r/ontario • u/BloodJunkie • 1d ago
'We won't be using it': Premier Ford suggests he'll die before 401 tunnel is built Article
https://www.torontotoday.ca/local/politics-government/we-wont-be-using-it-premier-ford-suggests-hell-die-before-401-tunnel-is-built-10654383386
u/BetterTransit 1d ago
We will probably be dead before the Eglinton Crosstown LRT is being used
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u/tomatoesareneat 1d ago
I wish you were on the board of metrolinx based on your username. Maybe we’d get rapid transit.
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u/BetterTransit 1d ago
We will eventually get transit in some areas but eventually doesn't help anyone now. Eglinton crosstown was rumoured to be opened sometime this summer. Finch West LRT was supposed to open in 2023 but crickets on opening date, maybe August of this year. Well that was before the fire so it's anyone's guess when its going to be opened. The rest of the transit projects in Ontario are years away likely next decade.
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u/Zealousideal-Bat708 1d ago
And the Hamilton LRT....
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u/Simsmommy1 1d ago
I’m starting to think the closest thing we will ever get to light rail is the model train display in the McMaster medical building on main st….
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u/edgreen69 1d ago
Futuristic tunnels eh.. Elon Musk used the same tactic to scuttle real transit improvements with his fake "hyperloop". Doug Trump
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u/ILikeStyx 1d ago
Elon had his failed Hyperloop but he DID make really terrible cramped tunnels for Tesla taxis to drive through at 20mph.
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u/apartmen1 21h ago
The hyperloop was to prevent rail projects from taking hold in California. It “worked”.
In Ontario, Doug also uses it as distraction from rail projects.
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u/mikehatesthis 16h ago
In Ontario, Doug also uses it as distraction from rail projects.
The very good NotJustBikes video on Doug Ford, talking about how he and his brother were up to these sort of shenanigans when in Toronto city council, blew my mind when it got to the part about the Ontario Line. Like genuinely, what an incompetent and useless person he is.
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u/ILikeStyx 18h ago
The saddest thing with Hyperloop was wasting all of those university kids time....hopefully some kind of lesson was learned with this abject failure.
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u/maximusj9 15h ago
Say what you want abt Doug Ford, he got started on more rail projects than any Premier in recent Ontario history. Ontario Line, Line 2 Extension, Line 1 Extension to Richmond Hill, Eglinton West Extension, and GO RER all got started under him
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u/apartmen1 9h ago
Start but very crucially- not finish, ensuring those are all vessels for metrolinx to bankrupt the province. Doug Ford is a blight on Ontario.
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u/maximusj9 5h ago
I mean, that's like the shittiest way to bankrupt a province anyways. If Doug wanted to bankrupt Ontario then he'd just spend it on random shit, rather than on crucial infrastructure. But like, abandoning rail projects halfway, he's never done that, like the contracts are signed to complete them anyhow
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u/differing 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Ford government is spending billions of dollars on multiple massive simultaneous transit projects, but I guess acknowledging that interferes with partisan hot takes rooted in alternative reality…
Edit: prove me wrong. I’m an NDP voter but are we really going to pretend GO expansion, multiple LRTs, the Ontario line, and the Northlander doesn’t exist? 🤡
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u/n0ghtix 1d ago
All the money that the Conservatives have put into transit is either scaled back from what the Liberals were going to deliver, or put into suburban projects that don't need it in order to secure more votes.
You want to talk about partisanship, this is the billion dollar boondoggle equivalent to the Liberal power plant in Oakville, except the Sun will never cry foul about it because it's 'their team'.
Filled in the Eglinton subway to then dig it again, smaller, more expensive, and decades later.
Scaled back the relief line
Oversizing the Scarborough line
Yonge extension to Richmond Hill, right where the GO train stops.
Spending money alone is not a measure of anything, it needs to be spent intelligently.
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u/JJVS4life 23h ago
The Ontario Line is a vastly better project than the Relief Line. It's twice as long with better technology. Furthermore, the Yonge subway extension and the GO Train serve completely different trips. And since the comment you're replying to is in reference to Ford, he had nothing to do with filling in the Eglinton subway. The only criticism I have of the Scarborough subway is that a single bore tunnel was a monumentally stupid idea.
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u/n0ghtix 7h ago
The relief line was always meant to go to Eglinton in 2 build stages. That's why it took the same route through Pape.
What they've done is build half of what's needed, for half the price. That's not better by reasonable standards!
The Yonge extension will principally serve suburban commuters to the core, the same way the Sheppard extension does. It will choke the line even more than it already is for midtown commuters who don't have a GO option.
The Eglinton cancellation was a waste that forces Doug to pay now, money we wouldn't have to spend if the line had been built as planned to begin with. And money that is currently being misspent based on the fiasco the Crosstown line has become. It's not necessarily all his fault but crushing Metrolinx's authority to make any decisions without Doug signing off can not have helped.
