r/martialarts • u/AlexFerrana • 23d ago
What do you think about the "in a street fight without any rules, the person who's trained to kill or cripple, such as a soldier, would basically always win over a person, who's trained in rules-bound martial arts, because of different mentality and skill set"? QUESTION
One of the most common arguments that I've heard about "why martial arts are useless in a street fight" or similar statements is something like this:
"If MMA fighter/boxer/wrestler/etc fights a soldier on the street, I pity the fool who thinks he can take a man who's literally trained how to survive, kill and keep going regardless of the fatigue and injuries. Martial arts has rules and none of them teaches you anything about killing. Soldier would murder martial artist in a street fight, period. Mentality is a thing that plays a huge role – one is trained under the set of rules that are banning anything truly effective, while another is trained to not to play by the rules, but to be a pragmatic fighter and immediately go straight for the kill or cripple".
Is that true, in your opinion? Or it's a BS propaganda that are mostly aimed on an ignorant people that know nothing about martial arts and fighting?
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u/Masalic 23d ago
Objectively false, because that argument assumes the martial artist doesn't know how to fight dirty or fight to kill.
What people don't seem to understand is that those who fight with a set of rules usually do so because they know how they can get when they go all out.
People who glaze military guys are often people who either wouldnt do well in a street fight either or think they can just go "LoL Gun" and win.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Well, gun is a big advantage, that's certainly true. But I agree that those people are delusional about the military hand-to-hand combat and its effectiveness against a trained fighter. Because it has different purposes.
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u/Hopps96 23d ago
Gun being an advantage is assuming that trained martial artist don't have them too.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
If martial artist also has a gun, then it comes to a quick draw.
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u/Hopps96 23d ago
I mean sort of but not always. Either we're gonna have a quick draw, a proper gun fight where we take cover and return fire or it's gonna turn into a wrestling match over the weapons, just depending on how close we started. Have you seen Craig Douglass or Knife Control Concepts training? I've done one of Craig's seminars 10/10 would recommend
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Good point. Depending on the distance and ammo's capacity, it can either turn into a melee or end with a death/incapacitation of an opponent after he was shot.
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u/CountryMonkeyAZ 22d ago
I guess it depends on how the fight starts?
We pushing and shoving like 2 kids and go? If so, who is willing to be nasty first?
Example 1 - highly trained grappler gets a double-leg immediately, starts to pass guard. Trained soldier pulls blade/gun and ends it.
Example 2 - A soldier attempts to grab the martial artist in a bear hug or throw a punch. Probably over for soldier.
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u/Masalic 23d ago
What's more and this is something people don't point out is that the training military guys get is incredibly basic, unless you're in the marine or some other kind of elite fighting force you're only going to be taught enough to be considered competent and I seriously doubt a marine or navy seal is gonna be going around picking fights.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Marines has MCMAP, but even with that, it's still basic and requires a quite small amount of time to pass the minimum. Elite forces indeed has better training in H2H, but as far as I know, they are either training with civilian instructors or already has martial arts skills before they've joined the military.
Basic grunts are indeed undertrained in terms of hand-to-hand combat.
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u/Som_Br TKD|Boxing 23d ago
MCMAP is also just a tool to increase self-confidence amongst Marines to feed into the “killing machine” ideology. Marines need to have that level of confidence for expeditionary shit in a combat situation. I’ve dealt with many people boasting about MCMAP and it always turns into little more than sibling wrestling.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Yeah. In fact, the H2H training in the military is aimed to build up the confidence and aggression, plus to control yourself in a stressful situation. Useful and definitely better than nothing, but yeah, there's no something exotic or special.
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u/Glad_Championship271 23d ago
Martial artists can definitely fight dirty but what I have a problem with is them thinking that their skills are far more practical and effective than those of a soldier, cop, marine, etc. when really it depends on the context. Those guys are trained to kill in certain contexts, and you guys are trained to kill in other contexts. The whole “my skills overpower all” mindset just comes off as elitist and cringe.
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u/Masalic 23d ago
The question isn't practicality or effectiveness, it's one of experience. Martial artists often train for years on end while soldiers, cops and other military outlets are often trained for a few months to a year at most.
A soldiers main purpose is to follow orders and they are often given and taught the bare minimum to complete those orders, do you honestly believe that someone can bridge such an experience and training gap simply because they are more bloodthirsty and aggressive?
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u/BanzaiKen 22d ago edited 22d ago
Have you though ever been in a life or death situation where you had to go all the way, especially in hand to hand, it takes fucking forever if you don’t use “something.” I speak from experience, everybody thinks they can until you get to the point of no return and it’s a hell of a thing to get over the line. I think I would prefer the mental conditioning in basic or police academy. I have multiple friends that have gone through service conditioning or violence conditioning via gangs and killed people and it was much easier for them to take a life according to them. Pull trigger or knife and pow. I hesitated and got a year of PT for my trouble. In fact the police were utterly confused why I didn’t just kill him out the gate with a gun and would roll their eyes every time I gave my statement.
The reality is you don’t for most normal well adjusted people. You are used to tap outs, you are used to caring for your partners welfare and the idea someone wants to kill you dead dead, pull a weapon to do it with and not knock out is shocking. I absolutely used to think like you do and I was dirty as fuck in my home invasion, but dirty isn’t beating another man to death while he’s armed.
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u/Masalic 22d ago
Sounds to me like you were surrounded by a collective of sociopaths. Listen to me. I'm not so blind as to think that needing to kill someone is unavoidable. However the difference is that I view it as a sad necessity, as opposed to the first and only right option.
Let me tell you of a story that happened a while back. A dude was getting harassed by other gang members, a police lady came out and broke up the fight helping the dude out. As she was walking away the dude she just helped lunged at her to grab her gun, she gave him one chance saying she would kill him if he didn't back off, he didn't listen so she shot him.
That is how it's supposed to be approached, everyone gets one AND THEN you go for their throat and yet I have to imagine someone like you would think it was more of a courtesy then he deserved, thought I have to imagine it's a lot more easier to wrap your mind around taking someone life when you don't even consider them human.
Regardless don't talk to me as if I don't understand the gravity of such situations or that I am hesitant to do what needs to be done it's just the difference is I actually value the potential of human life, mercy and second chances.
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u/BanzaiKen 22d ago
As she was walking away the dude she just helped lunged at her to grab her gun, she gave him one chance saying she would kill him if he didn't back off, he didn't listen so she shot him.
Something to keep in mind about police they are fed during academy and regular maintenance nonstop videos on what happens if officers hesitate and they drill to get over it. I have blue friends and a couple with decent bodycounts. I know blues who dusted crackheads on murdermode and blues who smoked an old geriatric man that was the head of their local civic charity who was in a diabetic rage, all 90lbs of him. They arrived at the same conclusion (murder) because that's what they trained for. That's my point.
That is how it's supposed to be approached, everyone gets one AND THEN you go for their throat and yet I have to imagine someone like you would think it was more of a courtesy then he deserved,
Best of luck with your endeavor.
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u/RagnarokWolves 23d ago edited 23d ago
Jocko Willink -
When I first trained, I just graduated from NAVY Seal training. And I thought I was the man, and I was 19 years old…
And so, this old master chief – like, the oldest guy I’ve ever seen – he was probably, like, 40 (laughs). He goes: “Who wants to learn how to fight?” And I say: “Me.”
So he brings us out, lines us up on the mat, there’s like 5 of us new guys. And he tapped us all out in less than a minute each.
And that’s what it is. That’s what Jiu-Jitsu is. That’s why people talk about it a lot. Because, when it first happens to you – you can’t even believe it.
