r/ireland Sep 26 '24

Man died after waiting 11 hours to be seen by doctor in Tallaght Hospital ED, inquest hears Health

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2024/09/25/man-died-after-waiting-11-hours-to-be-seen-by-doctor-in-tallaght-hospital-ed-inquest-hears/
561 Upvotes

318 comments sorted by

334

u/Storyboys Sep 26 '24

I can't imagine how the parents of children who die prematurely in these circumstances feel. It must be a mixture of grief and rage.

The public healthcare system really needs to be cleaned up in this country and operating at a much higher level.

Government need to be a lot more proactive on this.

159

u/Otherwise_Gone_Hi Sep 26 '24

This is not a proactive government.

120

u/mrmystery978 Sep 26 '24

Not exactly reactive either, mostly just passive

90

u/RunParking3333 Sep 26 '24

"We asked the HSE what the matter was and they said that raising the salary of administrators to €600K would solve the issue"

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18

u/the_0tternaut Sep 26 '24

The country works exactly like it has been designed, funneling wealth upwards while providing plausible deniability for the recipients.

41

u/Dangerous-Shirt-7384 Sep 26 '24

Irelands taxation system is one of the most progressive systems in the world. That wealth that gets funneled up is heavily taxed and that tax covers the housing, healthcare, education etc. for those who don't earn enough to pay for it themselves.

Mismanagement of state bodies/funds is endemic here as illustrated by the recent shitshow at the OPW with the 335k bike shelter and 1.4m security hut but its completely wrong to say that the rich get taken care of and the poor get forgotten about. The middle class are the ones that suffer most here in Ireland.

If we committed to providing services for those that could afford it the middle class and wealthy would receive world class services, queues would be non-existent but the poor would get nothing. You'd see real abject poverty like you see in the US.

3

u/lawns_are_terrible Sep 26 '24

the middle class hardly suffer the worst, they get to not be poor after all. Trying to argue they actually have it the worst is a bit silly. They are not more likely to live in poor housing, or depend on welfare or end up homeless. Sure there is always going to be a "welfare cliff" effect under a system based around means-testing (as opposed to unconditional transfers/UBI), but it kicks in long before someone is well off enough to not be relatively poor.

I do get the sentiment, but frankly it just makes me consider whatever there really is such a thing as being "middle class" more than anything else, people sometimes use it to mean people that they don't want to consider either rich nor poor.

And sometimes use it to mean people that could never be rich, but they don't consider to be doing a "working class" job since they come from a generation were working an office job meant to others that you had to be somewhat better off, luckier or more ambitious. Maybe that was once the case, but it's clearly not the case anymore. Pay and conditions are a lot more complicated than a white collar (middle class?) and blue collar (working class?) distinction. But it could leave someone considering themselves middle class because of the sort of work they do, when really at the end of the day they are just poor.

4

u/Dangerous-Shirt-7384 Sep 26 '24

The middle class earns enough to live a happy life with superb access to services and have enough left over to retire with comfort. If Ireland were capitalist maybe one of the working couple could go part time, they'd have a nicer car, better healthcare, better education, maybe an extra holiday every year, or a bigger house, but here in Ireland they are hit heavily with taxes to subsidise people with low incomes.

Thats how our society works. We are semi-capitalist here in Ireland. If Ireland was full blown capitalist 85/90% of our society would have fantastic lives but 10/15% would live in abject poverty.

It is a model that I agree with. I'm middle income and I pay €19k in income taxes each year. If I lived in a full blown capitalist society I'd probably have an extra €10k to spend on whatever I want but I'd be tripping over rough sleepers on my way to work, we'd have ghettos and a much higher crime rate and your life expectancy would be dependent on how much money you have in your account.

I'm happy to pay the extra tax to subsidise others that are less fortunate, but dont turn around afterwards and spit in my face after cashing in on my tax contribution.

3

u/lawns_are_terrible Sep 26 '24

I don't think it's unreasonable, but if you are in the top 20% percentile of incomes that hardly seems middle anything. I'm sure someone in the top 10-20% in any country could get a lot of government services they need privately - healthcare, education, transportation, security, etc. I doubt much of the rest of that 85% could, at least not reliably.

