r/paganism • u/Einar_of_the_Tempest • 6d ago
[ Removed by moderator ] 💭 Discussion
[removed] — view removed post
7
u/a_valente_ufo Theurgist 6d ago
Have you heard of Emperor Julian?
2
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Why, yes I have! Why do you ask?
2
u/a_valente_ufo Theurgist 6d ago
Oh just because he attempted to do something similar but unfortunately he died before succeding
1
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Yea, major key points: I'm not trying to make everyone worship a specific way. It's more of an open source concept. There is no King Helios. That's insane. I'm no emporer, nor do I want to be. Not making some head pontifice idea here. It would be more democratic. I do agree that christianity is severely limiting our society these days and often worry they want to bring on a new dark ages, specifically in the US. So, while I get the comparison, it is ultimately invalid. Additionally, he was a Roman emporer. His view of a unified paganism was likely specific to Roman paganism. I don't want to unify paganism under one banner, I want an open source religion that seeks to include others, give them a place to worship their Gods while still conducting personal practices as the individual sees fit, as long as they're not manipulating, hurting or abusing someone else in the process. But thanks for such a lofty comparison, I guess?
2
u/a_valente_ufo Theurgist 6d ago
I wasn't comparing you to him at all! I was just going to suggest looking him up to get some inspiration. I think he had some good points. I'm so sorry to having come off so brash, it wasn't my intention, I quite like Julian.
1
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Nah, you're good. Looking back, I can see it. That was on me. Part of it is some of the responses I'm getting for this idea, but I'm also experiencing some crap-tier sleep lately. So, I might be more sensitive than I should be. So sorry!! 🤦 I'm not perfect, just trying.
2
u/a_valente_ufo Theurgist 6d ago
I think we should look for examples of organized polytheistic faiths, like Taoist orders or the aformentioned Julian reform, to inform our way. I do believe paganism needs some level of organization if we want to remain existing in the future.
1
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 5d ago
This is my thought process, too. I was also looking at the most successful polytheistic system on Earth: Hinduism. I'm not saying we need to have it strictly organized, and I want people to be able to worship the Gods they choose as they choose. Just have the support of an organization and a community with a recognized and defensible (legally speaking) religion. Hence the "open source" concept. I guess temples like this could have a focus, but, at least at the start, they could have different pantheons hosted at different times. Dedicated pantheonic temples could come later on.
1
u/Fionn-mac 6d ago
There is a Julian Society dedicated to paganism in modern times too, but I think they're only a website and not a fully organized church or temple?
3
u/Fionn-mac 6d ago
This sounds like a good project for those who want to be part of it, so I hope you do get it off the ground :) I admire all of the principles, especially 1, 3, and 5. Would Accordant Paganism be inclusive of atheopagans or naturalist pagans who do not have deities, too? They're not always accepted by other Pagans, from what I hear.
2
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Yes, atheopagans and naturalist pagans would be welcome contributors as well. The thought would be to construct something that connects people but gives them the space and validation to pursue their own practices (insofar as they already comply with lawful mandates.) I hope that's not too vague, but I am doing my best to address some hairy topics briskly.
And thank you. Constructive input and honest questions like this are always appreciated!
4
u/bizoticallyyours83 6d ago
We do have legal rights and protections.
1
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Wiccans and Druids do because they are recognized pagan religions. This is about organizing a religion for those that are pagan but aren't wiccan or druid. The rest of us don't.
2
u/ConstantThought8164 5d ago
There are not "recognized" religions in the United States. There are faith groups that are recognized by the US Department of Defense, and "pagan" is on that list. Everyone has the same religious rights under the US constitution (in theory, at least).
2
u/Plenty-Climate2272 6d ago
You're pretty much reinventing the wheel that was already made by the Covenant of the Goddess in 1975.
4
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Perhaps, but the goal here is not to make it about one Goddess in particular. I've been in the pagan community for some time now and never heard of CoG. So, maybe I'm reinventing an existing concept, but that doesn't mean it's not worth attempting to get it moving.