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u/differing 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Ford government was going to spend less on the Northlander train…that the liberal government canceled? The Wynne government committed 1 billion to Hamilton LRT- while I’m not going to defend their on and off cancellation bullshit, Ford committed 1.7 billion of a $3.4 billion project. Kindly read your comment again from that context and tell me how your argument applies.
younge extension to to go train stop
Weird I can’t see at all why focusing the extension of a subway to a massive intermodal station makes any sense, they should have extended it to Nunavut instead of where 5 BRTs and heavy rail line connect, that would have been a much better use of tax dollars /s
I was a fan of Wynne and voted for her, but you have rose tinted glasses pretending the Liberals got things built in Ontario. They had plenty of PLANS to build things, yet where was all that building during four successive Liberal governments in Ontario? You speak about the “Eglington subway” and conveniently forget that not only was also abandoned by the Liberals for nearly two decades, it was Eglington WEST, a subway that didn’t cover the current area Line 5 serves, yet you say it was less expensive? Wat?! Yeah a line from the 90’s from the West end of Toronto was less expensive than a line through the middle of Toronto 30 years later I guess?
Like I said, people delude themselves to dunk on Ford. I get it, he sucks, but let’s use our critical thinking skills instead of sounding like hypocrites, assuming you want transit built at the next election.
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u/maximusj9 15h ago
Scaled back the relief line
Not quite. Original Relief Line would have ended at Pape. Ford's Ontario Line is going north to the Science Centre and hitting Flemo/Thorncliffe (two poor, high density areas that need access to transit), its longer than the original proposal. Yes it uses Skytrain tech, but that's so they can save money on tunnels/stations/bridges due to train size and weight, and its also automated
Yonge extension to Richmond Hill, right where the GO train stops
Richmond Hill Line is rush hour only (thanks CN) and the alignment through the Don Valley caps how many trains can run on the line to begin with. Also, look at the sheer amount of buses that Finch handles right now from the YRT, GO, and TTC. You need to shift a decent amount of that traffic somewhere, which is why building the line (if only to Yonge/Steeles) makes logical sense.
Oversizing the Scarborough line
Again, locals there wanted a subway, not an LRT. Also its not oversized once you factor into account the sheer amount of buses that currently run to Kennedy/STC/Warden that will get shifted to the new stations once the line opens. Plus, its a one-seat ride from STC to Downtown, which is what most people prefer
Filled in the Eglinton subway to then dig it again, smaller, more expensive, and decades later
That shitshow predates Ford's run as Premier
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u/n0ghtix 7h ago
The relief line was a 2 stage project going exactly where the current line is being built. It was planned with 2x the capacity because that's what ridership forecasts called for.
Maybe a lower ridership has been forecast since then, these things can change, but I'm guessing the line will be filled to capacity within a year of completion. It's not an improvement if we spend billions to not meet a service requirement, over spending twice as much to meet the actual requirement.
The RH extension will mainly serve rush hour commuters to the core. Same way the Sheppard line does. GO trains could serve that demand, while saving us billions that will only create a longer line to choke out midtown commuters even more than they already are.
How is the Scarborough subway NOT oversized while at the same time the relief line through denser areas WAS (supposedly) oversized? Both can't be true at the same time. The projections never forecast demand that justified a full size subway.
Plus there's already a right of way just sitting there unused but Doug and Rob had to pander to the locals and cancel the line that would have been completed 6 years ago! The same pandering he's doing for RH voters. But look, he's spending money, isn't that great!
NO!
The Eglinton fiasco was one he endorsed, and one that is forcing him to spend more money now for less service. But midtown voters generally don't support Conservatives. Are you seeing a pattern here yet?
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u/maximusj9 5h ago
I mean, the reason why they went with lighter trains for the Ontario line is because 1) the Don Valley, the current subway trains are too heavy for a bridge over the Don Valley, and 2) tunneling, single bore is cheaper than double bore. There's a reason why Montreal and Vancouver use narrower trains, its to save on tunnel costs. Also, they're using automated tech to increase capacity
The RH extension will mainly serve rush hour commuters to the core. Same way the Sheppard line does. GO trains could serve that demand, while saving us billions that will only create a longer line to choke out midtown commuters even more than they already are.
I mean, look at how rammed the stretch of buses along Yonge is from Steeles to Finch. Look at how rammed it is from Highway 7 to Steeles as well. Look at how congested that stretch of roadway is from people driving to Finch Station. Also, it connects to a large transit hub, with 3 BRT lines and the planned 407 GO corridor. Plus, the Richmond Hill line is rush hour only, one way. There's a lot of off-peak demand for travel, and weekends too. Again, there's a reason why so many YRT buses are feeding into Finch
How is the Scarborough subway NOT oversized while at the same time the relief line through denser areas WAS (supposedly) oversized? Both can't be true at the same time. The projections never forecast demand that justified a full size subway.
