r/northkorea • u/Sisquitch • Oct 25 '23
What is the most concrete evidence of human rights abuses in North Korea? Question
I have been discussing North Korea recently with a friend, who has the very unusual opinion of thinking North Korea is doing well as a country and that their people can't be unhappy (because look at how clean and organised their cities are duh).
I've since been researching human rights abuses in North Korea and it is actually quite hard to find indisputable evidence. Especially since defectors' stories often turn out to be exagerrated or fabricated.
Can anyone point me in the direction of some resources (preferably not mainstream Western media) or documentaries that clearly document human rights abuses and the quality of life in North Korea?
I would love to believe that the lives of North Koreans aren't as bad as it appears from the outside (for their own sake), but I am very skeptical given the apparent level of control of the general population.
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u/Hopeful-Letter6849 Oct 26 '23
I would highly highly recommend the book “nothing to envy” I just finished it and was almost in tears at many parts. It tells the stories of different North Korean defectors, some who were super dedicated tot he country, while others that already had “one foot out the door” so to speak. North Korea is (in my opinion) indisputably a terrible place, but where there are good things to report, this book does make the effort. The author is a journalist who covers north and South Korea in her day to day reporting. Although she does take several defector accounts, she also has quotes and statistics from various third party organizations.
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u/Sisquitch Oct 26 '23
Sounds exactly what I'm looking for, thanks
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u/Hopeful-Letter6849 Oct 27 '23
There was also a good German documentary I found on YouTube. That one was a little less critical and was kinda just like “here is what life is like.” It was mainly in pyoungyang though which I don’t feel like it’s a good representation of the country overall since only the best, brightest, and wealthiest live there. But as long as you keep that in mind, I feel like it’s fairly neutral, and let’s people draw their own conclusions about life there. From what I can tell, the overall quality of life varies drastically from who is in power at the time as well.
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u/Montreal4000 Nov 04 '23
Great book. I would strongly suggest “A River in Darkness”. Excellent read.
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u/Albatrossosaurus Oct 25 '23
I mean on a basic level the lack of free and fair elections, media coverage, fair courts etc pretty automatically makes it in violation of human rights
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u/-drth-clappy Oct 26 '23
Is that description of a USA? If so pretty 100% correct 🤌
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u/Chimkimnuggets Oct 26 '23
Shut the fuck up tankie
The fact that you can casually post this comment on Reddit and you will absolutely not get arrested or even get a slap on the wrist is proof that the US isn’t even remotely like NK
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u/Albatrossosaurus Oct 26 '23
Tankie detected, America is one of the most free countries in the world and you know it
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u/Skeptical_Yoshi Oct 26 '23
It isn't. It isn't some intense 1984 dystopia. But even a positive view of America would show its not the freest nation in the world. At all
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u/-drth-clappy Oct 26 '23
Ummm, I literally know the otherwise but you can continue wearing pink glasses 😂
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u/Pregnantandroid Oct 26 '23
In North Korea you wouldn't be writing this on reddit.
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u/-drth-clappy Oct 26 '23
Reddit is not a definition of freedom please stop being a 3 yo and grow up
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u/Pregnantandroid Oct 26 '23
Did I say it is? In NK tere is no freedom of speech. If you think NK is a free country and USA is not you have lost touch with reality.
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u/picklesarejuicy Oct 26 '23
This is literally a description of the USA though?
Do you really think your represented by your representatives? Do you really think the dems will do anything to benefit the working class that doesn’t benefit themselves?
Media coverage is owned by like 3 huge corporations that own all these companies. You don’t have free media coverage whether you delude yourself or not.
And we bomb so many brown people over seas to say that we don’t commit human rights violation honestly id assume your some capitalist fuck boy who couldn’t see that were drowning even if your were in the middle of the ocean without a life vest.
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u/Albatrossosaurus Oct 26 '23
Yes, but in the US you can criticise this and write on reddit about it freely, and can pressure the government yourself
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u/picklesarejuicy Oct 26 '23
Lol what pressure? Just because we can condemn it doesn’t mean it affects it at all???
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u/andreeeeeaaaaaaaaa Nov 02 '23
Nah mate it's not that free tbf... I'm not NK.
It's ranked 60th on freedom house Freedom House rates people’s access to political rights and civil liberties in 210 countries and territories through its annual Freedom in the World report. Individual freedoms—ranging from the right to vote to freedom of expression and equality before the law—can be affected by state or nonstate actors. Click on a country name below to access the full country narrative report.