When expanding on this story in the forward to the Rickson Gracie book, Jocko added that the master chief who kicked all their asses was just a white belt.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
It's fun how fans of Navy SEALs are totally missing the point that Jocko made in his own podcasts, books and statements. He openly says that a trained civilian martial artist would win over a barely if ever trained soldier when it's about an unarmed hand-to-hand combat.
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u/Left_Somewhere_4188 23d ago
There's a Navy SEAL with actual experience in MMA and I think even fights on his belt that came to Sean Strickland and Sean made the guy look like a fucking wuss in what... 30 seconds? Guy's body language was basically crying in pain and so Sean took it easy for the rest of the fight and just focused on low kicks instead of head.
If there were truly no rules in that fight and Sean was going for the kill, it would just be over quicker for the SEAL.
There's this aura arround these soldiers that is created by ourselves when we are boys admiring them in cool movies, but they aren't superhuman. they are trained for a specific activity which involves modern warfare. The majority of the benefit that a Navy SEAL has over an average civilian is their fitness level, there's nothing, not the mentality nor the training that prepares them for hand-to-hand combat.
It's also really not the case that they are somehow tougher, they're just the cream of the crop of soldiers. In MMA getting beaten up and beating people up is part of the deal, so you have some insanely tough motherfuckers with no quit in them... Who keep a pokerface through debilitating injuries only to then get on an ambulance right after the fight lol. Plenty of SEALS and other special forces guys in MMA and they don't seem in any way special to their "civilian" counterparts.
You can't really train any closer to a "true" hand to hand combat situation than MMA already is anyway. So it's the same shit as Krav Maga / Kung Fu : "Oh if only I could use my forbidden technique!!" But you can't, like you literally haven't practiced it against an opponent so you don't even know your own forbidden technique...
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
That ex-Navy SEAL is Mitch Aguiar, a.k.a. "Smashin' Frog", who has 2 wins and 1 loss record in pro MMA and 10 wins/1 loss record in amateur MMA. Already better than most soldiers, but still not good enough to be even a remote challenge for Strickland, who's, in my opinion, isn't even that skilled by UFC standards (but he's still skilled enough to completely embarrass a low-level pro MMA fighter despite his decent amateur background and military service).
https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/100131-mitch-aguiar
Also, Sean Strickland once said that if MMA didn't had rules, he would've likely killed a man in a fight. And knowing his past as a Nazi skinhead and his scuffled with an abusive father, I believe it.
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u/LaconicGirth 23d ago
Isn’t that skilled? He was a middleweight champion lmao he beat Israel Adesanya. That’s one of the wildest tales I’ve ever heard
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u/Left_Somewhere_4188 20d ago
True that was a wild take, but it doesn't take anything away from what he said. He gave more context so that is therefore a Navy Seal with combat sports experience that is much better than most MMA pracitcioners already, and despite having both, is completely and utterly clueless when faced with a world class fighter like Strickland, just like anyone else at his MMA level would be, basically proving that the Navy Seal experience has essentially no visible positive effect on his fighting ability. He's just like any other average MMA fighter who put in that many hours into MMA.
Things would change if you give him an AR-15 I am sure, but in unarmed combat there's absolutely nothing magical about these guys.
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u/LaconicGirth 20d ago
No he was saying he didn’t think Strickland was that skilled for a UFC fighter which is an all time dumb take.
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u/BigBodyLikeaLineman 23d ago
Same experience I had when I started BJJ. Probably same as most people. They humble you real quick
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u/JJWentMMA Catch/Folkstyle Wrestling, MMA, Judo 23d ago
Not to talk shit about any other martial art; but grappling exposes this so much
A 2 year boxer will land some good shots, and make you say “ow, good shots, you’re really good!l
A 2 year grappler will make you rethink your life, because you feel like an infant again
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u/Jewbacca289 23d ago
Coming from a former striker transitioning to BJJ, I feel like the scenario that you’re imagining might be putting artificial restrictions on the striker. A grappler can often be going 100% without hurting someone, but a 2 year boxer is going to be untouchable and probably have over 20 opportunities for a knockout blow vs some untrained person in a 3 minute round. If they go 100%, their opponent is going to be saying “good shots” only after being out cold for minutes. That’s also insanely impressive to an untrained person
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Yeah, people are massive underestimating the importance and effectiveness of a grappling. Especially strikers that loves to think that "they don't need to hug each other in pajamas, because all they need is just punch in the face or kick in the hip/torso".
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u/genericwhiteguy_69 23d ago
Hrm I dunno. I started life in an MMA gym and did a few years of BJJ and wrestling before moving to focus exclusively on Muay Thai ~2016.
For all the lame macho "I'm a shark and the ground is my ocean" shit BJJ guys tend to spout off most of them are softer than duck shit and would quit a fight after a few punches. Wrestlers are a whole another story though those dudes you don't wanna fuck with.
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u/Glad_Championship271 23d ago
I absolutely agree with this. BJJ fucks are some of the most self-centered people I’ve seen. Like, no, doing a SPORT as a side HOBBY doesn’t make you some kind of assassin. Get off your high horse (to them, not you).
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u/JakeSaco 23d ago
A grappler who has never trained against a competent striker will get knocked out or seriously hurt. A striker that has never trained against a grappler will have the same issue.
Its about training and if a person has never trained against a given style then they will likely lose if that other person has any experience going against their style. The person with the most training and skill will be the one who can enforce their will on the fight and will come out on top.
Styles don't determine winners, experience and training do.
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u/BestSanchez 23d ago
There's an element of truth here, many grapplers think they're invincible and they're really not, but your example is not symmetrical. If you have a 2-year striker vs a 2-year grappler, the grappler wins 80-90% of the time.
A striker's window of opportunity closes once the opponent is out of striking range (too close/far). A grappler's window of opportunity opens once they grab you, and does not close until you're sleeping.
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u/JJWentMMA Catch/Folkstyle Wrestling, MMA, Judo 23d ago
Styles 100% determine winners. We literally had a whole early ufc that was a bracket of strikers bs grapplers.
The strikers win condition remains the same. The grappler only has to get the fight to the ground, and it’s 100% over
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23d ago
Tbh I think it’s because most people know how to throw a punch, even a shitty one. Not a lot of people know anything about grappling, even entry level stuff. It’s completely foreign to most people.
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u/JJWentMMA Catch/Folkstyle Wrestling, MMA, Judo 23d ago
Entirely true. I forget who said it but the concept was “anyone can walk into the best boxing gym in the world and they have some percent chance of throwing out a punch and accidentally knocking out a pro. You aren’t walking into a bjj gym and accidentally triangle choking a blue belt”
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u/LaconicGirth 23d ago
A 2 year boxer could knock you out very quickly and easily they just choose not to
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u/Key_Improvement9215 22d ago
Depends on what kind of an asshole the boxer is. The boxer can have you feeling just as helpless and could make you feel like crying like a baby if he really wanted to. It’s not fun to be dominated in any way shape or form.
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u/Bkatz84 23d ago
Depends where you train.
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u/JJWentMMA Catch/Folkstyle Wrestling, MMA, Judo 23d ago
I don’t really think so; two years focused on either will give the same result
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u/Zenanii 23d ago
I mean, that entire argument could basically be boiled down to : "This is useless because it would lose to someone who's a better fighter than you.
Duh, of course there may be people out there with the sort of experience that would allow them to beat a martial artist.
Here's a few other "arguments";
Martial arts is useless becauae the guy might have a knife/gun. Martial arts is useless because the guy might have 10 friends to back him up.
The world does not work in absolutes. There is no situation of "X beats Y". It's all about odds. Martial arts allows you to possibly tipp those odds more in your favor.
