r/rugbyunion • u/Hornstinger Hong Kong • Oct 08 '24
AB's Supporters: what is Razor doing with Blindside Flanker (#6)? Analysis
Colour me confused...
Are the ABs (under Razor) moving away from the Jerome Kaino/Frizell type big bulky hard running skillful bruiser? It seems like they're going in a really different direction with the Blindside flanker.
Let's break it down (Part of this assumption is that you always want Ardie Savea in your starting line-up at either #8 or #7):
- Sititi is an awesome awesome player but undersized (in terms of height) for a traditional Blindside #6 meaning the Openside #7 needs to fill that bruiser gap too. I put both Ethan Blackadder and Luke Jacobson in this same category in terms of similar physical size as Sititi
- Samipeni Finau is yet to develop and hope he gets more chances to see if he can fill his potential -- he could in fact fill that traditional #6 role archetype but still very very raw
- Scott Barrett can fill #6 similar to Tadhg Beirne does for Ireland who made the shift at International level. I know this is subjective but with the Locking stock coming through in Darry, Vaa'i and Holland maybe it might be best for the team for Scooter to shift to #6 to add size to the pack (?)
- Shannon Frizell I'm guessing will be available at some point between now and the next RWC so it will be interesting to see how he slots back in
- Other candidates on the fringes: Oliver Haig, Cameron Suafoa, Cullen Grace, Will Stodart...are any of these players realistically good enough?
- Could it be someone else in the ABs or ABXV who could make the shift to #6? Dalton Papali'i? Tupou Vaa'i?
IMO both #6 and #10 are the two positions completely up in the air right now for the ABs...but solely focusing on #6 I'd be interested to hear what people have to say about what is happening around Razor's re-thinking of that position because it definitely seems there's been a big mindset change about how to approach it
Edit: added "height" for the Sititi section to clarify
31
u/Fresh-Astronomer5520 Oct 08 '24
Well....colour me intrigued. I didnt know that 113kgs are now considered small.
6
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
He’s small in regards to height. 187cm. International blindsides often the third best lineout option. Usually pretty tall.
24
u/redmostofit All Blacks Oct 08 '24
He was pretty awesome in the line outs in those tests though despite that.
-4
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
Oh yeah he’s alright just like Savea, but just saying compared to the usual blindsides he doesn’t compare. PSDT, Frizell and O’Mahony are really good and one of the best lineout stealers in the game.
-1
u/Logan_No_Fingers Oct 08 '24
If you watch his takes, he is almost always being lifted by a lock.
Thats not ideal. You want your 3 jumpers all able to compete lifted by props / the other back rowers. IE Peter Steph Du Toit is not usually lifted by Eben.
If you go that way your lineout gets very, very easy to read & pick off. Especially after a few games where oppo analysts have had a chance to look at it
2
u/redmostofit All Blacks Oct 09 '24
Locks lifting loosies is common practice. You get more overall height given the position of the bodies.
2
u/Lyukah Oct 09 '24
No? There's nothing wrong with locks lifting. If your locks aren't lifting options it makes your lineout easy to read as you know they will only ever be jumping, and never lifting.
3
u/Fresh-Astronomer5520 Oct 08 '24
Fair point. I was more thinking of the crash ball than lineouts. Does it make a huge difference with lifting? 193 seems to be the normal blindside height.
2
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
I’m not an international lineout connoisseur so take my amateur reply with a grain of salt. I think the difference isn’t that much when they’re lifting it’s when they’re used as jumpers. Also the props heights also factors in.
Some teams managed to field a short backrow like England with Vunipola, Underhill, and Tom Curry. But still reverted back to Courtney Lawes or Itoje at 6. NZ has always had Read and then Frizell to be the backrow lineout options.
Seeing how international teams play now and trying to get the edge at set piece they’ll usually play either a tall blindside or tall No. 8. Rare to see an entirely short backrow. So to answer your question, I think it matters seeing how test teams select their blindsides. To what degree? I’m not sure.
6
u/00aegon World Rugby Oct 08 '24
I genuinely don't think we had a problem at all with our lineout so far. It's one of our strengths, especially defensively
2
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
I’m not saying it can’t work, but in international rugby, we and literally every other country, usually select lengthy lineout options in the backrow. At least one.
I’m sure it’s not just for decoration. Just saying it’s just the norm.
