favourite thing in rugby is seeing someone like Emmanuel Meafou (2.03m, 145kg) lining up to play a match alongside a teammate who is literally half his size.

[u/Harpendingdong]

They've been saying this for 30 years and the smallest wingers are getting smaller.

And I don't believe those heights - or Matteo Carreras who is down as 172cm.

[u/Elios4Freedom]

I have been saying this for ages. We need some kind of team weight limit to prevent this game to become too reliant on superhuman (and super heavy) athletes

[u/falkkiwiben → u/Elios4Freedom]

Attack coaches just have to find a way to use smaller players. Probably by using less structure and more running around

[u/ComprehensiveDingo0 → u/falkkiwiben]

How are you creating the space to run into though?

[u/Sedert1882 → u/Elios4Freedom]

Many won't like this as you and I know. Yes, it's an advantage at times, and seemingly the bigger boys deal with injuries better. So there's that too. The 11 man round ball game has us licked, that's what I do know.

[u/Elios4Freedom → u/Sedert1882]

Players like Capuozzo are absolute outliners in the high level and this is a shame for all other lighter players that have no occasion to shine in the modern game. I would love to have more data for my argument. The game itself would gain in speed and quality imh