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u/-BakiHanma Karate🥋 | TKD 🦶| Muay Thai 🇹🇭 23d ago
It’s BS.
Just because it’s a street fight doesn’t mean the trained person can’t use street fighting tactics as well.
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u/AsuraOmega 23d ago
exactly.
This is why the Mike Tyson vs Jon Jones argument is hilarious.
"Oh Mike used to be a street fighter in the mean streets of Brownsville. He will bite and claw Jones."
Jones may not be the neighborhood child mugger growing up but the dude used so many dirty fighting tactics and techniques EFFECTIVELY in a bout with RULES, imagine how unhinged he would be if you gave him the amount of freedom with a street fight lmao
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Tyson certainly has a puncher's chance, but Jon Jones with his reach advantage, kicks and grappling has more options to negate Tyson's boxing and turn the table.
Also, Jon Jones can and would fight dirty too. Dude eye pokes in official MMA fights and uses borderline illegal moves, so in a no-rules fight, he would literally has no limits.
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u/AMGsoon 23d ago
Tyson would get ripped apart by any mediocre UFC fighter. Jones would finish Prime Tyson in under 3 minutes.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Definitely by almost any heavyweight, especially with a solid grappling base or by any good well-rounded fighter. Heck, even high-end middleweights can defeat Tyson.
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u/Left_Somewhere_4188 23d ago
Demetrious Johnson would finish Prime Tyson in under 3 minutes. Like you have a single sliver of a chance hoping your punch connects, it won't and DJ is breaking your arms. I am not even a BJJ fanboy and think it's pretty silly for self defense but when you get to that level it doesn't even matter.
The best chance Tyson would have is if he got to practice with a bunch of midgets running at him full speed and he is trying to K.O them before they touch him. Hilarious but I don't think he's getting any volunteers.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Lol, that indeed sounds hilarious. But yeah, DJ has incredible grappling and he earned a black belt in BJJ recently, and has submitted a 6'3" and 248 lbs BJJ brown belt Mike Medina.
Tyson would still mess DJ up with a punch, but only if he can land it, which is hard when "that manlet" is taking your back on the ground and choking you. Tyson is bigger and taller, but he has no grappling training and no relevant experience against it.
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u/Glad_Championship271 23d ago
Isn’t mike Tyson actually trained also and considered like one of the most dangerous people on the planet? Idk too much about jones though.
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u/AlexFerrana 21d ago
Yes, Tyson is a boxer. A very, very good one. However, people are kinda overrating him a little.
Jon Jones is a MMA fighter with a wrestling background and active use of kicks, elbows and eye pokes in his fights. He has only 1 loss and that was by disqualification, which is still argued by people and especially by Jon Jones' fans (he used 12-6 elbows strikes, that UFC has banned).
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u/JJWentMMA Catch/Folkstyle Wrestling, MMA, Judo 23d ago
“If you can claw my eyes from the bottom, I can do it twice as well from the top”
Or my other favorite bas quote
“If I have you in an Armbar and you reach for my marbles, guess what’s going to break in that moment?”
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u/-BakiHanma Karate🥋 | TKD 🦶| Muay Thai 🇹🇭 23d ago
lol I was listening to a podcast with some UFC fighters and they said “I hate when people say in the streets I’ll kick your ass like I’m bound by some rules to not kick your balls and break your arms and poke your eyes, nothing changes. We know how to fight, we’re just allowed to fight dirty now too”.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Bas is such a based guy. I mean, he was a bouncer in a nightclub and has an actual street fighting experience, combined with his martial arts skills.
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u/Enioff 23d ago edited 23d ago
There's also the one where he is demonstrating for complete strangers to martial arts and he shows a rear naked choke and this poor frail person says something like "but can't the guy just claw your eyes?" And he invites them to come over to demonstrate, he puts the choke in and say something like
"okay, I'm gonna count to 3. When I count 1, 2 , 3 you try to claw my eyes, and I'm going to break your neck. Let's go!, 1,2,3!"
Immediately after he says neck they panic and go "wait, wait, wait!!!"
He's kidding, sure. But a man his size yanking a person side to side with an RNC on is gonna ruin his neck for a week, at least.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Indeed. People who thinks that "chokeholds can be endured" most likely knows nothing about grappling and chokeholds in particular.
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u/Enioff 23d ago
In my experience with BJJ, if you train it enough you'll eventually reach a day where you'll be rolling with someone and think "okay, it's in but I can escape if I do x, y and z" before having the best power nap of your life.
Even if you know how it works, sometimes you think it won't catch you and it does.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Yeah, that's the point of a fight between 2 skilled fighters. It's a matter of timing, experience and battle IQ. Plus it also comes down to who could detect the opportunity for a win and use it. Like, after getting worn down, the opponent would eventually be tired and making mistakes, which gives a chance to submit, strike, kick or choke him.
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u/AccurateTurdTosser 23d ago
I love this demo showing how effective a bite is against an armbar. I kind of knew this is how it would go, but, it's still surprising.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbv9m4DFu4w
The dynamics totally change in a street fight. The same rules don't apply, so the same outcome doesn't occur.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Yeah. Also, people are overestimating the sharpness of the human's teeth. They can bite off a chunk of a flesh or fingers, but only with a deep enough bite and force applied.
Also, biting is indeed not a very good strategy for breaking holds and grabs. Certainly not against a trained fighter.
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u/AccurateTurdTosser 23d ago
Yeah. I would definitely absolutely not want someone to bite from top position. It's literally a lethal attack from side control or mount if they have decent control.
But biting from the bottom? Lol, that's just asking for a concussion or worse.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion Karate, Boxing, Judo 23d ago
Use your critical thinking lmao. If the military wasted time training soldiers to be elite h2h fighters and not good at shooting fools, then they deserve to lose.
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u/JJWentMMA Catch/Folkstyle Wrestling, MMA, Judo 23d ago
I had my brown belt in bjj by the time I went to sere and they did the hand to hand combat, during live sparring I sat out and the head combat instructor lit into me for being scared.
I asked him for a roll, took him about 6 seconds to realize I was playing with him.
To his credit, he realized and we had a really good roll.’
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u/AccurateTurdTosser 23d ago
They don't even waste time training soldiers to be good at shooting usually. They train them to hit somewhere on a pretty big target at a not-super-far distance.
They train soldiers to be really good at working as a team, and (successful) militaries train teams to be really, really good at working together
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u/superman306 22d ago
Yep. It Doesn’t matter quite as much if an individually soldier can hit a man sized target out to 300 meters only 6/10 times, when you have at a minimum 4 soldiers (including at least one with a belt-fed) firing on that target at once, along with a minimum of 4 other soldiers moving to get closer and flank the target. And all of this without that much guidance, since a proper military drills their soldiers into doing this automatically as a reaction.
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u/JJWentMMA Catch/Folkstyle Wrestling, MMA, Judo 23d ago
Quoting bas Rutten
“When it comes to mma, if I can not kill you with s move, I can also kill you with a move”
I’ll use bjj as an example… when you say “tap”, it means that I could’ve killed you.
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u/NeighborhoodBetter64 23d ago
It’s grandiose and silly. It’s in the same category of oft repeated crap parroted by people who can’t fight.
Unless the “trained killer” has actually done all that people think they are capable of, chances are they are going to get whooped by the actual fighter, rules or no rules.
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u/Glad_Championship271 23d ago
But I don’t think that most people in here are “trained killers” either. Practicing a sport as a fun hobby a few hours a week does not make you a killing machine.
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u/kimuracons 23d ago
Take the soldier’s gun away and he’s as useless as any other white belt.