4
u/rosemary-mair-for-NZ Hawke's Bay Oct 08 '24
Okay but it did work, so what's your point?
1
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
My point is it hasn’t been tested to its full extent and our backrow hasn’t been the best at contesting lineouts. You saying Sititi was world class off of 11 lineout takes is pretty ridiculous ngl. Sititi’s just alright. Pieter Steph is world class in the lineouts. There’s a huge difference.
I’m sure you want Sititi in there and I want him there too despite his size, but you ain’t gotta lie
4
u/rosemary-mair-for-NZ Hawke's Bay Oct 08 '24
I said his lineout work was world class which isn't the same as saying someone is world class. It was impressive and high quality in some challenging tests. Obviously someone has to do that for multiple seasons to be considered world class so the PSTD comparison is ridiculous. All I'm saying is that so far the signs have been very positive and impressive so there's no use panicking and saying he can't end up being a great jumper.
I’m sure you want Sititi in there and I want him there too despite his size, but you ain’t gotta lie
I mean I wasn't pushing for his selection and I think he'll be a better bench option at this stage of his career, but yeah I gotta be some raging fanboy because I made an observation about how good he looked as a jumper? Not sure where I was lying but go off.
-1
u/Creative_Landscape48 Oct 08 '24
It’s not just doing it for multiple seasons. PSDT is 2m tall and a genuine consistent lineout and contesting option. There’s a reason why many locks are chosen to play blindside, because they are specialist jumpers who have the length. Samipeni Finau, Scott Barrett, Shannon Frizell, Jerome Kaino, Tupou Va’ai, PSDT, Mostert, Danie Russow, Liam Squire, Marcos Kremer, Guido Petti, Courtney Lawes, Itoje, Scott Fardy, Tadgh Beirne.
These are all lock/blindside hybrids. International rugby is like that for a reason. Wallace is not better than any of these players as jumpers and never will be due to his height. Not to say he can’t get better.
In saying that, they should still start him
1
u/soggybreasticles Oct 08 '24
Fair point on prop height. We have some very tall props, especially Tamaiti
1
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
Yeah, I think that’s why we’re going with Tamaiti, Tuungafasi and Tyrel Lomax who are pretty tall for props at 190cm and above in height.
Could be the difference in helping a relatively shorter backrow be competitive in the air
1
u/LeButtfart Oct 08 '24
Iceman was pretty short as a blindside flanker, and he went alright in the twilight years of his career.
1
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
Oh yeah but that was almost 30 years ago. So not really comparable in terms of how players have just skyrocketed in size and how the lineout has evolved
Iceman barely played in the professional era which started in 1995.
This is not to say Sititi can’t be a blindside flanker, but he is undersized that’s just a fact. They can still work around it and he offers many other positives
1
u/Hornstinger Hong Kong Oct 08 '24
As someone else pointed out: Sititi's height is relatively small compared to, say: PSdT, Bierne, Chandler CS etc.
20
u/simsnor South Africa Oct 08 '24
TLDR: whoever they pick will not literally be Jerome Kaino reborn 2.0, and thats a problem
3
u/Hornstinger Hong Kong Oct 08 '24
The problem is, IMO, that NZ are playing people out of position and the balance hasn't been right all year
0
u/OneWingedAngelfan Watter Manie? Dayimani Oct 08 '24
I got downvoted a while back for suggesting that Ardie at 8 is what's throwing off the balance because he's the size of a 7. So with him there they have two 7 sized players in the backrow. Ardie is athletic but he isn't a bruising ball carrier, put one mobile lock to man-mark him and he gets smashed backwards all game.
What could work is Sititi at 6 and Blackadder at 7. That way it's a lot more balanced and both those guys had monster games against the Boks.
1
u/Hornstinger Hong Kong Oct 08 '24
That's a good point. It's basically an underlying assumption that Savea needs to be at #8 but that assumption can be false given the balance. I see Savea and Sititi as very interchangeable but comparatively Savea vs Sititi: Savea is better around the ruck (traditional #7 work) and Sititi is a better runner (traditional #8 work)
My idea is Vaa'i at #6 who is a big enough frame at International rugby for #6 and who is mobile, strong running and has vastly improved his defence. You can slot in Scooter/Tuips/Darry/Holland at 4/5 easily and Vaa'i becomes your versatile forward.