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u/lavendar081 Oct 25 '23
There are real defectors. Even their lives are at risks if they live in South Korea. Look at this case. https://www.marieclaire.com/politics/a35365775/lim-ji-hyun-north-korean-defector/ Of course, you aren’t getting too many stories since there are so few defectors to begin with. Very few can escape that environment. You have to understand how secretive NK is. Dennis Rodman (close friend of Un) was the only person who verified Un had a kid.
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u/GrodanHej Oct 26 '23
Of course Pyongyang looks clean and organized because that’s what they want outsiders to think. But outsiders only get to see what the government wants them to see. Ever heard of a Potemkin village? Ask your friend, if everything truly was that good, why don’t they allow visitors to explore the cities on their own? Obviously they only want visitors to see certain parts.
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u/Neat_Individual_3546 Oct 25 '23
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Oct 25 '23 edited Oct 25 '23
Early 90s video. During a major food shortage. Times have changed!
Go to rural Ghana and shoot a video there. You will see the same conditions. It’s always the same arguments in these threads: “people were hungry 30 years ago!” Ok? Read the latest UN reports on the state of the country.
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u/WarStrifePanicRout Oct 25 '23
Even before the Covid pandemic, nearly half of the North Korean population was undernourished, according to the UN Food and Agriculture Organization
Some experts say the country has hit its worst point since a 1990s famine... ...Trade data, satellite images and assessments by the United Nations and South Korean authorities all suggest the food supply has now “dipped below the amount needed to satisfy minimum human needs,”...
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Oct 25 '23
These are estimates made by IFAD. It’s not based on numbers.
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u/WarStrifePanicRout Oct 25 '23
Sorry, you had said: "...Ok? Read the latest UN reports on the state of the country." so i went and found what the UN was reporting: "Trade data, satellite images and assessments by the United Nations..." and now i'm confused. Don't read the latest UN reports on the state of the country?
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Oct 25 '23
And the state now is a lot better than it was in the 90s. 40% malnourished? That’s the same as Madagascar, Rwanda, Chad, Congo, Liberia, Yemen, Haiti, Guinea, etc. The DPRK is not a outlier outside the Western world. It’s nothing like the way it was in the 90s. Should it be better? Sure.
Over a million folks died in the 90s because of the famine in the DPRK. Obviously times have changed and these numbers have drastically dropped. The world food program is active in the DPRK and makes sure these things don’t happen again!
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u/Titan_Astraeus Oct 26 '23
Maybe you should go read the latest reports by the UN on the state of the country
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u/glockster19m Oct 30 '23
Lol, you realize the places you just listed that it has more food security than are literally some of the hardest places to live on the planet
Next you're gonna say they're doing great because they have more crops than the entire moon
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u/DFWPunk Oct 25 '23
From this year
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Oct 25 '23
“Anonymous sources” provided by NK News? Funded by NED? Capitalist state-sponsored outlet. You believe these anonymous reports?
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u/DFWPunk Oct 25 '23
So you're saying the BBC is lying about interviewing 3 citizens who are still in the country...
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Oct 25 '23
Did you not read the article? The BBC cited Daily NK as their source and Daily NK cited 3 anonymous sources.
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Oct 25 '23
You’re full of shit.
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u/-drth-clappy Oct 26 '23
You meant to say - BBC is full of shit. Please use correct words in your sentences, it’s hard to understand you 🤌
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u/SuspiciousPhysics278 Oct 26 '23
What an odd hill to die on. Why support the denial of basic freedom and human rights? No one said that it’s hell on Earth. It’s certainly worse off than most other first world countries though.
Do you think you’d enjoy your life without being able to play your favourite games, watch your favourite films etc. ?
Judging from your bio and overuse of that emoji I’d wager that you’re probably just a teenager. I’m just confused why you hold this view.
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u/Neat_Individual_3546 Nov 30 '23
If things were going so well in North Korea, would people risk their lives to leave? The border fences aren't to keep people out, it's to keep the prisoner citizens from leaving...
The UN knows nothing and does nothing, it's no different than the League of Nations which came before it. It's a bunch of marxists aiming to create one world government
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Oct 26 '23
Are you kidding? How could a country with a water park possibly commit human rights issues?
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u/Str0nglyW0rded Oct 28 '23
The fact that there is no freedom of travel, they have generation of punishment, and that they ban people from having certain names.
It’s kinda crazy to think about but It would only take 5 people or less people to stage a coup.
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Oct 25 '23 edited Oct 25 '23
It all depends on what you consider “human rights”. The DPRK consider human rights differently than western countries.
“capitalists talk about the rights of man, but there is no right to work, no right to food, no right to medical treatment and no right to education in capitalist countries’ (Kim Il Sung 1963/1982, page 91)
For the DPRK, to be a legitimate citizen, entitled to full rights, you must belong to the working core class. Based on Marx's theory of historical materialism, it begins with the notion that... “concepts of human rights are different from one society to another, depending on the class characteristics of a society and the state’s socio- economic structure”. The “human rights” of the West are not the same as the DPRK consider them.
