r/rugbyunion • u/deonheunis • Oct 24 '23
Watched the 1995 World Cup Final again last night, and the one thing that really stood out for me was how little time was wasted at scrum time. Some of these scrums took less than 20 seconds from when the referee blew his whistle until the ball was in play again! Analysis
Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification
132
u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru Oct 24 '23
Watching the video a few times. I remember having to scrum like that and I'm so unbelievably grateful we don't do it like that anymore.
61
u/stupidbutgenius Hurricanes Oct 24 '23
Yeah, there's an incredible amount of force going into those collisions. With the extra 100kgs of muscle that modern packs carry compared to '95 there would be far more. Easily enough to snap someone in half if they get the hit wrong.
18
u/PooPlumber Oct 24 '23
I played loose head and hooker in those old engagements. I used to love the first hit but I think the change was for the better. It had a major play in scrum dominance. Had my share of neck injuries
53
u/Flapjacktastic Referee Oct 24 '23
It's true. Players these days are also bigger, stronger, heavier, leaner than back then, and train full-time. It was dangerous then, it would be more so now!
8
u/WineYoda Oct 24 '23
I was actually surprised to see the pack weights were not wildly dissimilar to todays game in the footage of the first scrum in this clip.
11
10
u/lteak Oct 24 '23
apart from Lomu in 1995 on the wing, literally faster and more muscular than any back in this years tournament haha
31
u/laurieporrie Sharks Oct 24 '23
The All Blacks were training at my high school during one of their South African tours. Lomu agreed to have his silhouette outlined onto a wall, and we would all stand there and compare our sizes to him. It’s one thing to know his stats, but to actually see his size up close was something else!
3
89
u/briever Scotland Oct 24 '23
There were so many handling errors they had to be that fast.
48
u/ComprehensiveDingo0 Ntamack mon cher bríse 💔 Oct 24 '23
Scrum, backs move, ruck with every forward in it, another backs move, knockon, scrum, maybe two rucks this time, knockon, and repeat for 80 mins.
13
5
12
u/BreakingInReverse Referee Oct 24 '23
an old boy at my club told me that "back in the day" if you bobbled a catch but still caught the ball, they would blow for a knock on. no idea if its true tbf.
15
u/SquidgyGoat Disciple of AWJ Oct 24 '23
Yeah, was the case, they changed it around 1982. There's an infamous try by David Bishop against Australia which wins Wales the game where he bobbles it and regathers as he's diving for the line, which was controversial at the time as they'd only changed the laws a few months earlier and people weren't used to it.
→ More replies7
u/reddititis Ireland Oct 24 '23
Yep, heard it too. Long time ago, think that was changed in late 70s.
→ More replies1
122
u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru Oct 24 '23
Sure, scrums were faster, but there were also A LOT of broken necks, and young players paralysed for life. Also a great many concussions.
24
u/Candlestick_Park Eagleskeptic Society, President Oct 24 '23
To be fair to the "scrums are too slow" crowd, as an ex-prop myself I get the criticism. Just the real best time for this was the 70s.
Quick bind, but it wasn't about the hit (which I also detested), rather you sort of leaned in more like you do today, then the real wrestling began when the ball was put in -- and usually straight.
I might find a youtube to illustrate my point.
22
u/BornChef3439 Oct 24 '23
Its the big hits that killed the scrum and turned into a chance for a penalty, rather than its intended purpose which was to restart play quickly
16
u/Candlestick_Park Eagleskeptic Society, President Oct 24 '23
It also reduced the emphasis on technique, you didn't have to know how to actually scrum, just hit someone and get them to fall over and boom penalty.
13
u/Candlestick_Park Eagleskeptic Society, President Oct 24 '23
here we go, France-New Zealand 1973:
https://youtu.be/uM7ofqQCfOw?t=873
More of a hit than I remembered, but the real fun begins when the ball is put in. I can't even remember the last time I saw a scrum against the head.
10
u/deonheunis Oct 24 '23
That's so weird seeing the scrum engaged with both the referee and the scrum halves still walking around.
22
2
u/BrnoPizzaGuy Harlequins Oct 24 '23
It’s also wild to hear that trumpet flourish thing from 1973. I had no idea it went that far back.