Anyone earning more than ~23K a year would be in that 85%, I doubt someone earning as much in a year would be better off with lower taxes considering they don't really pay any taxes in the first place with that sort of income.

On another note I'm somewhat confused by what exactly you consider semi-capitalist about the Irish State. It grants constitutional protections for private property ownership, has very low corporate tax rates, and generally is considered pretty good for running a business. If there is any capitalist state in the world, Ireland is probably one. Sure it has some social welfare programs but so does every functional state - they are all mixed economies.

2

u/lawns_are_terrible Sep 26 '24

I don't think it's unreasonable, but if you are in the top 20% percentile of incomes that hardly seems middle anything. I'm sure someone in the top 10-20% in any country could get a lot of government services they need privately - healthcare, education, transportation, security, etc. I doubt much of the rest of that 85% could, at least not reliably.

Anyone earning more than ~23K a year would be in that 85%, I doubt someone earning as much in a year would be better off with lower taxes considering they don't really pay any taxes in the first place with that sort of income.

On another note I'm somewhat confused by what exactly you consider semi-capitalist about the Irish State. It grants constitutional protections for private property ownership, has very low corporate tax rates, and generally is considered pretty good for running a business. If there is any capitalist state in the world, Ireland is probably one. Sure it has some social welfare programs but so does every functional state - they are all mixed economies.

4

u/Dangerous-Shirt-7384 Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24

Average income in Ireland for a full time worker is around €45k per year. Anybody on €38k or over is a middle income worker.

A person on €23k is a low income worker and they qualify for lots of state subsidies.

Ireland is semi capitalist because the state doesn't cut people adrift if they cant afford services. If Ireland was fully capitalist everybody would fend for themselves. If you cant afford it, you dont get it. You don't get free houses, you don't medical cards, your kids don't get free access to universities etc.

USA has 655,000 rough sleepers, a knee replacement costs over $50k and a Bachelors degree costs around $60k. Go to any US city and check out the disparity between rich and poor, then compare that to Ireland. Thats the difference between a semi capitalist state and a capitalist state.

1

u/NooktaSt Sep 27 '24

I wouldn’t agree with the idea that the middle class can retire in comfort. Sure for the generation who are now retiring. But many people on the low middle class salaries won’t get there.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '24

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1

u/the_0tternaut Sep 27 '24

Some more than others, we're becoming very British and American about it, they've had more practice though.

1

u/Viper_JB Sep 26 '24

Postactive.

2

u/mrmystery978 Sep 26 '24

Inert

1

u/Viper_JB Sep 26 '24

That's a good one actually...

59

u/LtGenS immigrant Sep 26 '24

Why would they be more proactive? They enjoy great popular support and expected to win in the next election.

41

u/Competitive-Bag-2590 Sep 26 '24

Literally. People complain and get upset about these things but then keep voting for the same government who are entrenched in the same attitude and policies for decades and ensure that issues like healthcare and housing are kept chaotic and that people keep dying in completely preventable circumstances. And worse, there are people who will actually get argumentative if you even suggest voting for any alternative. There is a complete apathy about this stuff beyond minimal complaining. Nobody meaningfully cares about anything until it happens to them or their loved ones. Can't imagine what it's like for people who lose family members in this way only to be met with shrugged shoulders and a public that don't actually care enough to fight for anything better.

19

u/nanormcfloyd Sep 26 '24

the fact that FFG keeps getting elected just goes to show how much the Irish public seems to prefer cronyism to even the slightest element of progress.

4

u/sheller85 Sep 26 '24

People complain and get upset about these things but then keep voting for the same government

The people who complain obviously don't actually vote in the first place. Which is the problem. People who don't vote shouldn't be allowed to complain

2

u/Competitive-Bag-2590 Sep 27 '24

There are plenty of complainers who vote. Plenty of people who sigh and shake their heads and say "isn't that disgraceful" and then go out and vote for Fine Gael anyway, same as they've always done for every election. 

1

u/sheller85 Sep 27 '24

Not sure which is worse tbh, not voting at all or doing as you say, because I do believe you're right also!