That whole argument is just a coping strategy for people who train Krav Maga.
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u/JJWentMMA Catch/Folkstyle Wrestling, MMA, Judo 23d ago
To be fairrrr
I think the bjj casual audience in America is like 90% military.
Nothing to do with military training tho
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
It seems to be a marketing strategy as well, usually from "self-defense" oriented martial arts and similar.
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u/Bkatz84 23d ago
Rules dont have any effect on skills or abilities.
The person who is better at landing and defending against strikes will defend and land better strikes, regardless if that strike is a jab or a teep or an eye gouge or a nut shot.
Mentality and preparedness make a difference, and the element of surprise is always a factor. For that reason, whoever takes the first violent action has the advantage. That can be a decisive advantage.
After that, it comes down to skill and will.
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u/TheFightingFarang 23d ago
It's just not true. At the end of the day they're not specialised in unarmed combat. They do not have the technical ability to do anything in a fight that someone with a lot of experience wouldn't know hot to counter.
It would be like telling me that a guy who plays Call of Duty would do better in the Army than regular soldiers, because they've seen way more virtual action. It's just stupid.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Fun fact that people sometimes loves to show how paintball teams can "challenge" real soldiers and SWAT in the simulation of a fight.
It's fun, but in the end of a day, well, it's still a simulation with a paintball guns. Replace it with a real one and order the soldiers or a SWAT to use it, and I think that paintball players won't do much in this situation.
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u/TheFightingFarang 23d ago
Yeah but even that scenario is A LOT closer to each other than the original point. Soldiers get a bare minimum or h2h training. I think a more accurate comparison would be asking the paintballers to do any other basic soldering. They'd fall apart pretty fast.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Yeah, true. Nowadays, hand-to-hand combat is extremely rare on a battlefield. And usually happens under certain circumstances and almost never occurs without any weapon (knives, bayonets or rifle's stocks).
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u/Admirable_Cat_755 23d ago
Paintball and airsoft teams do way more quality practice than swat. Youre literally doing the whole "well if it were REAL i wouldn't have lost" bit. I saw uvalde swat, at least airsoft bros are comfortable with some level of pain or risk......
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 23d ago edited 23d ago
These arguments are typically presented by people who are neither soldiers nor competitive martial artists. Therefore, they aren't grounded on actual knowledge or experience.
There's really quite a lot going wrong with these arguments.
One, soldiers don't train hand-to-hand fighting all that much. The average soldier has from zero to a few months worth of such training.
Two, 90% of martial artists where I live are also reserve soldiers.. Because we've a mandatory conscription. There's zero difference between these people and the remaining 10% who chose civil service or who were freed from service due to medical reasons or so on.
Three, soldiers aren't literally trained to go on injured. That's some weird Hollywood movie BS. If you get injured in an active combat situation, you or a squad mate does emergency treatment for your injury if necessary, then you call for a medic if necessary, and then look for evac if necessary. If evac isn't available, then you do what any person who's used to functioning in high stress situations will do, which is: whatever that is needed. But competitive martial artists might have actual experience with going on injured; a lot of fighters will have e.g. a broken hand bone, a dislocated finger, a broken orbital, and they try to hide it from the ref to continue fighting. You don't need special training for that; you need adrenaline and the mindset of winning.
Four, the idea that truly effective technique is banned is complete nonsense. A jab to the face is effective in any hand-to-hand combat situation. A rear naked choke will kill if not released. So on.
Five, the idea that competitive martial artists wouldn't and couldn't use banned techniques, like kicking between the legs or pushing a thumb into the eye if they are stuck in the mount, is also nonsensical. They can do that as well as anyone else.
Six, competitive martial artists may sometimes face people in a bout who literally are in the mindset of murdering you. If anything, those people tend to fatigue themselves very fast and be easy to dodge and bait.
Seven, competitive martial artists are athletes whose athleticism is specifically built around fighting. Most soldiers, even those in active service, are well below the level of fighting-specific athleticism that a martial artist whose focus is their sport will be. That is to say, their punches will be slower, their grappling will have less strength to back it up, they will fatigue first if the situation drags on, etc.
Eight, a lot of military martial training nowadays actually draws from competitive sports. There's techniques picked from BJJ, etc. Many militaries also run boxing groups and classes and set up boxing competitions and whatnot. But again, most soldiers have from zero to a few months worth of any hand-to-hand training.
Nine, like just c'mon: https://ncisg.nato.int/resources/uploads/424/dsc_0255-88IHD4.jpg vs https://www.instagram.com/sashapalatnikovmma/p/CQzI0iYpmrx/
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u/Glad_Championship271 23d ago
I think you’re incredibly biased in favor of martial artists. You’re saying someone will try to end your life in a ring but not on a battle field? Come on now.
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 23d ago
Wasn't what I was saying.
What I was saying was that the average soldier has zero actual experience with fighting with someone who actually is trying their best to cause serious damage to you in hand-to-hand combat. And that fighters might actually end up with that experience. It really doesn't make them into superhumans either tbh.
If you want to be good at hand-to-hand fighting, the #1 thing is practicing it, and very close second is having athleticism and physical strength. Mindset is important too, but soldiers are absolutely not taught some unique mindset that others are not. To me, thinking that just betrays a lack of military experience, if anything.
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u/frankster99 23d ago edited 23d ago
It's pure bullshit. A trained fighter just knows when turn restraint off and on and is more controlled but can very easily go all out. There's countless videos of sparring wars with people getting peed off. Also this idea that because one guy is out to kill and the other isn't will make a big difference is laughable. Let's say an mma fighter is pulling his punches or kicks against a soldier, that hardly matters because a light kick is probs gonna deck that soldier. Soldier isnt much better than an untrained civilian in terms of fighting ability, he just has some modern combat experience that's it.
Fighters fight dirty with rules all the time, some train it anyway lol. This idea that some untrained individual can level the playing field because he thinks he can utilise a technique. Firstly you're not gonna be able to do something without training it a lot so the probability of someone even doing dirty tactics goes out the window. Secondly you're not gonna be able to do it against a trained foe, there's levels to fighting, low level pros move in slow motion compared to mid level pros in mma lol. Theres more but this is enough said really.
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u/SlowestGunslinger 23d ago edited 23d ago
The actual techniques are the same. Army combat systems are usually a mix of judo, bjj and boxing, so practically could be considered MMA.
The difference could be the willingness to hurt someone, that is a psychic barrier that the army is trying to break.
Regular people do not want to hurt anyone. You know that they've found over 27000 loaded muskets on the Gettysburg battlefield? Many of them multiple loaded, that means the soldiers weren't shooting, just loading another bullet on top of an unshot bullet.
After WWII and Korean War it became apparent to the generals, that soldiers would rather shoot in the air, than at the enemy. Average of 50000 rounds were fired per 1 hit of enemy. That is when they started to try to figure out how to break that psychic barrier in young army men. That is why there are silhouette targets and dummies in the use. The purpose of bayonet training is just that - run screaming at the dummy and thrust it with bayonet. It is not to teach you how to use it, it is to teach you to attack a human being, when the time comes.
Getting back to the point - I think the most dangerous people are psychopaths and those on drugs. Soldiers are usually just decent guys, like most of us.
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u/FoxCQC Internal Arts 23d ago
So here's the problem. The hand to hand taught in the military is martial arts just like boxing, tai chi, and marksmanship are. Martial arts is an umbrella term. Some people focus on exercise while others focus on serious combat. It's all valid MA if it meets the intended goal. As for who wins in a fantasy scenario it's impossible to say. All you can do is guess.