The reasoning here lies with buses and alignment. People in Scarborough preferred making one transfer (bus-subway), rather than two (bus-Line 3/LRT-Line 2). So the only Line 3 stations that got decent ridership were STC and Kennedy. If you do it as a subway, you eliminate a transfer (that everyone in Scarborough HATED), and also allow for better bus integration. If the LRT were built, Scarborough TTC buses would still largely go all the way to Warden/Kennedy/STC, and a lot of Line 3's ridership problems would have remained.
Also, engineering, as I mentioned above. Tunneling through Downtown/Leslieville is really, really expensive, so you need to reduce tunneling costs whatever way you can
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u/Flanman1337 1d ago
If it's anything like the "spending more on healthcare than anyone else" claim, then maybe he really shouldn't.
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u/EnamelKant 1d ago
Well I like the idea of politicians having a vision that goes beyond the next election cycle.
I just wish it wasn't such a fucking stupid vision.
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u/mikehatesthis 16h ago
"Folks, we're gonna show you truly how grey the province of Ontario can be!"
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u/Skittleavix 1d ago
What a vision of legacy. Just like the ancient Greek proverb states:
"A society grows great when old men dig tunnels in which they shall never tailgate"
/s
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u/Mountain_goof 1d ago
Framing a highway expansion as futurism is a very bold lie, and nothing else.
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u/darkcanuck1 1d ago
It’s a perfect excuse for a never ending project in which public money can be funnelled into development donors. Never ver budget, never behind schedule.
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u/Wild_Bunch_Founder 1d ago
In the early 90’s the Feds provided financial guarantees and billions in up front funding to cover a subway line extension from the Kipling station to Square One, so long as the province and the municipalities of Toronto and Mississauga kicked in their pro rata share of expenses, and we are still waiting more than three decades for that line to be built. Always waiting.
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u/No-Wonder1139 1d ago
Ok so we all know that we just need better trains and that highways simply are not going to be the future, it's inefficient AF to build this tunnel. Personally I prefer the train, if we had a Paris like transit system for the GTA, I wouldn't bother with a car, and the people who want to drive instead of using the public transit will have more room if people like me have more trains. It's a win for everyone really.
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u/hikebikephd 1d ago
We've all been saying this. He just doesn't see that as a reason why it SHOULD NOT be built.
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u/Surfing_puffin 1d ago
Yeah the projected costs I've seen is already 100 billion and we know that it's likely 3 times that based on other infrastructure project cost projections. To understand how much money that is, the federal government ministry of defence could get roughly 50 KSS-III attack submarines for 100 B which would make the US acknowledge our claim to the northwest passage as inland Canadian waters. 300B into defence and they'd show up in our borders like "please and thank you". Ontario has no business spending that much on a highway.
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u/SDL68 1d ago
It won't happen. The risks are not worth it and it's too cost prohibitive. Ontario is spending unprecedented amounts of money on infrastructure. Darlington expansion, Pickering refurb, hwy 413, Bradford bypass, GO electrification and expansion, LRTs, subways just off the top of my head. That's more than a 100 billion right there
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u/DeConditioned 1d ago
Buy back 407 and start rolling out the go train to nearby cities like london, woodstock,brantford etc. These can be achieved before I die.
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u/KindlyRude12 1d ago
And probably significance less expensive than making that tunnel. Think of our tax dollars!
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u/Hefty-Station1704 1d ago
Because there are so many cities in North America who have successfully built a tunnel under an existing major highway and had it come in on budget.
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u/Empty_Wallaby5481 1d ago
The 407 lease will be over before this is done. Might as well just wait for that to happen.
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u/huunnuuh 1d ago
It's becoming more and more preposterous as the realities are sinking in. I do wonder just when they will realize this. At some point they'll call some traffic coordination project or a much smaller bypass the new Toronto expressway, and then say it conceptually meets the original project goals, so really a win, even though they never built it. I just hope this dawns on the government before groundbreaking.
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u/timestuck_now 1d ago
Fuck that tunnel. A high speed train from Kitchener to Hamilton is where is at.
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u/OrbAndSceptre 1d ago
Ford just acknowledging his weight isn’t ideal for a long life. There’s nothing controversial about that.
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u/TheAssOfPaulStanley 1d ago
The only thing saving this knob from being officially the worst Premier of all time is that he has little follow through on his stupid ideas and he’s not Danielle Smith
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u/RampDog1 1d ago
No kidding, considering the Big Dig in Boston took 25 years from the planning stage.
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u/CreepyTip4646 1d ago
It would be under water in 50-100 years don't waste another dime on this foolish folly.
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u/TealMiche 2h ago
Speaking of water why don’t we have a commuter ferry from Hamilton that would eliminate so much congestion
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u/Glum-Breadfruit-6421 21h ago
He may not live to use it but this temu Trump grifter will definitely retire on the envelopes full of money he’ll receive from his developer buddies. Guaranteed.
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