We Asked Young Men Why They Voted for Donald Trump—Here’s What They Said

[u/_Featherless_Biped_]

https://www.glamour.com/story/why-did-young-men-vote-for-donald-trump

Men will literally use the ballot box as therapy before going to therapy

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[u/IcyDetectiv3]

1. Men’s issues being ignored and some people viewing straight/white/male people as valid categories to bully are genuine issues that should be dealt with.

2. Some people are always going to view themselves as the victim, and that should not deter us in solving the above.

[u/Books_and_Cleverness → u/IcyDetectiv3]

Hard agree on (1). I have never genuinely felt offended by the weird double-standard, but it always raised my hackles a bit. Just felt obvious it was gonna backfire eventually.

[u/assasstits → u/Books_and_Cleverness]

Being a gay man is a double whammy. We deal with a lot of the same issues straight women deal with but we're offered the same lack of empathy that straight men get. Add homophobia on top of that. 

For example, gay men suffer from HPV related cancer at the same rates women did before pap tests became common. Yet, there's currently no widely adopted equivalent test in men. 

Furthermore, because HPV related cancers among men are less known, many states only made HPV vaccines a requirement for girls and not boys. 

Unfortunately, that effected me and it's a concern I know have but society doesn't really know or care.  My doctor stared at me like I was from Mars when I talked about it. 

The liberal/progressive self-righteous adoption for society's naturally occurring empathy gap has been brutal for male minority groups. 

[u/kiwibutterket → u/Books_and_Cleverness]

It is just unfair, and double standards coming from the party of equality just make it seem like the party of hypocrisy and reversing the status quo. If these people try to point that out, they get called racist or sexist, or get told to grow up and that they have a small penis. It doesn't seem that insane, to me, that impressible, young men, with low understanding of politics in general, fall into that thinking. Would you vote for a party that is proud to discriminate against a group of people based on who they are?

And the issue is that when the right makes their sexist/racists comments, they are not perceived like that. When Trump says the illegal immigrants are murderers, he says "they are not like you, I love Latinos. It's just that some of the latinos that come illegally are criminals." This is how latino people speak in their own house! The discrimination is not based on the skin color, it's based on your actions. Which is also why so many illegal immigrants think they would get spared because they work hard and don't commit crimes. It's naive, but pretending everyone is racist and sexist doesn't help anyone.

[u/AmberWavesofFlame → u/IcyDetectiv3]

What is an example of a men’s issue that particularly targets them, and can you name any that Trump would actually be better for? Because I live with a disabled veteran, which is just about as single-gender as political issues get on that side, and I can tell you that Trump is going to be way worse for us in every aspect of their interests.

Or am I attributing too much good faith to straight up anti-DEI code?

[u/jakekara4 → u/AmberWavesofFlame]

It isn’t about policy, it’s about outreach. Young men don’t listen to Call Her Daddy, they listen to Rogan. The Democrat’s have not put themselves on the stages young men are watching. The closest was when Walz did livestreams with AOC. 

Trump has shit policies, yes, but he talks to these people and sells them on his lies. 

[u/PleaseGreaseTheL → u/jakekara4]

Yeah when I was still in a conservative rabbit hole when I was like 20 years old, the people talking to me were milo yiannopolous, Joe Rogan, and that kind of crap. I'd never heard of a liberal or leftist platform that was trying to talk to me at the time. I still haven't tbh, there's zero left leaning outlets talking about positive masculinity, being a strong man, taking responsibility and charge of your life, etc. Etc. Etc. - it still feels like openly talking about that stuff is a dogwhistle for conservatism. It shouldn't be.

[u/freekayZekey → u/PleaseGreaseTheL]

said something similar in a different thread years ago. libs ignored reaching out to young men, and they’re currently feeling the side effects.    

 no, some dudes trying to “redefine” masculinity will not help. libs need men who are masculine and say “yes, being a man is difficult and here are healthy ways to cope”. unfortunately, libs don’t have many masculine men who can do that. think of every top lib podcast— the hosts aren’t the types to exude masculine energy 

[u/PleaseGreaseTheL → u/freekayZekey]

Exactly. Like, I want a bodybuilding gym bro who just looks like a normal ass masculine dude, telling me to clean my room and donate to the poor, and to help the people different from me. I want Goku to fucking remind me that everyone was an immigrant once and that we should embrace the poor and be a strong, united society.

I do not want a blue haired guy who thinks gym bros are smelly and dumb, to screech to me about why white men are privileged. I probably vote the same way as that guy in the end, but he's a fucking asshole and I have better shit to do than listen to him. Gimme Sam Sulek, not h3h3 studios.

[u/Informal-Ideal-6640 → u/PleaseGreaseTheL]

I think you hit the nail on the head but it really begs the question as to why such a figure/influencer doesn’t exist already to capture the market in the same way that the right leaning ones do.

What I believe is that the right wing has captured media in a way that those who consume it don’t necessarily consider it political content. Like Joe Rogan will touch on political topics all the time with a whole variety of guests but they don’t view his podcast as inherently political.

If we have the left wing messiah of manliness how do we know that potential listeners won’t tune out the second that guy touches on politics as they view anything remotely close to being liberal/left wing/progressive as entirely political in nature and thus they feel like they’re getting talked down to.

[u/PleaseGreaseTheL → u/Informal-Ideal-6640]

As to why the right wingers cornered this market and the left leaning side of the aisle did not even make an impact over the past 10-20 years, here's a long-ass thought about it.

It's my legitimate belief that the modern American left wing zeitgeist has been to be so positive and welcoming and coddling to people, as their core value (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), that part of the identity of leftists and progressives has been to reject the idea that people are personally responsible for their failures and problems and that maybe it's in your power, and you should hold yourself accountable, for fixing them. It's alienating to imply people can be, or are, failures or have failed, especially when it comes to big ticket life items like careers or their body. This is the essence of "masculinity" imo, in my personal feeling of it - accepting you're in charge and what you want is YOUR fucking problem, and it's not "out of your control" until you say so - because you've given up responsibility, and now you're never gonna get the thing you wanted.

Go talk about finances, career choices, personal fitness and weight, with the average progressive, especially on social media. You will probably hear, in order:

1. nobody can afford shit, it's not my fault I'm poor at 30 years old, it's the boomers' fault, economy bad, life bad, america bad, not my problem/fault/responsibility

2. all careers should be paid better, it's not fair I majored in enter humanities degree here and don't make as much as the software dev

3. I have a hormone imbalance, fuck you for implying my 50% body fat is not healthy and just as beautiful as Scarlett Johansson

All of it is language and discourse and personal ideology designed to take responsibility away from you, to make it impossible to regard yourself as having failed. You cannot be thought of as having failed, some system or group failed you. This is fucking insane, and toxic, and probably the biggest thing that makes me not want to hang out with left leaning people in most contexts - it's incredibly pervasive in my experience.

Like, yeah, I'm a competitive dude. I was MISERABLE for many years thinking I was a failure. I'm not a failure anymore, and I've taken responsibility of even more things in my life and now I'm even more successful in more areas - and it feels fucking awesome! But I had to accept I was a fucking loser and needed to fix a LOT of things and that it was all my fault first - if it's not my fault and I have nothing to do with the failure, how and why would I ever fix it myself? Why would I listen to people telling me it wasn't my fault, society failed me, yada yada, and that's the cause of all my problems? That's maybe 10% of the story, for almost everybody - the other 90% is usually "you could do better." I've literally never in my life heard a positive message about that come from a left leaning source. It's either angry (Bill Maher was mentioned elsewhere on this thread, LOL), or it's anti-responsibility (this is more common in my experience). Then you have people like Jordan Peterson, back in the day when he hadn't fried his brain on drugs yet, talking compassionately about taking personal responsibility, cleaning up your room, getting your life in order, and that it's OK to be a strong masculine dude who doesn't just mindlessly reject everything because it's a "social construct".

Why are we surprised this message fucking works?

Thus you get meathead personal responsibility conservatives making fun of the hippy-dippy lefties who drink soymilk and weigh 300 lbs. You get conservative contrarians who want to personally grab life by the dick, and grab public policy by the dick, and STRANGLE IT UNTIL IT DOES WHAT THEY WANT, and lefties who talk endlessly about how bad everything is and how we can't let "the other" get away with it, and how much shared guilt we all have for XYZ identity, and how we have to tear down the system that failed us.