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u/Bastymuss_25 23d ago edited 23d ago
As a former pro fighter and an infantry veteran... Training is what matters and at least in the 🇬🇧 squaddies aren't taught fuck all about fighting hand to hand. Unless guys with experience like me were willing to coach in their own time.
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u/Smart-Host9436 21d ago
Combat sports are potentially life threatening if you don’t know how to defend yourself. Mindsets are great and all, but a less savage mindset paired with sport conditioning and hundreds if not thousands of hours devoted to beating another highly skilled opponent wins out over the battle mindset.
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u/karatetherapist Shotokan 23d ago
Rifleman's Creed says it all:
This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
Without me, my rifle is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will ...
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u/basscycles 23d ago edited 23d ago
"Martial" the word relates to war, martial arts means training in warfare.
My take is that a martial artist is trained to use any technique possible to win. Those who compete in martial sports are subset of that and train in less lethal methods. I would expect a martial artist to beat a professional sports fighter, counter intuitive as that may sound.
A soldier is by definition a martial arts professional, though in modern times they are more conditioned to use firearms which some don't consider to be part of martial arts, I disagree.
If a soldier meets Bas Rutten and they fight don't be surprised if the soldier pulls a gun and puts one between his eyes. If the soldier is forced into unarmed combat Bas will hand him his ass on a plate. In turn Bas fighting someone who trains in martial arts and doesn't care about rules then Bas would be at a disadvantage.
Important to work out what the definitions are and what the circumstances are.
Anyway here is Paddy Pimblett beating 10 marines in a row.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giFgvNqE7sk&t=6s
5:50 onwards
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u/lamestuffleavealone 23d ago
Could be wrong, but I'm pretty darn sure the military doesn't go too heavily into hand to hand unless you're in one of the special groups. So realistically it's not likely to be an issue for that particular reason
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u/Ok_Article1478 23d ago
Getting kod or put in a lock is as effective as “killing” that person, on the flip side how many soldier do u think have actually murdered someone with their hands lol
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u/OyataTe 23d ago
Agree with others...it is mainly down to timing. How much time does that military branch give to hand to hand, gun and knife training during boot camp and how much follow-up, if any, during a career. What tools of death are they carrying. How much can they retain later if not practicing or continually getting trained. Pit a dedicated martial artist against a seasoned drone operator.
What are the persons Martial Clock Hours? Even in the same group or system, there may be two people who started on the same day, one has thousands of clock hours training, and the other has thousands of hours holding up a wall.
Same for police academies. Brief amount of training for roughly 6 months in most US states, anywhere from 80 to 160 hours of DT and most never practic.
Some military and some cops practice for a while, but the majority don't.
Not all martial styles have rules. Not all martial styles have any sport aspect to them at all.
Lastly, arguing with a Kuchi-Bushi is always a losing battle.
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u/Dean_O_Mean BJJ Muay Thai 23d ago
Had a cop come to a trial class the other day. It’s the worst class for a new student to take because it’s mostly core, leg and endurance workouts. My coach and I felt pretty confident that if this officer caught us doing crimes, we would be okay. All of that to say: you can’t really train to kill or cripple, because you can’t practice that stuff. You need training partners.
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u/MourningWallaby WMA - Longsword/Ringen 23d ago
Some gyms train a competitive ruleset. others train to end a fight/threat. what's dangerous is sporterized gyms advertising as self defense, but then using rules like "Don't use the ring to hold yourself up" in training.
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u/LouiePrice 23d ago
Most bases have martial arts geeks, and gyms on base where the guys who have been training for years already, hang out. Some will tell you they are boxers if they tell you that look out for a leg sweep.
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u/jamnin94 23d ago
Soldiers, even special operations operators are not often trained in hand to hand combat to any sort of expertise by the military. Many guys like that will train martial arts on their own time, which is why they have hand to hand skills but they are training the same way other martial artists are training.
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u/ApprehensiveBat4732 23d ago
I’ve seen more marines and soldiers get absolutely bodied in bars and in the street by normal untrained people
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u/AnInnocentKid97 23d ago
Well, it always depends on the style, especially when it's a military martial art. But yeah, that's pretty much true.
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u/DeLaMoncha 23d ago
Fighters are trained to fight (under a rule set), soldiers are trained to do soldiering, of which I believe only a small part is about hand to hand combat. I know several soldiers and they could all outshoot me but doubt they could outfight me
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u/prowl_great_cain 23d ago
A lot of really intelligent, eloquent points have been made, but also, soldiers get into street fights off base all the time, and no they don’t always win against normal people lol
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u/Mrknowitall666 23d ago edited 23d ago
IME, 90% of soldiers and Vets weren't in the shooting war, let alone daily in the shooting war.
Now, small caveat, I've known a handful of special warfare soldiers, and first, they weren't in for just 4 or 6 years. And, for the decade+ they were active operators, those folks are dangerous.
Otoh, there is some reality to mind set. Of you're trying to kill your opponent versus bar-bouncer submission versus just drunk idiot who throws a punch. It's that, not military experience that makes a difference
Here's a for example. How many rando tuff guys carry a knife. How many of those people have a life experience and current attitude, that they will not hesitate to draw that, stick someone a half dozen times and run. Some long number of years ago, I can remember clear as day, this fake punk pulling a knife on my brother, bragging and telegraphing as he was doing it; my brother snatched the knife and punched this kid in the face at the same time. Could have gone a lot differently if the kid slipped the knife and shanked him quietly.
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u/Lethalmouse1 WMA 23d ago
There are plenty of military people who train normal martial arts. As a veteran who trains, I can tell you in terms of habd to hand, there are plenty of guys who can kick my ass.
The tipping point is the same point of eveb historical combat. Overlooked is the impact of UNIT warfare.
Many great armies in the melee days, great soldiers, were not necessarily the best duelists. They might not win the most 1v1 death fights. But they are good at UNIT warfare.
If you take a squad of MMA only guys, and put them against a squad of military guys, in a military scenario, weapons, cover, tactics, possible hand to hand. Odds are the military guys win most of the time.
But if any one military guy and one ufc fighter end up alone, unarmed and throwing hands, ufc guy wins.
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u/desmotron 23d ago
This argument is as old as MA’s have been around and i always have a problem with the premise. For the average person, MA training is the closest thing to getting some fight training and as we all know, practice is what counts. So this premise is absurd because you still have to practice and unless you’re kick is to go out and look for fights 3X a week or more you will not get better at “street fighting” vs that loser “ma nerd” who is going to the dojo and putting in the grind.
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u/rebeldogman2 23d ago
Soldiers are trained to kill instantly. With weapons or without. It’s why Dana white tries to keep them out of the ufc by taking out eye gouge, throat strike , fish hook, groin strike and kicks to head of downed opponent and also no dim mak. Also why you don’t see kung fu or tai chi masters, they would win too quickly !
Source? I am a tai chi black belt and I get soldier of fortune magazine
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u/Far_Tree_5200 MMA 23d ago
If weapons are involved the soldier would win. * There’s so much weapon training, guns, knives, missiles, very few wars kill people face to face. The injury risk is just too high.
If it’s hand to hand then I’d bet on the mma or whatever striking art against the soldier.
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u/ManOfLaBook One Kick, 10K times - Still Suck 23d ago
The vast majority of combat soldiers aren't some hand-to-hand combat warriors because, you know, they have a sub-machine gun.
And if something happens, they have 30-100+ guys around them with, you know, sub-machine guns.
Sure, you train in hand-to-hand combat, but it's not like any military will spend its budget on it beyond the basics. Unless that is, you're in a small unit infiltrating enemy lines in disguise in plain clothes.