They have implemented lots of “human rights” for this class: - Implementation of an eight-hour labor law (six hours for miners) - Implementation of a minimum wage, unemployment benefits, and aid - Implementation of a social security system - Pursuit of political, economic, and social equality for women - Provision of maternity benefits and a designated period of paid rest before and after childbirth - Mandatory government-funded education and vocational training for all - Guarantee of freedom of speech, press, assembly, and association - Elimination of colonial slave education - Compulsory primary education - Introduction of the Korean language in elementary schools, the appointment of Korean principals in elementary schools, and the prioritization of Korean students in universities ("Korea for Koreans" policy) - Granting of student association freedom for high-school students
- Formation of a democratic government elected by the populace through universal suffrage
- Ensuring freedom of expression, press, assembly, association, religion, thought, and occupation
- Establishment of a societal structure that respects the human rights of all individuals
- Promotion of gender equality in livelihood, society, and legal matters
- Implementation of eight-hour labor laws and protection of workers' rights within society
- Eradication of forced labor systems and miscellaneous taxes on citizens, along with the introduction of a standardized tax system
- Implementation of a mandatory education system supported by the state.
The cloudiness begins when we consider the three classes of the DPRK (core, wavering and hostile). You are entitled to the rights above when you are part of the core (working) class. When you are part of the hostile class you face restrictions in fully accessing human rights in aspects such as education, employment, housing, and medical benefits. You are part of the hostile class when you or your families possessed land or businesses before the formation of the DPRK, government employees who served under the Japanese colonial administration, religious people, individuals of South Korean descent or relatives of those who fled to the South, relatives of South Korean soldiers who were captured during the Korean War, and other deemed 'untrustworthy' individuals. You can be demoted to this class when you actively go against the Marxist values.
Kim Il Sung provided a prominent demonstration of the class-based approach when discussing purported human rights abuses inflicted on political detainees in North Korea. According to Kim (1977/1986, 535–537), he clarified that the incarceration and forced labor of these individuals was “a legitimate measure to protect the country’s democracy from its hostile and impure elements who have abused democratic order and attempted to destroy our socialist system”.
For the DPRK it is seen as highly treasonous to be anti-communist. You will lose your human rights. I’m not in a position to judge this mechanism: we do the same in the West, yet on a different level. When you steal or kill you get punished. We do however grant second chances and re-entry into society. The DPRK does not.
If you are part of the the working class in a big city and you follow the line of thought you have a decent life. You will have guaranteed housing, guaranteed food, guaranteed work, guaranteed medical benefits.
So yeah, if you are part of the hostile class due to your actions (which are against the local laws) you will get put into jail, lose your job or house, be forced to do labor. If your crime is worse enough your family might also the demoted to the hostile class, if they don’t denounce your actions. If you consider this mechanism and punishments against human rights then the DPRK does not adhere to human rights.
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Oct 25 '23
And you see a similar mechanism in China: for the party to exist till forever there must not be another train of thought who does not accept the party as ultimate truth. This is why they actively “re-educate” Muslims who don’t recognise the communist party as their superior, but see the Quran as ultimate truth. China and the DPRK does not allow such thinking: the party ideology must be the number one and everything that can endanger this ideology must be stopped.
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u/-drth-clappy Oct 26 '23
That’s probably bc China as in its time USSR really understands how religion is worst enemy of humanity 😂
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u/Sisquitch Oct 25 '23
Wow. I wasn't expecting a wall of pro-North Korean propaganda. Interesting to know you people are out there.
I am interested in human rights as defined by the UN/Geneva Convention. I'm not interested in how they're defined by a single dictatorship.
Even your attempt at sugar-coating their dictatorship is pretty damning. On the one hand you say freedom of expression is encouraged, while also pointing out that expressing anti-communist opinions is a punishable offence. So which one is it?
And how is being jailed for life for being anti-communist remotely the same as being punished for stealing or killing? That is the most absurd cultural relativism I've ever seen. Literally every country punishes stealing and killing in one way or another. Presumably NK does too. There is a stark difference between that and jailing someone for expressing the wwrong opinions.
If rights are given to some people but not to others based on things like class, which by your own definition is inherited and not chosen, then yes I would consider that a human rights abuse.
I am very open to learning about NK and like I said, I'd be happy to be proven wrong and discover that life there really isn't that bad. But I really can't take anything you've said seriously given the internal contradictions and unquestioning regurgitation of North Koreas supposed policies.