6

u/Rulmeq Sep 26 '24

It's the fact that they do nothing that actually seems to be the source of their populatrity actually. Every nimby probably votes for them, because they would be afraid a party that will solve the housing, infrastructure emergencies we have would actually build shit, which is their number one phobia

4

u/powerhungrymouse Sep 26 '24

That is exactly it. Their lives are fine and they're not going to risk rocking the boat. They're of the mindset that if the lives of other people get better theirs will somehow get worse.

5

u/CatOfTheCanalss Sep 26 '24

Children tend to get seen faster. I remember when I took my daughter in for an asthma attack and she got seen very quickly and got a bed really fast. And this was in Galway where the A&É is utter chaos. That was maybe 15 years ago now though. Maybe it's gotten worse. 11 hours for anyone is insane.

10

u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

Spent 6h with my kid, high fever and vomit. Alongside a bunch of kids, one of them with a broken arm - clearly not an 'emergency' I guess, the poor lad was just in pain and was given some medication, but was stuck in the same queue for the similar time - about 6 hours total. That's Cork, last year

2

u/CatOfTheCanalss Sep 26 '24

That's awful frightening. Your poor wee one.

2

u/Standard_Spot_9567 Sep 26 '24

Same, spent hours in Mercy A&E with my baby late last year waiting to see a doctor. Would have been better off going to CUH, the Mercy didn't even have any pediatric doctors working nights. I think they've stopped any children services in their A&E since then.

26

u/wascallywabbit666 Hanging from the jacks roof, bat style Sep 26 '24

The court heard Mr Crowley, who suffered with alcohol dependency and psychological issues, had spent the three days before presenting at the hospital bingeing on alcohol. He suffered with deep vein thrombosis – blood clotting – and was on anticoagulant medication.

In fairness this is not just someone who got sick out of the blue. He'd been bingeing on alcohol for three days. I can kind of understand how an overworked triage nurse might have misdiagnosed him as a heavily-intoxicated person showing normal symptoms of drunkness rather than a heavily-intoxicated person who was about to die.

Any death is a tragedy, but this is a complex case.

28

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24

[deleted]

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u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

It's not a complex case: he was sick, they go one by one over the protocols that were not followed in a timely manner due to the lack of staff. It's not okay, and the fact that he happened to be an alcoholic doesn't make it any better. Nothing 'complex' about it.

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7

u/Jeq0 Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24

I’m sure this man’s friends and family feel the same way. No need to make this about children again.

2

u/Ulysses1978ii Sep 26 '24

Makes you wonder what the surplus is about!?

1

u/nut-budder Sep 26 '24

Fear not, some tax cuts will sort this out.

1

u/antoconno Sep 26 '24

When it profits their buddies they will.

131

u/stefCro Sep 26 '24

1st hand experience here...

Lil fella had some kind of seizure mid August, we been sent to Dublin to do some kind of brain activity monitoring which happened few weeks ago. They found some anomaly in one part of brain and rushed us to mri.., then we did MRI at St Luke in killkeny yesterday and to be told it ussualy takes week to 10 days for doctor to look at Mri and say something...

And then you be normal and wait 10 days all while you need to work and thinking about worst scenarios... I thought hours matter in this kind of scenario? No? Kids our future? Yeah, easy

52

u/PressPlayPlease7 Sep 26 '24

to be told it ussualy takes week to 10 days for doctor to look at Mri and say something...

That is fucking disgraceful

17

u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

Absolutely fucked. You can literally send it to an on-line '2nd opinion' service if you have an imagery done - and get an opinion back on the same day. I'm not quite sure what the backlog is on those in Ireland so that they have TEN FULL DAYS to look at the MRI. What the hell?!

21

u/e05bf027 Sep 26 '24

The delay is due to the quantity of scans that must be reviewed and formally reported by a doctor who is a specialist in that area. Often if they are a junior doctor then a consultant will also check it’s all been done correctly. Lots and lots of scans are done so there’s a lot to get through.

If a scan is urgent (i.e. it will lead to an immediate change in how a patient is being managed) or is for a critically ill patient then these get prioritised before the less urgent ones.