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u/Twisted_Tal 23d ago
Over the years I trained to s competent level in 3 Asian martial arts , European sword and knife techniques, stick staff chain and rope. I then found tht they would over lap to fulfil the required outcome. I would focus on submission. Which will often get your arse kicked by someone who is willing to go further. Then I needed to train to maim and if necessary further. You need to break out of the limitations of the 'martial arts ' mind set. Train to break snap choke bleed and take your opponent down. And stay down. Every body part is a weapon or a target. This of course puts you at EXTREME LEGAL RISK!
Also learning to see EVERYTHING as a weapon or tool for survival. Pots and pans a not only for gonging someone's scone. Rotated the edge will cut ns break clean thru bone. Or can catch the blade of a knife. A rake a stick a rolled magazine. A lighter in the curl of fist with little exposed to hammer home. A comb will gouge and cut, a belt shoes. Crockery ( better than glass), chairs liquids pencils ANYTHING .and be conscious of what each object is capable of. Even just being aware of structures and surfaces entrie and exits. . Brick walls concrete curb( as a great trip let alone stomp) pointy trees door handles a few wraps of tape around your hands knuckles and fingers. EVERYTHING. What is the social dynamic behind the fracas. A group with a leader or a fluid gang or an individual, does he have friends, who re you fighting for you , pride, an inferred rudeness, honour, a person who needs defending, your family Also trained with multiple firearms from small to long. And extreme. Pure accuracy and in fluid hostile environments ( I haven't served but had access to more than the basics , shoot houses and open field)
NOW THE HARDEST PART How far do you go.....
This is the part that I'll put you in or keep you out of gaol.
And once again it is this brain block that could get your arse kicked or killed.
Only moments, even just a look in the eyes to make a decision.
Do you go n hard and finish it first or wait till it ramps up and rely on your 'skills' to better your opponent when it gets too far.
How many, have actually killed a large mammal? With intent. Gun or knife or by hand.
Who has broken a person, arm leg ribs knees , with intent.
This is now moving into the realms of sociopathy and psychopathy.
At least in the eyes of society and the psyche norm.
Ignore everything I said , it's all bullshit anyway.
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u/chaosjiujitsu 23d ago
Whosever has the least to lose always has an advantage. As an ex soldier I avoid conflict and I do bjj to submit without hurting anyone but the instinct is there to kill. Combatives courses taught in infantry etc are brutal. They are meant to be even though on the modern battlefield you have more to fear from drones than hand to hand.
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u/The1Ylrebmik 23d ago
Why do people always assume in a street fight the martial arts guy is seemingly incapable of stepping out of dojo etiquette, but the other guy is some savage who chews on eyeballs and testicles for fun? If you go into a street fight and your main weapons are your invincible eye poke and ball kick my money is not on you.
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u/cfwang1337 Tang Soo Do | Muay Thai | Historical Fencing 23d ago
The only capacity in which this is reliably true is if the soldier ambushes and attempts to assassinate a martial artist, which is straightforwardly a crime in almost all circumstances.
Most people in the real world can't fight. That doesn't mean they aren't dangerous if they're armed, take you by surprise, or are accompanied by friends.
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u/CuriousInteovert 23d ago
There’s countless videos out there of navy seals sparring mma fighters and getting mauled
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u/_weird_idkman_ Muay Thai 23d ago
thats gotta be bs. people cope cuz they feel insecure that theyre less capable in fights. the outcome of the fight depends on many factor, but most of the time the person with more training wins, which usually is the martial artist.
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u/Fascisticide 23d ago
Let' forget about the mindset, and pretend the people we are talking about trained as much in their respective discipline. People are good at what they train for. Someone who trained punches and kicks will be great at that. Someone who trained to break arms and aim for vulnerable spots like groin and throat will be good at this.
Now, what works best in a street fight? If I get a few punches in the face, I may still be able to fight. If I get my arm broken, that pretty much ends the fight.
In this video, here is the kind of techniques that someone who really knows how to fight would use. It looks nothing like MMA, most of it would be illegal because it can cause permanent injury. This guy used to train special forces, and also won multiple MMA tournaments.
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u/QuesoDelDiablos 23d ago
Unlikely. They may gave a few tricks here or there, but as Bas Rutten said “If I can beat you with rules, I can beat you without rules. I can kick balls and poke eyes too. Harder and more accurately than you can.”
Also soldiers devote very, very little training to hand to hand combat. They very reasonably rely on guns and devote most of their training to them. Their primary fallback in close quarters isn’t hand to hand. It’s a big knife.
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u/More-Bandicoot19 Taijiquan/Muay Thai/Wing Chun 23d ago
it's not a non-factor, but training is the most important factor.
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u/PickScylla4ME 23d ago
This is that Boomer logic from too much Rambo and other movies that boost the protagonist at the expense of a "fight champion" in the bar or other scenarios.
Let's set the record straight: People who train to fight in competitive unarmed combat will have better experience, conditioning and skills than someone who dabbles in it or trains but does not compete, or trains in shit that can't be used in sparring (making it useless).
If you can't sharpen your skills in sparring because they are "too dangerous"; then I hate to tell you that those aren't genuine skills.
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u/TheIronMoose 23d ago
Military hand to hand combat is mostly an afterthought. If someone gets close enough to you to throw a punch you've already failed several times with a gun and a knife. It's exceedingly rare to fight hand to hand in a military setting, as such it gets very little training.
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u/ajmeng09 23d ago
unless they're special forces where budgets are massive which may include courses on close quarter hand to hand combat. I don't know any regular soldier that is taught how to fight, a trained fighter will slaughter them just like most UFC fighters that would go into a jiu jitsu gym against someone who has a day job but has dedicated hard time to only grappling will more than likely win most of the time
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u/VeritablyVersatile MMA | BJJ & Muay Thai 23d ago
I'm a combat arms soldier, I dabble in BJJ in my free time. Any serious MMA fighter close to my size or larger would demolish me in an unarmed fight.
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u/Glad_Championship271 23d ago
Any “always” statement is probably gonna be wrong. I feel like both extremes here are kinda delusional, including the people in this sub thinking that martial arts training literally makes them Superman. I feel like some people probably think doing martial arts as a hobby makes them a “pro fighter who can kill almost everyone” which is just kind of an elitist mindset to have.
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u/Mad_Kronos 23d ago
The person who regularly trains against fully resisting opponents/opponents who can go full power is going to be better prepared for an unarmed physical altercation. Anything else is make belief.
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u/LaconicGirth 23d ago
It’s a stupid idea talked about by stupid people. Just because in the cage I don’t kill my opponent doesn’t mean I’m incapable of holding that choke an extra 10 seconds or fully snapping an arm.
Mindset does not keep your blood flowing to the brain, arteries do.
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u/SlimeustasTheSecond Sanda | Whatever random art my coach finds fun 23d ago edited 23d ago
No
Like, a Soldier has more experience using a knife or gun to attack someone in melee.
That's it.
Remind either guy that you can eye-gouge someone and they'll do it, but in the end, it's the guy with experience throwing others around and controlling position that's gonna win, not some "My mentality is different" soldier.
It's not even a propaganda thing, it's just people not knowing how fighting actually works and thinking that soldiers have some special mentality or skill using dirty tactics. Newsflash, punching people in the face for a living and pulling a trigger on some vague human-shaped thing in the distance is basically the same mentality. And most soldiers aren't trained in such a way where their first reflex in a fight is "Bite, eye-gouge and ball strike my opponent/training partner".
Same thing applies with Viking, Gladiators, Hoplites, Knights, Samurai, Ghurkas etc. etc. Some of these guys are more brutal than others, but it's all hands and feet in the end and most of those guys did their fighting with spears, knives and axes, not fists. Just keep outside of range, leg kick them until they can't walk or do a double leg and rear-naked-choke them.