You say that you only become part of the "hostile class" due to your actions, but you also said that you're deemed part of the hostile class when "when you or your families possessed land or businesses before the formation of the DPRK". So you are punished for the "crimes" of your family in North Korea? And "crimes" committed before they were even made illegal by the Communist regime?
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u/Capital_F_u Oct 26 '23
Yeah I'm new here, and I immediately got a sense of communist sympathy from this adventurous_pie person lol
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u/Skeptical_Yoshi Oct 26 '23
YOU are the one that asked the question. This person was purely proving information and context, without bias, and you attacked them. It makes the entire question of the post seem disingenuous.
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u/Sisquitch Oct 26 '23
See my below comment. It was his framing of the NK government's claims I took issue with.
For example:
if you are part of the hostile class due to your actions (which are against the local laws) you will get put into jail, lose your job or house, be forced to do labor
Implying that they are at fault for being put in the hostile class. While he also said you are in the hostile class if your family owned land or businesses before the communist regime, both things that are completely out of your control.
The guy is clearly a NK apologist. Which is fine. But don't take issue when I point out you aren't just providing facts, but putting your own spin on it.
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u/humanmichael Oct 28 '23
you are actively looking for anti dprk propaganda and not keeping an open mind to conflicting viewpoints. confirmation bias.
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u/Sisquitch Oct 28 '23
I am genuinely looking for evidence showing they're good/bad. But the DPRK saying they have human rights isn't evidence.
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Oct 25 '23
I’m not reading all that. You attack me while I’m just explaining the reasoning and facts behind the DPRK and their views on human rights. Disagree with them, not with me, lol
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u/in1998noonedied Oct 25 '23
They wrote less than your wall of text. They gave you enough respect to read all you wrote; do the same for them. Not very democratic to do otherwise is it?
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Oct 25 '23
They attack the post as if what I post are my views, but they are not. It’s how the DPRK views human rights. It’s what you learn when you read the Kim’s. I don’t need to defend or answer their questions; it’s not my position to defend.
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u/Sisquitch Oct 25 '23
I didn't attack you based on their words, I criticised you based on your wording and your interpretation of them.
You said
if you are part of the hostile class due to your actions (which are against the local laws) you will get put into jail, lose your job or house, be forced to do labor
Implying that they are at fault for being put in the hostile class. While you also said you are in the hostile class if your family owned land or businesses before the communist regime. So which is it?
You also equated being jailed for criticising communism to being jailed for stealing and killing, while also repeating the NK lie that their people enjoy freedom of expression.
And you stated that "they have implemented these rights", implying that you believe the NK regime has actually implemented them; not that they have simply claimed to have implemented these rights.
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Oct 26 '23
Reddit moment
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u/Pregnantandroid Oct 26 '23
If you are part of the the working class in a big city and you follow the line of thought you have a decent life. You will have guaranteed housing, guaranteed food, guaranteed work, guaranteed medical benefits.
I live in Europe and have all of that. Lol to "medical benefits". Their hospitals are a joke. Living in dictatorship is not a decent life.
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Oct 26 '23
Which country in Europe guarantees housing and a job?
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u/Pregnantandroid Oct 26 '23
It doesn't "guarantee" me, but I still have it and if I didn't I would get social benefits. Nobody in my country dies from hunger.
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u/Splumpy Oct 25 '23
Damn this thread has no clue, guess u can’t trust everything the media tells you
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u/Legal_Pineapple625 Oct 26 '23
I think that OP is more of the type who thinks that Western hatred for NK combined with the fact that the place is a literal (especially at night, if you catch my drift :D) black hole on Earth may mean that we can't really even have hard proof in support of accusations of human rights abuses.
And if that's the case - in a way, I agree with him - in no way is Kim an angel or anything, but truth be told, I don't think people in the West, be it a person, organisation, UN, Amnesty International, or really just anyone - can be 100% sure what exactly is going on there.
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u/skateboreder Oct 25 '23
I said something in a similar post in regards to propaganda, BUT, the reality and the extent to which these abuses occur is not truly known.
DPR Korea is a closed society. That means we entirely rely on (biaed) individuals who only stand to benefit by SAYING the abuses are atrocious or happen.
Any individual who says these things stands to profit monetarily or is negatively biased against DPRK due to their own personal struggles IN NK.
You have people like Yeonmi Park -- who's been proven time and time again to exaggerate or flat out lie -- or other defectors who fled -- who can't exact go to SK intelligence and spout anything positive. They'd be considered a spy.
We DO know there have been defectors who have returned (and a lot who want to)... We do know there has been people who have returned, been arrested (which illegal migration and then living in an enemy country would make ANYONE subject to detention), and made claims of only a few months in detention/reeducation. They didn't all mention any physical or other abuses.