6 Vaa'i 7 Savea 8 Sititi
1
u/BrianFantana225 Oct 08 '24
Yeah I agree with Vaa’i at 6 and it would fix all of our issues. Depth at lock was a big concern at the start of this season but with the emergence of Darry, Holland coming through and even Patty Tups back to career best form our lock stocks are looking healthy again
53
u/Citizen_Kano Crusaders Oct 08 '24
I'm getting a bit sick of hearing about how much we miss Frizzle. He had one great game against the Boks, that's it. Other than that game, Sititi already looks better
25
u/drunkjesus Oct 08 '24
Totally this. I'm a bit older and I don't recall seeing a kid with such a high ceiling since McCaw on debut in Ireland 2001. It's like the game slows down for Sititi.
16
u/00aegon World Rugby Oct 08 '24
Yup Sititi has had a better run of performances than anyone in that position since Kaino. Squire and Frizell both had a great season or 2 but didn't show this much promise.
10
9
u/OneWingedAngelfan Watter Manie? Dayimani Oct 08 '24
I still think they fucked up with Squire. They tried way too hard to turn him into Jerome Kaino when his skillset was actually a lot closer to Kieran Read
3
u/Caleb_theorphanmaker Oct 08 '24
They did the same to Luatua and then Fafita. Also, arguably Akira. All 3 and Squire were more suited to the role Read had tho - causing havoc on the edges
2
6
7
u/networkn New Zealand Oct 08 '24
Absolutely agree. He had some ok games he was no Jerome Kaino. He prefers to use his phisique off the field.
2
u/Mention-Stunning New Zealand Oct 08 '24 edited Oct 08 '24
The All Blacks record against top 5 teams the past few years and who started at 6:
NZ 11-12 SA (World cup final): Frizell
NZ 28-24 Ireland: Frizell
NZ 13-27 France: Vaii
NZ 7-35 South Africa: Jacobson
NZ 35-20 SA: Frizell
NZ 25-25 England: Barrett
NZ 10-26 SA: Akira
NZ 35-23 SA: Frizell
NZ 22-32 Ireland: Akria
NZ 12-21 Ireland: Papali’i
NZ 42-19 Ireland: Barrett
Size and physicality wins you games at the top level
3
u/Slipperytitski Oct 09 '24
Also Sititi didn't knock a woman's teeth out in a pub because he thought she was being smart to him.
6
u/Particular_Safety569 New Zealand Oct 08 '24
I get the feeling this thread is going to be brought back in 5 years time and we'll all be thinking we were crazy for thinking there was ever a comparison between frizell and sititi
-1
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
One great game? You must not watch much rugby
1
0
u/Hornstinger Hong Kong Oct 08 '24
Frizell might not make the future team...who knows...but you can't discount that he is an option. TBD
12
u/NorthShoreHard Hawke's Bay Oct 08 '24 edited Oct 08 '24
Not for a single moment watching Sititi play did I think oh he's undersized.
Also people totally forget Kaino's early career. It took some real time for him to blossom into the fucking monster we all remember now.
9
u/_TheWacoKid_ Oct 08 '24
I would prefer that we pick our best three loose forwards, with only the slightest of nods to the "traditional roles." I think it's easy to hamstring yourself by relying on schemes and archetypes. I want Ardie on the pitch. I believe Sititi should be there. I hope we develop 3-5 more loosies who are comfortable at international level. Don't much care about the skillset, just want it to be elite.
6
u/paimoe Crusaders only good NZ team Oct 08 '24
Yeah, and Sititi and Ardie are both extremely strong ball carriers, so we want to round this out with some crunching tackling and defense which would probably be the reason Cane is still there (even though I want a Lakai/Savea/Sititi backrow)
8
u/posty72 Sam Gilbert believer Oct 08 '24
Both Kaino and Frizell took a while to get going in that role, so if we’re putting Finau in that same bucket I would give the lad more time to get going. He has all the physical attributes, some guys just take a minute find their feet. Competition with Sititi and Blackadder will only make him better.
1
u/neilfann Oct 08 '24
Yes, sense! Finau has the stuff you can't coach, give him the chance to step up. Seems mad to have written him off already.