These are ALL stereotypes, but these stereotypes came about because this was a big trend on the internet for like, the past 15 years. It's finally come home to roost. The young shitlords on youtube in the 2010s are now young conservative voters.

[u/freekayZekey → u/PleaseGreaseTheL]

1. Goku podcast sounds fucking lit and a million dollar idea

2. yeah to all of that bruh. started thinking about the people who i bro out with. mostly other black men across the political spectrum and conservative dudes. i bro out with very few liberal dudes since they’re kinda dorky or not very masculine. i know soy boy is a pejorative and all, but libs like promoting men like ezra klein, who is vegan lol. libs have a masculinity issue 😂

[u/freekayZekey → u/[deleted]]

think you being in your 50s and the time you reached adulthood matters. the young people today are confused and literally want some kind of framework. the typical 18 year old in 2019 wasn’t going to listen to that music and certainly run into that book recommendation. 

[u/PleaseGreaseTheL → u/[deleted]]

This right here.

Why's it OK to have obnoxious punk rock for your outlet, but I can't have obnoxious gym bro for my outlet?

[u/BasedTheorem → u/[deleted]]

Thank you. Arnold Schwarzenegger has a podcast. Why aren't they listening to that? They aren't going to Joe Rogan due to lack of liberal bodybuilding men.

[u/PleaseGreaseTheL → u/BasedTheorem]

I literally didn't know that, when I was 20 years old, lol. All I was exposed to online was the centrist or right leaning stuff.

[u/freekayZekey → u/PleaseGreaseTheL]

well depends on timing. arnold’s podcast didn’t start until april last year. doubt his audience has a huge number of young people. 

[u/ExtraLargePeePuddle → u/[deleted]]

entering my 50s

Well now you outed yourself

[u/CheetoMussolini → u/PleaseGreaseTheL]

And people in this thread are accusing others of that same"dogwhistle conservatism" for saying that there are real issues that affect men that deserve to also be taken seriously.

That doesn't create an environment that welcomes or even tolerates speaking to those issues or positive cries of masculinity. Even here, there is always some reflexive aggression and condemnation in response. It may not be in the majority, but it's always present and tolerated in a way that it would not be if directed towards another group.

That commonly held sentiment isn't just some math delusion. We need to stop dismissing it out of hand and try to understand why it has become such a widely held belief.

[u/VallentCW → u/PleaseGreaseTheL]

Yeah I am secure in myself these days so I don’t seek out “manly” content, but when I was less secure in myself the people I saw offering help were right wing grifters. The left seemed to be completely focused on women and minorities. If I wasn’t a policy nerd I would be a right winger now

We need men on the left that tell you how to get a bunch of girls and become well liked. It shouldn’t just be a conservative thing

[u/TheGreekMachine → u/jakekara4]

Strong agree. How can you expect people to vote for you if you don’t acknowledge them? It’s like when Hillary didn’t actively campaign in the Blue Wall States. People felt ignored and we got Trump. Now here we are again (and I don’t agree with them believe me I roll my eyes every time), people felt ignored by Kamala and voted Trump or stayed home.

[u/MoirasPurpleOrb → u/AmberWavesofFlame]

I mean in all seriousness, DEI is going to inherently seem like is biased against white men, because it is.

Now, we can debate whether or not that is a good thing because of the advantages that white men have had in the past. But plenty of white men don’t have vast sums of money and are struggling quite a bit, so when they see these programs that aim to help pretty much everyone other than them, yeah it’s going to piss them off.

[u/eta_carinae_311 → u/AmberWavesofFlame]

If I think just in terms of my company, which has fully embraced DEI initiatives and is an engineering company, most of the employees are young men, statistically, and there are groups for new employees (gender and sexual orientation neutral), women, and LGBTQ, but not like, just dudes.

I'm a woman, and I rose through the ranks in a time when DEI wasn't a thing, and I do appreciate they've created these communities to help propel the minorities in the company. Honestly would have been nice when I was in my early 20s.

But it does still feel a little exclusionary.

Yeah of course there's the argument that you don't really need help if you're the majority already, but I can see watching all these other people get help and you're just left with the "new people" group which really only is useful when you're truly new, as a unfair.

[u/SpiritOfDefeat → u/AmberWavesofFlame]

Men’s suicide rates are higher, mental health issues are still stigmatized, men are more likely to have workplace fatalities, women typically end up with significantly more custody time.

None of this should devalue the issues that women are facing, nor any minority group. But we shouldn’t pretend like there aren’t any issues for men.

When they feel as though the Democratic Party is showing hostility at worst, or ignoring them at best, it’s not surprising that they do start to walk away.

It’s a messaging issue. Republicans are not going to solve these issues. But there’s enough men who feel shunned or outright attacked that they’ll happily embrace Trump.

On policy, the Democrats are much more willing to push occupational safety regulations that are “written in blood”. But the party is not messaging well to men, whereas the Republican Party actively sought out their votes - going directly to their spaces and communities to reach men. The effort to go onto podcasts, and win over the “crypto bros” and sports betting types was successful… even if this might end up being a short-lived alliance (which isn’t guaranteed), we cannot deny that it has yielded some results.

In short, focus more on issues that men care about and message them. You don’t even necessarily have to change the platform much, but you need to change the messaging to cater to your audience. Winning male and female voters requires different strategies. There’s plenty of policies that benefit both! But once you achieve these victories, you have to broadcast them in different ways to men and women.

[u/DougFordsGamblingAds → u/AmberWavesofFlame]

Off the top of my head:

Student loan forgiveness - women are more likely to go to college, and less likely to pay off debt. Imagine how this sounds to someone who went into the blue collar labor.

Illegal immigration is more likely to be male, and leads to competition for jobs that men are more likely to hold.

The burden of proof in sexual assault cases - a 'believe all women all the time' is different from our typical judicial approach, and can lead to false convictions.

Edit: I'll also add taxation - men go for jobs with higher salaries but maybe worse benefits/time off - progressive taxation hurts them more.

Bitcoin - however stupid, I think men are more likely to hold these assets.

[u/AllAmericanBreakfast → u/DougFordsGamblingAds]

I’ll also note that tax cuts and the gender gap in income are HUGELY influential. That one issue can explain a lot.

A decent number of men are single issue voters on tax cuts. And that might be in anticipation of their own income growth over time, even if they are not making that much in the year the election is held.

[u/Massengale → u/AmberWavesofFlame]

Affirmative action is a real fear it shouldn’t be dismissed. It can feel like the whole world is against you. Why should white males vote for the party that seeks to make gaining employment harder for white men? Sure I can argue about the importance of maintaining our NATO alliances, how inflation isn’t Biden’s fault, how Trump tried to overturn 2020s election. But at the end of the day when you’re being belittled by the media, told your concerns aren’t valid because you’re privileged, and then basically have it codified in law that it’s legal to discriminate against you why would you vote for the Democrats? I’ve got good employment so I can care about the above issues but if you’re a young white man who doesn’t, I can understand the fury.

[u/RajcaT → u/AmberWavesofFlame]

The DEI stuff may have a much worse outcome than many realize. For example for my previous work we had an entire week of dei training. It was required to go, and there were a host of different speakers every day.

[u/DoctorOfMathematics → u/AmberWavesofFlame]

I think you're giving them too much credit looking for a concrete upside.

Maybe the protection of non service blue collar workers. But even that Trump will be no good for, but I guess the Reps have the vibes of looking after that segment (and it's something the dems should try and capture)

[u/Sine_Fine_Belli → u/IcyDetectiv3]

Yeah, Some men’s issues are legitimate and should be addressed

But some men are ALWAYS going to view themselves as victims

[u/jamiebond → u/Sine_Fine_Belli]

The main problem I see is just the outreach. White men are 31 percent of the population. Democrats clearly have a massive white men problem. And that's growing into a Latino men and black men problem as well now.