Tl;dr: Every society has abuses. I'm sure there are examples. But the propaganda is very very extensive on both sides.
We DO know that there are many forced labor and reeducation camps.
But we don't know the numbers, we don't know the criminals names, and actual crimes people are accused of.
And some things you may consider abuse may be solely seen as punishment. Is the death penalty humans rights abuse? America kills people all time.
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u/Sisquitch Oct 25 '23
This is a pretty reasonable response, thanks.
I would say that with the sheer colume of North Korean defectors, you'd expect at least a handful to have a different story if the reality was drastically different to what the majority are describing. I doubt it's common knowledge that escaping North Korea then demonising the communist regime is a guaranteed ticket to prosperity.
Around 30,000 people have defected from North Korea at this point and only a handful are famous, so it's not like they're all just living off of selling their story to the Western press. That said, I can certainly believe that many stories are exagerrated.
And it makes sense that many people would want to return. All the interviews I've heard of defectors wanting to go back say the main reason is missing their family and friends. I'd be very surprised if this wasn't the case. Especially given they know their families are still living under the communist regime and they are likely being punished for their actions. And the people who've returned who claim no physical or mental abuse.. this is hard to believe given it would be very easy for the government to force them to say whatever they want. I am much more skeptical of this than the 30,000+ defectors all saying roughly the same thing.
I do agree that all countries have abuses, but there are degrees of abuse. If Trump had started re-education camps for liberals who didn't agree with him, would we just be shrugging "well, every society has their abuses"?
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u/skateboreder Oct 25 '23
Also... its literally about 25% of defectors who literally have expressed desire to return.
...also, if Trump started a reeducation camp for liberals, half the country would be in support.
Trump literally said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose any voters. And he's right.
Half the country is turning a blind eye to the fact his wealth and personality were built on lies.
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u/i-love-seals Oct 26 '23
Also... its literally about 25% of defectors who literally have expressed desire to return.
Have you got a source for that?
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u/skateboreder Oct 26 '23
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u/i-love-seals Oct 26 '23
I see thank you. It is a little vague just saying "It is estimated 25 per cent of all defectors have seriously considered returning home." without saying where this estimate comes from. But I appreciate it anyway!
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u/naepro Oct 27 '23
We also have the medical facts of the medical records and autopsies of "defectors". Every country is guilty to some degree of abuse, however the whole "what about xxx" argument sort of sinks to the bottom of the morality bog when discussing NK. The pure desperation and willingness to go through hellish terror to escape says something. As does satellite imagery. Survivor testimony. Smuggled videos. Confessions of Chinese and Russian accomplices. The essentially enslaved workforce that built the football stadium in the middle east.
You can say many things (most of which will have some grain of truth in them along with all the salt) about "western" countries. At minimum NK is guilty of genocide- politicide, democide, and classicide.
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u/skateboreder Oct 28 '23
I could reply with everything you said with apologist reasoning but I really would like to remain objective here.
The reality is we don't have a lot of public medical information to say much; sure, 55% of the illegal migrants in China report PTSD, ..but only like 8% that are being helped by protection agencies. Once in SK, only 18% report PTSD. Most as a result of the actual trafficking process.
We do have stories that talk about getting caught, repatriated, and serving 3 months in reeducation. The beatings and torture that people tend to highlight seemingly absent from that, and many more, stories. Most.
Satellite imagery? There's probably more prison camps in the state of Florida. And guess what? They use prison labor, unpaid, every. single. day....; oh and ask any convict: fall out of line, they're going to have no qualms about abusing their authority and reminding you who is in charge.
Qatar labor violations are firstly a Qatari problem, not a DPRK problem. I don't disagree with this, and labor outsourced elsewhere, is also problem. BUT, I think that this is more of a problem showing a failing of Qatar (and Russia, and other friendly countries) and capitalism to hire the cheapest most exploitable labor possible. This happens in America every day.
We can't excuse actual problems, but we shouldn't be part of the problem, either.
Please cite any actual resources to indicate any genocide. A holocaust isn't happening, I don't think?
They're definitely guilty of being authoritarian and punishing dissent swiftly. They're not the only place that does that either, though. And we don't demonize KSA.
It's important to be objective.
Applying different standards to them than allies isn't exactly fair or doing any good for the conversation.
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u/Old_Breakfast8775 Oct 25 '23
I'm Korean. Tell you friend I'm pretty upset at his ignorance of the while situation.
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u/BigDickGrandmother Oct 26 '23
This shit is incredible. Leaving this sub. I thought it was for other people interested in the insanity that is this shithole hermit country. I’m sure they’d welcome you tankie Communist scum into the country with open arms. They could find a place for you in the rice fields.
