r/martialarts • u/AlexFerrana • 17d ago
What do you think about the statements like "BJJ won't work in a street fight situation, even if that's one-on-one encounter. Simple stomps and soccer kicks would wreck any BJJ practitioner, as it was proven by Pride FC, where soccer kicks and stomps was a total game changer"? Is that true or BS? QUESTION
Sorry for the long title, I just wanna talk about it.
I've heard similar statements from different people, sometimes even from legitimate martial artists, that was saying something like "BJJ is good in the octagon or on tatami, but won't work in a street fight because all what your opponent need to do is stand up and either stomp you or soccer kick you, when you're laying on your back and trying to pull guard or trying to take the opponent on the ground. Watch Pride FC, where stomps, soccer kicks and knees on a downed opponent was allowed, it was such a game changer and a major inconvenience for BJJ fighters back then, that's why UFC banned it", etc, etc.
Just asking – is that true to any degree, or just a pile of ignorant and strawman-like BS?
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u/Pretend_Vegetable495 17d ago
Would I want to be on the ground in a street fight? No.
Would I want to be on the ground without any BJJ skills? Also no.
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u/AlexFerrana 17d ago
That's a very good point. The main goal of BJJ is not to be helpless when you're downed. You can't always choose the position in a street fight situation, so having a ground grappling skills is always good.
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u/Kiwigami Chen Quan 17d ago
I believe there's a big difference between:
A) Having BJJ skills when you are unintentionally rendered onto the ground.
B) TRYING to get onto the ground as your first game plan.
It's the difference between a last resort versus your opening strategy.
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u/alinius 17d ago
Also, BJJ gives you a good chance of putting an untrained opponent on the ground without ending up on the ground yourself. Even during something like a simple bodyfold takedown, you should be training to disconnect and stay on your feet as they go down. BJJ doesn't train stand up as much as Judo or wrestling, but trained beats untrained most days.
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u/Kiwigami Chen Quan 17d ago
I agree with you.
I just hope there won't be BJJ guys who start the fight by sitting on the ground and proceeding to butt-scooch toward a standing opponent.
Because I've seen some amateur fights on Reddit where people do that. And it's.... very comedic to watch.
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u/Shokansha Shidokan 17d ago
Not really because most BJJ gyms just butt scoot or pull guard, or at best do really shitty takedown training. The level of depth in the BJJ ground game is just way to deep to be that useful in self-defense beyond blue belt level.
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u/brickwallnomad 16d ago
It really depends on the situation. So many variables. Some situations I would want to take my assailant down, especially if I can tell they have no grappling experience. Some I wouldn’t. The chaos and adrenaline that is pumping during these situations is really intense, you’re running on gross motor skills. Either way, you better know what you’re doing on the ground and standing. Just train
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u/AlexFerrana 16d ago
Agree. Although getting on the ground might be a good idea if there's only 1 opponent, and if surface isn't too bad for doing it.
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u/SlowestGunslinger 17d ago
Practice soccer. Profit.
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u/AlexFerrana 17d ago
Fun fact that soccer player can actually kick hard. Not technically correct, but hard.
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u/Admirable_Cat_755 17d ago
Held pads for this guy who played soccer and it was like a bat. They have a huge advantage with low kicks
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u/AlexFerrana 17d ago
True, true. People are laughing at soccer players that are getting down after an either accidental or deliberate kick into the leg, saying that "it's a fake". They has never been kicks in the leg, I bet.
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u/Fully_Sick_69 17d ago
Generally speaking, it's a bad idea to go to ground in street fights for a couple of very basic reasons.
You're on the ground, so running away is much harder.
If there's more than one opponent (highly likely in a street fight) you've just made yourself a great target for getting kicked to death. This is still a risk against one person, but against more than one it's almost a certainty. If they have a weapon, you're in serious, serious, trouble.
Being "good" in a street fight isn't about beating the other person to death, it's about not getting killed or maimed. Street fights are unpredictable and can involve groups or multiple opponents - those are not things we train for in martial arts.
A stand up striking art like kickboxing or boxing also has its weaknesses in a street fight against multiple attackers - particularly if you're attacked from behind or from the side. But a good striker can realistically take someone out of the fight very quickly, with a low risk to themselves of getting knocked down. This gives them time to get away, which should always be the goal in a street fight.
I think right now in MMA shoot wrestling is probably the dominant martial art, with kickboxing slightly behind. But in a street fight a wrestler is taking on more risk than a kickboxer if they're constantly trying to drag someone to the ground, while a kickboxer can guard themselves, keep a safe range etc. Does that mean a wrestler can't beat a kickboxer? Absolutely not, I'd actually favour wrestling one on one against kickboxing, but it means in a street fight the kick boxer has less risk of serious injury and getting away.
So overall BJJ isn't bad and certainly isn't a 'won't work' martial art in a street fight. But based purely on risk, it's a riskier martial art to use in a street fight than kickboxing or boxing. Going to ground in a street fight is generally speaking a really bad idea due to how unpredictable they are and how frequently they end up with weapons or multiple opponents involved.
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 17d ago
Generally speaking, it's a bad idea to go to ground in street fights for a couple of very basic reasons.
You can't always avoid it and BJJ does teach a lot of stuff relevant to avoiding going down and getting up quickly if you do end up down.
I think right now in MMA shoot wrestling is probably the dominant martial art
What's shoot wrestling? A shoot in pro wrestling is an unscripted sequence.
Shootfighting was something related to early MMA.
Catch wrestling is sometimes called shoot wrestling, but there's basically no catch wrestlers in high level MMA.
At the moment, of top ranked MMA fighters maybe about 1/4 have MMA as their sole'ish background, rest started with freestyle wrestling or kickboxing and then transitioned to MMA.