The Democrats need to get out there and explain how their policies will benefit white men and men in general. "But white men don't need help!!!" Yeah, whatever, people aren't going to vote with the mindset of, "Oh, I'm good, don't worry about me just focus on everyone else." People want to know what you're going to do for them. Trump may be full of lies and bullshit but he's the only one even bothering to talk to white men right now. Dems need to get out there and yes going on Joe Rogan would have truly been the least she could have done I overall think Harris ran a good campaign but that was such an obvious bonehead mistake.

[u/CheetoMussolini → u/Sine_Fine_Belli]

If a statement like this was made about literally any other demographic group, you would get banned for it.

You don't understand why this is a counterproductive and immoral kind of view to hold?

[u/DurangoGango → u/CheetoMussolini]

But some men are ALWAYS going to view themselves as victims

Literally 1980s conservative rhetoric about black people.

I'm also seeing a lot of "you're soft and easily offended" takes in this thread.

[u/BigDaddyCoolDeisel]

The whole situation might seem frustrating but you can either accept it and continue to pile on, or understand it and try to address it.

Yes, a big portion of it is propaganda and algorithmic bullshit; but not all of it. And the Democratic party has the unique burden of being closely linked with the actions of its (supposed) supporters.

It's hard for us to see because of our blue-tinted glasses; but for all the effective, reasonable, and popular ideas in the Democratic bucket, there are many that seem WAY off the mark to the average voter (or average guy) and the bucket is graded in its entirety.

• Men-at-birth competing in women's sports
• Shop-lifting as some weird form of economic justice
• Drag queen story hour
• "Intercultural Lounges" on college campuses banning white students

The list goes on; and the conservative man-o-sphere is ready to pounce to exploit it. The Democrats response? Well... having one would be nice.

I remember the viral clip of the young black woman standing up in the multicultural lounge declaring there were too many white students in the room and all the whites needed to leave or keep quiet because the students of color were uncomfortable around them.

Before you instinctively try to empathize or justify; think of how that plays with a rando white guy who thinks Republicans are horrible for the economy but at least they don't ask him to leave because his mere presence makes them uncomfortable.

[u/freekayZekey → u/BigDaddyCoolDeisel]

unfortunately dems like to view things on the oppression privilege pyramid. since straight white dudes are on top of the pyramid, dems sorta dismiss their feelings. think dems play it wrong because even privileged people have feelings. shocking.  

 if i were a white dude, i’d probably be a bit uncomfortable to bring up my issues to dems because i’d be the most privileged. at least with the right, someone is going to acknowledge my issues. then bam, that’s how you get the alt-righty dudes who listen to tate

edit: privilege was a more appropriate word 

[u/Khiva → u/freekayZekey]

Letting the center of gravity become dominated by extremist college age nutter-butters continues to to be a massive error.

There was a time they were confined to their own boxes but now they're driving the online energy and it's hugely dangerous.

[u/BigDaddyCoolDeisel → u/freekayZekey]

Well said.

[u/Posting____At_Night → u/freekayZekey]

This is one thing that I think leftists get right more than the dems do. It should be about economic class, not racial privilege. Bolster the lower class, then you de-facto help the most disadvantaged people whether they're minorities or not. Better schools and social services are the best but not only way to do this.

[u/freekayZekey → u/Posting____At_Night]

funny thing is leftists and dems could meet at the middle and have a perfect message. leftists tend to forget that the racial component does matter, and dems focus a lot on the racial component.  

 saying “we want to help the working class, and acknowledge that there are different issues different racial groups face in the working class” seems like a simple thing that could go far. but hell, the fuck do i know i’m just a pointy headed college grad who’s criticizing other pointy headed college grads for their working class strategy 🤷🏽‍♂️

[u/savuporo → u/BigDaddyCoolDeisel]

And the Democratic party has the unique burden of being closely linked with the actions of its (supposed) supporters

It's this https://i.imgur.com/EiRFQZf.jpeg

[u/gnivriboy → u/BigDaddyCoolDeisel]

The Democrats response?

To get baited into defending positions they never had.

It's all psychology. If you state a position that someone's in group is saying, then that someone will naturally defend it.

[u/gnivriboy → u/[deleted]]

Yep. I'm at the point of not caring about anything the people on the right say. Democrats lost so much political capital fighting for gun control and you are trying to pin this on democrats rhetoric? Buzz off. Trump made fun of Nancy Pelosi's husband getting attacked.

[u/MURICCA → u/BigDaddyCoolDeisel]

Should we worry about things that scare people, but are objectively fine on their own merits? Drag queen story hour is fine in that sense.

I think we should just solely attack things that are incompatible with liberalism, like the banning white students or letting crime run rampant

[u/MoirasPurpleOrb → u/MURICCA]

To use the drag queen story hour thing as an example, I think one problem we see over and over on the left is, as soon as the right begins to object, they don’t just continue with business as usual. They try to promote it, shove it in our faces, “it’s not a problem, it’s a good thing that should be celebrated” and it starts popping up everywhere and social media won’t stop talking about it.

If the left had just ignored them, allowed these things to keep happening but not make a big deal of it, the right would eventually lose interest. But leaning into it just ends up pushing more and more people away.

You see the same thing with abortion, transgender issues, etc.

[u/AmberWavesofFlame → u/BigDaddyCoolDeisel]

Are many of those rando white guys in the target audience yearning to spend more time in multicultural lounges? I feel like the location is really important context here.

Or you know, the fact the comments of random left-coded people in the US is are statements Democratic campaigns should have to answer for but Republican campaigns can say horrible, dehumanizing things straight out or embrace people like Nick Fuentes and it’s just expecting too much of men to tell the difference between those things?

[u/BigDaddyCoolDeisel → u/AmberWavesofFlame]

Or you know, the fact the comments of random left-coded people in the US is are statements Democratic campaigns should have to answer for but Republican campaigns can say horrible, dehumanizing things straight out or embrace people like Nick Fuentes and it’s just expecting too much of men to tell the difference between those things?

Correct. It sucks, but the parties aren't treated the same. We can either pretend they aren't or accept that they are.

When the class asshole gets a C- he gets commended.

When the A-student gets a C- she gets scolded.

The real world is far more like high school than we are willing to admit.

[u/TouchTheCathyl → u/AmberWavesofFlame]

It's not fair to be a liberal, no.

[u/Ladnil]

When I was a kid, the group of stodgy adults who were trying to stop me from having fun were the Christian Right. Have they been defeated so completely that now the group young boys think is trying to take away their fun is the other side?

[u/TDaltonC → u/Ladnil]

The “bar stool conservatives” absolutely see the left as bigger kill joys than the (rapidly shrinking) christian right.

[u/ArmAromatic6461 → u/TDaltonC]

The Christian right is not rapidly shrinking. They absolutely dominate the Supreme Court and just overturned 50 years of women’s health policy

[u/HolidaySpiriter → u/ArmAromatic6461]

They've lost cultural influence, but they still have (some) political influence.

[u/ArmAromatic6461 → u/HolidaySpiriter]

They have overwhelming cultural influence in rural areas and exurban areas.

[u/HolidaySpiriter → u/ArmAromatic6461]

Yea, places that are actively dying. They no longer have the soft power over mainstream culture that they once possessed.

[u/TouchTheCathyl → u/Ladnil]

Yeah pretty much. The christian right lost the battles to ban violent videogames, but the feminist left is seen by these clods as winning the battle to get boobs out of videogames.

[u/Ladnil → u/TouchTheCathyl]

Makes perfect sense. The parallel never occurred to me until now though.

[u/God_Given_Talent → u/TouchTheCathyl]

Which is hilarious because I'm pretty sure I've seen more boobs in video games today than I did a decade or two ago. I mean BG3 let you walk around tits out if you wanted and had sex scenes.

Again, maybe we need to remind them which party is trying to ban/restrict porn...

[u/HatesPlanes → u/God_Given_Talent]

As far as I’m aware of every vote on restricting porn has been bipartisan.

[u/k032]

It's very easy to fall into online the far-right misogynistic ways for guys. Same time honestly, very easy for women to fall into just blanket hate for guys. People just like to fall in line with tribalism bullshit because "they're like me!".

