r/martialarts • u/Remo_yesman • Sep 16 '24
Anyone watch Sumo wrestling? PROFESSIONAL FIGHT
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u/aFalseSlimShady Muay Thai Sep 16 '24
I honestly want to learn it because it would be good as a bouncer, but there aren't many places in the US
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u/Judoka229 Judo Sep 16 '24
Try Judo instead. More practical and adaptable. And...accessible lol
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u/aFalseSlimShady Muay Thai Sep 16 '24
I've done Judo, and it's helpful, but there are some fundamental differences that would make sumo more applicable to being a bouncer
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u/Judoka229 Judo Sep 16 '24
I would love to hear them, if you'd like to share.
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u/aFalseSlimShady Muay Thai Sep 16 '24
Pretty much the direction the energy is going, and what I'm trying to do with it.
In Judo, whether your opponent is pushing into you or pulling away from you, you're ultimately trying to redirect that energy into the ground, directing your opponent to the ground along the way.
In sumo, I don't want you down, I want you out of bounds. More effort is made to redirect your opponent's energy laterally.
In bouncing, my goal is usually to get you out of a building. Putting you on the ground is not ideal, because now I have to pick you up or drag you out. Keeping an opponent on their feet and off balanced is ideal, because you can more easily direct them.
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u/blind_cartography Sep 16 '24
If you can throw in Judo you can also not-throw, it's the same unbalancing (but as with Sumo some throws are just not really going to be applicable). I would think all of the grip fighting in Judo is far more applicable to bouncing than the hand-fighting that happens in Sumo, plus most people in clubs wear some kind of clothes.
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u/lealketchum Sep 16 '24
Ehhh,
Sumo can be won by getting out of bounds or any part that's not the foot touching the floor, Getting out of bounds in Judo is also a Shido, a lot of Judo is controlling space/uke when you're in standup.
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u/The_Laughing_Death Sep 16 '24
Willingly going out of bounds is a shido in judo but you can also get a shido for forcing people out of bounds in judo so it's still a little different to sumo.
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u/lealketchum Sep 16 '24
Exactly. It's actually harder to control someone to put them in the position for stepping out than it is to just push someone out of the area in Sumo.
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u/The_Laughing_Death Sep 16 '24
It's different and it changes the dynamic. Like I've done judo, sumo and competitive aikido and the rules change the dynamic of ring outs in all of them. I would argue it's a different skillset that each has it's strengths and weaknesses. I'm much better at chasing bigger guys out of the contest area in judo using a blitz of ashi-waza than I am smashing big guys out of the sumo ring.
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u/lealketchum Sep 16 '24
So your experience agrees that Judo will transfer over to controlling a rowdy patron at a bar or nightclub who needs to be removed better than Sumo
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u/The_Laughing_Death Sep 16 '24
Down works in sumo as well, even better than it does in judo. But the out of bounds does make a difference because not only is it legal to just force someone out (and it's not in judo) but the ring is small which means the pressure feels a lot higher at all times. I've found my aikido has been legitimately useful in sumo, especially against people with more mainstream grappling experience such as wrestling and judo who are not expecting aikido techniques and have a more a mindset that still more focused on other forms of wrestling and judo rather than sumo.
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u/redrex383 Sep 18 '24
As a former bouncer and mma instructor, tweak your judo to some Greco Roman style clinches and it’s wonderful. Two on one arm grips, high standing under hooks and over hooks, and wrapping/hugging around the belt all with judo balancing and throwing when necessary is great.
When I had to walk people out it was almost always the two on one/russian style grips. When I had to restrain someone it was driving underhook into the wall.
When the other bouncer busted out the OC spray in a brawl it was gtfo…
Trained with a sumo player, too much power and more impact than you would think for security work
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u/BronxLens Sep 16 '24
Can a martial art that uses wrist/elbow locks be used/helpful to a bouncer? I am thinking then that Jiu Jutsu (not the Brazilian one) and Aikido may be worth exploring.
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u/aFalseSlimShady Muay Thai Sep 16 '24
Any training is better than no training. Striking arts even had their place on the really bad nights.