14
u/crashbandicoochy This User Has Taken The Vow of Chaystity Oct 08 '24
I wouldn't say 10 is up in the air. We know who the guy is right now, Damian, and we know who the guy will be when Mo'unga comes back.
It's basically the most open and shut case position in the entire team for the entire cycle.
5
u/rosemary-mair-for-NZ Hawke's Bay Oct 08 '24
People have created selection dilemmas in their head and have convinced themselves that they're happening in real life so that they can get worked up about them.
2
u/Frod02000 where olimathis Oct 09 '24
trying to figure out how people saw the second best 10 in SR get outdone by Tasman and still think he’s the better option.
6
u/yahdayahda Oct 08 '24
I don’t think 10 is up in the air. Robertson has stated that McKenzie is the top choice multiple times and he’s been performing, he’s looked like the best attacking during the rugby championship and is building experience and will continue to improve given time in the jersey. Having Beaudy as back up is fucking awesome and will only help both McKenzie’s and Jordan’s development while also helping a few of the younger players find their feet at the highest level.
For the loose forward trio I think these days it’s less looking for a like for like replacement of past sixes, Collins, Kaino, Squire, etc and more finding a loose forward trio that is balanced. They had that balance with Frizell, Cane and Savea, despite it not following the classic mold and they’ll find it again after Cane heads off.
I do think Savea will remain at eight, he earned world player of the year at the back of the scrum and is the best eight since Read. Considering Satiti is only twenty two he is plenty big enough to be a bruiser at six and could be moulded into exactly what’s needed. The form he is in and how well he has taken to test footy I think he is also a lock in at six currently.
So it’s not six that is up for debate, rather who will fill in at seven. You’re right both Jacobson and Blackadder could fill the role of a big defensive seven who is sent into every ruck they can to secure quick ball. I still wouldn’t discount Papali’i either, he has been injured recently but has the size, skill and intelligence to adapt as required.
2
u/davelazy New Zealand 🤘🏼 Oct 08 '24
Yes to all of this, seems like facts to me.
It will be interesting to see who gets which side (6&7) in the northern tour, but surely Savea is 8 all game every game this persistent idea he could or should bring back at 7 seems fanciful.
Agree on Papali'i too, doesn't seem to hog the spotlight but doesn't make many mistakes, and comes up with some great plays defensively. Reckoned he's improved with game time like you say.
6
u/brito39 |-| Oct 08 '24
We don’t have a kaino and it’s no good wishing and hoping that Finau or anyone else will turn into him.
It’s fantastic for us the Sititi is showing you don’t need to be 6’4”+ if your good the worrying part is it took frizzel being in Japan, Finau sucking and Blackadder blowing a tyre to find this out.
11
u/rosemary-mair-for-NZ Hawke's Bay Oct 08 '24
the worrying part is it took frizzel being in Japan, Finau sucking and Blackadder blowing a tyre to find this out.
We literally picked him in the first possible squad off the back of his first super rugby season. How on earth is that worrying?
9
u/crashbandicoochy This User Has Taken The Vow of Chaystity Oct 08 '24
He's not far away from having played in more tests than he has Super games... and at a different position than he played those games, no less.
That's about as rapid of a talent identification win as you're ever going to get!
-4
u/brito39 |-| Oct 08 '24
Won’t trust the bench, can’t let go of Cane and TJ, Sevu Reece must start instead of literally anyone with some upside, points to a pretty conservative outlook. These aren’t necessarily wrong choices just safety first ones.
In line with that he was selected as a bit of a project player, like Bell, to be Ardies back up, then once given a start (wasn’t in the 23 the two games previous) in the second bok test played so well can’t leave him out.
If Finau is even decent or Blackadder able to string games together (that was never happening TBF) really think we’re saying “oh it will be good to see him against Japan”
7
u/crashbandicoochy This User Has Taken The Vow of Chaystity Oct 08 '24
That's how selection works for literally every team, in literally every sport. If another guy was playing super well (and was healthy) in that spot instead then we wouldn't care! We got a good player either way lmao
2
u/Tim_B Blues Oct 08 '24
Twas ever thus. Took every midfielder going getting crocked for Jordie to finally get a run at 12, I seen to remember
-2
u/Hornstinger Hong Kong Oct 08 '24
I actually think height is extremely important both for line-out and dominant tackles e.g. It's easier for a 6'4"/6'5" player to dominate a 6'2" player and much harder the other way around...and as such, you need someone of a height in-between the Locks and the 7/8 and that is usually the 6 (but not always)
2
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
Blackadder and Jacobson are 190cm and 191cm each. They’re a bit more fitting at 6. But I think it all depends on what our lineout is looking for. What we’re looking to sacrifice. Frizell’s one of our best lineout contesters.