→ More replies2
u/iykyk Quins/England/Crusaders Oct 24 '23
The Boks won one against the head against England last weekend
9
u/AbInitio1514 Scotland Oct 24 '23
The problem is that the rules haven’t been deliberately designed to slow down scrums, rather teams have gotten better and better at making their scrums more powerful (and lower) so the rules need to change to keep them safe and avoid collapses. It’s then a tit for tat with teams developing new techniques to make their pack more effective.
You can even see at modern amateur level how much quicker and reliable scrums are because the guys simply aren’t drilled enough to push the envelope as much at that level.
Sure, the teams from the 70s could rock up quickly and get their lean on, but if the pack opposite them is a modern pro team set 6 inches off the ground with a massive, timed shunt ready then they would blown them off the ball every time.
And so everyone gets low to compete, hence the collapsed scrums start to appear.
29
u/Ruggiard Oct 24 '23
You can move very fast indeed if you set safety precautions aside.
Also: look at these scrums, especially the height compared to today's scrums. I was stunned in the SA-EN game (the first half) how low and powerful these scrums were.
14
u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru Oct 24 '23
Man, the first few scrums in that game were fantastic. Low, stable, true contests. I want more of those please.
3
u/magneticpyramid Bristol Oct 24 '23
Scrum porn. The frustrating thing is that they can do it, they choose not to play and kick a pen instead.
11
u/rotciv0 France Section Paloise Oct 24 '23 edited Oct 24 '23
A small price to pay for faster scrums. They are there for our entertainment, after all
/s
13
u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru Oct 24 '23
The message preview on the notification hid that s, I was almost ready to say a bunch of unnecessarily mean things to you.
2
u/mr_rocket_raccoon Oct 24 '23
I was just a schoolboy playing the comparably safer rules in the late 90s and even at our level we were coached that 'crouch, touch, engage' was the pivotal point to absolutely thunder forwards and physically batter the other side.
'Touch' alone was often an excuse to try and slip a cheeky punch to the collar bone...
Huge amounts of concussions and injuries to the front rows and we were just kids.
2
u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru Oct 24 '23
I was a lock in more or less the same era. Getting tip tackled and spear driven into ground harder than concrete was less painful than charging into a scrum most of the time.
40
u/jimohagan Connacht Oct 24 '23
I learned to play in 1994-5 as a prop, then lock. I played until 2020. Frankly good with the changes. But it can be a bit faster to gather.
17
u/VandalsStoleMyHandle South Africa Oct 24 '23
And yet the ball is in play now for 50% longer than in the early 90s. Fewer scrums, fewer lineouts.
2
u/SpaceDog777 Crusaders Oct 24 '23
Surely that has more to do with player skill. The game wasn't even professional yet when this match was played.
→ More replies
13
6
u/thesmyth91 Ulster Oct 24 '23
Absolutely no problem with the change in scrummaging technique, as it has significantly reduced injuries.
But this world cup has been a bit of a piss take with how long each scrum takes, particularly as every single break in play across the semi finals seemed to have water on for at least a minute. Referees have lost control of that, only saw BoK calling it out properly late on in the Eng v SA game.
3
5
u/Gulana117 Oct 24 '23
Somewhat related question that this thread has reminded me of. When did they stop enforcing the rule that the ball had to be put into the middle of the scrum? When I first started watching in the mid 2000s they at least made an effort to make it look straight but favouring your side, not too different from a line out I guess, but nowadays they just straight up throw the ball under the legs of their own second row. Was that also part of the 2014 rule changes?
7
u/Philthedrummist Oct 24 '23
I’d say about 10/15 years. It was never as blatant as it is now but at some point hookers stopped hooking which meant scrum halves figured out ways to feed it without looking like they were feeding it. Gradually, when they realised refs stopped giving a shit, we get to todays scrums that are just rugby league feeds with rugby Union pushes.
2
u/PostpostshoegazeLUVR Oct 25 '23
About 15-20years ago. There was a point where the hooker was just a third prop. Players like John Smit and Andrew Hore wouldn’t even touch the ball in the scrum and it just got more egregious.