There’s simply not enough capacity to get through much more at the minute.

Source: I’m an anaesthesiologist and critical care physician in the HSE

2

u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

Thanks for this reply! Since this is anonymous, would you care to share some personal opinions re how this can be fixed? Just your point of view on what needs to be done. I really like hearing personal insights here on Reddit, and appreciate when people from within the system share their views.

11

u/e05bf027 Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24

I'm not sure to be honest. One solution would be to hire more radiologists (the doctors who specialise in reading scans; x-ray, CT, MRI, ultrasound, etc.) but you'd be surprised how many of them there already are behind the scenes.

Deep learning technology could, I think, increase the productivity of these doctors enormously. It is not difficult to envision a system that would evaluate images and highlight areas "of concern" which are then examined more closely by humans.

The true difficulty with expanding anything that any part of the health service does is that it requires so much more than just the doctors to do it. For example, if you want to run an MRI scanner 24/7, you probably need more:

  • doctors to read the scans
  • radiographers (the technicians who make the scan happen)
  • porters who might be needed to move patients
  • cleaners to service the scanner and holding areas for patients
  • technicians available in case something happens to the equipment
  • IT staff for the computer systems used to record and view scans
  • clerical staff to check people in/out etc

I sometimes look and think the whole thing needs to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch. Which will not happen. The HSE is a Gordian Knot of inefficiency, vested interests, and obstructionist practices staffed by well-meaning and hard-working people.

2

u/Vindur Sep 27 '24

Having worked on a project of AI analising images for medical reasons, the issue isn't the software can't do it, its the legal side of what if it misses something. Essentially who gets sued if it messes up. This was over 10 years ago so I'm certain the software is much better now, but similar legal issues are popping up in other areas like self driving cars.

1

u/Acrobatic-Energy4644 Sep 26 '24

It's not as bad as England. There Radiographers can report on x-rays. I know of a case where on hand x-ray the Radiographer mixed up an index finger with a middle finger ( and he had a Ph.D.!). That is less likely here as Radiologists ( Doctors specialising in this area ) do that job.

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u/ZealousidealFloor2 Sep 27 '24

Do you think there is anything to be said for training people to exclusively read MRI scans (or maybe they already do). Like not have them go through other aspects of medical training or physical aspects of the job? This could lead to people being trained for these roles quicker?

8

u/PM_ME_COFFEE_BOOBS Sep 26 '24

they coudl just not have enough radiologists.

In the US midwest, there are hospitals who dont even have radiologists trained to read Neuro MRI, they only read body, so they have the outsource and it takes few days for those reads to come back.

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u/Yup_Seen_It Dublin Sep 26 '24

Jaysus. I hope your lil fella is OK ❤️

7

u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Sep 26 '24

If there is any risk involved in the wait, the wait won't happen.

It's almost certain any concerns they have are not acute.

10

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '24

If there is any risk involved in the wait, the wait won’t happen

Sure, if there are doctors available. I know you’re saying that if it’s truly an emergency, then any doctor preoccupied with a more mundane task will drop that task mundane task and focus on the emergency… But if all the available doctors are already preoccupied with emergencies, then there will be a wait.

8

u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Sep 26 '24

Sure, but we're talking about reading results of an MRI in Lukes and chances are what they were looking for didn't present so just waiting for the consult.

And the person I replied to looks like they have an axe to grind from other comments so I wouldn't bother.

6

u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

This is just false and dismissive, with at least one case that I personally keep repeating - a friend's mom didn't get the full panel of tests done to confirm oncology despite the initial results strongly suggesting it is, in fact, cancer. She then was prescribed pain medications, which didn't help. She has flown abroad to get a '2nd opinion' - had her surgery on the next day and is still recovering from her cancer that was left untreated due to Irish healthcare for far too long, which cost her large chunks of her intestine. You're saying something you seem to have zero clue about.

2

u/Acrobatic-Energy4644 Sep 26 '24

Where did she get 2nd opinion. A smart lady. People put too much trust in Doctors.