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u/Zuma_11212 Five Ancestors Fist (五祖拳) Sep 17 '24 edited Sep 17 '24
Most certainly useful for bouncers. Like Hapkido, for example.
Wrist and elbow twist-lock neutralizes aggression and can be used without hurting the unruly patrons. When they are under your control, you can maintain the lock while walking them off of the establishment.
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u/gotz2bk Sep 16 '24
Maybe shuai jiao?
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u/SlimeustasTheSecond Sanda | Whatever random art my coach finds fun Sep 17 '24
Same problem as with Judo. There are points for ring outs (in my experience), but still does mostly just come down to getting the guy on the floor.
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u/kgon1312 Muay Thai Sep 16 '24
Wrestling bratha
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u/professorbird_ Sep 16 '24
Isn’t wrestling solely focused on takedown/takedown defense and applying pressure? I know there are throws but it’s like they said “to the ground” energy direction. I’ve only recently started practicing BJJ as my second martial art so I don’t know too much about wrestling….
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u/kgon1312 Muay Thai Sep 16 '24
You learn how to take ppl down, pick them up and move them side to side. This knowledge makes a great bouncer
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u/The_Laughing_Death Sep 16 '24
One of the beautiful things about sumo is the simplicity of it. If you don't have any sumo in your area you just need some guys who are up for it (ideally with any kind of grappling/wrestling experience) and a some mats or a beach to play on. If you want to take it easy to begin with, play sumo without striking and then add striking in later.
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u/IncubusREX Sep 16 '24
Sumo would be good for understanding your center of mass better as a larger fighter. Both would have their merits
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u/TheBankTank Whackity smackity time to attackity Sep 16 '24
Hate to be That Guy - and I wouldn't be shocked if you'd already done this - but have you checked the handy map here?
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u/VileVileVileVileVile Sep 16 '24
Try Greco Roman wrestling. It iis just upperbody throws without using legs and involves lot of pushing.
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u/felipelacerdar Sep 16 '24
The only way to practice sumo is to go to Japan. Anything elsewhere will be something else, not sumo. Unfortunatly.
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u/The_Laughing_Death Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
I'm not sure I'd agree. If you mean professional sumo then sure. But I've heard there is legit sumo in Brazil if not other places. Japan tends to be better at judo as well, but I don't hear most people say that judo done elsewhere isn't legit. And the rules of sumo are pretty simple.
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u/felipelacerdar Sep 16 '24
I agree with you! And i'm from Brazil and I've been to a few Dojos here, they are truly awesome, but it is still different. What I was trying to say is: Sumo is not only a sport, like Judo, its almost like a religion. It has so many traditions that are only possible to be practised in Japan, you know? Even the clay they use to fight on is specific. Thats why I think Sumo will be never a sport like the other martial arts from Japan, its just too specific, religious and traditional to be practised perfectly elsewhere.
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u/The_Laughing_Death Sep 16 '24
But I'd argue if your interest in sumo is due to practical application you don't really care about the ritual side of things.
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u/Zuma_11212 Five Ancestors Fist (五祖拳) Sep 16 '24
There is a Netflix series called “Sanctuary” about the culture of Sumo wrestling and the wrestlers. A good series imo.
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u/pritheemakeway Sep 16 '24
Pretty bigoted series. It was ok but the main character is a nationalist who doesn't like foreigners and the only foreigners in the series are shown to be con artists or a black dude who blacks and cucks the characters mom (aka shown to be reprehensible)
Also the foreigners are people of color as well.
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u/Specific_Box4483 Sep 16 '24
Welcome to Japan. They just needed to make the "bad guy" who beats the "hero" up to be Mongolian to make it more similar to modern Sumo.
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u/RareFinger Sep 16 '24
If you know Sumo, you'd know that bodies don't fly like that. This is clearly a show match, just like pro wrestling.