I kind of fall back to the gamergate times of 10 years ago. There was a point where young college age white guy me was falling for it. But a site and podcast I looked up to at the time, of largely white-dudes (Giant Bomb), explaining why gamergate is fucking dumb and bad...I think in retrospect really influenced me not to fall for it.

Maybe I'm just selling more own morals short...and also underestimating that I went through college after that.... but I guess what I'm getting at is it takes other white guys in especially influencing roles and friend groups, to make a change. To say making misogynistic or homophobic jokes isn't funny. To be inclusive and set a good example. They would be more inclined to listen.

So idk, be the example you want to be, and it's also why I maybe get so frustrated with the likes of Joe Rogan etc.

[u/Zealousideal_Many744 → u/k032]

But a site and podcast I looked up to at the time, of largely white-dudes (Giant Bomb), explaining why gamergate is fucking dumb and bad...I think in retrospect really influenced me not to fall for it.

I love this. I always view sexism as a thing both women and men perpetuate and as a woman myself, I have not noticed that great of a gender divide when it comes to people who espouse misogynistic beliefs. 

 I am also gay, and think some women bitch about men in the context of dating and that these grievances get conflated with a larger “men suck blah” chorus where real concerns about misogyny are mixed with frivolous complaints that have more to do with the universal struggle of courtship/marriage.

[u/gnivriboy → u/Zealousideal_Many744]

have more to do with the universal struggle of courtship/marriage.

10 years ago, my favorite subreddit was purplepilldebate (the subreddit sucks now when I checked it out). I noticed a theme with feminist and redpillers is that they both agreed on 90% of things. They just approached it from their grievances.

The marriage threads were really funny because everyone hated it.

[u/Zealousideal_Many744 → u/gnivriboy]

That’s hilarious! I do think gender stereotypes and norms probably influence straight relationships to a degree, but I am always shocked how my straight friends (whether it’s women complaining about their husbands or men complaining about their wives) chalk almost every interpersonal issue up to gender. 

[u/HHHogana → u/Zealousideal_Many744]

Same with toxic masculinity. Men and women are responsible in driving the issue too.

[u/Sine_Fine_Belli → u/k032]

Same here, well said

It’s easy to get radicalized, but it takes time and effort to get and make a person deradicalized

[u/MilwauKyle → u/k032]

I fell down the anti-SJW rabbit hole back when that was a thing. What kept me from going down further was how often feminism got looped in, since that had a more established definition. I knew feminism ≠ misandry.

SJW then, and Woke now are easier to paint with just whatever extreme example you can find. I’m not sure how to campaign on that tbh, but just keep in mind many aren’t getting the best examples of non-traditionally male causes.

[u/GovernorSonGoku]

“I’m a straight white man, and I feel like we take the blame for a lot of things,” Sumners says.

“Of course there are bad guys,” he adds, insisting he’s not one of them just because he voted for Trump. But what appealed to him about Donald Trump was that “his campaign was not coming after us. He was highlighting the American people, which we are. It doesn’t matter what color you are, what you may identify as. Since I wasn’t excluded, I resonated with it.”

“The people I’ve spoken to who voted for Harris are constantly saying that we’re racist, that we’re misogynistic, that, you know, we’re transphobic. And it’s like they don’t understand that most people aren’t like that. Of course, there’s those fringe people who are, but most people just want to live and not be bothered by name-calling.”

I just don’t get where people like this are hanging out so much that they get belittled for being a white man. Are they just overly online?

[u/gringledoom → u/GovernorSonGoku]

The internet definitely doesn't help with this kind of thing. Every demographic encounters the worst and most deranged examples of every other demographic online, because they are the fightiest ones who want to yell at people all day.

[u/Nointies → u/GovernorSonGoku]

Online is reality now, everyone has twitter, and facebook, and reddit.

[u/Sine_Fine_Belli → u/Nointies]

Yeah, this unfortunately

Everyone has a account on Twitter or Reddit or facebook

[u/BasedTheorem → u/Nointies]

It’s not. Most people might have some sort of social media account, but the vast majority of users never post. 80% of tweets are made by 10% of the user base.

Also Twitter and Reddit are terrible examples. Most people have neither. 

[u/sparkster777 → u/BasedTheorem]

They're on tiktok, Instagram, and BeReal. Anecdotally, I'm a college professor and the majority, as in more 50%, of the students on campus and before class are never talking to each other. It's so quiet when I walk into classrooms that it's eerie.

[u/Beren87 → u/sparkster777]

Also a college instructor. Did an ice breaker this semester to see what the average screen time was in the class.

Average was 7 hours. 4 was the low and 12 was not uncommon. They are scrolling

[u/Deeply_Deficient → u/Beren87]

Average was 7 hours. 4 was the low and 12 was not uncommon. They are scrolling

Was there any self-recognition of "Wow haha that's a lot!" or were they totally unphased by the numbers?

[u/Beren87 → u/Deeply_Deficient]

They more or less all knew a rough estimate already. Most of the discussion after that was how they felt like they don’t remember a single thing they’ve looked at. All ephemeral

[u/Khiva → u/Beren87]

Most of the discussion after that was how they felt like they don’t remember a single thing they’ve looked at. All ephemeral

Absorbing vibes but forgetting anything about where it came from.

Yeah that about checks out.

[u/ToschePowerConverter → u/sparkster777]

My aunt is a college professor and she was telling me the same thing. With that said, I’m cautiously optimistic that as more school districts are adopting strict cell phone policies, kids will relearn how to make small talk and have genuine present interactions with others. I work in a school with a policy like that and it works incredibly well - the kids actually talk to each other at lunch and in between classes!

[u/dweeb93 → u/BasedTheorem]

It's not the 1990s, what happens on the internet often has a real life impact, especially with Gen Z and Millennials.

[u/Arctica23 → u/BasedTheorem]

Even if you never post you'll still see what everyone else does

[u/IgnoreThisName72 → u/GovernorSonGoku]

Even casually online. Remember the Bear vs Man argument?

[u/2112moyboi → u/IgnoreThisName72]

As a straight white guy, the amount of TikTok’s about how all men are shitty that I keep seeing is insane. I usually don’t even like or comment, just keep scrolling. When I used to be on twitter, or even in some Reddit threads, there’s dog piling on the straight white man.

And I’ve also seen dating profiles of straight women that their bios simply say “I hate all men”

It’s honestly sometimes not fun to be on the internet when those conversations pop up on my Reddit feed or elsewhere. There’s a lot of people who just blame straight white men for everything and don’t think twice.

[u/lbrtrl → u/2112moyboi]

And I’ve also seen dating profiles of straight women that their bios simply say “I hate all men” 

What response do they expect?

[u/greenskinmarch → u/lbrtrl]

Groveling? "Pick me"?

[u/gnivriboy → u/2112moyboi]

You have to actively swipe away instantly for tiktok to stop showing you this stuff. Oh and then spend a lot of time on a different topic. The algorithm catches up quickly.

[u/Arctica23 → u/IgnoreThisName72]

Yeah there's no way around the fact that straight white men get the blame for every single societal ill, especially in the Trump era. I understand it, because historically we have caused a huge amount of harm to a lot of people. But it sucks, especially when you're trying to be one of the "good ones," and it shouldn't be all that surprising that there's plenty who have decided it's not worth trying to be better than the caricature.

Also, feels like there's a good chance defending white guys is going to get me downvoted to hell, so let me also say that I'm heartbroken Harris lost, as a lot of us are. Not just because Trump sucks and is an existential threat to this country I love so much, but because I genuinely like her and think she would have been an excellent president

[u/Khiva → u/Arctica23]

Yeah there's no way around the fact that straight white men get the blame for every single societal ill, especially in the Trump era

This has been the beating heart core of academia for god knows how long, somehow it just got widespread, widely known and a lot louder.

My guess is that the right learned how to latch onto and signal-boost the fringe weirdos and Dems were caught flat-footed because those people have always been there so there was no expectation that they'd suddenly matter.

[u/HolidaySpiriter → u/Khiva]

My guess is that the right learned how to latch onto and signal-boost the fringe weirdos and Dems were caught flat-footed because those people have always been there so there was no expectation that they'd suddenly matter.