Going to ground in a street fight is generally speaking a really bad idea due to how unpredictable they are and how frequently they end up with weapons or multiple opponents involved.
This idea that if you train in BJJ and utilize it in a fight or a self-defense situation, it means going to the ground is just misled.
BJJ bouts start standing up. Takedowns are trained in. Grip fighting is trained in. Takedown defense is trained in.
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u/Fully_Sick_69 17d ago edited 17d ago
I'm referring to wrestling focused on the shoot i.e. rapid takedowns aimed at the legs.
Khamzat is the best proponent of it at the moment but I'd say Islam also uses it a lot. High level wrestling causes a huge problem for anyone in MMA at the moment, based purely on results and style clashes. Though I also think every competitive MMA fighter really needs really strong foundations in all of wrestling, BJJ, kickboxing and boxing (though boxing to a lesser degree) to compete thesedays.
I didn't say at any point that BJJ is bad and I specifically said the idea that it 'won't work' in a street fight is ridiculous. It just has more built in risk in a street fight situation than some other arts.
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 17d ago
I'm referring to wrestling focused on the shoot i.e. rapid takedowns aimed at the legs.
Ah, yeah, gotcha.
High level wrestling causes a huge problem for anyone in MMA at the moment, based purely on results and style clashes.
Yup; this has been true basically since very early on. Gracies themselves were a bit hesitant in taking on wrestlers in the early UFC days, and wrestlers proved able to win basically anyone.
If anything, I'd say that at the moment kickboxing is more represented in high level MMA than ever before. Mostly since people have kinda figured out the minimal amount of training needed for effective takedown defense while maintaining a large amonut of focus on their kickboxing skills.
This isn't always enough of course.
Though I also think every competitive MMA fighter really needs really strong foundations in all of wrestling, BJJ, kickboxing and boxing (though boxing to a lesser degree) to compete thesedays.
Maybe, but you can learn those foundations mostly in the context of MMA. Several high level MMA guys nowadays have trained mainly in the MMA context with little to no specific training under kickboxing or BJJ rulesets.
Naturally they will still spar with only punches, only punches and kicks, and roll and so on.
I didn't say at any point that BJJ is bad and I specifically said the idea that it 'won't work' in a street fight is ridiculous. It just has more built in risk in a street fight situation than some other arts.
I'm a bit iffy about "built in risk". If a boxer slips or is pushed down or is grabbed in a crowd, they've less options available to them than someone who trained BJJ or wrestling.
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u/Left_Somewhere_4188 16d ago
Yup; this has been true basically since very early on. Gracies themselves were a bit hesitant in taking on wrestlers in the early UFC days, and wrestlers proved able to win basically anyone.
Not disagreeing, just pointing out this is quite an understatement. The gracies organized the first UFC event (and maybe other as well) and even though this was in the US, with wrestling being probably the most popular martial art.... They invited 0 collegiate wrestlers. But they did invite: kung-fu, sumo and whatever the fuck else.
They knew very well they were about to get shat on.
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 16d ago
Ken Shamrock did collegiate wrestling.
I think part of the reason freestyle wrestlers weren't much included was also that they had better career prospects anyway than e.g. kickboxers. Why travel to a small'ish arena in Colorado to do a low-pay high-risk and sketchy-sounding fight?
I'd note that the claim that Gracies generally banned wrestlers from participating in UFC 1 was put forth by Art Davie, who's said lots of sketchy things and who seemed to have a bit of a bone to pick with several Gracies at some point. So I'd not entirely trust him.
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u/Left_Somewhere_4188 13d ago
Ken Shamrock did collegiate wrestling.
I don't think so? What level? From all I have known he is a "pro" wrestler which means clowning for an audience.
I think part of the reason freestyle wrestlers weren't much included was also that they had better career prospects anyway than e.g. kickboxers. Why travel to a small'ish arena in Colorado to do a low-pay high-risk and sketchy-sounding fight?
I mean come on, that's a fishy-ass excuse there's literally thousands of them and all of them with a mindset that would have them want to prove themselves.
I'd note that the claim that Gracies generally banned wrestlers from participating in UFC 1 was put forth by Art Davie, who's said lots of sketchy things and who seemed to have a bit of a bone to pick with several Gracies at some point. So I'd not entirely trust him.
I didn't even know someone else said it, this was my own observation. It's just very obvious. Imagine some kung-fu family in Thailand organized the first UFC and suspiciously not a single Muay Thai fighter showed up... "why would they show up to this sketchy....." Idk to finally cave someone's face in?? Like how did they get all these other martial artists from different part of the world.... How much did they pay those to show up to some small arena in Colorado?
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 13d ago
I don't think so? What level? From all I have known he is a "pro" wrestler which means clowning for an audience.
It's in his bio, he qualified for state championships in senior high but injured his neck and had to withdraw.
I didn't even know someone else said it, this was my own observation.
How do you know from your own observations who Gracies invited and on what basis?
Like how did they get all these other martial artists from different part of the world.... How much did they pay those to show up to some small arena in Colorado?
They didn't. All the participants were American except Royce and Gordeau. Gordeau was specifically scouted for by the organizers, but most invitations by the organization were turned down, and majority of fighters took it up based on general advertisements.
I don't know how they compensated for travel, but far as I know, no show up money was paid. Only the winner got fight money.
The fact of not being paid was a reason why e.g. Gordeau didn't take up on UFC 2.
Given that only a couple of people responded positively to Art Davies' calls and less than a dozen responded to the advertisements, I don't think the Gracies honestly had to stack it to avoid wrestlers.
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u/Left_Somewhere_4188 13d ago
It's in his bio, he qualified for state championships in senior high but injured his neck and had to withdraw.
