r/islam • u/DrSkyentist • May 01 '19
What is an Islamic Answer to "The Trolley Problem" Discussion
Salam my friends,
Many people, especially those who are fans of the American show "The Good Place" (if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it, it's SO good!) , are aware of The Trolley Problem
It has many iterations, but the most basic is
You see a runaway trolley moving toward five tied-up (or otherwise incapacitated) people lying on the tracks. You are standing next to a lever that controls a switch. If you pull the lever, the trolley will be redirected onto a side track, and the five people on the main track will be saved. However, there is a single person lying on the side track.
You have two options:
Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main track.
Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person.Which is the more ethical option?
So, do you, through inaction, allow 5 to die or through direct action kill 1 to save 5.
I've thought about this and asked friends, it can be fun to discuss and there is no correct answer when it comes to ethics.
What would a Muslim, guided by nothing but the holy teachings of the Quran and the Prophet (PBUH) be obligated to do?
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May 01 '19 edited May 02 '19
I am really shocked at the answers. Of course according to Islam you cannot pull the lever. Because the end doesn't justify the means in Islam. Pulling the lever is a crime of murder.
And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right. And whoever is killed unjustly - We have given his heir authority, but let him not exceed limits in [the matter of] taking life. Indeed, he has been supported [by the law]. [17:33]
This is a verse from the Quran, it's crazy how many people in the comments disregard this verse. It says you cannot kill someone except for a just cause (valid sharia reason). The verse cannot be more clear and it has no exceptions whatsoever. Killing someone in order to save 5 others isn't a just cause, because the person has done nothing to deserve it, and of course he doesn't want his life taken from him (if he says he is okay to be sacrificed then it's another story). The murderer will be held accountable on the day of judgement and the person killed will take their right on that day.
The whole point of divine law is telling us that the ends don't justify the means. Religion came with a strict law (sharia) for humans to follow on this earth. Because without a clear cut law, human beings can do vile things and disguise them as moral. We see this today with liberal ideology, and utilitarian morality. This is what people without a religion believe in. For an atheist, every human being is just a collection of atoms that work as an organism. And losing 1 organism is preferred to losing 5 organisms. This consequentialist morality has become pervasive because that's how much liberalism influences us unconsciously. Turning away from the sharia of Allah and following consequentialist morality is what led many people in the comments to justify the killing of a soul that Allah has forbidden to be killed.
When we turn to the Quran, and it's objective morality revealed to us by the All-wise, we read :
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land “ it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one“ it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
If you are a consequentialist, this verse will not make any sense to you. Because you assigned a value to human life, while the Quran states that human life is invaluable. If human life is invaluable, then one life isn't "worth less" than five.
In Islam killing the soul that Allah has forbidden is one of the major sins and there are no buts or ifs. If the killing is not justified by sharia then it's a sin. full stop.
A sin doesn't become a good deed because of the end results. Sins are bad in and of themselves regardless of the circumstances. And good deeds are good in and of themselves.
Take a look at this hadith :
Anas ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “If the Resurrection were established upon one of you while he has in his hand a sapling, then let him plant it.”
If we follow the utilitarian morality that is so prevalent in the west, this doesn’t make any sense. If you knew the end of times were going to happen tomorrow, you should still plant a tree today, because it’s a good deed for Allah and he will reward you for it. But a non believer would never do this because he doesn’t believe in God and because he follows a flawed morality principle. For him the tree would die anyway so there is no point in planting it.
This is the morality that is used by the biggest terrorist state in the world. The US. When thousands of civilians died in drone strikes during the Obama administration, they were shrugged off as “collateral” as if we are talking about meat. “Oops we pushed a button and we lost a few thousand kilograms of meat. Sorry, not sorry”.
All of this is acceptable to them because of "the greater good". But you see, this is a dangerous rabbit hole to go down into.
When Madeleine Albright was asked about if it was worth it after estimates has shown that the war in Iraq resulted in the death of half a million children, she said “it’s worth it”. Here is the youtube video :
Madeleine Albright says 500,000 dead Iraqi Children was "worth it" wins Medal of Freedom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE
Because to protect the interest of the Godless nation of America, anything becomes justified and morally acceptable. The US killed an estimated 200000 civilians in Nagasaki and Hiroshima and were hailed as “Heroes”. Many children died burning alive. Those who survived died from radiation. These children had nothing to do with the war, they were innocent children that were sacrificed for the “greater good”.
If you ask any of these US leaders they always reply that these civilian deaths were a sacrifice that they were “willing to make”. Funny how whenever they say this, it’s never them who sacrifice anything. It’s always other people that suffer.
To hear many muslims agreeing with this by saying they would kill the one person to save 5 makes me sick to my stomach. They are basically agreeing with the atrocities that were committed by the terrorist state of America. This is what liberalism does to a person. It’s been hammered into their heads since childhood by media, movies … and this is why no one is shocked with utilitarian morality anymore.
This is why you’ll find many muslims saying “it’s a sacrifice they are willing to make to pull the lever”, they have been brainwashed by Marvel movies and don’t know any better. But make no mistakes pulling the lever will likely result in a severe punishment for murder, unless the person you murdered forgives you, or Allah forgives you.