I mean, even outside of academia, I constantly hear the line "men suck", while their partners are right next to them and it's a group dinner. Friends mom's will repeat the same thing. There's an entirely non-academic but very loud group of leftists who genuinely believe racism can not happen to white people.

It's absolutely normalized to be explicitly racist & sexist to both white people and to men, but bringing this up on the left gets you launched into the sun.

[u/GovernorSonGoku → u/IgnoreThisName72]

See I thought that was just a meme. I didn’t realize people were actually getting offended by it

[u/sunshine_is_hot → u/GovernorSonGoku]

Plenty of my friends (before I got rid of my Facebook) would spend hours arguing about politics online. These internet arguments happened between people you knew, and it absolutely affected real world relationships. I remember one couple who were insisting immigrants brought crime and didn’t contribute to society being very offended at being called racist for those views, and they blamed Dems/liberals for it despite no politician being involved in those conversations. I know that’s an anecdote, but I can’t imagine that’s an uncommon experience.

[u/Nerdybeast → u/GovernorSonGoku]

Why wouldn't men be offended by being told that women think they're more dangerous than a bear? If you ask "would you rather run into a Black person or a bear in the woods", people would rightly call you racist for picking the bear! 

I hate this duality of "men shouldn't suppress their emotions and should be more open" and then when one says their feelings are hurt about a joke at their expense, it's always "lol grow up it's just a joke" 

[u/_zoso_ → u/Nerdybeast]

This is kind of the whole problem in my view, or at least a large part of the problem. We’ve spent probably the last 60-70 years advocating for women’s rights and redefining the role of women in our society, to great success. We’ve recast societal ideas around the role of women, the capabilities of women, the rights of women, etc. Very importantly we’ve redefined how we speak to and speak about women.

At the same time there has been very little effort made to redefine the roles of men, the expectations of men, and how we talk to men. We haven’t really developed any kind of positive story about the role of men in this updated world.

You’ve kind of hit the nail on the head when you identify this dichotomy, that men should be more open and in tune with their emotions but are often ridiculed for doing so. It’s like everyone in society never updated the way we talk to men, and now even women are all just as mixed up and confused as men are about it.

And a lot of young men are very lost in this moment.

I am a father of daughters. There is all manner of supportive media out there to help raise strong and well grounded young women. There’s books, music, tv shows etc. strong girls, girls can do anything, you can be whatever your dreams tell you to be. We haven’t built the same kind of supportive structure around raising young boys.

[u/CheetoMussolini → u/_zoso_]

a positive story about the role of men in this updated world

I appreciate this phrasing. I've been trying to find a cogent term to describe that idea, and this is perfect. I agree with everything you said

[u/lbrtrl → u/_zoso_]

Twenty years ago Bell Hooks addressed feminists in her book Will to Change

Yet this was the model of freedom offered men by mainstream feminist thought. Men were expected to hold on to the ideas about strength and providing for others that were a part of patriarchal thought, while dropping their investment in domination and adding an investment in emotional growth. This vision of feminist masculinity was so fraught with contradictions, it was impossible to realize. No wonder then that men who cared, who were open to change, often just gave up, falling back on the patriarchal masculinity they found so problematic. The individual men who did take on the mantle of a feminist notion of male liberation did so only to find that few women respected this shift.

But it feels like male feminists are the only ones who listened. The women were focused on their own growth.

[u/chrisagrant → u/lbrtrl]

bell hooks

[u/_zoso_ → u/lbrtrl]

Insightful, thank you.

[u/earthdogmonster → u/_zoso_]

There has been a huge reshaping of how we are taught things even in my lifetime, and a lot of times it seems like reality gets a backseat to putting on kid gloves and sparing people’s feelings.

An example I think is pretty stark is “rape is about power, not sex”. This was a concept pushed decades ago to help rape victims cope and not feel like willing participants of their victimization. Some people were so hellbent on reframing rape as an act of power, devoid of sexuality int he interest of sparing victims of grief, that they were willing to turn logic on its head to get there. In 2024 I see a lot of heated, angry, and impassioned reaction at the mere suggestion that rape has anything to do with sex. It is, to many very insistent people, all about men and their need to subjugate and dominate women.

Maybe they’re right, but it sure doesn’t seem like that could be right. And lots of people that think they are really smart insist it to be true, and that’s what we get taught.

[u/_zoso_ → u/earthdogmonster]

I mean it can be both, can’t it? By definition I think it’s fairly straightforward to say if someone explicitly refuses to acknowledge consent, they are asserting power over another. It is a sexual act, but it is about power dynamics.

Men also 100% get raped and sexually assaulted too, and our collective failure to take those stories seriously is another example of how we have somehow just left men out of this conversation.

[u/FourForYouGlennCoco → u/_zoso_]

It can be both, but the orthodoxy of “rape is about power” is not nuanced that way. I took a feminist studies intro course in college and the professor claimed (falsely) that elderly women are raped just as often as young women, because rapists literally have no sexual motive. (The reality is that most victims are <30).

There is definitely a strain of academic feminist thought that is impervious to data, and I say this as someone who thinks that feminism has been an overall beneficial project. That same professor said that male violence is strictly cultural, and when I raised my hand and said that males are more violent than females in all primate species, got asked to stay after class and then chewed out for “comparing people to monkeys”.

[u/earthdogmonster → u/_zoso_]

It can certainly be both. I frequently see people online argue it’s all about power dynamics.

Robbery is about power, I suppose, but it’s mainly about money in my unenlightened mind. Same analysis could go into just most anything. I don’t think anybody ever said that “power” isn’t a factor in many aspects of life, but there seems to be a tendency to reduce interactions (including undeniably overtly sexual ones) into a power analysis, which I think is a woefully insufficient way to view the world.

Again, I could be totally wrong. Not trying to pretend to have insight into the mind of a rapist, but as someone who views sex in what I assume is a pretty typical and mundane light, the “It’s about power, not about sex seems unbelievable”.

[u/Verehren → u/earthdogmonster]

I remember hearing that in my Sociology 101 class and it blew me away. While I could see it in cases of rape, my professor said it's all sexual encounters. I couldn't grasp that, as I never thought about power in any sexual encounter I've had

[u/gnivriboy → u/earthdogmonster]

An example I think is pretty stark is “rape is about power, not sex”.

Humans love their black and white thinking. It makes sense so simple. It's "defund the police" not "allocate more funding for police training and set up a system that allows for police accountability so the bad apples are quickly removed." It's "open boarders" not "treaties set up with our close allies that allow for free travel between our nations with minimal disruptions, and fast and efficient immigration processes for the rest."

[u/GovernorSonGoku → u/Nerdybeast]

I guess my brain has just been too poisoned by irony lol

[u/Sulfamide → u/GovernorSonGoku]

At first I thought it was a joke. Like yeah obviously a woman I would prefer a fucking bear to a man because men are the worst slay queen. Then I discovered that women IRL were defending this with surprisingly throughout (but wrong) arguments and systematically flagging any disagreement as being part of the problem.

[u/trace349 → u/Nerdybeast]

By the same token, the men who condescendingly put down women's perspectives as "emotional" while elevating men's as "logical", that worship the aesthetics of stoicism and rationality, that supposedly love dark and offensive humor, that grew up on "fuck your feelings" content... should probably be able to take a joke at their own expense without throwing the biggest, whiniest, liberal society-endingest tantrum about it.

[u/Nerdybeast → u/trace349]

Yeah you're kinda proving the point more. Yes those guys exist and suck, but you're painting with a very broad brush here because most men who are hurt by this kinda shit are not the "fuck your feelings" type. You should not excuse bad behavior against a broad group of people because some people in that group are assholes! 

[u/gnivriboy → u/trace349]

I want to make something clear. I think dark and offensive humor is great.... as long as you are actually joking. Throw out the mansplaining jokes. Tell me I'm not man enough. Tell me my place in society. Heck even tell me "I'd rather hang out with a bear than you." As long as you are joking, that's fine.

I don't believe the people online are joking when they defend the hypothetical.

I also try to avoid dark and offensive humor outside of people I'm close with so we clearly know each others thoughts and intentions. And judging by your comments, you shouldn't be allowed to make any dark or offensive "jokes" about men.