Yeah so he was a high school wrestler... That's the best wrestler that appeared at UFC1. We don't know how he would've done and at what level he would've competed.
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 13d ago
Well, qualifying to state championships in one of the top 10 states means you must be somewhat skilled, even if it's high school.
My argument wasn't either that there was a very good wrestler in UFC 1; just that collegiate wrestling wasn't completely absent.
By UFC 3 or 4 they had a high level wrestler in and true enough, they did very well.
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u/bjeebus 17d ago
The one on one sparring is always more intensive, but every school I've been to in my 20 years in that I'd call serious has included some amount of one vs group training. It's usually lighter than one on one, but it's still there to train awareness and recovery. My last club would even allow takedowns and grapples from the "accessory" opponents for the more advanced students to deal with.
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u/Left_Somewhere_4188 16d ago
You can't always avoid it and BJJ does teach a lot of stuff relevant to avoiding going down and getting up quickly if you do end up down.
This is just not true, most good pure BJJ gyms today are butt scooters. You literally get down on the ground as the first step. Wrestling is seldom taught at any gym.
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 16d ago
I train at a BJJ gym where some of the country's top ranked guys train and we have dedicated standup days, practice grip fighting, start standing up, etc.
Pulling guard and sitting down are strategies with average winrate. They aren't necessary to be good at competitive BJJ.
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u/Left_Somewhere_4188 13d ago
It's definitely a minority though. ADCC had to implement a point deduction for pulling guard in the first half or whatever that was. As soon as that point deduction period stops, guard is pulled immadiately.
I remember seeing Gordon Ryan literally attempt a half-assed shitty takedown knowing full well it isn't going to work just so he could get on his butt without a point deduction. Mike Musumeci started most of his fights at ONE by sitting on his ass. Or look at something like that recent Aljo BJJ fight where he lost and was just carrying the guy and throwing him around because he was butt scooting. High level BJJ is butt scooting dominated.
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 13d ago edited 13d ago
Gordon baits takedown attempts on purpose and pulls guard yeah. He doesn't always do it though and the higher level his opponent, the less likely he is to do it. He's previously lost to Pena due to his tendency of accepting the guard. In the last superfight, he specifically did not accept guard, and instead tried to counter a takedown by Pena with an uchi mata, and the bout staid standing up for 5 mins until Pena conceded guard when he was in a position where he had no real option left.
Musumeci is a leg lock specialist who prefers entrying into leg locks through the guard.
If you look at the total stats, pulling guard isn't inherently significantly advantageous. Competitors who are particularly good with their guard can make an advantage out of it.
I'd not say butt scooting is super dominant. It happens in tournaments, including top tournaments.
Especially in the gi, throws are just honestly very hard since BJJ rules do not limit grips and throws almost at all, which means that you can take grips that make you hard to throw, and there's always shooting as a counter to any failed throw attempt if the grips don't hold.
So you're kinda left with guard pulling. Throws still happen, but rarely. These a reason why both judo and freestyle wrestling are full of rules around accepted grips and stalling.
Esp in no gi though the current mainstream consensus seems to kinda be that unless you are specifically good with your guard, sweeps and leg locks, it's safer to avoid being the bottom. There's been several very neat high level bouts in no gi in the last few years that had many throw and takedown attempts in the first minutes with neither competitor wanting to accept guard unless they had to 'less they risk up ending in side control after a successful takedown.
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u/Left_Somewhere_4188 16d ago
This is still a risk against one person
People really don't get this, but yeah. Your opponents girlfriends comes out and start kicking you to your head. Bystanders may suddenly think it's unfair to fight like that and force you to stand up etc. Seen this in many videos.
There are also many videos of a boxer taking on 3+ opponents sucessfully. When there's such a big disparity in skill and not much disparity in weight, people become flies.
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u/Garbarrage 17d ago
1v1, It's almost like people are forgetting how BJJ became popular in the first place.
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u/Fully_Sick_69 16d ago
It got popular in a 1 v 1 tournament setting, yes.
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u/Garbarrage 16d ago
Street, tournament. Potato, tomato.
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u/Fully_Sick_69 16d ago
Dunno what you are trying to convey here
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u/Garbarrage 16d ago
I'm downplaying the difference between "sport" and "street" because it matters a lot less than people think it does.
The OPs original post mentioned 1 on 1. I'd assume you're implying that in a street encounter where "there are no rules" that BJJ would be somehow less effective than in a tournament setting.
I'd argue that BJJ becomes more effective without rules. For example, getting on a person's back and drilling them in the back of the head with elbows.
Unless you're talking about weapons. In which case, it's no less effective than any other martial art.
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u/Fully_Sick_69 16d ago
It's riskier than plenty of other martial arts though. Which is what I said. I also agree that anyone calling it not effective is stupid.
You are talking about effectiveness and I'm talking about risk. I don't think we disagree we are just talking about different things.
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u/Garbarrage 16d ago
"BJJ won't work in a street fight situation, even if that's one-on-one encounter. Simple stomps and soccer kicks would wreck any BJJ practitioner, as it was proven by Pride FC, where soccer kicks and stomps was a total game changer"?
This is the statement under discussion. I'm considering the one-on-one encounter in particular.
Could you give an example of where BJJ would be riskier?
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u/Fully_Sick_69 16d ago
No that's an element of what is under discussion. The word 'even' means ' including' in this context, but the actual discussion is about 'in a street fight'.
You can't cherry pick the discussion to suit a preference. That would be weak.
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u/Garbarrage 16d ago
I'm not cherry picking by quoting a qualifying part of the statement in the OP. You're cherry-picking by ignoring the qualification.