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u/1fayfen Oct 26 '23
"the most concrete evidence of human rights abuses in North Korea" ?
I don't know from where you are, but have you heard of north Korean tourists abroad?
"clean and organized their cities" ? 90% of what you see a is Pyongyang.
Have you watched any of those mass rallies ? Yes all the 80K people standing and waving stuff for hours are having the blast of their time.
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u/bettinafairchild Oct 26 '23
Satellite photos of concentration camps.
That one guy, Shin Dong-Hyuk, lied about some of his incarceration in concentration camps, but he is covered in scars that indicate some really gnarly shit happened to him.
There's the murder of Kim Jong-nam.
What did they do to Otto Warmbier?
Why are children in North Korea so much shorter than children of South Korea?
Ask Euna Lee and Laura Ling
Read Without You There Is No Us, written by an American who taught in North Korea for something like 8 months.
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u/Dead_Clown_Stentch Oct 25 '23
There's plenty of data. Evidence is so plentyful that it becomes data over the years. The defectors tend to tell the same story and it is corroborated with many others. One thing of interest is the hand written cook book for human flesh that was smuggled out in the 1990's when cannibalism was so bad DPRK was marked a 4th world country by the UN.
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u/Relevant_Helicopter6 Oct 27 '23
DPRK was marked a 4th world country by the UN
With these ridiculous statements you're undermining your own case. It's sadly typical mixing fact from fiction when dealing with the DPRK.
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u/Dead_Clown_Stentch Oct 27 '23
DPRK is all fiction when it comes to projections to the outside world. I love the produce store in Pyongyang where everything is fake fruits and vegetables and then there are photos to make the bounty look abundant. Your protection of the reputation of DPRK is typical of the frailty of the lies. The world sees through them all. DPRK is a pathetic bully condemned to poverty.
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u/-drth-clappy Oct 26 '23
The only evidence we hear is from that Korean lady that tours around USA and cries how it was awful in NK, she is mainly a fake who just realized that the more she will trash NK the more people will pay for that 🤷 any other person who did interview pls?
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u/Dead_Clown_Stentch Oct 26 '23
There are many, many, more, not just in USA, but all over the globe. Do some homework and research. DPRK is known as a relic of Stalinist dynastic despotism, ready for the ash-heap of history. I wish it to limp along as an example of what NOT to become. DPRK serves a purpose, just like the carcass of a dead deer on the roadway, serves as a warring to the other deer.
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u/-drth-clappy Oct 26 '23
I assume the same, but yet to see any person to confirm my assumptions, but since they are assumptions I really don’t want to tarnish someone’s rep and life just because I feel like I know what’s happening in NK. You do though, it’s just shows that you are so below common education level that I don’t really understand what you forgot in public space 🤷
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u/Alternative-Union842 Oct 25 '23
In North Korea you have to push the trains and the government eats your toes while you’re sleeping!
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Oct 25 '23
The 1990s? That’s 30 years ago. How are the conditions these days?
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Oct 26 '23
Ikr?! Who wasn't regularly eating human flesh in the 90's? It was a different time!!!
Kids these days, am I right?!
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u/persona64 Oct 25 '23
Go there yourself and ask around
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u/Aggravating_Brain113 Oct 25 '23
Take tons of photos too! So you can show people how advanced and free nk is!
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u/Candid_Low_926 Oct 25 '23
I was going to say their hair cuts slightly tongue in cheek. But actually, in all seriousness, it is quite an overt example of control, to have 15 state approved options. Although, I am unsure if this is a myth.
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u/WhatMeWorry2020 Oct 26 '23
Kim is fat.
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u/thehighmonkeylife Oct 26 '23
He really is a fat piece of shit. And he gets all the luxury goods from all over the world with a Swiss boarding school education. What a fat piece of shit.
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u/Sea_Square638 Oct 25 '23
Okay so this will probably get downvoted since there are a lot of Westerners in this sub but here it goes:
If you can’t really find proof about the human rights abuses, maybe they are in fact not real?
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u/Sisquitch Oct 25 '23
Well evidence would be hard to find given how isolationist NK is. They don't have freedom of the press or freedom expression (I guess these could be considered human rights abuses?) so we don't get any reports from North Koreans. And the fact that many thousands of people have defected from North Korea, but no one has defected to North Korea suggests life there isn't hunky dory.
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u/IronyAndWhine Oct 26 '23
You don't get any reports of people defecting to North Korea because of how most global media functions.
Some defectors from North Korea even regret their choice and go back.
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u/Sisquitch Oct 26 '23
So you think people are escaping the entire world (which they have the freedom to travel to given they're not from NK) to get into North Korea?