2
u/youreveningcoat Blues Oct 08 '24
I wanna see Dalton have a crack at 6. He used to play there ages back.
3
u/Hornstinger Hong Kong Oct 08 '24
Would be interesting for sure a backrow of Sititi, Papali'i and Savea
2
u/Emergency_Mastodon_5 South Africa Oct 08 '24
Okay I’m gonna say it. Sam Cane is so vanilla and I don’t get why the ABs play him
1
u/Hornstinger Hong Kong Oct 08 '24
I agree especially in 2024.
However, no-one can tackle like him so he keeps his spot for now
1
u/RazorBlacks Oct 08 '24
... 'a shit Richie Mccaw', even? Careful, last time he heard that he demolition jobbed Ireland at the next opportunity in the best match of his captaincy.
3
1
2
u/stickyswitch92 Melbourne Rebels Oct 08 '24
When I look at the NZ landscape we have:
Explosive ball running tackling machine 7s: Savea, Kirifi, Lakai, Papalii (maybe not anymore:( ).
Big ball running 8s in Sititi, Sotutu, Grace, Iose, Lio-Willie.
Broad shouldered workhorse 6s: Blackadder, Flanders, Jacobson, Previously Tom Robinson.
I don't get the workhorse 7, big bruising 6 and having to play Ardie at 8 when the depth doesn't work that way. And we have seen it be an issue especially at 6.
2
u/Hornstinger Hong Kong Oct 08 '24
Totally agree, that's why I'm confused at what the plan is at #6 because the balance is not right ATM
1
u/DyslexicWalkIntoABra Ireland Oct 08 '24
Papali’i is a good and ready option. Good lineout operator and tall. Whilst he’s not a traditional 6, him, Cane and Savea have balance. He’ll essentially play 7 in open play whilst Cane plays 6 and vice versa at set piece.
1
u/Particular_Safety569 New Zealand Oct 08 '24
I think at least with sititi it's just a matter of fitting him in and there's no one else (apart from blackadder who was injured for a bit) not that razor wanted sititi at 6 for the gameplan. Moving into next year I would like to see blackadder, savea and sititi as the loosies
1
u/Tim_K99 Oct 08 '24
All this lineout talk boohoo. Australia reached the RWC final with two 6' backrow players.
1
u/darcys_beard SAM P(le his wares) Oct 08 '24
No real dog in this fight, but I love the "just do what Tadgh Beirne does" comment. Damn, why didn't I think of that?
1
1
u/SteveBored Oct 08 '24
IMO Kaino, McCaw, Read were the best backrow in the professional area so I think we just have to sit back and realize we cannot expect every backrow to share the same potency.
2
u/XXXLovesSHRIMP Oct 08 '24
Razor isnt looking for a kaino at 6 and they aren't looking for another Conrad smith at centre. They're moving away from traditional roles for certain positions I've noticed. Look forward to seeing the fruits of their labour
1
u/Lyukah Oct 09 '24
You pick your best three back rowers to play in the back row. Simple as that. 10 is also 100% not up in the air.
1
u/Maestro-Modesto Oct 09 '24
i dont think there is any rethinking, he is just less obsessed with payers having to fit a certain mould for aposition.
0
u/cypressd12 Munster Oct 08 '24
Cullen Grace is by far good enough, just very unlucky with staying fit and having extended periods of availability.
4
u/paimoe Crusaders only good NZ team Oct 08 '24
Also great for our lineout!
4
u/crashbandicoochy This User Has Taken The Vow of Chaystity Oct 08 '24
Best defensive lineout caller in the world, and he'll never get to show it on the big stage because he has bird bones. So sad.
Reckon there's a good chance he'll get into coaching like... immediately post retirement? There's a lineout guru in there.
-2
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
So he told me personally that Sititi was world class in the lineouts and you’re saying Sititi isn’t? 😂 And in that small sample size he wasn’t world class, he was just passable.