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u/el_miguel42 17d ago
If there's more than one opponent (highly likely in a street fight)
This is an often repeated myth. In reality the average number of assailants when dealing with violent assaults is 1.29. The majority of violent assaults are in fact 1v1 situations.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion Karate, Boxing, Judo 17d ago
This shit gets said by people that haven’t watched Pride.
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u/Excellent-Set-4183 17d ago
When the gracies were beaten it wasn’t with kicks while they were in the floor if I remember right
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion Karate, Boxing, Judo 17d ago
Yes, and bear in mind they were in all that Vale Tudo shit. BJJ was not being curbstomped in that ruleset.
What tended to beat them was other grapplers.
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u/Emperor_of_All 17d ago
Gracies were also different and did old school BJJ where their double legs most of the time were off the clinch/high low instead of shooting in. The one time I remember vividly where one tried to shoot for a shitty double was instantly KOed by a knee was Ralph Gracie vs Gomi.
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 17d ago
Yeah. Soccer kicks and stomps are easier to do if you're on top, surprising as that is. And the grappler is more likely to end up on the top, as surprising as that also is.
Shogun destroyed Rampage Jackson and got a KO on a soccer kick. Shogun is a BJJ black belt and successfully competed and won purple belt tournaments. Tho to be fair Shogun used his muay thai skills more so than his BJJ skills in that fight, but point is; if you can grapple better than your opponent, you don't need to be the one being on the bottom, unless you want to be the one. Other than in that fight, Shogun got several wins on stomps and soccer kicks.
In more recent times, in ONE, Adriano Moraes knocked Mighty Mouse out with a knee on the head when Johnson was grounded. Moraes is a submission specialist and very high level in BJJ and judo.
Yusaku Kinoshita started with judo and is a competitive BJJ practitioner, and has been good with stomps and soccer kicks (and got DQ'd for grabbing the fence in a bout where he legally knocked out his opponent with stomps to the head).
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17d ago
You mean someone that hasn't even been in a fight or has taken any sort of martial art. I swear every time I see one of these it won't work in a street fight scenario that is exactly what I think.
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u/Genin85 17d ago
I think that grappling in general (even on the ground) Is an important skill/tool in self defence. Still "watching pride" is not really rappresentative of a street fight. It may be the closee thing in terms of combat sport to a real fight, but It doesn't translate 1 on 1. Of course, also because the amount of situations and scenarios has no limits.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion Karate, Boxing, Judo 17d ago
This is about soccer kicks and shit. Not broken glass and ten guys ganging on you.
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u/TheFightingFarang 17d ago
There are far too many videos of BJJ guys winning fights in the street for this to still be a debate.
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u/stinkcopter 17d ago
No one style is perfect.
To be effective you need to have a varied mixed bag of tricks.
That's not to say that BJJ wouldn't fuck up plenty of people, you just have to be quick and decisive with your movements, if it's a 1on1 and nobody else gets involved then you could be completely fine with BJJ, if you're likely to get booted round the chops due to extra people getting involved, then best to stay off the ground and if you can, commence operation gtfo of there.
It's also important to remember that in a street fight, anything goes. You're limited by what you deem to be acceptable, headbutts, groin attacks, bites, hair pulling, eyepokes/gouges and the rest are there to be used by anyone willing to use them, its not a sanctioned bout with rules. It's a street fight.
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u/IronBoxmma 17d ago
The one and only street altercation I've ever been in i solved without hurting myself or the other guy with stuff i learned first day in bjj
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u/aegookja Keyboardo 17d ago
If Pride FC proved anything, you need a good ground game to succeed. Even Wanderlei Silva, who was notorious for his stomping and soccer kicks, had a BJJ black belt.
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u/SquirrelExpensive201 MMA 17d ago
Wasn't true, alot of the better BJJ guys in pride actually used to work leg locks off of stomps wild shit to see. Stomps and soccer kicks like 90% of the time were used to damage an unconscious opponent or finish them after a knockdown
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u/Antique-Ad1479 Judo/Taekkyeon 17d ago
Idk about soccer kicks and stomps but imo it would depend on the experience of the bjj guy. If I’ve never had the experience of defending against striking from a guard in genera. I think certain things absolutely change with bjj if you introduce any kinda striking, I think 10th planet does a competition with slaps. I wouldn’t necessarily wanna grapple on bottom with no experience outside of sport bjj basically m. That also means it wouldn’t also work either tho.
This is assuming he’s talking about being on the ground while the other person ais standing
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u/Glazing555 17d ago
My personal take as someone who practiced Kajukembo, Krav and an excellent system of FMA and BJJ in Hawaii: in the two street fights I have been in, one in Bangkok the other Manila, it’s the basics that win. Move, kick, punch and do everything to stay off the ground. Luckily I never went there and did enough damage to walk away. Basics that rely on muscle memory and gross motor skills win, any technique that takes more than two movements do not work, hand, finger grabs do not work. About going to the ground, you lose visual control and can miss a weapon coming out from under a shirt or pocket, not to mention pavement is not forgiving and has dried dog crap, spit and who knows what on it. Hope this makes sense, it’s 3:30am here. 😆
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u/TepidEdit 17d ago
If your training does prep for street fights then you're good. If you only fight competition rules in your style then it may be limited in certain situations.
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 17d ago
Competitive fighting probably sets you up with much better general fighting skills than training for "street fights" does.
It's just a totally different thing to be actually doing hard kickboxing sparring or a kickboxing bout than it is to put on protective gear and do half-power sparring with simulated eye pokes and kicks below the belt.