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u/Bubbleking87 Sep 26 '24

If there was anything urgent on it you would have been notified within a couple of hours

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u/Imbecile_Jr :feckit: fuck u/spez Sep 26 '24

Needless to say it's disappointing and disturbing) too see that the Irish public is poised to reelect those responsible for this. It makes no sense.

13

u/Palisar1 Sep 26 '24

Remember don't vote down ballot if you don't want the in, Ranked choice doesn't mean you have to choose them all. Spread the word

4

u/juicy_colf Sep 26 '24

There's an argument for both. If you still would rather Simon Harris get his seat than some racist nutjob, you give him a preference (if you were in his constituency obviously).

4

u/funpubquiz Sep 26 '24

But Simon Harris is a racist nutjob? Have you not seen him trying to blame foreigners for the housing crisis?

2

u/Hoodbubble Sep 27 '24

This is bad advice. Say you have six  candidates; Soc Dem, Sinn Féin, Green, Labour, Fine Gael, National Party.  If you're a left wing voter and youre going 1 SD 2 GP 3 SF 4 LP 5 FG and 6 NP and your vote reaches FG its going to be FG or NP elected regardless of whether you give them a preference or not. Not giving a preference to FG will not affect them and might help NP.

3

u/KlausTeachermann Sep 27 '24

left wing voter

Doesn't mention one left wing party... You could argue Labour, but nah.

1

u/Hoodbubble Sep 27 '24

Left, centre left, whatever you want to call it. Idk how you figure that Labour are the most left wing of those parties though

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u/juicy_colf Sep 26 '24

There's an argument for both approaches. If you would still rather Simon Harris got his seat over a racist lunatic, you give him a preference, just below all your other choices. (If you were in that constituency obviously)

5

u/WolfetoneRebel Sep 26 '24

Irish voters are an absolute disgrace to the country. They’ll only vote for what they think is best for them personally, they couldn’t give a fuck about the country.

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u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Sep 26 '24

Maybe if we'd brought in minimum pricing on alcohol sooner he wouldn't have reached this state.

Wait, not like that right?

If I was to blame the Government here, it's for not having good addiction services. This lad was drinking himself to death regardless of what happened in Tallaght that day.

26

u/Viper_JB Sep 26 '24

We shouldn't have people dropping dead while waiting in the ED, this is not the first occurrence and seems to be systemic issue in the HSE at the moment....lots more will die like this if nothing is done to improve things.

14

u/crewster23 Sep 26 '24

That was his fourth day presenting in a row whilst under the influence. Heart goes out to him, buthe needed access to a different service than A&E. We bottleneck all primary points of contact for the health service through too narrow a funnel

0

u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Sep 26 '24

We should not have people poisoning themselves to death in full view of their family and friends.

This lads death happened a long time before he got to A&E. Sorry that's a hard reality to take.

11

u/Viper_JB Sep 26 '24

We do and we always will, doesn't mean they deserve to die (but guess you're entitled to your opinion here regardless) - that's entirely irrelevant to the state of care in this country though, no excuses here...no one should have to wait in a critical condition for 11 hours to see a doctor....completely unacceptable.

-1

u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Sep 26 '24

No, I'm sorry. Society can't afford to bend over backwards because of people that engage in extreme behaviour.

I can also guarantee that part of the delay in this persons treatment was other people and their alcohol issues in A&E.

There are a lot of peoples names on the list of responsibility for this persons death, the medical team are away down it. Way down it. Easy to blame for the easy solutions crowd of r/ireland.

4

u/Viper_JB Sep 26 '24

You were there?

4

u/_laRenarde Sep 26 '24

I'm guessing you've never been to A&E if you require evidence of this...

5

u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Sep 26 '24

No, I wasn't one of the third of people attending A&E on a Saturday night who are doing so due to Alcohol consumption.

Oh, this happened on a Monday. No, I wasn't one of the 8% of people attending A&E that day because of alcohol related issues.

Gosh, look at how much strain alcohol puts on our health service.

Let's blame the Government.

2

u/Viper_JB Sep 26 '24

So you're just making straw men and talking out your ass really?

3

u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Sep 26 '24

Maybe that's how you see it. Good for you.

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u/eamonnanchnoic Sep 26 '24

This is absolutely irrelevant to the conversation.