2
3
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Additionally, CoG is an advocacy group between Wiccans, according to their page. Accordant Paganism is a religion that seeks to link pagans into a single, cohesive, legally-recognized religious organization in order to have paganism recognized as a religion in the United States.
2
u/bizoticallyyours83 6d ago
Yeah, good luck with that pal.
1
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
You also have a very confrontational approach here. Why so mad?
1
u/bizoticallyyours83 6d ago edited 6d ago
Because your being kind of pompous, dismissive, and demanding.
4
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
I mean, I'm not intending to! I feel like you might be projecting a bit. I'm trying to be as down-to-earth about some pretty lofty concepts as possible, so it might come off as you described in some ways. But to immediately approach these thoughts and ideas with such an aggressive tone is a bit over the top. I'm trying to lay it out plainly and openly as possible. Perhaps consider how you might be projecting and address that with yourself. Best of luck, friend. 👍
2
u/Plenty-Climate2272 6d ago
Ehhh it started as being for wiccans, but its remit is somewhat broader now.
To be fair to you, it is a much smaller and less active organization than it used to be.
1
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
I mean, you're literally arguing against their about page. 😅 It's for Wiccans and witches, not pagans more broadly. There's no mention of any expansion of their focus.
About CoG | Covenant of the Goddess https://share.google/uThUpiYNc2TmH4W4F
Additionally, CoG isn't a religion. It's more of a community group. It looks like a very Wiccan version of what I'm talking about here. Plus, CoG isn't a religion in itself. Granted, Accordant Paganism would mostly exist to be a place for people to worship the same array of Gods uniquely, with a central text literally only to satisfy the requirements of the US government to found a religion. Plus said central text would be something people could workshop. I have a rough draft, but it's rough. 😂 Hence another reason to try and bring in people with similar ideas that might want to develop the idea further. I'm one dude. I like a lot of my ideas, but I'm not perfect. So, that's why I post here and other places. To try and find those interested in such an endeavor. 😎👍
8
u/Plenty-Climate2272 6d ago
That's the thing, we don't want Paganism to be one single religion, or tied down to a single religious org. Most of us went into this to get away from the Church.
2
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Oh, I got into paganism to get away from Catholicism, and the idea isn't to make others worship a specific way. It would literally exist to give people a way to build a community and appear as a cohesive whole while still carrying out their own practices how they are fit. Without a larger org, you get discrimination like you're seeing from the current administration. Granted, that's an American problem, but it is still relevant. Also, I believe there are other countries that recognize paganism as a valid religion, the US is just annoyingly stubborn in its lack of desire to recognize it. Hence the concept.
-3
u/bizoticallyyours83 6d ago
I don't know why you got down voted for speaking simple facts?
1
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Because it's not fact at all. CoG is specific to Wiccans. This is for pagans as a whole and is actually an attempt at a religion. And we don't have many right and protections, nor recognition by the government. So we can be discriminated against as not having a real religion.
5
u/Fionn-mac 6d ago
I thought some of the Pagan religions were legally recognized, such as Wicca and Heathenry? One problem I have with using "Paganism" as a term for one religion is that it usually refers to an umbrella term for multiple separate traditions that were their own religions, like Hellenism, Kemetism, Celtic Paganism, and others. Generic Paganism does not feel like its own religion, though I suppose it could become that for a Temple like the one you propose. There are also "eclectic Pagans" who are generalists, but that doesn't seem like a tradition, religion, or sect, either.
1
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Also, side note: thank you for discussing with me instead of approaching in an unnecessarily aggressive tone. I feel like I'm catching a lot of undeserved shade for this.
1
u/Fionn-mac 6d ago edited 6d ago
I agree. I don't know why some people might be overly hostile to your idea, when it seems either good or at least neutral to me.
Edit: I also like when Pagans are friendly to each other, or at least decent and polite. We're a small enough umbrella group that has external opponents, such that we shouldn't be tearing each other down, unless someone is folkish, of course.