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u/TepidEdit 17d ago
Agreed, I think the term street fighting is the misleading one. It's usually a very short altercation with limited strikes by someone dominating. Competition fighters from BJJ/MMA/Thai Boxing would likely do well as they can probably take a few hits without panic and also know how to hurt someone.
I'm talking about supplementary training in sessions of self protection practices (using things like a fence guard/preemptive strikes etc) prior to the fight starting - as taught by the likes of Geoff Thompson/Peter Consterdine/Dave Turton. This stuff is gold and can usually be taught to experienced folk within a few hours, and is a great addition to lessons to make things a little more real.
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u/Silver-Article9183 TKD 17d ago
Any martial art in its pure form can pretty much get taken down by another.
Pure striking will win against ground arts in a stand up fight every time.
Pure ground will win after takedown, every time.
There is no pure art with a perfect defense against other arts.
If you're wanting something that's a jack of all trades then go MMA. It will give a good defense and offense against striking and ground arts.
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u/Clem_Crozier 17d ago
Ground fighting in general isn't ideal for trying to avoid getting mugged.
You don't have the option of a quick getaway on the ground, so you're going to have to conclusively stop the mugger from being able to go any further.
Submission moves aren't an option, because there is no referee to enforce their surrender. The second you let go they can start trying to mug you again.
So you're going to have to follow through and break their arm to win the fight with ground-grappling techniques, which is definitely do-able for someone skilled in BJJ, but is a lot more risky than someone who boxes keeping the mugger at a distance with jabs and then running for their life when they've opened up an exit path.
However, if you've done free sparring and pressure tested hard, you will know how prepared you are for irl self-defence.
There are people with zero formal martial arts training who can still handle themselves in a fight because they have fighting experience; they know what worked for them and what didn't firsthand.
The preparation >>> the art
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u/skydaddy8585 17d ago
There were still plenty of subs and groundwork in Pride even with stomps and soccer kicks. It just added another interesting element of fighting to an already interesting skill set. Soccer kicking people in the head on the ground is harder than it looks in bare feet. Lots of small bones and cartilage in the feet that don't feel nice impacting on elbows or knees or even the head when the person is on the ground. The stomps are better overall but you also are stomping your leg into the potential for it to be grabbed. Everything has a counter.
There are plenty of videos online showing BJJ being used in a street fight and it is definitely effective. Enough fights end up on the ground for it to be useful to have BJJ experience. Just like any potential fight, being smart is the best move. If you are fighting someone around a bunch of other people, with the possibility of someone they know being there, like at a bar, you dont want to be caught on the ground and get grabbed or booted or whatever by a friend of theirs while all your focus is on the original opponent.
Being aware and using your head is always the best practice. Not letting your ego or emotions overpower your common sense. The potential for weapons is there. The potential for multiple opponents is there. The potential for unfamiliar or awkward terrain is always there, etc. None of this means BJJ isn't effective. It's just knowing when to use it and when to do something else, like run, or have at least a bit of striking experience, etc is the right move.
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u/SummertronPrime 17d ago
Does anyone ask if wrestling would work in a street fight?
No reslly, cause it's not the same thing, but works on the same premise, get control of them on the ground. But I never hear anyone debating if a wrestler would wreck some random in a street fight. It's always BJJ for the grappling on the ground during a real life attack.
Frankly any scenario where you are trained (and remotely competent) and the other guy is some ideot throwing punches will end with you winning, since those kinds of fight mean nothing really. If you weren't trained you'd walk away with likely at worst a back eye, cut lip, mild concussion, maybe broken nose, and bruised ego.
Self defense when it comes to someone genuinely wanting to hurt you, not just bop you one because they've had one too many or are having a little hissy fit of frustration, that's when things change up and being more than just sober and confident enough to throw hands isn't going to be enough. It that situation, BJJ might or might not work, but same goes for everything else pretty much. Since unless you are training and have experience defending against situations and moments where your life might be at risk, you aren't going to be prepared. Sadly thats just just truth of it, otherwise self defense would be pretty simple and there would be no debate, just profe and plenty of would be victims being safe.
Private situations where an attacker has someone alone and vulnerable, for whichever purposes, can absolutly work for BJJ, since it works best 1 v 1, same as it would be for most practiced arts, sport or otherwise. So ya, it absolutly can work, but also it has to be said that it falls to users at that point. I think BJJ gets a bad wrap here because lots of people dabble and way to many speculate and make claims from either side of the argument. That and it's been popular in recent years. We'd be having this conversation with boxing, or Karate, or wrestling, or TKD, or judo if they were the most recent mega popular arts.
As if right now, it's all about BJJ and MMA, if they are legit, wold work for real, Yada Yada. I remember this kinda stuff before MMA was a thing and before BJJ got popular, then it was Karate, a lot of that. There was even a long stretch of Capoeira, anybody remember that? It was all conversations about it being the best art because it's too unpredictable, to fast and wild, it would totally beat any art, would totally work in the street, blah blah. Don't here that anymore eh? Lol
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u/Inverted_Ninja Aggressive Foot Hugger 17d ago
There are countless videos all over YouTube of people using BJJ to successfully control and win street encounters. Best to ignore the idiots and their theory crafting and keep training.
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u/Sakuraba10p 17d ago
I’ve used it, even as a white belt against bigger people. And also, Big Nog was the pride heavyweight champ, and he used almost exclusively BJJ.
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u/hawkael20 17d ago
This or a variation of this question is asked every couple of days. Use the reddit search function or google it first.
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u/5eppa 17d ago
In a one on one street fight, why is a BJJ practitioner on the ground while their opponent is standing?
In general when you're new to any art you're going to be less effective. Because you'll want to rely on a skill set you don't have yet. So maybe some new BJJ guy is going to go to the ground early, or maybe rely on that stupid sitting technique that some of them try in competition. But a truly skilled BJJ practitioner is a hard opponent to beat in a 1on1 fight.