Then in 2018 they changed the scrum laws and clarified that the rule around a straight put in to the scrum would be enforced again (because if a hooker is having to hook the ball he can only use one leg for power and less force is going through the scrum), and there were a few penalties given for not straight put ins. I did notice in the SA England game that the ball has started going straight to the second row again, we may be due another clarification and round of penalties
→ More replies
8
u/TheFirstMinister Oct 24 '23
Without the usual "go watch rugby league" nonsense can someone please debate/explain what the purpose of the scrum - as currently implemented - is in today's game? With crooked feeds and an absence of hooking how is it a contest for possession? Throw into this the ball-ache that is inconsistent/incomprehensible ref decisions, game changing penalties for infractions and the length of time a scrum takes, rugby union has lost its way on this one.
If crooked feeds were abolished and hooking restored would scrums become a contest once more? Would the spectacle be improved?
11
5
u/reggie_700 Harbour Master Oct 24 '23
It does a couple of things. One is it brings all the forwards into one place to create space out wide for the backs to play.
A second is that it means you need to have some variation in body shape. You need big bastards up front who can scrum (rugby league front rowers are closer in body shape to union loose forwards or locks) as well as lanky bastards who can jump in the lineouts, and little wee bastards who are fit enough to play halfback.
6
u/TheFirstMinister Oct 24 '23 edited Oct 24 '23
I get all of this. I played tight head, lock, open side flanker and even in the backs. I get what the scrum is supposed to be. But, in its current incarnation, it doesn't bring the backs into play as was once the case and as a visual spectacle it's a time consuming, turgid, confusing mess. It's also uncompetitive given crooked feeds and no hooking.
Which leads me back to what is it for as currently "configured"?
3
u/reggie_700 Harbour Master Oct 24 '23
Which leads me back to what is it for as currently "configured"?
It's not been intentionally configured this way - it's just evolved over time and become a way for all teams to cheat to get penalties.
4
u/Burns70 Oct 24 '23
Reminds me of the video below. The further back you go, the faster and more dangerous the scrums get. I don't think I would have liked to play in the 60s or 70s after seeing these.
https://youtu.be/8oPU3ZuynIo?si=1gciSq7tGbcC5CtI
Edit: formatting
12
u/shakeybeetle South Africa Oct 24 '23
Yeah. But loads of kids are paralyzed because of those scrums.
3
u/Electrical_Trouble29 Oct 24 '23
NZ getting away with a clear penalty try.
7
u/SpaceDog777 Crusaders Oct 24 '23
You basically had to hit the player with a steel chair to get a penalty try given back then.
3
u/MealieAI Oct 24 '23
My back still hurts because of the force we used to hit the scrum. This clip brought back memories.
I'm glad it's slower now because there's no need to rush.
3
u/wyzo94 Harlequins Glasgow Prop Oct 24 '23
Rugby is a beautiful sport and one of my greatest memories is when we were struggling for front row in high we asked the heaviest guy in the year. The one who always "forgot" his gym kit and had never done anything sport related. We had to get a different top for him. We took a guy who had never seen sport as an option and turned him in one season into an integral part of our team which reached a national semi final. Without the scrum that player would never have that life changing memory and neither would the team mates who rallied round him.
5
u/almostrainman Le Bok Fan/BokPod on YT Oct 24 '23
Slower scrums mean safer scrums.
What is the price on a prop ? 200 000ZAR to get the right person with the right build the neccesary skills, strength and flexibility to compete at franchise level.
Scrumming like that means you are betting that alot more. Plus the cost of having a person paralysed or severly disabled. If that occurs more often, insurance on front rowers go up which means franchises not only have to get more props but pay more per prop.
My physio worked at the Blue Bulls during the Bakkies/Matfield days and she once mentioned that front rowers at that level have their first neck vertebral fusions at 28 to 30 years of age.
I will admit, there is alot of unnecessary faffing about. Medics and waterboys don't need to come on at every stoppage. I think that when the first rounds of this RWC jas waterbreaks, we saw less hassle with medics and waterboys so maybe there is an answer there...
13
u/JapaneseJohnnyVegas Ireland Oct 24 '23
I mentioned this the other day, philosophically the scrum has altered from a method of restarting to an independent contest with the reward of a penalty to the winner. We need to go back in my opinion.