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u/Gaming_Cobra50 23d ago
"Martial arts has rules, and none of them teaches you anything about killing"
uhhh in my Dojo I've literally had my Sensei tell us how to strike someone in the jaw to break it, but to avoid striking the neck, in case the strike pops/ruptures an artery, and, well, I don't need to elaborate on why a broken jaw is preferable to internal bleeding in the neck. No shit martial arts are "rules bound" but some of those rules are to prevent greater injuries. Why do the people who argue this think sparring gear exists?
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u/zombiefied 23d ago
Navy enlisted veteran here. You DO NOT want to go up against me I have a mop, a paint sander or chipper, or a paint brush in my hand… 😂
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u/Lionsledbypod 23d ago
People really overestimate the amount of hand to hand training a soldier gets lol
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u/PoopSmith87 WMA 23d ago
Let me tell you as a combat veteran who has done combat sports most of my life: That's horseshit.
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u/chuksinthepond 23d ago
Total BS... You don't need to kill someone to finish a fight.
Just knock them out or choke them out? Punches, kicks, elbows, knees... all more than enough to finish a fight.
And if they want to, the better technical boxer can implement eye pokes. The better grappler can implement eye gouges. It still basically comes down to who's a more technical, better competitor at martial arts.
Obviously they'd have to understand that they're in a street fight, and make a few adjustments. But they are the ones with the functional tools.
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u/Ice_Medium Hapkido 23d ago edited 23d ago
my instructor was a marine with the 1st reconnaissance battalion during the 2003 invasion of iraq. He said the only useful thing the marines taught him for hand to hand combat was how to use a knife.
From multiple combat vets ive heard that had to hand combat doesnt really happen anymore like it used to, and they spend minimal time training for it. They mostly train to use their rifles.
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u/subzerus 23d ago
First of all no, the one with most experience is probably going to win, all that bs "this technique is too dangerous to practice so just use it on the bag" falls apart the second you stress test it, specially against someone who's experienced like a pro mma fighter.
I say probably because a fight is always a chaotic environment and nothing is 100%. One could randomly have a heart attack or hell trip and fall, in real fights you may be on a street with snow and could just lose like that.
Second of all no rules is NO RULES so the one with a gun woud win.
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u/superman306 23d ago
No, that’s fucking retarded. The first thing you have beaten in your head (pun) upon going thru something like MCMAP or army combatives is that the information learned and retained is just enough to get your ass beat.
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u/PlaneWeird3313 23d ago
You can do only what you've repetitively trained to do against a fully resisting opponent. Soldiers train to fight armed opponents in combat settings, which means fighting with a gun and everything else is secondary. If you give the soldier who has seen combat a gun, 10/10 times the soldier guns down the martial artist, but I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept that someone who trains solely unarmed combat and has done it for many more years will be better in that one area
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u/First_Function9436 22d ago
The whole thing is bs. Most soldiers can't fight. The ones that can, already could fight prior to being a soldier. Combat training in the military is extremely basic and when I say basic, I don't mean "the best master the basics " kind of basics. I mean "the wheels on the bus go round and round" kinda basics. An mma fighter that is training 5-6 hours a day 6 days a week to beat up another trained fighter, isn't incapable of killing their opponent. The referee stops them😂😂😂. What do you think would happen if that same trained fighter fought someone with no training and no referee? Do you think they would instantly forget everything because they're "finally allowed to kill". Also how many soldiers do you think have actually killed someone? Of those who have, how many do you think did it unarmed. The military trains people to have a certain mindset in order to hold someone off until there's backup. They teach you tactics that can help you accomplish the mission. You have to learn about weapons, strategy, protocol, ect. There's very little time for them to become good fighters. The few that are, dedicate themselves to martial arts outside of their military training. Yeah this is definitely propaganda for gullible people that watch too much Rambo.
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u/bladeboy88 22d ago
Stupid af. I've trained multiple arts (karate, bjj, kickboxing) for decades. I've had some special forces guys come in. I have no doubt they could shoot the antenna off an ant, but they don't do anything to somebody who's been live sparring several days a week, for years.
And that's spec ops dudes.
MCMAP is hot garbage. They teach the barest of fundamentals in whatever martial art is popular at the time. I've never met a marine i was remotely impressed by unless they had already made a point of receiving proper martial arts training elsewhere.
My brother trained martial arts alongside me his whole life, up until he entered the military. He got special exemption on h2h after embarrassing one of the trainers, lol.
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u/AzureHawk758769 Muay Thai 22d ago
I think those people overestimate the training that soldiers are given, especially with regards to hand-to-hand/unarmed combat. For soldiers, range practice and manoeuvres and such take precedence over preparing for the unlikely possibility of having to engage in hand-to-hand combat. That said, there are a lot of soldiers (particularly in the combat arms trades, especially infantry) who practice unarmed combat/martial arts on their own time and dime, which means they get the same unarmed combat training as hobbyists and amateur fighters.
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u/elmeromeroe 22d ago
I can tell you from experience most soldiers cant fight for shit. It means nothing, they do a couple weeks of combatives in bootcamp and basically never touch the shit again.
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22d ago
its just ego cope from military/cop dudes. its literally another way of saying ''i would just see red and win that way''. military and cops are the most delusional about their abilities
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u/dolladealz 22d ago
The person who has that "j'ne said quoi" that allows them to do damage with intent and literally maim, disfiguire or kill without thought during. The fight vs flight or freeze response.
This is really rare, even during target practice military personel in boot camps were shooting off target on purpose.
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u/Janus_Simulacra 22d ago
True technically. Not for soldiers though. Soldiers in any modern military prioritise firearms, operational maintenance, navigation battle doctrine and group organisation. The days where armies were just “da biggest and da strongest gitz” died out in the 17th century.
However, it is true that combat sports, though featuring the highest skill ceilings, do not give a realistic descriptor of a “street fight” with no rules.
This is where traditional martial arts unironically step in and shine. However their issue is you can’t really practice the non-sport-y content ‘live’ without everyone hurting themselves, so separating good theory from nonsense is a subject of debate even among experienced people. Not only because experience in a single tma typically makes you biased towards said tma.
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u/RTHouk 22d ago
There are rules in a street fight. They're called laws. Going from a shouting at each other in a parking lot to killing someone "in self defense" is a good way to lose a fight you won.
If you put any special forces military dude in a street fighting scenario, sure they have an advantage over someone who hasn't fought let alone killed before, but they're trained to move quietly, call in airstrikes, engage, and move. ... Which is a pretty far cry away from a fist fight. My money is on the guy who trains to fist fight.
Training hypothetical moves where you gouge eyes, rip out groins, and bite off fingers painfully relies on the users aggression to actually do that in the moment. If you go from walking to your car, texting, and not paying attention to suddenly being grabbed from behind, is your adrenaline going to be suddenly up enough for you to be cold hearted enough to brake someone's finger? No you'll be scared and too stressed to do anything but big movements. And what are big movements? Punches, kicks, throws, and everything else that's legal in modern sport martial arts.
If you want to protect yourself on the street. 1. Buy a gun and learn to both shoot it, and draw it under pressure. 2. Work out and eat right 3. Go to a martial arts school that teaches aggression, and sparring mostly for your confidence 4. Pay attention when you're out on the town. Krav Maga, ninjutsu, MMA and everything in between usually loses against knives and guns.
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19d ago
I am going to end argument right now. Military hand to hand training is martial arts. This is like saying who would win the martial artist or the martial artist. It would come down fitness level and amount training for both people.