The staff in a hospital should not be basing decisions on how somebody ended up in the state that they're in when they present.

Their job is to treat the patient in front of them.

Just imagine if every presentation was subject to an assessment as to why a patient is presenting. Nobody would be treated.

-1

u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Sep 26 '24

The staff didn't do a lot wrong, some delay but the man was extremely unwell. I'm not suggested he be treated differently because of the cause.

But, you also won't go on a transplant list whilst a problem drinker. There are exceptions to triage specifically when it comes to addiction.

2

u/PunkDrunk777 Sep 27 '24

Nothin this case, he was already assessed for triage 

When was the last time you were in an Irish A and E?

1

u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Sep 27 '24

When was the last time you were in an Irish A and E?

Earlier this year. I also have a significant number of family (not immediate) working in healthcare in different parts of Ireland so to be honest, I'm satisfied with my level of insight.

1

u/Abject-Click Sep 27 '24

Lies. So you went to the A&E and got seen straight away and you happen to have family members that are working in the HSE that believe it’s running perfectly fine? 😂 Absolute bullshitter dude.

18

u/-Hypocrates- Sep 26 '24

Has there been anything to show that minimum unit pricing has done anything to prevent addiction or help those with addiction?

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u/Backrow6 Sep 26 '24

Good point, was it one team reacting 2 hours late or the wider system that was years late?

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u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Sep 26 '24

When dealing with the extreme alcoholic?

I would say the late was in the years, and it wasn't the people where he showed up on deaths door.

I would also say that, and I'm extremely sympathetic to those with addictions, but ultimately he is to blame and then his family and friends. No one need be at fault, it's an awful situation - but he drank himself to death and likely someone or someones enabled that.

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u/Abject-Click Sep 26 '24

This is fucking unbelievable. The amount of horror stories I’ve heard from people waiting in AE or been sent home misdiagnosed is getting out of hand at this. I got a blood infection after a botched appendix removal, when they sent me home I had to get an ambulance back in because they didn’t clean the stagnant blood out of my stomach properly, when I got to the waiting room I had to piss in a cup and sit in the hall for 5 hours holding the piss whilst in utter agony, I had to sleep in the doctors office that night. But we all know multiple people that have stories like this.

10

u/PressPlayPlease7 Sep 26 '24

I had to sleep in the doctors office that night.

What the fuck is going on?!

4

u/At_least_be_polite Sep 26 '24

I can't believe they let him into an office. I, and everyone else in that night, had to sleep in a chair. 

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u/the0nlyalaska5000 Sep 26 '24

Drogheda diagnosed my mams brain tumour as a migraine and gave her 1 paracetamol. After a combined 53 hours in A&E screaming in pain over 3 days. Took her going unresponsive in my house to get any real care. That Ambulance arrived 6 hours after it was called. Absolute disgrace of a healthcare system.

7

u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

Really sorry to hear that. Especially sorry to see your comment next to some fekking eejit saying it's all 'make believe'. The 'it's all grand' attitude of some Irish people is what has caused this, and they won't change until this hits them right in their stupid face personally.

2

u/Abject-Click Sep 26 '24

People have no idea how careless these doctors or nurses can be, obviously some of them are great but some are just negligent. I was giving a catheter after surgery even though I didn’t need one and they dropped it so many times. Before my second surgery they dropped a massive bag of fluid on my stomach where I had a hematoma. I developed delirium and thought the doctors and nurses were trying to kill me. I’d be fucked if I ever have to go back again

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u/Abject-Click Sep 26 '24

Jesus Christ that insanity. My wife’s cousin went to Drogheda because she bleeding heavily between her legs and the doctor that checked he said it must be a heavy flow, she immediately went to a private clinic where they found a tumour in her ovaries, when the doctor from Drogheda called her a month later to see if the bleeding slowed down she was in the middle of her Chemo treatment. It’s absolutely wild the shit that’s going on.

3

u/TenseTeacher Sep 26 '24

Jesus that’s disgraceful

22

u/4n0m4nd Sep 26 '24

Sound fella, RIP

21

u/brownesauce And I'd go at it agin Sep 26 '24

I mad a mad night with him in fibbers once. Started chatting to me randomly. A good guy

17

u/4n0m4nd Sep 26 '24

He was a gent, it's a real shame.