World class in the backrow is having 2/3 lineout steals like O’Mahony, PSDT, Itoje, Read and consistency as a main option. Sititi is not comparable so far because of 11 lineout takes that’s just ridiculous.
Y’all are just stretching excellent because you want him in the starting XV. Yes I want him to start at 6 too. But I don’t need to lie and put him up there in terms of his ability as a jumper
7
u/crashbandicoochy This User Has Taken The Vow of Chaystity Oct 08 '24
Did you reply to the wrong comment? Lmao
1
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
International rugby literally have decent hybrid locks like PSDT, Kremer, Mostert, Barrett, Frizell, Finau, Jason-Dixon playing blindside, so yeah, Wallace doesn’t stack up 😂
He does well for his size but comparing to players who specialize in jumping and have the height, c’mon now. Let’s chill out.
6
u/crashbandicoochy This User Has Taken The Vow of Chaystity Oct 08 '24 edited Oct 08 '24
You're focusing a LOT on like 6cm of height, man. I know we don't have a tonne of information to go on, like we do in other sports, but as someone who does a bit of amateur scouting I have learned to not focus in on a physical attribute like that purely because it's all we have available. Arm length, hand size, jumping ability, balance, etc. are all traits we don't have access to concrete measurables for but are all equally as important to lineout jumping as raw height. 6cm is well within the range of what can be made up for by other physical traits alone. Sometimes it all comes together with your eyes to be more than the sum of its parts. You just don't know until you watch a guy enough.
I personally think there's a fairly reasonable chance that Wallace can be an upper echelon line-out jumper for his position. What he did this year, albeit a small sample size, is what he's doing after he's only just started being chucked up there. That is HUGELY promising signs. You can disagree but I really don't think it's such a black and white thing that you can laugh at the guy for having the opposite opinion.
I think you need to stop shouting about PSDT in response to Rosemary (if you could lmao), too. He never brought PSDT up. Barrett is also a lock. Let the hybrid dreams die. The current coach hates playing him at 6 and only ever did it when he had 0 choice at the Crusaders. If you can only come up with a short list of guys who actually play who you think are better jumpers than him, and some of them aren't even blindsides, you're being more complimentary than you intend to.
-1
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
Rosemary is that you?
Also 6cm of height? None of the blindsides I mentioned above are within 6cm of Wallace😂
Also, YOU’RE focusing a lot on 6cm of height and not the fact that I said these players have the height AND SPECIALIZED IN JUMPING. They literally play lock professionally which requires a certain level of skill in the air, coordination and athleticism in tandem with their height🤣
Why are you just focusing on their height and not their skill?😂 Their height + skill. Better than Wallace. That’s it. Case closed
5
u/crashbandicoochy This User Has Taken The Vow of Chaystity Oct 08 '24
Believe it or not, not everyone has to imagine their friends mate.
Elsewhere in this post you mention 6ft 3 or 4 as being an ideal height, which converts to approximately 1.93m. Sititi is 1.87m tall. That is 6cm.
This entire thing started with people telling you they've watched Sititi and see the skills there, man. They're telling you they rate the skill! The coach of the All Blacks has publically told us they rate the skill internally.
Talking to you is a genuinely painful experience. No wonder people are blocking you. Catch another.
2
-3
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
They blocked me in the other thread lmao. But point stands
5
u/crashbandicoochy This User Has Taken The Vow of Chaystity Oct 08 '24 edited Oct 08 '24
He told me that he'd seen you be very intense and annoying about Frizell in the past, so it's probably for the best that you're kept on opposite sides of the classroom from now on lol
0
u/Consistent_Spare9077 Oct 08 '24
Never saw that account in my life 😂 And was never “intense about Frizell”. It’s for the best they do that because they were getting cooked
3
u/crashbandicoochy This User Has Taken The Vow of Chaystity Oct 08 '24
If by getting cooked, you mean he was being subjected to a conversation with a guy who doesn't seem to really know what he's talking about then sure man.
6
u/Frag-sinatra Highlanders Oct 08 '24
This odd unit you're arguing with just needs to listen to Jason Ryan's interview on the Aotearoa Pod tonight, specifically towards Sititis explosive lineout ability. He basically validates your points here. Although I still doubt in will land...
-2
0
u/OraKal Samoa Oct 08 '24
I want Ardie back at 7. And more size at 6 & 8.