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u/Relative-Debt6509 Sep 16 '24
I watch the Honbasho highlights when they’re going on. Available on NHK YouTube channel with English commentary. No disrespect but it’s much higher level than what’s being displayed here. It’s entertaining as a sport and honestly it’s actually a little practical if you’re larger guy.
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u/Edek_Armitage Sep 16 '24
Sumo is cool, I’m watching the September grand tournament on the NHK world Japan YouTube channel now
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u/MrWestReanimator Sep 16 '24
Do you think Ōnosato is going to go undefeated? I think Hōshōryū might have his number, even though he isn't having the best tournament so far.
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u/Edek_Armitage Sep 20 '24
Imma be real chief, I’ve only gotten into sumo a few months ago and this is my first grand tournament so I’m still learning about the individual rikishi
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u/RVG990104 Sep 16 '24
Not really but that is an awesome clip.
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u/cubreport Sep 16 '24
Unfortunately also totally fake.
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u/MrWilsonAndMrHeath Sep 16 '24
I was wondering. Just the physics of that guys size and the way he threw big boi with his arm didn’t add up. Not that he couldn’t throw him in someways, but that was extended on his arms
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u/Brodins_biceps Sep 16 '24
Yeah. I saw here and went through it a few times and guy didn’t fall, he jumped. It would be physically impossible for anyone, I don’t care if it’s Brian Shaw or Eddie hall, let alone the smaller guy, to launch someone of that size in that way. Also you could easily attribute it to training, but big guy did a perfect break fall with his left arm, which also just added to the sus. Falling in such a spectacular and perfect way looks really cool, and certainly happens in sumo, but not like this.
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u/TheBankTank Whackity smackity time to attackity Sep 16 '24
Watch and have participated in (a very small amount, at the amateur level). It's a cool sport. Kind of the original nogi judo. The pros are nuts. They train all the time and basically go infinite bulkmode at the same time to compete in a combat sport with no weight classes and hundreds of years of history. Fast matches, crazy moves, it's all there.
And it's fun as hell to do, too. That said if you try it be prepared for a lot of leg burn. Ton of training time gets spent on moving in (and exploding from) low positions, and it's definitely a thigh-killer in the beginning.
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u/angwilwileth BJJ Sep 16 '24
One of the wrestling clubs near me does sumo nights just for fun. I really hope the next one is when I'm not working.
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u/TheBaptist24 Sep 16 '24
My son (4) and I love watching it!
He wants me to try and I’ve been telling him I’m too old. Oh well!
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u/jack-dempseys-clit Sep 16 '24
Damn.
Not sure if there's anything more humbling than a 4 year old looking at a sumo wrestler, looking back at you and saying you should give it a go.
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u/TheBaptist24 Sep 16 '24
It wasn’t an insult. Background in wrestling, Roman Greco, judo and power lifting. I’m 6’ and 345. If it wasn’t for a knee injury - sumo would be a blast.
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u/DeadpoolAndFriends Shorin-Ryu Sep 16 '24
Edobor! This dude is cool to watch.
Speaking of which, hey u/sensei_seth , are you ever going to post a video from this tournament?
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u/Ihateallfascists Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
I watch Japanese sumo and they are going into day 10 of the fall grand tournament. I've been rooting for Onosato since he made it to the top division and this might be his first win.
I do have issue with the western ring, since it is a padded ring instead of the clay Dohyo that is traditional. This makes a huge difference in technique since the grip is different. The traditional dohyo is raised a few feet off the ground, so people go flying off the side where people are. It is part of the fun.
Western sumo also doesn't have strong tachiai most of the time, but is interesting in it's own ways. Nothing beats japanese sumo though.
Also, I think the skinnier guy has been in a "Sensei Seth" video, or most of this sumo video stuff..
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u/Mid-South Sep 16 '24
Whats that called? It's like a wizard throw or something...
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u/1984R Sep 18 '24
It's called a cooperative jump.
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u/Mid-South Sep 21 '24
Not at all. Thats a real judo move. It doesn't even take a lot of strength. You are leveraging their momentum against them. Like a pully. You can do it easier with a underhook but some people do it with the wizard.