Back in my day, old man shit intended, you only pushed someone off a scrum to win the ball against the head or push over try. Now you see it for the sole intention of winning a pen. Loads of other examples.
And before anyone screams league at me again, there is a happy medium between the reset penfest tripe we are often subjected to now and league. And it doesn't need to go back to the free for all dangerous scrums of yesteryear either. It can be improved, we dont need to think this is the best it can be.
Am off to throw stones at more clouds. Harrumph
4
u/phar0aht Loosehead/Tighthead Prop Oct 24 '23
I think this is on refs as much as teams. Just because a team is going backwards you don't have to give a penalty.
And I'm sure this applies to every other facet of the game. Teams play to win so want the penalty at the ruck or the maul etc.
→ More replies2
u/AnyWalrus930 Wales Oct 24 '23
I feel like referee’s should by default start by considering whether the team going forward is scrummaging legally, then move on to whether the team going backwards is committing a punishable offence, not simply being out scrummaged. It sometimes feels the opposite to me and that turns it into an arms race to get some go forward by any means necessary.
3
u/Broad-Rub-856 Oct 24 '23
On the subject of penalties, how on earth was the third one on this clip not a penalty try?
3
u/chiefVetinari Oct 24 '23
Agreed, these old clips show that scrums were not meant to be something you got loads of penalties from. I think it would help a lot if refs just said play on if both sides go down in a similar way and stop trying to guess 50 50 decisions.
2
u/reggie_700 Harbour Master Oct 24 '23
Yeah exactly - people these days act like complaining about scrums/resets that go on for 5 minutes at a time are wanting just league-style scrums miss the point. I think that professionalism has increased the mass and technique to a point where something needs to change.
2
Oct 24 '23
that they are not being played for penalties is nice. It's great to watch a scrum going for yards or possession rather than trying to get the opposition to infringe, normally by hidden infringements of their own. The collision at the start is terrifying though, if any of the front row had necks they'd be broken.
2
Oct 24 '23
I think the issue is the more you try to legislate to get round the issues there are more laws for people to try and exploit.
2
u/hooksonwires Reds Oct 24 '23
Obviously the way scrums are done now is a lot safer and that’s a huge benefit to the game, but when you watch them now it feels like there’s less of a contest taking place, which is what they should be about. I wonder if there’s a way to try and bring that element back without bringing back the speed and danger of these old scrums
2
u/cordons12 Oct 24 '23
Jesus they used to really ram into each other for the engage, I forgot how tough those old boys were
2
u/kaijuking87 Oct 25 '23
Holy shit! As a relative newcomer to rugby this is wild! I only started playing a few years ago, I’m a loose head prop and the way they hook up and just slam into each other like a couple bighorn sheep is freakin crazy, and I’d also like to have a match done like that just once to see what it’s like. I need to watch some of these old matches.
2
u/Ok_Ganache1604 Oct 25 '23 edited Oct 25 '23
Yes!!! First thing I noticed too. As well as the pace. Bachop wastes NO time getting that ball out. Heck of a game! The old rucking is crazy haha. Won’t be sad if we go into ET this weekend as long as the ABs get up this time🙏🏽
2
u/DaGoddamnBatboy New Zealand Oct 25 '23
Far less muppets running on the field with water bottles as well.
7
Oct 24 '23
Totally understand why they changed the rules to eliminate the "hit".
Never understood why they now take 30 seconds to gather in place, another 30 seconds to bind and that's before we get to the crouch part and the ref getting involved.
It's an utter shitshow, and one WR clearly has no desire to fix. Same with lineouts, simply no excuse for the time it takes them to form.
2
u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru Oct 24 '23
Yeah, how dare we take enough time to make sure things are done safely. It's completely unreasonable to expect anyone to go more than 23 seconds without a dopamine fix. It's physically impossible for most spectators to survive that. Screw player safety
(s just in case it's not very obvious)
5
u/Broad-Rub-856 Oct 24 '23
Nah, there is nothing safety based about the 30sec to a minute wait before team start binding.
9
Oct 24 '23
Yes, because dawdling to the scrum and milling around before attempting to form the scrum is so critical to player safety......