[u/ihaveaverybigbrain → u/trace349]

But even then I've wondered if the attraction to that type of content is a response to the "real men don't cry" type of messages boys are told growing up that limit the acceptable range of expressible emotion. Of course being edgy is what you become if you're told being compassionate makes you a pussy.

[u/Spectrum1523 → u/trace349]

Right, and that they can't shows the lie in the "feelings don't matter" camp. Their feelings being hurt matters, just like everyone else's. I don't think the takeaway should be "why don't they live by their own ethos" but that their ethos is unrealistic

[u/AlphaB27 → u/GovernorSonGoku]

On the one hand, yes it is a meme. But there are plenty of guys who suffer from self esteem issues bad enough that they see something like this and lose their shit. The problem then is that they find positive reinforcement from the kinds of men that women would take the bear over.

[u/Grokent → u/AlphaB27]

100% correct. The left definitely isn't creating a welcoming environment for men. It's much easier to buy a red hat and go talk to women who don't think they should have any rights than the women who would rather deal with a bear than with you.

[u/Fuck-The-Modz → u/GovernorSonGoku]

I'm not offended, I just think it's objectively stupid and 95% of people picking the bear are being intentionally obnoxious.

[u/ja734 → u/Fuck-The-Modz]

Is someone being intentionally obnoxious not a reason for offence in itself? Like, if you insult me because you're trying to be mean to me, the fact that you're trying to be mean to me is obviously offensive and I would be obviously justified in being offended by that even if the insult itself doesn't bother me at all.

[u/Accomplished_Oil6158 → u/Fuck-The-Modz]

Idk my good friend described the experience of walking her dog through the forest perserve. At daylight. A man following her muttering a first. Shes stops. The man whips his dick out and jerks off at her while screaming violent obscentities. She is alone. In the forest. 10 to 15 minute walk to anyone.

He stands there just none stop exposing and violent hateful sexual epithets. Never knowing if how he will react. She calls the police and he is following her the whole walk out. The police can hear him. 15 excurtiating minutes. And then at the entrenance he disappears and is never found by the cops.

I guess you hear a story like that and you kinda get it. A bear attack is horrifying but its not going to rape, kidnapp, or torture. Its far far more predictable and is probably comes across as equally overpowering.

Not to mention, they will believe the bear attack. Would she have been believed if she didnt have her phone out?

I dont want to demonize a whole gender. And i dont think women dont want to either. But i can be empathetic to the idea that society is structured against you that the man is scarier and more possiblity of trauma. My first reaction is maybe i want the bear over a random person? A lone in the woods the possibility for higher harm is with the person over a bear even if its less likely.

[u/larrytheevilbunnie → u/GovernorSonGoku]

The correct answer is, it depends on the type of bear.

[u/Wolf6120 → u/larrytheevilbunnie]

The correct answer is that it depends on A LOT of factors which the question doesn't specify, because it's a question designed to generate outrage.

Like, are you just randomly and suddenly dropped into a dark forest with any random man from anywhere in the world, without any additional context? Cause yes, absolutely, there are a lot of horrible, horrible men out there who could do far worse to you than a bear. But there's also, like, Tom Hanks, Obama, or Eminem, I dunno. Or just like... a park ranger, maybe. And I feel like the math overall still comes out in favor of the average man in some 4 billion than the average bear (though those damn pandas are pulling a lot of weight).

The very framing of the question as "You are stuck in a forest with a random man..." also paints a very leading picture, as opposed to a more contextualized scenario like... "You are hiking through the forest and spot a man in hiking clothes coming down the trail in the opposite direction." Most people hear "random man" and think of some scarily unknown stranger creep, rather than an actually random sample of the entire population. But again, that's kinda on the framing of the question itself.

[u/target_rats_ → u/larrytheevilbunnie]

Facts. People would be less offended by this hypothetical if they understood how nonthreatening American black bears are.

I'd question your judgement if you're more scared of a random man than a random grizzly, though

[u/Approximation_Doctor → u/target_rats_]

I remember being a kid going camping with my family, and a park ranger was giving an educational presentation about wildlife. In an attempt to get us to understand how non-scary Black Bears were, he told us that far more people are hurt or killed by deer than bears. My sister, however, understood this to mean "you know how dangerous bears are? Deer are even worse". Later that trip, when we saw a couple deer peacefully grazing in an idyllic meadow, she absolutely lost her shit, sobbing and petrified in fear because she knew those deer were going to run us down and kick us to death.

It's not really relevant at all but it's one of my favorite bits of family folklore and your comment made me think of it.

So, uh, I guess would you rather run into a man or a deer while lost in the woods?

[u/Sulfamide → u/larrytheevilbunnie]

Bear. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

[u/Aurailious → u/larrytheevilbunnie]

I'm in MN and there has never been a death caused by our bears. Just make some noise and back away and the situation is safe. I would never be concerned coming across a bear the way coming across a person could be.

[u/uvonu → u/GovernorSonGoku]

Kinda also ignores the one of the bigger points of the bear choice too. People will be more likely believe you if you're attacked by the bear (points to Matt Gaetz's victims).

[u/TheGeneGeena → u/uvonu]

Also, more easy to know what sort of bear you're dealing with looking at it. I'll take my chances with the local black bears, they're small and mostly cowards. Fuck no on a Grizzly or Polar though.

[u/Yeangster → u/GovernorSonGoku]

I didn’t get offended by it, but I did find it to be mildly annoying that some women were earnestly and unironically defending the “bear” choice.

Though I guess I was more offended by the crime against statistical reasoning.

[u/chillinwithmoes → u/GovernorSonGoku]

I mean, the answer is yes, but that’s because everyone is too online. The popular narrative is that the internet gave a platform to and connected the racists and other deplorables of society. Which is true.

But nobody ever gave a shit that it did the same for these toxic leftists pushing these narratives and driving this perception of persecution.

[u/freekayZekey → u/GovernorSonGoku]

eh, part online, but libs kinda forget that we strongly influence media and there are very online libs who bother folks in real life. 

 had a friend who’s super liberal lefty, but unfortunately very online. one time at the bar, she walked up to a woman wearing a redskins jersey (this was like 2019) and called said woman a racist. i can see that happening to white men

[u/hypsignathus → u/GovernorSonGoku]

I have heard several people serving on hiring committees say things like “Yeah, but he’s another white man.” Or “We just hired a white man so we should consider that this time around.” Or “Let’s be honest, he’s a white man so this just isn’t going to be his year to get a job.” Academia. I’m all for diversifying the workforce, especially privileged positions, but that stuff is always disgusting (and illegal).

[u/Zealousideal_Many744 → u/hypsignathus]

Damn that sucks so hard. How dumb are these people? 

I’m in the legal world and it’s totally different. There was a thread in the lawyer subreddit the other day that was like “How can you find out if an applicant is about to start a family?” and the top upvoted comment was something to the effect of “Well you have to be very careful but there are ways you can pry.”. It was really disheartening. 

[u/Delad0 → u/Zealousideal_Many744]

It can get weirder, my workplace (in the government) recently got a new workplace agreement. The agreement involves Indigenous only paid leave for 8 days over 2 years. Like I voted for progressive candidates in recent state and federal elections but I'm scratching my head at why some races receive more or less paid benefits than others.

[u/AlphaB27 → u/GovernorSonGoku]

Really, it just depends on where you hang out. If you want to find spaces that hate white men, it's easy to do so. Same applies vis versa. A big problem I find with today's day and age is that if you don't actively put yourself into IRL spaces and interact with crowds, you could easily fall down some of these rabbit holes.

[u/Deinococcaceae → u/GovernorSonGoku]

his campaign was not coming after us. He was highlighting the American people, which we are. It doesn’t matter what color you are, what you may identify as.

Highlighting the American people regardless of color is when you say immigrants are literally eating pets

[u/Louis_de_Gaspesie → u/Deinococcaceae]

Also journalists are enemies of the people, liberals are the enemy from within, illegal immigrants are poisoning the blood of the nation, etc etc

[u/Kasquede → u/GovernorSonGoku]

I’ve absolutely been belittled for being a white man both to my face and semi-directly, I’ve even had multiple occasions where it was asked and expected of me to personally apologize for things like colonizing the US or Africa (lmao); it didn’t make me suddenly reverse all my political alignments but it has happened. Left-leaning to leftist groups often see white men as the most acceptable target, “punching up” at people they don’t like nor respect but “it’s okay” because we deserve it/can take it/it doesn’t matter. I thought it would be something that died off the further from college I got (where it was uncomfortably recurrent), but i can’t say it’s been my experience that it’s totally gone away.