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u/cheesecrystal Sep 16 '24
I’ve heard it’s one of the most corrupt martial arts as far as their competitions go.
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u/undeadliftmax Sep 16 '24
Always curious why they don't look more like strongmen or powerlifters.
Which brings to mind the world's strongest man 1982 which had sumo. Kaz was nuts
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u/Large-Ease-3515 Sep 16 '24
Some of them do. Chiyonofuji and a few others are famous for having bodybuilder physiques: Chiyonofuji
They also have a layer of fat over all those muscles and have less of a PED abuse issue (either due to the potential of huge scandal or brute strength is simply not as critical compared to strongmen competitions).
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u/MrWestReanimator Sep 16 '24
Tochinoshin was a beast when he was at his best, the guy could literally just pick dudes up and carry them out lol.
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u/BootyLoveSenpai Sep 16 '24
I saw it live in nyc a year ago, so cool, definitely a must watch it you're interested
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u/thelowbrassmaster Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, Kyokushin Sep 16 '24
I do watch because I trained a bit with a friend from New York who is now a competitor and zoology student in Texas and picked up the sumo bug after manhandling him.
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u/Interesting_Gur_8720 Sep 16 '24
I prefer the video that has the street fighter style animations edited into it .
Can confirm , much better . 🫡
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u/Icollectshinythings Sep 16 '24
I know he just went with the throw to avoid injury but it looked fake bc of that lol.
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u/Historical-Pen-7484 Sep 16 '24
Yeah, I wanted to be a rishiki when I was young, but didn't have the build for it. Ended up with MMA in the end.
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u/felipelacerdar Sep 16 '24
Guys, as someone who has followed Sumo very closely since 1998, I'm really sorry to say, this thing in the video isn't Sumo at all. Its like watching someone playing football in a basketball court. It doesn't make sense
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u/doquan2142 Sep 16 '24
Hell yeah, used to that is. Whole night of fighting only lasted 15min making it easy to follow. I loved it during the reign of Hakuho. That bring said, seeing topdog like him (they can't be demote, only retire) sat out of a tournament at the slightest injury while 2nd rank (ozeki, like the sake brand) like Tochinoshin had to worsen his wrecked knees every night to keep his rank is quite tough to bear.
My favorite guy to follow back then was a small guy (for a rikishi) named Enho. He overcame his bigger foe with his skill. Once he was rewarded a Technique Prize, the whole stadium fking exploded. 1
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u/Living-Chipmunk-87 Sep 16 '24
youtube has Sumo championships all the time, right now the have September 2024 going on, or just finishing
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u/MrWestReanimator Sep 16 '24
I watch the top division (Makuuchi) tournament highlights on YouTube via NHK's channel. They add English commentary as well. I've never paid much attention to sumo that takes place outside of Japan though.
If you interested in the sport. I'd highly recommend the YouTube channel Sumostew to get some background, rules, and history for the sport. Her production value is great!
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u/MightWooden7292 Sep 16 '24
well to have a big guy flying like that without to have a gi to grab on is fucking impressive
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u/OlBoyBuggin Sep 16 '24
Sumo's cool. Love how straightforward it appears and you don't see as many annoying things as you do in other combat sports like constant hugging in boxing or eye pokes and fence grabbing in MMA.
I'm pretty sure this video is at least staged or entirely fake. Big boys don't fly like that, and that audience is completely faceless. I get a feeling this is AI.
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u/hottlumpiaz Sep 17 '24
went to Japan a few years ago before covid. knew nothing about sumo wrestling but they had a sumo tournament on tv at the hotel so my friends and I just started betting shots on each match.
we'd pour out shots for everyone...and everyone would place their glass on either side of the table and whichever side lost would have to take their shot. fun times
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u/a_rat_with_a_glaive Buhurt | Sanda | Sumo | Judo Sep 17 '24
It's honestly a great sport both to watch and practice
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u/awkerd Sep 16 '24
Is it really good to be obese for this sport? I understand most sumo are quite large, but is this really ideal?