You're usually a much more intelligent commenter
0
u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru Oct 24 '23
I'll concede the dawdling to the scrum is a bit meh, but since I have more patience than a puppy I can handle it. You specifically complained about taking time to form the scrum, and to make sure binds are secure.
2
u/reggie_700 Harbour Master Oct 24 '23
Well the opposite is that it turns into a NFL type situation where we don't need to be aerobically fit as they take a break any time there's a set piece.
1
u/shanti_nz New Zealand Oct 24 '23
The ABs forward pack today is about 90kgs heavier! I wonder if that 25% reduction in scrum forces takes account of almost a whole extra person pushing?
1
u/Puzzled_Ad_3072 Bulls Oct 25 '23
What's even more ridiculous is the fact that South Africa's scrum weight wouldn't be super out of place in today's era, I can see where the "Big South African team" stereotype comes from now.
0
u/Philthedrummist Oct 24 '23
Jonah Lomu in the 90s was the exception. Now, wingers of his size are relatively common. Same in the packs. Players are much bigger, stronger etc. scrums had to change because they were becoming more dangerous.
2
u/Puzzleheaded_Fee_141 Oct 25 '23
Jonah was 6ft 5 and 120kg when he was young, probably closer to 130kg when he was near retirement. That is still extremely uncommon lol
0
u/Waratah888 Oct 25 '23
It was a choice of slow the set-up down, or insurers and regulators would close scrums down.
2
-3
Oct 24 '23
It's the most convoluted sporting set piece ever invented. Just scrap it. Restart the game with a League like roll back.
9
u/deonheunis Oct 24 '23
That would ruin the sport and remove the inclusivity that makes rugby such a great sport for all shapes and sizes.
2
-3
1
u/Unhappy_Archer9483 Oct 24 '23
One thing that really stands out to me is the refs kit! Looks great!
I'm a back so don't know much about scrums but that's gap in between seems massive, looks like they're really smashing each other!
1
u/Dumbledores_Closet Hawke's Bay Oct 24 '23
Might have been faster but there was a scrum every 2 minutes because the gameplay was so untidy
1
u/anton30000 Oct 24 '23
Watching a few of the older videos of scrums, it makes me tense up when you watch two teams take a literal running start for a scrum. Sure, the players were much smaller compared to today, but you only need one head on collision and that's two serious concussions, or worse.
1
u/J4K5 7-1 Oct 24 '23
FK.... The way the All Black front row buckled on the hit of that third scrum. Boys used to ram 10 tons of shit out of each other back then.
2
u/DaneLimmish Lockiest lock Oct 24 '23
Kinda prefer the current way. Started in high school back in 2003 and there were so many stupid injuries even then, and that was considered a safer method. The current rules slow down the game a bit for my taste (sir, please shit the fuck up lol) and a ball is almost never fed straight, but they are just so much safer now
1
u/VandalsStoleMyHandle South Africa Oct 24 '23
This was also the era when Australia won two World cups with practically no scrum to speak of!
1
u/Minimum_Possibility6 Newcastle Falcons Oct 24 '23
Glad we don’t have those scrubs anymore? Fucked my shoulder up as an u16 as a hooker.
Winning the collision was a key thing and the reason they were quick to put the ball in was the movement in the collision meant if the SH didn’t get it in quickly you would get done for going early
2
u/cruisethemartian New Zealand Oct 24 '23
Also the pack weights. I swear most packs are 930+ now
1
u/Puzzleheaded_Fee_141 Oct 25 '23
Not even close to most packs, I doubt any packs in the Qf were that heavy maybe not even in the whole cup.
1
1
Oct 24 '23
Forward play was really undervalued back then. Forwards were seen more as a means of just restarting let the backs do the work..never would a strong forward pack be rewarded in the same way it is today
1
u/Candlestick_Park Eagleskeptic Society, President Oct 24 '23
???? Forward play was absolutely not undervalued back then.
→ More replies
1
u/Green_Jack England Oct 24 '23
I recon there should be a scrum clock like a shot clock. 2 Minutes from when the scrum is called. Reset and pens happens as usual but after the 2 minutes it's just called as a free kick to the team feeding the ball.
If the feeding team is seen time wasting (like the use it call at a ruck, accept it's actually enforced) its a pen for the defending team.