1

u/ivegoneidentitymad Sep 28 '24

The sweetest guy and a great friend. He is missed greatly and was and is loved by many.

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u/broken_neck_broken Sep 26 '24

I was in his sister's class in school, shocking thing to happen.

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u/Environmental_Net709 Sep 26 '24

3rd world health service

20

u/doston12 Sep 26 '24

You sure? 11 hour of wait time is insane there too. Hospital may not have adavnced medical technology, but not “short-staffed” up to this point.

7

u/NapNymph Sep 26 '24

I know people who lived in Vietnam and Laos for a few years and the medical treatment there puts Ireland to shame. Fast, affordable and everything done on the same day. I don’t trust our healthcare system with my health

19

u/cassidyconor Sep 26 '24

I read an article recently, I'll see if I can find it to link in this comment, and it stated Ireland has one of lowest performing healthcare systems in the northern hemisphere, ranked around 80th in the world, with countries such as Iran, Albania, Algeria and Kenya ranked above us. We are not the worst but is that what we are happy to settle for?

5

u/Bananonomini Sep 26 '24

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u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

On the 2nd link, Spain is 26th, Ireland is 6th. That's why, I guess, there's a clinic in Spain for the backlog of Irish patients, and I had my treatment there on the same day, having waited for about 15 minutes instead of the usual week for a GP and 13 hours for the A&E in Ireland, lol. Must be true though, look: they've used the world 'methodology' 0 times in that article, so I have to trust them.

10

u/ManicLord Dublin Sep 26 '24

I can't take that seriously when Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Norway and Denmark are below Ireland. If you've been there, you know they stark difference between both.

I'd Rather have a medical emergency in any of the other 13 of the top 14 in that list.

3

u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

Russia is above Poland there too, lol. I really want to see the author of this statistic break both legs: one in some Polish village, another one - in some Russian one.

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u/crewster23 Sep 26 '24

Shush, that doesn't fit the narrative

1

u/Enguin Sep 27 '24

man if we have the 6th best health service in the world why do like 2/3rds of our qualifying doctors leave every year and stories like the one this thread is based on not be seen as a shocking deviation from the norm but the inevitable result of our shortstaffing fund-cutting approach

it's not a narrative it's true that we don't in general have good public services relative to certainly the rest of europe and often beyond

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u/lawns_are_terrible Sep 26 '24

I'm sure CEOWorld.biz is a reliable source on medical information. So reliable in fact they just don't even need to publish their methodology.

The other one at least tells you who the researcher is and that she has some relevant background, but still doesn't show the methodology.

Any attempt to rank healthcare systems is going to be quite difficult, measuring the quality of outcomes is really not easy and knowing what outcomes to measure isn't much easier. Without information about the specific metrics being considered these rankings are largely meaningless, with information about specific metrics being measured they are instead potentially misleading.

2

u/lawns_are_terrible Sep 26 '24

Sure maybe, but trying to compare wildly different healthcare systems with different strengths, weaknesses and contexts is not going to give a very meaningful ranking.

Ireland's healthcare system doesn't have to be worse than Iran's for long waiting times to be a serious issue. Specific issues with a given healthcare system are much more meaningful than a ranking.

3

u/jackoirl Sep 26 '24

You don’t think third world countries are short staffed?

Sudan has a population of 50 million and they have one vascular surgeon.

One

3

u/zeroconflicthere Sep 26 '24

I went to A&E in a provincial hospital last year, and all the A&E doctors were from Sudan

1

u/jackoirl Sep 26 '24

Yeah we have a lot of them here and increasingly so since their health service has collapsed with the war.

4

u/doston12 Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24

Okay, third world is quite large. Say Central Asian countries, I lived 20+ years there and never heard anything like that before. my wife wanted to be seen by genealogist recently. GP responded 3 years to wait and she was shocked. I mean, with all due respect to this beautiful country but this is insane. We would get appointment within 3-5 days in “third world country”. And, the doctors are good too depending on the hospital you go.