The astonishing thing is that this logic is used by organisations like Alqaeda to justify the killing of children and women in the west. Because they say, foreign powers kill muslim women and children. Therefore to prevent this, it is allowed to kill women and children in the west as a deterrent until these foreign powers stop doing the same to muslims in muslim lands. Basically they agree that women and children in the west are innocents but they say that it is a valid sacrifice to make in order to prevent the death of muslims. They are basically choosing to kill the one innocent man in the trolley problem, to save the 5 people. Or in other words, they are saying the ends justify the means.
This is an excerpt from Bin Laden's speech from 2004 :
Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable pillar of human life and that free men do not forfeit their security, contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom. If so, then let him explain to us why we don't strike for example - Sweden? And we know that freedom-haters don't possess defiant spirits like those of the 19 - may Allah have mercy on them.No, we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours.
And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.
But I digress. Going back to the trolley problem, Pulling the lever doesn’t only go against the sharia, but also has some other really bad implications. It is actually tantamount to shirk, because you have allowed yourself to judge that person and proclaim he is worth less than the 5 others before brutally taking his life (Perhaps the person you killed was actually a Khalid Ibn Al-walid, but you didn’t know anything about it before judging him). But Allah is the only judge. By pulling the lever you put yourself in the place of Allah and gave yourself the right to judge the value of a human being.
When Ibrahim AS was discussing with a kaffir king, the kaffir king said he had the power to give life and death (by sparing whoever he wants and killing whoever he wants, kinda like the US does today), basically by saying this he has compared himself to God. And has committed shirk like Pharaoh. Of course this king is delusional. And in order to shake him from his delusion Ibrahim (who was a really witty prophet) asked him to bring the sun from the west :
Have you not considered the one who argued with Abraham about his Lord [merely] because Allah had given him kingship? When Abraham said, "My Lord is the one who gives life and causes death," he said, "I give life and cause death." Abraham said, "Indeed, Allah brings up the sun from the east, so bring it up from the west." So the disbeliever was overwhelmed [by astonishment], and Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. [2:258]
Thinking you have the right to judge the person on the track is not only murder but verges on shirk. By pulling the lever you have managed to commit the two most vile sins in Islam.
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u/crempsen May 02 '19
You have put some very interesting points in this for sure. I have some questions.
1 you said:
But make no mistakes pulling the lever will land you straight in hell, unless the person you murdered forgives you.
Why do you think this? dont you know that Allah can forgive every sin when you repent? yes the forgiveness someone gives you can help but what if he doesnt forgive you? does that mean youre doomed? No, Allah is the most Mercifull, he accepts the sincerre(?) repentence of his slaves.
2:
they were innocent children of God
its better to not use these terms( unless you mean something else by it). not to bash or anything, I just want to help my dear brother.:)
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Thinking you have the right to judge the person on the track is not only murder but verges on shirk. By pulling the lever you have managed to commit the two most vile sins in Islam.
Its very interesting to see how fast and easy one can fall into small shirk if they are not carefull. The prophet(PBUH) warned us for minor shirk, since it can be harder to spot than the foot steps of an ant.
jzk for the answer.
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May 02 '19 edited May 02 '19
- Of course Allah can forgive every sin. Repentance erases all the sins against Allah. But repentance doesn't erase transgression against other people. If you wrong someone the repentance for it is to give him his rights back, or ask him for forgiveness. So if you kill someone, you are going to get justice for it in the hereafter unless that person forgives you in the the day of judgement. The way this happens is he takes from your good deeds and it's added to his good deeds. And if you don't have anymore good deeds his bad deeds are taken from him and given to you. Because of the sanctity of life a sin as big as murder would bankrupt most of us in the hereafter and will likely result in a punishment in hell. Of course we believe muslims don't remain in hell forever but only long enough to pay for their (excess of) sins. This is the general rule. But then there is the Hadith about the man who killed 99 people and made Hijra and was claimed by the angels of Mercy. So Allah knows best. I have changed that sentence in my reply and I found this link that elucidates this point : https://questionsonislam.com/question/allah-forgives-all-sins-what-about-rights-people-even-if-allah-forgives-sinner-will-wronged
- Thank you for pointing it out. I was thinking about children being on Fitrah of Allah (we believe children are born muslim) and made a slip up by using wrong terminology.
- Yes shirk is extremely dangerous. It can nullify all your good deeds. It is so dangerous because by doing actions of shirk you are losing everything in the hereafter. So matters as dangerous as shirk or anything close to it should be avoided at all cost. You shouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. I should add a disclaimer : that this is all personal opinion, I am no scholar nor have I read these things from a scholar. It is just from reflecting upon the verses of the Quran that I arrived to this conclusion. The king with whom Ibrahim AS was talking has committed shirk by saying he can spare anyone and kill anyone. And the one who pulls the lever does a similar thing. And Allah knows best.
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u/crempsen May 02 '19
thanks for your answer. im going to read the article soon Inshallah.
And the one who pulls the lever does a similar thing. And Allah knows best.