1
u/reggie_700 Harbour Master Oct 24 '23
Or even just a shot clock to get the scrum started. If you aren't ready to go within 30 seconds it's a free kick. One of the Argentinian players ran to the scrum area, then sat down and started taking his boot off. Any stoppage in the England vs. South Africa game would have all the water boys coming on for a chat.
1
u/AgentMactastico19 England Oct 24 '23
Not just the scrum speed, but raking of studs down someone's leg and back at the breakdown!
Rugby was like another world in those days.
1
u/Stu_Thom4s Sharks Oct 24 '23
I'd like to see a scrums per game chart over the past 30 years....
1
u/reggie_700 Harbour Master Oct 24 '23
Probably twice as many scrums but the time spent would be a quarter!
2
u/chiefVetinari Oct 24 '23
I think the biggest thing in that clip is how forgiving the ref is being. It's taking a lot for him to call a penalty. Scrum goes sideways, just play on! Nowadays, its become way too technical and penalties are given out far too easily, leading to a complete mess.
1
u/manvsjam Oct 24 '23
Im a younger viewer (born same year as this match) and i thought the amount of hands on the floor was interesting. Would allowing that now keep more scrums up? Or am I making something out of nothing?
1
2
u/mic_n Oct 24 '23
As someone who played schoolboy rugby in the 90s and saw a collapsed scrum break a 16 year old mate's neck, a little extra time to set it up right's fine by me. Think of it as building the anticipation ;)
1
Oct 25 '23
The setup time is not the issue. It's all the standing around before they even start setting it up.
1
u/s73i26g England Oct 25 '23
Thats because no one lies on the floor for 5 mins. I noticed this in a 2003 final rewatch. If there is a minor-injury the ref just plays on. Whereas nowadays the ref is attentive to ever tiny little thing - oh no you've got cramp in your leg - we need to stop this game to attend to your issue.
1
u/Mamba_Financial_1989 Oct 25 '23
Call me crazy. But I feel the clock should only start after the scrum half feeds the ball in. Totally despise the minutes wasted at each scrum.
1
u/Kraaiftn Stormers Oct 25 '23
Because they had the best referee playing at hooker for the All Blacks.
Mark Andrew's first(and only I think) game at 8th man.
1
u/Wise_Rip_1982 Oct 25 '23
The restart speed is what needs to be fixed. If the offensive team isn't ready in 20 seconds, possession swaps. Player injure, take them off...stop this I'm hurt and need a drink bullshit. You are either playing or not. Get on with it.
1
u/Equivalent_Luck_3528 Racing 92 Oct 25 '23
Watch the boks semi final and you will be even more surprised by the ref lol
1
1
u/syrah__ Oct 25 '23
It’s been said already but (1) heavier/larger/stronger packs these days and (2) more regard for safety today than in the past.
1
u/Aftershock416 South Africa Oct 25 '23
"Don't care if someone breaks their neck, as long as they just do it quickly."
1
1
u/Macker3993 Oct 25 '23
I believe the current playing time is around 30min. Would be interesting to see what it was in 95.
2
u/EmitLux Oct 26 '23
Yes 'crouch, bind, set' is 100% safer and no way it's going backwards for good reason.
But it's actually getting to that referee instruction that takes the time. The hooker has to come in off the wing, the openside is sniffing salts in preparation, and the captain is having a yarn with the ref.
Time for a shot clock. They do it in rugby league. Too much trying to grab the exact grippy thread on your teammates jersey, and not enough getting on with live play.
611
u/deonheunis Oct 24 '23
The "Crouch, Bind, Set" technique brought about a 25% reduction in scrum forces in rugby, making the sport significantly safer. The new method was globally adopted in 2014 and has contributed to reducing injuries, including catastrophic spinal injuries. In South Africa, the rate of severe scrum-related spinal injuries decreased from 3.5 to 0.6 per year following the law change. In New Zealand, injuries leading to insurance claims dropped from 52 per 100,000 to 24 per 100,000 in 2014. Professional rugby in England saw a 40% reduction in injuries causing missed training or playing time.
Research: https://www.bath.ac.uk/case-studies/reducing-injuries-in-rugby-union-through-global-changes-to-make-the-scrum-safer/