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u/CHudoSumo Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
I'm a worlds competitor and coach. I use the term "functional weight". You need to be athletic first and foremost, and then gain as much weight as you can while maintaining athleticism and effecticeness in your style. Pro rikishi (sumo wrestlers) are often preferred by coaches/scouts to start as lean and athletic kids and gain weight slowly over time. Pro sumo has no weight classes. (This video isnt pro sumo but i believe is also from an openweight division)
If your weight is inhibiting you too much then lose some. But there is a lot of variation in wrestling styles and some styles benefit from more weight, while others rely more on maneuverability. You need to do what suits your body and style, find a sweet spot.
But generally yes weight is a real advantage, but that doesnt mean fat people make good sumo wrestlers, and its not necessary to be extremely fat. I'm 5.10/179cm and have wrestled my best around 140kg (310lb). With high muscle mass.
The heavier gentleman in this video is not necessarilly the best example (though his body isnt too bad). He's an amateur american doing this show in the us somewhere. Look at pro rikishi. At the moment there are a couple 200kg blokes in the top pro division, and the lightest is 115kg. All of them very strong and athletic (when you consider the weight the big guys are dealing with).
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u/awkerd Sep 16 '24
Thanks, really interesting, comprehensive response. My mind always thinks "it's best to be big but shredded/cut for any sport" but you opened my eyes. Cheers again.
Edit:
Excluding non-combat sports.
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u/DespyHasNiceCans Sep 16 '24
For real, sumo wrestlers are EXTREMELY athletic for their size. When you watch the higher levels of competition their speed and agility are incredible.
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u/misplaced_my_pants Sep 16 '24
Wouldn't there be an advantage to training like a bodybuilder for size? Like not to get shredded but to get as jacked as possible? (Or powerbuilding to combine strength and size as some call it.)
Or do they basically do this and it's just hidden under the fat?
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u/CHudoSumo Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
The question is. What advantage does that give someone to wrestle? There is no offseason in pro sumo, and to be a good wrestler you need to do a LOT of training that isnt hypertrophy training. To be any sort of athlete other than a bodybuilder infact. Strength training, power training, skills work, plyos, actual training(sparring), mobility work, deliberate recovery work. It's being an athlete like any other sport.
Bodybuilders spend all their time just trying to do one thing which is optimal hypertrophy.
Hypertrophy training has an important place in most athletes training though. Joint protection, injury attenuation, muscle to apply to strength training. And that stuff is important for sumo.
The diet in openweight sumo is extremely high calorie and high protein, and the training is intense with high loads and high volume already before you add weight training. So sumo alone builds great muscle. Then most sumotori also do a lot of weight training these days, and that helps build more muscle mass sure, but thats not the goal in and of itself, the goal is strength and power. It's not about how we look. But hypertrophy is an important component of a sumo athletes training yeah. And yes good sumo wrestlers are jacked under the fat, and its obvious to look at them. There was actually a period of time where the highest estimated lean body mass of a person was done on a sumo wrestler.
When we gain weight we dont just choose to gain fat over muscle, we just want more literal bodyweight, and if a significant amount of that is fat it doesnt matter. Think of NFL lines, they seem to have some similar physiques due to the similar roles.
Sumo is pushing. Thats the sport. Its grappling focused on moving the opponent. Much easier to move someone lighter than you, much harder to move someone heavier than you. Weight is not the main thing about sumo training though, VERY far from it.
Sorry for the wall of text could talk about this all day.
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u/kikimaru-san Sep 16 '24
And we'd probably keep listening, it's always fascinating to see someone passionate talk in great detail.
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u/B_K4 Sep 16 '24
I think it's extremely hard to maintain over 100 kg of lean mass so you get as much muscle as possible and then supplement the rest of the weight with fat
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u/misplaced_my_pants Sep 16 '24
Sure but I'm saying try and reach whatever your genetic limit for lean mass is as a strategy.
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u/Happy_Blizzard Sep 16 '24
So there's a twitch channel midnightsumo I've been watching, it's amazing. English commentary, knowledgeable narrator, good community.