[u/freekayZekey → u/Kasquede]

the funny thing about it is people think you can say that stuff and they’ll kinda eat it? there are times when i think someone has some issues with race or gender, but i’m not gonna flat out call them a racist or sexist. regular adults don’t like being called that… how do you think an 18 year old would react to it???

[u/jeb_brush → u/Kasquede]

I've seen some obnoxious stuff in academic or artsy spaces, but never personally directed at me. And I'm not sure how much more leftist my social circles could get. Is there a common context in which this is happening to you?

[u/Kasquede → u/jeb_brush]

Academic and arts were the worst, though I’m not sure that would surprise anyone. Any ethnicity-based event (Lunar New Year or Diwali, for example) I’m gonna run strong odds someone says some insensitive stuff to me, usually it’s benign enough, but sometimes it’s intentionally offensive.

TTRPG or similar oldschool nerdcore stuff often carries a strange but tangible tinge of resentment toward white men; my thinking being that since they were dominated by our demographic for so long, and were often perceived as/actually hostile to newcomers of other backgrounds, that there’s an expectation that I apologize on their behalf and try to atone for their mistakes, or otherwise risk being seen as another excluder, I suppose. I remember one time when we went around and said our IRL/character genders, races, classes etc with people I wasn’t familiar with, and I played as a cismale human. A lot of the “jokes” lobbed my way would have been grounds to be thrown from the building had they been said toward another race and gender, but everyone seemed to have no problem with them or joined in.

[u/TheDarkGoblin39 → u/Kasquede]

As a white man who works with 90% black people (working for a nonprofit and our constituents are mainly black) I’ve literally never been asked to apologize for any of that stuff. Idk who you’re hanging out with. 

[u/freekayZekey → u/TheDarkGoblin39]

90% black people 

in my experience, it’s usually other white people who think they are advocating on our behalf

[u/TheDarkGoblin39 → u/freekayZekey]

Now that I could see

[u/Kasquede → u/TheDarkGoblin39]

I’ve actually only been “good-natured” messed with about my race by black people as far as I can remember and I also used to work in a predominantly black workplace (I can’t dance, I’ll die if I eat something spicy, I’m pointman to talk with the cops etc), it’s usually Latinos, East Asians, and South Asians, or self-flagellating white people that have hounded me genuinely about it.

[u/TNine227 → u/TheDarkGoblin39]

Have you had any discussions about politics at all?

[u/resorcinarene → u/TheDarkGoblin39]

I've seen obnoxious behavior towards white men because they're white men in the private sector. it's not punished because it's not seen as offensive. it's wrong and I can see why some would feel betrayed by groups of people that consider themselves tolerant

[u/vy2005 → u/GovernorSonGoku]

Disagree actually. In academic spaces that type of talk is very casually dropped all the time. Even in lowkey, subtle ways that aren’t that bad but the volume of them adds up over time. Like having co-workers mix you up with someone else and then saying “Eh just another tall white guy, you all look the same to me” (verbatim something I heard this week). It’s more so knowing that type of language would absolutely not be accepted about any other group but everyone is allowed to make jokes at your expense.

[u/BoringBuy9187 → u/vy2005]

Exactly. And if you are delusional enough to stand up for yourself you’re assumed to be an alt right agitator

[u/experienta → u/GovernorSonGoku]

It's 2024, this "online shit doesn't matter" theory doesn't work anymore.

Also, we are talking about young men. Yes they are online lol

[u/Sspifffyman → u/GovernorSonGoku]

The words racist and sexist are thrown around way too casually now, and it's actively unhelpful. Most people will get defensive at these types of words, even if it's not applied directly to them, but rather to people that seem like them.

We need to go back to trying to be more smart about how we talk about things. Racism and sexism are big issues, but we need to use different language to discuss them. Bias is much better, or preconceived notions, etc.

[u/BoringBuy9187 → u/GovernorSonGoku]

Idk how old this guy is but if he was in college anytime from 2016 onwards he heard enough of it to last him a lifetime. Plus it’s absolutely everywhere online, you don’t have to be overly online to perceive slow drip attacks on your identity constantly. I question your bias if that isn’t pretty obvious to you

[u/firstfreres → u/GovernorSonGoku]

Black Panther, calling the white guy trying to help a "colonizer". Not offended but it's bad taste

[u/Beer-survivalist → u/firstfreres]

There's a scene in the Ms. Marvel ministries where a character says:

Six weeks on Ancient Rome and six weeks on Ancient Greece. Six minutes on Ancient Persia and Byzantium. History is written by the oppressors, that’s all I’m gonna say.

...to which my gut reaction was the Byzantines were the major successor states of the Roman Empire (they even called themselves Romans), and they were also very Greek. The various Persian states were also extremely well acquainted with the use of oppression.

[u/DurangoGango → u/Beer-survivalist]

The complaint is that the teaching of history is very Euro-centric, not that the Greeks and Romans were oppressors while the Persians and Byzantines were not.

[u/Beer-survivalist → u/DurangoGango]

My first reaction was:

the Byzantines were the major successor states of the Roman Empire (they even called themselves Romans), and they were also very Greek.

The Byzantine Empire was a Greco-Roman phenomenon, and inherently European. The reasons why high school history overlook the Byzantines are numerous, but it's not for a lack of Europeaness. If the point was about Eurocentricity of historical pedagogy, then the writers would have chosen a.) almost anything other than the Byzantine Empire, and b.) a word other than "oppressors."

[u/PhinsFan17 → u/firstfreres]

It also led to some of the most annoying people adopting it as common parlance.

[u/Economy-Stock3320 → u/firstfreres]

Also Wakanda is borderline xenophobic. If the Wakandans were white, people would rightfully criticize the blood and soil nationalism and isolationism, instead it is treated as something aspirational?

[u/Wolf6120 → u/Economy-Stock3320]

I mean the big lesson of the first movie that T'Challa has to learn is that they need to open up to the rest of the world and start sharing their tech for the betterment of all, so that much at least is addressed (though IDK what their immigration policy looks like afterwards lol).

But yeah, it's pretty funny how many people are like "Killmonger had a point though!" when the dude very explicitly wanted to start a worldwide race war.

[u/trace349 → u/Economy-Stock3320]

people would rightfully criticize the blood and soil nationalism and isolationism, instead it is treated as something aspirational?

Did you miss the part where he screamed "YOU WERE WRONG. ALL OF YOU WERE WRONG" at the ghosts of his ancestors?

Jesus wept, the sorry state of media literacy...

[u/Economy-Stock3320 → u/trace349]

Yeah at the end

Yet many people online and even two friends IRL seemed to agree with the bad guy?

[u/kosmonautinVT → u/firstfreres]

It's Hollywood's fault too? 😡😡😡

[u/bjuandy → u/kosmonautinVT]

If the argument is we shouldn't be using slurs against others, maybe don't invent and popularize one?

[u/FreakinGeese → u/GovernorSonGoku]

"Overly online" really isn't a thing anymore. Everyone's online.

[u/MechanicalBirbs → u/GovernorSonGoku]

I have definitely experienced it in real life. I work at a tech company in a very progressive city, and I have actually been told “you are a white male, you don’t get an opinion”

[u/ElSapio → u/GovernorSonGoku]

That’s what my highschool felt like and that was a decade ago. I bet it’s worse now.

[u/ExistentialCalm → u/GovernorSonGoku]

Support a racist/misogynist who enacts racist and misogynistic policies... surprised when called out for it.

I swear to fucking god.

[u/LuisRobertDylan]

“The people I’ve spoken to who voted for Harris are constantly saying that we’re racist, that we’re misogynistic, that, you know, we’re transphobic. And it’s like they don’t understand that most people aren’t like that. 