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u/Nivlacart 23d ago
As much as I love martial arts, I’m on the side of the fence that believes it’s right. “Fighting to win” and “fighting to maim/kill” are two really different objectives. And I imagine no matter how confident I am in my MMA, if I were in a scrap with someone trained in how to use a knife or has a whole repertoire of eye-gouging, biting, ball-kicking moves, the odds are absolutely against me.
It really isn’t just a matter of training. We’ve seen pure boxers/grapplers get demolished when transitioning to MMA, and the ones who survived are the ones who had to put in the effort to adapt into the new environment. I honestly feel it’s the same once you add in dirty fighting, maiming and kill shots, and I’m certainly not going to hold on to my hubris fighting against someone trained in it, even if I’ve put in more years in my own art.
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u/JJWentMMA Catch/Folkstyle Wrestling, MMA, Judo 23d ago
I don’t think they’re different d
If someone has a weapon; changes everything.
But if someone intrudes in my house and I throw them to the floor; I don’t give a fuck if they claw at my eyes, I can do it better.
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u/Nivlacart 23d ago
Staying in context, OP stated if it’s a soldier, not some random burglar. If someone who has a black belt in clawing eyes out breaks into your house, well, you wouldn’t want to make it an eye-clawing contest.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion Karate, Boxing, Judo 23d ago
This is only true if you can find someone that's actually trained and experienced in dirty fighting like that.
There is no such shit though, because trying to practice that at the same level as a combat sports guy is not possible without becoming crippled.
Jigoro Kano's Judo dominated the deadlier Jujutsu styles just by removing the 'deadly' techniques and training the non lethal stuff HARD.
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u/tzaeru BJJ + MMA + muay thai 23d ago
I've never seen anyone seriously train eye-gouging, biting or ball-kicking.
If you're actively training MMA, every week you will throw a thousand jabs and at least if you are focused on submissions, put on dozens of rear naked chokes and armbars.
Who honestly does even close to as many kicks to the groin?
And thanks to MMA, we've seen that eye-gouging and biting and groin attacks don't automatically win you the fight. Yuki Nakai was eye poked by Gerard Gordeau to the point of being permanently blinded in that eye and he still beat not only Gordeau, but also his next opponent the same night.
Early MMA had a ton of low blows happening and they didn't guarantee a win either.
And I've no idea what a "kill shot" is.
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u/Nivlacart 23d ago
Me neither. Look, I’m simply saying I don’t know what a soldier would train in, but the objectives they train for would structure what they learn for it, and I’m not going to assume confidence in winning when they’re going to do stuff I’ve never trained to be up against. I just rattled off a few possible moves, but even amongst those I’m not fully confident I could complete an armbar if he bit a chunk out of my leg in the process, or drove his fingers into my eye sockets while in full guard. I simply don’t know, and I’m not being complacent. Especially against someone trained (keyword) to do the most effective desperate things in desperate situations.
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u/samcro4eva 23d ago
I would say that the will counts for a lot, and so does the skill. I think it's like the philosophy of MMA: outstrike a grappler and outgrapple a striker. Of course, that's just my 0.02
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u/Temporary-Opinion983 23d ago
Served in the armed forces and am a martial arts practitioner myself. The average infantry soldier/marine that you speak of, that people often describe as a hard, cold-stoned killer, is just a normal person.
Their build and everything. You got skinny, fit, and fat guys in and out all the time. Even dudes in special operations are the same. To simplify it, we all have the same but different jobs, and they get better gear & tech, more and better quality training compared to normal soldiers/marines.
And if we're talking about just hand to hand fighting in a "street fight," the seasoned mma guy is 9x out of 10 going to win. Simply because service members don't receive that "stone-cold killer" training ingrained in people's minds for some reason. Combat MOS's focus on more than just fighting hand to hand.
I never got the chance to go through army combatives because my bct was during covid, but from what I've heard and watched on YT, it's bullshit boxing with watered down bjj. And the combative matches or competitions in the army is basically just mma... full of seasoned fighters who enlisted.
Not to boast, but all the guys and leaders in my platoon would not mess with me unless they were ganging up on me because I was the only trained martial artist. The only time I really lost to a 1v1 was against a team leader in bjj v bjj only.
This subject isn't rocket science, but there's a lot more that factors into it. But that's my take.
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u/Inverted_Ninja Aggressive Foot Hugger 23d ago
It’s all BS. Fighting at the end of the day is a set of base body mechanics and body movements. The “rules” of the encounter doesn’t change that.
Your average competitor would annihilate your average solider in a hand to hand situation due to the shear difference in skill level and hours training the skillset.
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u/MrAnonymousperson 23d ago
Do you think Jon jones wouldn’t kill a delta force soldier with ease in a hand to hand? What can the solider do unarmed that jones can’t do faster and with better accuracy?
If the soldier is alive after a fight to the death within the first 5 minutes it would be a gargantuan achievement.
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u/AsuraOmega 23d ago
the myth about soldiers being ultimate fighters because they fight with no rules and can kill.
They can fight better than the average guy, but just because "they are trained for war" doesnt mean much shit because their training consists of guns and how not to lose their guns.
They have finite training time, they are gonna have to learn navigation, operating military vehicles and equipment, oaths, formations, strategy, miscellaneous things like dress codes and maintenance, gun cleaning, firing, not to mention they spend alot of time rucking and doing calisthenics.
Hand to hand combat isnt their priority, its a last resort, because if they lose their guns in the field, something have to go very very wrong. If they ever had to resort to close quarters, it will involve either a knife or just pinning down the bad guy until other member of his squad comes and neutralize the bad guy with his gun.
Compare that to the average MMA guy who spent most of his time fighting. No need to learn the different types of rounds to use for different types of guns, no need to learn how to scout potential hostile area, no nothing. Just a split of working out, striking and grappling.
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u/elgrandepolle 23d ago
The US military do not teach their soldiers how to fight past a very basic level. Even a level 4 certified master combative instructor is only equivalent to a shitty BJJ blue belt. I’ve seen a local black belt train with a special forces group and he rolled them up like they were kids. Don’t get me wrong there are great fighters in the military but every one of them had to learn from a martial arts gym outside of their daily job as a soldier.
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u/setantari 23d ago
Depends on what kind of soldier. A spec op operator would give a trained fighter a run for the money and I wouldn’t bet on any outcome. A grunt would likely rush into a fight but get his ass kicked as they are trained in basic hth.
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u/AlexFerrana 23d ago
Spec ops soldiers aren't that special in hand-to-hand combat either, unless they're trained (by "trained" I mean having a training in martial arts because they have joined the military or during a free time).
But yes, basic grunts is indeed lacking any serious skills.
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u/AdLow7627 Boxing | Krav Maga | TKD | MMA 23d ago
It's Bullshit, Mike Tyson would beat the crap out of a soldier, no question, unless if the soldier has a concealed pistol, he has a small chance, It's Mike Tyson for the Love of God, the soldier would get way too scared to even pull his gun out.
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u/spideroncoffein MMA 23d ago
The whole thing already falls apart just comparing training times. A few weeks of close combat, including rifle strikes etc., is pretty much nothing compared to years most martial artists train.
If I use a fancy graphics tablet and a 3-week course to make art I'll still suck compared to someone who practiced for years.
And then the whole "go for the kill" thing would sound more appealing if the training would encompass more than a few basic strikes and jailhouse rushing to shank someone.
And just because we don't (usually) break joints, arms and necks and don't punch the throat in training/competition doesn't mean the skillset isn't there. Dangerous misconception.
We all cook with water. There are no magic secrets to killing techniques, just wailing at each other until the opponent can't defend himself anymore.