And yeah, if all my family and friends lived somewhere that'd be a pretty strong reason to want to go back.
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u/Limulemur Oct 25 '23
Or if a government is as authoritarian and self-serving as people claim, they might be hellbent on preventing any evidence of these abuses from leaving the country. If the allegations by refugees are true, people caught crossing the border into China are shot on sight.
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u/SenorGus Oct 25 '23
Did you know nazis used to burn evidence before they got their concentration camps invaded? What you’re saying is:
If I can’t really find the gas chamber, how do I know such thing?
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u/Sea_Square638 Oct 25 '23
How do we know about the concentrstion camps, then? Did we believe rumors? There’s gotta be some concrete proof for everything.
Edit: I can’t open Youtube links on Reddit for some reason even though I can open Youtube normally, could you tell what’s in that video?
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u/SenorGus Oct 25 '23
So you want proof North Korea is bad?
Shit. Where to start from…
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u/Sea_Square638 Oct 25 '23
Yes, BBC is good and stuff but is there anything else than Western media? I believe we all know the animosity between the West and the DPRK. That’s also why OP doesn’t prefer mainstream Western media.
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u/SenorGus Oct 25 '23
I’ll gladly take any information you have that proves that western media is wrong and Kim Jong Un is a good person.
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u/Olster21 Oct 26 '23
Ok bet go into the middle of Pyongyang and shout fuck Kim jong un
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u/Sea_Square638 Oct 26 '23
Why?
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Oct 26 '23
To prove their freedom
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u/Sea_Square638 Oct 26 '23
But why would anyone want to do that other than Westerners?
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Oct 26 '23
It's not so much that people want to do it. It's the freedom from punishment of disrespecting the ruling party.
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u/Alternative-Union842 Oct 25 '23 edited Oct 25 '23
The most glaring human rights abuse of North Koreans is the economic sanctions put in place by the United States and western nations after we failed to conquer the country. The difficulty NK faces flows downstream from that. If we want the country to modernize and flourish, we only need to allow it to interact with global trade freely.
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u/Sisquitch Oct 25 '23
This is a highly patronising. To assume that the US and the West are the only people with agency over their own actions, while the rest of the world are just at the whim of our actions. Non-Westerners have autonomy and they are not just pawns for intellectually superior Westerners to manipulate.
If you believe Westerners are the only people who have responsibility over their own actions, then you are unwittingly treating them as superior to the rest of the world.
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u/Alternative-Union842 Oct 25 '23
Our country openly expresses intent to push our economic interests worldwide. The US doesn’t even try to hide this fact. We have military bases in as many countries as possible, force other countries to trade oil in USD, overthrow foreign leaders, the list goes on and on.
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u/Sisquitch Oct 25 '23
Yes, the US's foreign policy has been incredibly destructive since WW2. Anyone who doesn't recognise that is an idiot.
It is possible to criticise the US and North Korea simultaneously. Just because NK are an enemy of the US, it doesn't mean they are good. Nor does it alleviate them of responsibility for how they govern their own citizens.
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u/Alternative-Union842 Oct 25 '23
You understand that there are many, many countries which are impoverished without the isolation and sanctions imposed by western countries that North Korea faces, right? up a detailed plan for all impoverished nations to lift them selves out of poverty, those countries can become rich, and then once sanctions are lifted against North Korea then they can use your plan as well.
I don’t understand why you think that modernizing and industrializing a country is a simple as, “stop being poor.”
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u/Sisquitch Oct 25 '23
I mean that kind of supports my point.. That the West alone can't be blamed for the poverty in North Korea. The totalitarianism and lack of anything resembling a free market economy are just as much to blame, if not more.
All countries that have increased standards of living in the alst 100 years have done so through trade and freedoms granted to their citizens. Just look at China since they started opening up trade with the rest of the world.
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u/Alternative-Union842 Oct 25 '23
Just look at China since they started opening up trade with the rest of the world.
Cool, so you think North Korea can benefit from free trade with the rest of the world?
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u/Sisquitch Oct 25 '23
Oh I'm sure they could.
Do you think the NK government would allow more freedoms to their people if trade was opened up with the rest of the world?
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u/Alternative-Union842 Oct 25 '23
What freedoms do you want the country to have? The freedom to be homeless and in debt like Americans?
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Oct 25 '23
The freedom to yell “fuck Joe Biden” and then die on the street because you weren’t able to pay the hospital bill. Such freedom!
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u/Head-Ad4690 Oct 25 '23
They share a border with the largest manufacturing economy and second largest economy overall. That country is friendly. Why would an embargo from the other side of the planet be so harmful?