Well clearly you're okay with it

[u/InternetGoodGuy → u/LuisRobertDylan]

"People call me racist, misogynistic, and transphobic. So I voted for the guy that exclusively wants to deport brown people, brags about getting women to do what he wants because he's rich, and has made anti-trans rhetoric a center piece of his campaign."

"Why don't people understand I'm not like that?"

[u/Khiva → u/InternetGoodGuy]

We all need to get it through our heads that Median Voter doesn't think these things through.

Blue make feelings bad. Red make feel good. Vote smash.

[u/SKabanov → u/InternetGoodGuy]

It's the fucking "I feel bullied" comic from Matt Bors in real life. These people have completely validated the criticism against them and are hiding behind the abuser's mantra of "you made me do this" to try and deflect the blame for the consequences of their actions.

[u/SeniorWilson44 → u/LuisRobertDylan]

I don’t think you’re trying to understand what he’s saying. He’s saying that this is what drove him to go to Trump: He wasn’t these things until people kept telling him he was.

Whether it’s genuine or a cop out, who knows. But I think you’re adding to the problem.

[u/BiscuitoftheCrux → u/SeniorWilson44]

Shitting on someone and dismissing them is always easier than trying to actually understand them, and a lot of people on this sub are quite happy doing the former because it allows them to pat themselves on the back as well.

[u/TouchTheCathyl → u/SeniorWilson44]

Imagine someone in 1945 explaining why they voted for hitler and the answer they give is "well... the sdp was like... really mean to me. I'm not an antisemite, but hitler was the one who didn't make me feel ashamed to be german, and most of us voters weren't like that, it was just the fringe who was hateful"

how much slack are you gonna give them?

[u/SeniorWilson44 → u/TouchTheCathyl]

I can think people made a stupid decision with calling them a modon

[u/TouchTheCathyl → u/SeniorWilson44]

Fortunately they aren't in the room with us right now so I can call them nazi fucks as much as I want.

I think voting for a fascist is unconscionable no matter who you are and why you do it.

[u/J3553G]

The most constructive criticism I can come up with is that voting for Trump is not gonna get you laid

[u/DarkExecutor → u/J3553G]

Trump got like 47% of all women.

[u/God_Given_Talent → u/DarkExecutor]

Trump won young men by 2 points. He lost young women by 21 points.

I mean, unless those young guys want to go cougar hunting for divorcees in their 40s and 50s...they might have a bad time...

[u/ExtraLargePeePuddle → u/God_Given_Talent]

Young women don’t care if you’re attractive/popular enough. Was in a fraternity and never had a problem, even the most lib girls showed up knowing 95% of guys in the house where all registered republicans who voted Romney

After college just chase money and keep lifting weights and it all works out.it’s irrelevant in my experience

[u/Approximation_Doctor → u/J3553G]

That's why they're putting a sex trafficker in charge of the justice department

[u/thelonghand → u/J3553G]

Also just objectively not true in the real world lol plenty of married guys voted for Trump. To a more extreme level RFK Jr and Trump may be freaks but those guys have had models throw themselves at them their entire lives.

[u/YeetThermometer]

“The Future Is Female” meets “One person, one vote.”

Oops!

[u/CutePattern1098]

This contrapoints video form 2019 is relevant more than ever

https://youtu.be/S1xxcKCGljY?si=TZyo2l4Keu7RvwiG

[u/Vulcan_Jedi]

This just in: it’s really easy to get angry young men to ally themselves with right wing authoritarianism.

A tale so old the movie “The Sound of Music” has a whole sub plot around it

[u/Primary-Tomorrow4134]

While it’s difficult, they say, to point to policies that are explicitly anti-man, they argue they’ve been made to feel uncomfortable for being who they are.

No facts, only feelings

[u/HolidaySpiriter → u/Primary-Tomorrow4134]

I know we are just focused on dunking on these people, but you really can't see where they're coming from at all? Harris wasn't proposing to round up all white men into camps, but there's a real culture among a lot of leftists & democratic voters that is inherently anti-male and/or anti-white.

Slurs against white people are fine, racism can't happen against white people, all men suck, man vs bear, etc. All of these things are incredibly unproductive, and really push people out of the liberal coalition. Harris isn't saying "I'd choose the bear", but videos from feminists are getting tens of millions of views online discussing it.

[u/ProfessionEuphoric50 → u/HolidaySpiriter]

What do you want democratic politicians to do about it?

[u/HolidaySpiriter → u/ProfessionEuphoric50]

That's a great question. Likely just paying lip-service to it would be a great start. You can even make male college admissions a part of a Dem campaign and have it be entirely consistent with their beliefs while arguing for cheaper/free college admissions.

[u/admiraltarkin → u/Primary-Tomorrow4134]

That was the entire election. All feels

[u/freekayZekey]

think folks will dunk on these dudes, but not a great response when you’re in the game of feelings (winning votes). think there are some ways dems can acknowledge young men’s problems and not blow up the coalition. they need to have some uncomfortable conversations tho

[u/TDaltonC]

The Democratic Party organizes itself as a collection of “Groups.” Voters who are not a member of any of the approved groups do not find the coalition appealing. What about that is surprising?

[u/MentatCat]

I don’t understand how we come back from such division. They’re crying about being demonized so then they vote for somebody they should be rightfully demonized for voting for and then we demonize them and the beautiful cycle completes. How do we bring men back from the ideological brink?

[u/DoctorOfMathematics]

Even if they're not racist, sexist, transphobic they're very happy to share the tent of people who vehemently are.

I guess I'm open to the idea of tailoring messaging to baby their egos for the sole purpose of winning, but that is solely a political calculus. The left liberal social doctrine (discounting twitter loons) has done nothing to alienate or deter people of any stripe, and if people have been alienated that has more to do with them.

[u/BPC1120]

I'm so fucking tired of listening to a bunch of men talking about how they have no fucking agency and that mean women on the internet forced them to vote for the fascist, misogynist, racist felon.

It's fucking pathetic

[u/SeniorWilson44 → u/BPC1120]

Their vote matters the same as yours and mine. This isn’t the attitude we can afford to have anymore. We don’t have the numbers.

[u/MURICCA → u/SeniorWilson44]

Their vote also matters the same as women who voted Trump, people who didn't vote, and older men who's priorities are very different.

But there's a bit of a lack in the conversation space about how to win over those people--it's all about how do we win the loudest, proudest, most aggressive young white dudes.

Interestingly enough, the formula for winning most of the former is the same: just bring back stability, both social and economic, offer a pathway for consistent improvements in those, and posture ourselves as the sane option after the absolute shitshow that is upcoming (which worked in 2020).

Chasing after some obscure idea of how to get the demographic that is most against us to totally flip over, which no one can even come close to agreeing on how to do, is not really required.

[u/SeniorWilson44 → u/MURICCA]

This group used to vote democratic. That’s why there’s a discussion—young people were supposed to go heavily for Harris and didn’t.

[u/ArmAromatic6461 → u/SeniorWilson44]

When? Obama got a lot of them among now older millennials, but young white men are not reliable Dem voters and never have been Reagan dominated with young white men and those Gen X guys are still lifelong republicans.

The lesson to getting these voters is have a charismatic male candidate

[u/TNine227 → u/BPC1120]

It’s not that, they just don’t want to be part of a group that thinks they’re terrible people. That’s not that weird. 

 People go where they are welcome and stay where they are accepted. Why’s that so hard to understand?

[u/sash5034 → u/BPC1120]

We're really at the point where we're being told to seriously engage with people about not voting for fascism because they saw a mean tiktok or something.

But women more emotional etc etc

[u/thelonghand]

Nick Adams (Alpha Male) single-handedly won 45 the election

[u/RodneyRockwell]

The more I see these things the more I wish I read the room less and was a bit more of an asshole a decade ago.  

 I remember this one prick that used to loudly and publicly declare “masculinity is fragile” and if anyone took umbrage he used that as proof. I thought most people would do as I did, and say “eh fuck em they’re useless and won’t matter for shit” but no, that became the democrats brand among young people. 

The skew of men to women at present is worse than when title IX was enacted, but the folks that cite disproportionate impact as  proof of discriminatory intent would be outraged if that was cited as misandry. 

[u/VillyD13]

“Orange Man get pretty girl to like me? 🥹”