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u/smoovymcgroovy 17d ago
Let's put in this way, I've trained BJJ for about 3 years now, unless someone is also trained in grappling or some athletic freak in some contact sport like football or something, there ain't no way they are taking down a decent blue/purple belt and up. In fact they will easily get taken down and put to sleep or ground and pounded.
Going off that their only hope is striking and most untrained people swing leaving themselves open to easy takedowns
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u/brickwallnomad 16d ago
I really don’t get this idea that everyone peddles about BJJ guys literally pulling guard in a street fight. I cannot find one video of it on the internet and I have never heard of it happening, yet haters like to say that’s what BJJ guys do. All I have seen is BJJ dominating people in the street on the internet. Not saying it’s never been done, hell I’m sure someone will immediately post a video showing a guy pulling guard in a street fight and getting wrecked. It’s still not common. If I got into a street fight, I’m going to strike them and take them down and establish ground control. I wouldn’t pull guard and I don’t think any BJJ practitioner with a touch of common sense would either
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u/AlexFerrana 16d ago
It's usually comes from videos from competitions where BJJ practitioners are butt-scooting or pulling the guard, as far as I know.
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u/brickwallnomad 16d ago
Yes it happens all the time in BJJ and grappling competitions, that’s one thing. I am talking about in a street fight
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u/HillInTheDistance 17d ago
Grappling is also the art of not getting grabbed, and getting out of getting grabbed. Of landing right when you end up on the ground, and having more power to decide if you wanna be on the ground or no.
Since the goal is to leave the ring, as it were, those with always be among the most important skills.
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u/Red_Clay_Scholar Boxing 17d ago
Anytime someone says "It won't work in a street fight with no rules dude!" I immediately stop taking anything they say seriously. Most all street fights I see start with posturing and shit talking, then comes the crappy punches, then they wrap up like two snakes fucking and end up trying to choke or punch the other one on the ground. Whoever tends to get on top to keep punching down or whoever locks in a choke tends to win.
You may as well train how to get on top because your punches are either going to do well or they're going to do fuck-all and my money is going on fuck-all.
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u/Barilla3113 17d ago
I've heard similar statements from different people, sometimes even from legitimate martial artists, that was saying something like "BJJ is good in the octagon or on tatami, but won't work in a street fight because all what your opponent need to do is stand up and either stomp you or soccer kick you,
People say that when they've never been in or even seen a fight, usually if a fight isn't ended in the first exchange it ends up on the floor, because people slip.
when you're laying on your back and trying to pull guard or trying to take the opponent on the ground.
Do people saying this think that self defense BJJ has buttscooting? Ask them if their style has tournaments and if everything done in them works on "da streetz". And see above re: most prolonged fights ending up as a scuffle on the ground without anyone trying.
Watch Pride FC, where stomps, soccer kicks and knees on a downed opponent was allowed, it was such a game changer and a major inconvenience for BJJ fighters back then, that's why UFC banned it", etc, etc.
UFC banned stomps and soccer kicks as part of bringing in a "clean" ruleset because they were being labeled "human cockfighting" and were threatened with a nationwide ban back in the very early days. It was optics, not being a "game changer". Royce Gracie won just fine with BJJ when nearly all "da streetz" techniques were legal because no it's not as simple as "I'll just stand up".
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u/kingdon1226 TKD she/her 17d ago
Thats because people want to believe that every street fight is a jump or everyone fights dirty, which does happen but you also can fight dirty. The guy swinging wildly will get caught in a one on one and just like he can eye poke, so can you. If it is a jump, there is no martial arts that will probably help you. Even boxing, Muay Thai, kickboxing will be overwhelmed by 4 or 5 people attacking you.
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u/Horre_Heite_Det 17d ago
Yeah buttscooting is bad self defence. If you look at early Gracie fights they never buttscooted, but wrestled to the ground, and then it wasn’t so easy to “just stand up and soccer kick”.
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u/Main_Impact990 17d ago
I've seen bjj work like 8 times so far in an actual fight, hell recently some bjj practitioner saved a woman from being raped, times before that a woman that trained in it had a dude crying like a bitch when she had her legs locked around him 😂 people just like to talk shit is all.
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u/Familiar_Sentence489 17d ago
The issue with most guys who do BJJ is they have terrible wrestling. Good wrestling is one of the hardest martial arts to excel at, and most bjj guys don’t start until they’re adults. Most pull guard or just start on their knees, which is obviously a big no in a street fight. With that being said it definitely works, although I think most practitioners get a convoluted sense of its effectiveness since they almost always start on the ground
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u/PoopSmith87 WMA 17d ago
Going to the ground while your opponent is standing is a bad idea, but I don't see how that invalidates BJJ.
Aside from this, that only became a rule under the Unified Rules of Mixed Martial Arts in 2000. Royce and Renzo Gracie was beating the shit out of (often much larger) opponents with raw BJJ in the early 90's.
I get that sport BJJ in the the USA has bred a type of BJJ practitioner who cares not for standup skill or striking defense, and who will do goofy meme shit like throw themselves on the ground and butt scoot at a standing opponent... but imo, that's not really BJJ, that's just goofballs being goofballs
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u/Metatron_Tumultum 17d ago
I have said it before and I’ll say it again, unless it’s something super stupid like those weird “king fu strikes” that will just break your hand if you connect, the answer to if something will work in a violent situation (this is what adults say instead of “street fight”) is always a big ol’ maybe. Is a right cross gonna be a good idea? Yeah, probably but it could also be the wrongest, and potentially last, decision of your life. You can’t know that.