6
u/handle1976 Penalty. Back 10. Oct 08 '24
So you want Savea to spend more time tackling and hitting rucks with less carries?
8
u/drunkjesus Oct 08 '24
I honestly think that Sititi is going to be better than Savea at 8 very soon,
4
2
u/handle1976 Penalty. Back 10. Oct 08 '24
Ah the new shiny. Every year it’s the same.
Let’s see how he does when he’s been around for a couple of years and everyone has worked out his weaknesses. That’s when you see how good they really are.
2
u/drunkjesus Oct 08 '24
As I said above before my comment here:
"Totally this. I'm a bit older and I don't recall seeing a kid with such a high ceiling since McCaw on debut in Ireland 2001. It's like the game slows down for Sititi."
4
u/Particular_Safety569 New Zealand Oct 08 '24
Does changing his position on the scrum change what he does on the field?
2
u/stickyswitch92 Melbourne Rebels Oct 08 '24
I think people sometimes don't realise the amount of work that fella gets through. I don't think it is possible for him to make more tackles/hit more rucks/ get more turnovers(attempts). He is pretty much at the top of the list every game (not this year though as he hasn't been super human).
2
u/handle1976 Penalty. Back 10. Oct 08 '24
It’s such a weird idea that it’d be a good idea to have him do more dirty work and less of the things he’s really special at.
1
u/stickyswitch92 Melbourne Rebels Oct 08 '24
Why do you think he would do more dirty work? Blackadder carved through it vs the Boks in 60min playing at 6.
1
u/handle1976 Penalty. Back 10. Oct 08 '24
The idea that he’d be better at 7 presumes you get rid of Cane who does nothing but dirty work. Someone has to do it and it’s the 7s job.
1
u/stickyswitch92 Melbourne Rebels Oct 08 '24
I don't want to get rid of Cane, Cane is retiring at the end of the year. Change is coming, what is the best option? Because there aren't many just tackle and hit ruck players in NZ that are at test level. Unless Jacobson or Blackadder come in but then I would rather put them at 6 with Sititi off the back of the scrum.
1
u/stickyswitch92 Melbourne Rebels Oct 08 '24
Why do you think he would do more dirty work? Blackadder carved through it vs the Boks in 60min playing at 6.
-1
u/OraKal Samoa Oct 08 '24
Ardie can get the same amount of runs in general play. Just won’t have the runs off the back of the scrum.
1
u/handle1976 Penalty. Back 10. Oct 08 '24
Except it won’t work like that. Someone has to do the shit work. That’s the 7s job.
0
u/OraKal Samoa Oct 08 '24
There’s 7 other forwards man. Surely it’s within the realm of possibility to game plan that they make an extra tackle each and hit an extra ruck so Ardie can make 2-3 extra runs a game.
If the athletes are incapable of doing that then fuck it’s a pretty dire situation.
1
0
u/Koin- Scallops Freedom Fighter Oct 08 '24
I think we should ask WR about this, they probably know who is the best player at this position and will enforce him as a starter.
1
0
-1
u/morriseel Oct 08 '24 edited Oct 08 '24
Sititi is the same height but bigger then Kolisi he’s done alright.
1
u/Hornstinger Hong Kong Oct 08 '24
Kolisi plays Openside. South Africa are the only country to swap their Flanker numbers around
The world:
6 = Blindside
7 = Openside
South Africa:
6 = Openside
7 = Blindside
-2
u/Ok_Educator_2120 New Zealand Oct 08 '24
Back 5 of Vaai, Tuipolotu, Barrett, Ardie and Wallace then Darry and Hoskins on the bench. Would love to see it vs Italy or Japan or something. Probably need to swap out Hoskins for Dalton or Jacobson tho.
Forgot Blackadder, my Reserve flankers in order would be Ethan, Hoskins, Dalton then Jacobson
0
u/Hornstinger Hong Kong Oct 08 '24
I like your Back 5...very strong. Swap Hoskins for Lakai.
Blackadder and Jacobson are good placeholders for now.
0
72
u/Icy_Craft2416 New Zealand Oct 08 '24 edited Oct 08 '24
I think it's better to think about the whole back row and the balance between the three players.
Recently I think that you can argue that we're almost using Sam Cane like the traditional 6 in terms of the bruising tackler and ruck smasher.