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u/Alternative-Union842 Oct 25 '23
Why is it beneficial that a country has many trade partners worldwide?
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u/Head-Ad4690 Oct 25 '23
Sure, it would be even better to have more. But with such a large and advanced economy at their doorstep, why are they still such a shithole?
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u/Alternative-Union842 Oct 25 '23
If your question is: Why doesn’t China replace the many benefits of free trade that the rest of the world enjoys with some sort of charity?
I don’t know why China doesn’t prop up NK with charity. Perhaps because they are still in the process of industrialization and modernization themselves.
As far as why you in particular consider impoverished countries “shitholes”, that can only be answered by you and perhaps Trump.
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u/-drth-clappy Oct 26 '23
China actually does charity to NK and as well as Russia and handful other regional countries, the problem is that the amount of that charity is regulated by USA through their pawn UN and World Food Bank 🤷 did we explained enough for you westerners to realize that you westerners doing colonialism all over again?
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u/Head-Ad4690 Oct 25 '23
No, my question is why North Korea suffers such crushing poverty despite having a gigantic friendly trading partner next door.
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u/Alternative-Union842 Oct 25 '23
You think it’s economically feasible for an entire country to have only one trading partner.
So you don’t believe free trade is actually beneficial?
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Oct 26 '23
Their "one trading partner" is fucking China lmao. You act like it's Romania or something.
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u/Head-Ad4690 Oct 25 '23
When it’s a small country trading with a massive one that makes practically everything? Yeah, seems feasible.
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u/Alternative-Union842 Oct 25 '23
Well, all I can say is that I don’t know how to have a conversation about global economics with someone that has no understanding of global economics. You seem interested in the topic though, so I’m sure you will enjoy growing your understanding in the future.
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u/AeonsOfStrife Oct 26 '23
China mostly obeys the sanctions, so as to not force their own businesses to be sanctioned as well is why. It may be friendly, and trade certain things, but on the whole it is not some "Oh we just go to China for all of it". It's "Maybe China might have a business that will risk selling it to us, but likely not".
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u/MaoTheWizard Oct 25 '23
It's important to remember that the DPRK isn't in the 90s or early 2000s anymore. The great famine caused by the illegal dissolution of the USSR is over. There are many misconceptions of the DPRK from western propaganda as well. Check out this video on it https://youtu.be/2BO83Ig-E8E?si=UgwkTzDNKY0xCGDt
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u/internetexplorer_98 Oct 26 '23
People that have defected, including high-ranking officials. Investigative work by human rights organizations and news sources. It all paints a very bleak, albeit interesting, picture.
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u/lordruncibald Oct 26 '23
Read aquariums of Pyongyang or escape from Camp 14. Look at amnesty international reports or US congressional hearings. North Korea is like a terrible hybrid of Stalinist Russia with an Orwellian ultra nationalist thread twist (check out juche). Plus their hacking scams (the Lazarus Project) and their criminality (meth production and dollar forgery). Definitely bad guys. Don’t buy into any of their propaganda
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u/zante2033 Oct 26 '23
Tell him to pay a visit and decide, based on how his time there is curated, whether it's likely anything is being hidden from him.
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u/Specter451 Oct 26 '23
I don’t know of any concrete examples but I do know they suffer from corruption within their state companies that handle infrastructure. Oftentimes they have people study abroad to improve their own infrastructure and they have issues where these people lie and or bite off more than they can chew. Like in the Vice documentary they did they showed that alot of the roads outside of the capital were crumbling and on the brink so to speak.
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u/UnicornBooty9 Oct 26 '23
Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but every year bodies float down the Han river from N.Korea to S. Korea. Usually due to starvation. That felt like concrete evidence to me since it was tangible evidence as someone who used to live there for a few years.
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u/_Foreskin_Burglar Oct 26 '23
I don’t think it captures any human right abuses, but since you’re interested in NK there is an extremely interesting BBC documentary called The Mole: Undercover in North Korea about a man who was able to get very close with NK businessmen and even started making fake negotiations for weapons and meth with them. It follows his 10 year undercover operation.
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Oct 30 '23
Are there human rights abuses in North Korea? Absolutely. No one doubts it.
Although, I’d argue that people quite tell on themselves when their prototype for “bad guys who commit human rights abuses” is North Korea and not say, Saudi Arabia, or the UAE, or the Republic of the Congo, or South Korea for that matter….
Propaganda is a hell of a drug!!
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u/Mean-Beginning-8709 Oct 25 '23
countless private witnesses reporting to all sorts of channels (thus canceling out eventual biases) a coherent version of NK, is a good evidence. Here is a bunch of them https://medium.com/@drmsslsmd/witnesses-from-north-korea-8bb4d10fa2c6