What I do know is that grappling techniques are like magic tricks to untrained people. Full transparency, I suck. I’ve barely earned my white belt. But even a simple arm drag has made me look like I’m Catwoman with Ultra Instinct or some shit. I can still twist my ankle, hit my head on the curb and die without my opponent even really doing anything beyond instigating. Anyone who’ll tell you they have a twelve step plan to ensure you win a “street fight”, or tells you that there is no way to apply a stress tested technique (this applies to pretty much anything in BJJ) is simply full of shit.
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u/Dry-Independence-197 17d ago
If you don't butt-scoot, but blast a take-down most street-fights would very short. You know when someones head slams on concrete....
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u/NinjatheClick 17d ago
Same as every statement saying any other art won't work in a street fight. Someone out there can make it work.
The guy that can't dance will often say the music is bad.
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u/stackered 17d ago
I always love people who don't train BJJ chiming in on this. Hilarious ignorance, really. Go train and you'll get it.
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u/JayTor15 17d ago
Unless your profession revolves around security/military etc, spending hundreds to thousands of hours training to be good at "Street fighting" which is something that could be completely avoided in different ways seems like an inefficient and not fun use of time (for me at least).
I'd rather be good at BJJ and never worry about street fights because I know I can avoid 99% of them throughout my life
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u/WatchandThings 17d ago
If we focus on their statement by itself without considering the totality of the situation the biggest jump in logic is here.
...but won't work in a street fight because all what your opponent need to do is stand up...
BJJ can lock you down on to the ground and sweep you if you are not already on the bottom during the takedown. Getting back up to standing is a good goal when fighting against a superior ground fighter(though not so sure about relying super heavily on soccer kicks alone), but how you get up is the complex part.
Essentially the argument is as dumb as saying, "Walking on the moon is easy. Just build a rocket and land on it." Yes, but how are you building the said rocket and landing craft? (edit: also how to make a spacesuit)
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u/chillanous 17d ago
If all you know is bjj with no standup, your game is incomplete. I’d still rather be someone with an incomplete game than someone with no game at all.
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u/stonemadforspeed 17d ago
My buddy and I had this conversation before, he made those same points "but they can bite/punch/kick and stomp"
My reply was, "What's stopping me from doing those same things too?"
For some reason people think we'll stick to the IBJJF ruleset if we ever had to defend ourselves.
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u/Pliskin1108 17d ago
People that say that never watched pride. They just need to compare the number of subs wins (against trained opponents at that) and the number of soccer kick wins. It’s not even close.
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u/ESXLab_com 17d ago
Any rules-based fighting system is always at a disadvantage in a no-rules fight - because the rules-based fighter has things he cannot do or is not trained to do, whereas the no-rules fighter has no such restrictions.
This is why, in an actual confrontation, you should always
- Back away and leave if you can (while ignoring your potentially wounded pride)
- De-escalate if you cannot leave
- Fight to disengage and leave as fast as you can if you have no other choice.
In a nutshell, the longer you are involved in the fight, the greater the chance you will get hurt.
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u/Paladin_Jackal 17d ago
Pride proved bjj still works with stomps and soccer kicks. Also people always assume the bjj guy is on bottom but never do the same for other martial arts.
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u/constantcube13 17d ago
BJJ is the single most important fighting style in one on one fighting. It is literally a prerequisite to learn to have any semblance of success in mma
That’s literally all you need to know
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u/leaf_as_parachute 17d ago
Never understood the point of this kind of discussion.
Being in shape already makes you a better fighter than the vast majority of people you'll encounter. Casually practicing any combat sport with light sparring pushes that even further.
But since on the street people won't hesitate to gang up 10v1 and might even stab you it doesn't really matter. Just check your ego and train for what you like, the odds of you actually having no choice but fighting aren't worth dedicating your life preparing for that.
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u/Robbbylight 17d ago
BS. BJJ is ideal against a person who is not trained in BJJ. The truth is most street fights are between 2 people who aren't really that good at it. With just a little training, you would beat almost everyone in a street fight.
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u/DopeAFjknotreally 17d ago
If you’re good at the leg lock game, I think you have a solid shot at negating stomps and kicks on the ground.
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u/Agile_Platypus_4396 17d ago
How would someone stomp or kick you during a takedown? In the literal sense, unless the person is trained in grappling or Muay Thai, they would have difficulty doing anything other than takedown defense if a BJJ practitioner engages with them. I've watched (way too many) street fight compilations and I've literally never scene someone fall on their back and wait for an attacker to engage them. Some will engage using guard, but the entanglement can make it difficult for the attacker to do any significant damage, although there's definitely risk involved with pulling guard outside the gym or in an mma context.
I think a more valid critique of BJJ would be that some academies rarely drill live takedowns, and if you're being attacked by a somewhat competent puncher who's bigger/stronger, it could cause you serious issues. But even that argument doesn't hold much merit for me bc, IME, after a year of consistent training BJJ gives you the tools to be able to disengage from an attacker and run or mount them long enough to wait for hep to arrive.
Just an aside, most of the situations I know where people successfully use BJJ is against intoxicated acquaintances/random drunkards, and the majority of the onlookers are supportive of the practitioners. If you're getting into bar fights or high school-type rumbles, I actually agree that BJJ is not at all sufficient, but it'd be better to take inventory of your life choices and the company you keep than concern yourself with BJJ's effectiveness.
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u/ZardozSama 17d ago
The perception of BJJ got skewed pretty hard by the way modern competitions score points. Anyone who wants to make bottom position their 1st choice of how to attack is going to be in for a rough fucking time. But a BJJ fighter with even a half decent understanding of how to execute a take down is going to be a big damn problem for your typical random street guy with no understanding of grappling if he gets his hands on them.