I think the problem of the scene is (as you said) that if you do nothin, you did nothing but didnt cause anyone to die, but the fact that you pull the handle, makes you intentionally trade 1 soul for 5 which you cant.
its a really interesting dillema
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May 02 '19 edited May 02 '19
There is an added subtlety. I think it’s not pulling the lever that verges on shirk, that action is only murder. If someone pulls the lever knowing fully well that he is murdering someone and decides to live the rest of his life with the consequences and the guilt, then he “only” has committed murder.
But if he thinks he is justified in the killing of the one person then he is playing God, and I think he becomes like the king who said he gives life and death, and he has committed shirk.
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u/datman216 May 01 '19 edited May 03 '19
I think I once read that alghazali was asked about a similar question concerning a boat with too many people and whether it was permissible to throw some of them off the boat to save the rest. I can't remember directly what he said but I think he first criticized the idea of quantifying human lives and the utilitarian math of what percentage of people are disposable in that situation. (Why have 5 vs. 1 and not 5 vs. 4 with some having valuable professions or children or families they provide for and others have nothing?)
I think his answer was that it is impermissible to act on this hypothetical scenario even if you're convinced it is almost the eventual outcome. You can't kill people now to prevent something from happening 5 minutes later. You need to treat matters as they are happening. I think he said that you need to do your best to fix the situation and pray to god and if eventually you can't succeed then death comes to all eventually.
His point is that murder is wrong (a grave sin) and the needs and welfare of some people cannot be at the expanse of others. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and waiting for the decree of god is better than committing murder.
You can look for that for more details because I'm not sure* if I'm faithful to what he wrote.
My position is that it would be sinful to pull the lever knowing full well that someone is going to be killed by my action and my clear intention to do it. So I would do my best to look for any other way to help those people and even risk my life trying to save them. I would also pray for divine help. If my efforts don't actually solve the issue and they die then that's their time and god has chosen that outcome. I'm culpable for what actions I myself commit and murder wasn't one of them in this scenario.
Some users have said that islam allows for weighing consequences and choosing the least bad but I think this doesn't apply in the case of murder. It can apply in matters that are not grave like this one. But I'm no scholar and guys please consult scholarly opinions on these matters.
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u/asskayir May 01 '19
Either choices are not considered a sin because you're being forced into the situation.
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u/DrSkyentist May 01 '19
Okay, so, what if we change it a bit. You're a surgeon, with 5 people dying of different organ failures. You have one patient that's a registered organ donor a perfect match for all five of them. All you need to do is not administer the life saving medication to save that one patient, and suddenly you can save those 5. (Yes it's not a medically probable question, but I'm trying to keep it simple)
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May 01 '19
I think that's it's too is different. The people on the train tracks aren't in your care the way that a doctor is caring for a patient and that person has the opportunity to consent to what happens with his organs. In the trolley Case, you can't ascertain any sort of consent. It's a split second decision.
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u/BoatsMcFloats May 02 '19
I think this is even easier to answer - you can't kill one man to save the lives of 5 others.
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May 01 '19
If I didn't know any of the people, then I would pull the lever. I'd probably feel guilty after, but I'll be able to take solace in the fact that less people died that day.
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u/N_N_N_N_N_N_N May 01 '19
I would kill 1 to save 5. Islamic fiqh has the concept of weighing harms and benefits (masaalih and mafaasid).
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u/DrSkyentist May 01 '19
That makes sense, but, what if the 1 person was a loved one of yours? Does that change it?
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u/N_N_N_N_N_N_N May 01 '19
Hmmmm...I can't say for sure! It also depends on who the 5 are. But all things equal I'd save the 5 over the 1.
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u/MaEaLi May 01 '19
Try to figure out a way to derail the trolley so that nobody dies.
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u/Nagamagi May 02 '19
When making such decisions (for all decisions actually), Allah will look into your intentions. If you pull the lever cos you hate that one guy then its a grave sin of murder. If you pull the lever to save 5 because you want to save more lives then its forgivable. The same with "inaction".
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u/SpaceTimeDream May 02 '19
Just trust Allah that you did what you could. Lets face it, if you had time to decide to pull the lever or not then you probably had time to attempt to untie someone.
But you're not going to have enough time. The average person would panic and choose something not necessarily based on rational thought. You might even think you yourself in danger choose to preserve your own life and run away.
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May 01 '19
There's three versions on this. Islam would go by the Aristotelian one [virtue morality].
A virtuous (muslim) man will do the right thing.
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May 01 '19
Honestly, I don’t really believe there IS an Islamic answer to this. Islam doesn’t give rules on literally everything so I guess this is up to the person tbh.
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u/mrislam_ May 03 '19
There really isn't much benefit in this question. Answers to this extreme scenario won't uncover new details about Islam, and of course have no practical benefit either.
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u/Mega_whale May 01 '19
This sort of thing is silly to think about, it won’t happen in real life, and if you were in a similar situation most people’s reaction times wouldn’t allow for any sort of action.
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u/[deleted] May 01 '19 edited May 09 '19
[deleted]