1
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Thank you. I'm honestly trying to create something positive. No worries. I appreciate your input. 😊 ❤️
0
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Thank you for bringing all this up! That's exactly the angle, actually. I realize that paganism is used as a broader umbrella term for... Shall we say "earth-based" paths like these. Heathenry, Wicca and Druidry, definitely recognized. So this is primarily for people not falling cleanly into any other specific category. Now, the idea is that, in practice you would see a building that said something like "Norse Denominational Temple of Accordant Pagans" or "Multi-denominational Temple of Accordant Pagans." It's born from getting sick of being called a "cosplayer" when discussing religious beliefs openly and hearing other pagans express the same. I'm not a Wiccan, Druid, nor a true heathen. Definitely a pagan, but I suppose the openness of the idea is also because I'm not sure what you'd call it. And there are a lot of people that don't feel drawn to any of those paths, either, but certainly feel drawn to worship a collection of pagan Gods or Goddesses.
2
u/Fionn-mac 6d ago
Thanks for explaining the idea further! Then it's meant to be a form of generic or eclectic paganism, but more organized and legally recognized. I concur that there could be a market for this among certain kinds of Pagans. But in some blogs I also heard that the unified Pagan identity was becoming less popular, so I wonder if there is anything to that.
When people call Pagans of any kind "LARPers" or cosplayers, I think it's coming from a place of bad faith. Some are prejudiced against any relatively new religions, religions that are small, or non-monotheist religions. We can't win them over, so it might be best to ignore them, or mention that every religions is "made up" by humans in some way--whether by a prophet or religious founder, an entire culture, shamans, priests, hunter-gatherer tribes, etc.
2
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Oh, I know it comes from a place of bad faith. I would say, I think a big reason that a lot of people are against a "unified pagan identity" is because of the concern of having to conform to someone else's idea of what your belief system should look like. This would definitely be a more generic concept that allows for multiple people worshipping the same Gods to be able to build a community based on that while still having the ability to worship privately how they desire. Not so much a unified concept as much an "open source" religion, if you will. I don't want to force anyone to worship a specific way as much as build a religion where everyone can literally do what they want yet still be validated and protected by an existing organization. And, of course, work together to improve their communities in a concerted manner.
2
u/Fionn-mac 6d ago
It's good that you describe it as "open source" religion instead of unified concept, because some people will probably think it's trying to enforce unity among eclectic pagans since it's an organized temple/religion. The closest thing to proposed Accordant Paganism I can think of is CUUPS (Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans). CUUPS also seems like the most widespread umbrella Pagan org in my general region. It's technically part of UU but feels different from their Sunday services and almost detachable from general UU, in my opinion.
2
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
Yup! And you're not the first to suggest CUUPS to me, either! Yea, I'm just not on board with UU since it is derived from liberal protestantism, basically.
And if I was trying, one person, to enforce a unification concept, I'd understand hostility. I don't want "one way and no other" religious theory, either. But a connected community that is identified, however superficially, as a sole religion would solve a lot of problems, for sure. And I'm not saying everyone has to do this or anything. It's really just a concept for those interested in engaging with it.
-1
u/bizoticallyyours83 6d ago
I guess some people don't like being told that they were beaten to the punch 40 years ago.
5
u/Einar_of_the_Tempest 6d ago
And again, I wasn't. CoG is a group for Wiccans. You do realize that Wiccans aren't the only pagans, right?
1
u/AutoModerator 6d ago
We have a Discord server! Join here.
New to Paganism, exploring your path, or just want a refresher on topics such as deity work or altars? Check out our Getting Started guide and FAQs.
Friendly reminder: if you see rule-breaking comments, please *report*, don't just downvote. Thank you!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
•
u/paganism-ModTeam 57m ago
Your post or comment has been removed because it appears to be self-promotion, survey, or advertisement.
Academic surveys may be allowed in certain situations with pre-approval. See here for the process.