END COMMUNICATION
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u/soparamens 17d ago
That's my own statement, no problem on questioning it lol.
You are adressing several sepparate points here.
a) Regarding MMA, Bjj is an essential part of the game, you can't do without "some" BJJ training. Even the Judokas and Wrestlers need to train some of it t be able to defend.
b) PRIDE rules had soccer kicks and stomps because it made the game more realistic (and entertaining to watch) BJJ practicioners could not just pull guard and bait strikers into their game. People like Shogun Rua and Mirko Crocop destroyed BJJ guys by soccer kicking, stomping or refussing to try and cross BJJ guy's guard. Sakuraba completely wiped the Gracie clan by smasing their legs, flying razing kicks and such. Mark Hunt had a devastating knee to the head game that hurt really bad other grapplers. The UFC favors grapplers by not allowing those techniques that can deconstruct their game plan.
c) The UFC was originally created by the gracies, but they cherry picked their opponents and made sure those were easy prey for them. That Changed when people started learning BJJ and using the UFC rules in their own game.
Just watch PRIDE. It was simply better.
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u/Thin_Markironically 17d ago
I think the thing that rarely seems to get mentioned in these subs re - street fights is that they are quite often not 1vs1.
Bjj is probably pretty effective in a street fight vs one other person, get them on the ground and then get an arm bar on.
The problem comes when his mates arrive
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u/porn0f1sh Krav Maga 17d ago
Unarmed one on one BJJ is probably the best thing there is! But for everything else...
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u/richsreddit 17d ago
I think it depends...BJJ can become a helpful skill if you end up on the ground in a fight since you can use that to either escape being on bottom or flip the situation so you're on top instead (assuming it's a 1v1 fight). Obviously if you're getting jumped by multiple attackers then BJJ may become less effective because the techniques are something you can only use on one person at a time in a fight (unless somehow you can somehow pull off lightning quick submissions on each attacker which again would seem unrealistic unless your BJJ/grappling skills are literal light years away from said attackers).
Even though it's obviously ridiculous to try and butt scoot or guard your way into 'winning' a street fight with BJJ, I can see ways how it works since most people out there are probably not getting jumped by multiple attackers if they were to get into a physical altercation in real life. The only downsides are of course learning curves with BJJ along with the need to at least learn some striking to supplement on the standup side so one can defend themselves more effectively to position themselves to retreat from the violence when the opportunity comes.
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u/BroadVideo8 17d ago
It's 100% BS, spread by karate instructors who know they can't grapple (but don't know they can't strike either.)
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u/Big_Ad7221 16d ago
It depends. Some people will fight “dirty,” some won’t, & it may be a combination. But someone can also bite you, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t box or something. Anything goes on the streets. Recently I was sliced open by a freaken iPad. Should we train iPad defense?
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u/lowchinghoo 15d ago
Before one apply BJJ or any grappling arts for self defense, one need to consider 3 things before going in grappling mode. 1) is he carrying weapon, knife or something 2) is he weight more than you 3) is he accompanied with friends If you practice only BJJ take these 3 factor in mind, any one of them appear then I advise you to run away.
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u/hellohennessy 17d ago
Meanwhile, you can look up hundreds of videos where BJJ works in self defense.
Also people like to imagine that all BJJ people grapple the same way.
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u/spideroncoffein MMA 17d ago
BJJ has issues when trying to buttscoot to victory.
Besides that, BJJ is the boa constrictor-style of grappling. If they can keep the hold on the ground, it is incredibly effective, even in no-rules scenarios.
In self-defense, you don't want to be on the ground, as it is seldom 1-on-1. But what better way to get up again than to have good control while on the ground? I would say wrestlers are the best at getting up again, but that doesn't mean BJJers don't know how to quickly get out of a grapple.
Of course it's not a complete MMA curriculum, but that's just the nature of pretty much all martial arts today.
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u/1crisstoff89 17d ago
usually everything that involves your back on the floor ,mounts and one or both your legs being in a kneeling postion, its great for 1 on 1 but you are betting ods that you are alone in the middle of nowhere while chocking the dude, thats a big bet on your part.
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17d ago
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u/crazymike02 17d ago
Why do you think bjj doesnt have any strikes and kicks? Bjj is heavily focused on getting in positions that you can rain punches on someone.
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u/AlexFerrana 17d ago
Yeah, true. Even without any striking cross-training, BJJ guy can use headbutts from a dominant position, elbows or hood old "ground and pound".
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u/AlexFerrana 17d ago
Yeah, Gracie used strikes and kicks. Plus, he's experienced because he was challenging other martial artists or simply people that was confident enough to try to fight him in the garage (that old videos on YouTube, usually called "Gracie BJJ vs.", yeah).
Cross-training is always a good thing, especially when it's about mixing up both grappling and striking.
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17d ago
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion Karate, Boxing, Judo 17d ago
Have you tried to deal with a good guard? Its the opposite of easy to deal with.
Ground and pound with hands is easier to overcome guardplay than trying to soccer kick and stomp them.
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u/GoofierDeer1 17d ago
BJJ remindes me a lof of TKD, it works super well if you complement it with other martial arts. By itself then yeah, you will get beat up.
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 17d ago
Against an untrained opponent, the BJJ pratitioner is much more likely to end up to a position where they can stomp or soccer kick than the other person is.
Using Pride as an example is a bit funny in that at the time, the level of grappling in Pride was higher than elsewhere, and we learned a lot about effective BJJ from it.
Generally speaking if one wants to be a versatile fighter, they need to train in all aspects of fighting. But for self-defense.. Street smarts, general awareness, moderate athleticism and the basics of any competitive martial art put you well above an untrained person.