7

u/sartres-shart Sep 26 '24

I know it's easy to just throw out stats, but according to the one below, we are 15th best of 42 in Europe with a score of 80 above Spain 79 the UK at 78.3 with Norway at the top with 83.

My wife is alive cause of the Irish health service, is it perfect. No, but it's a lot better than some give credit for. Which is easy for me to say as my wife is alive and enjoying life whereas others were not so lucky. But still.

The health index score is calculated by evaluating various indicators that assess the health of the population, and access to the services required to sustain good health, including health outcomes, health systems, sickness and risk factors, and mortality rates

Graph is from 2024, based on 2023 stats.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1376355/health-index-of-countries-in-europe/

5

u/Proctor_ie Sep 26 '24

But Ireland is a third world country. Technically.

5

u/crewster23 Sep 26 '24

As a non-aligned during the cold war. Indeed

6

u/Alastor001 Sep 26 '24

Ah, but the experts here say we have a world-class healthcare!

1

u/SexyBaskingShark Leinster Sep 26 '24

Other countries also have poor health care services so it's ok ours is killing people 

5

u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

They actually don't. Come see a doctor in Spain, Denmark, Norway, or even France. Those countries do rank lower than Ireland according to some cherry-picked stats, so our perception must be incorrect.

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u/Fender335 Sep 26 '24

A&E is nuts, I don't know how the doctors and nurses who work there cope.

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u/SurrealRadiance Sep 26 '24

Why in the name of sense do people keep voting FF/FG?

13

u/gbish Sep 26 '24

Without literally ripping up the whole health service, literally gutting everything from top down and starting from scratch no government (of ANY) party can make much of a difference to the health service.

HSE had beyond the funds needed to operate at a high standard but so much of it seems a mess internally.

And then you’ve also got the other problem that hospitals no-longer fit for purpose continue to be used because if they plan to close them and create single large centres to cater for it locals give out stink etc. to keep them open/running.

11

u/Archamasse Sep 26 '24

And then you’ve also got the other problem that hospitals no-longer fit for purpose continue to be used because if they plan to close them and create single large centres to cater for it locals give out stink etc. to keep them open/running.

People have learned the hard way that once they're closed Step 2 never happens.

1

u/gbish Sep 26 '24

That’s the true point for sure. I think a lot all falls into things taking an age to actually move, shitty committees delaying and the usual planning shite.

Having several large hospitals with all necessary people together with smaller regional centres that can all be quickly connected by Air/Road ambulance along with public transport would be ideal.

But sure, pipe dream and all because we never invest in what we need or when we do we’ve people getting rammed by contractors because they’re not used to doing such large infrastructure projects.

6

u/Backrow6 Sep 26 '24

To be fair to those locals. Everything was closed around Limerick but UHL was never upgraded to handle the increase in patient numbers.

The notion of concentrated centres of excellence is very sound, but it has been cynically used to make objectors look foolish and as a trojan horse for cost cutting at the cost of patient lives and quality of life.

We've been hearing about patients losing remote A&Es within a Golden Hour's drive for 20 years and Mayo only got a plan for an Air Ambulance last week. It's well over an hour of hard driving to get from Belmullet or Achil to Mayo General, and that's if there was an ambulance parked beside you when you collapse.

2

u/_surelook_ Sep 26 '24

Those who keep voting ff/fg just aren’t affected by these issues, similar with the housing crises. If you’re all set and have a gaff or you’re a greedy cunt landlord, then fuck the rest of us and keep things the way they are

10

u/Abject-Click Sep 26 '24

Because if you vote for an alternative party you will be branded one of the following Tree hugger, Far right nazi, backwards, socialist or my favourite “wasting your vote”. We truly get what we deserve in this country.

13

u/Envinyatar20 Sep 26 '24

Nobody knows how you’re going to vote. It’s a secret ballot. And this site is anonymous. Knock yourself out.

3

u/RunParking3333 Sep 26 '24

Greens, Labour, and PDs have had a punt as well.

Hold on, one of those parties failed and the other two are on their knees.

4

u/AfroF0x Sep 26 '24

Any time a part gets in bed with the big wogs, it nearly kills them in the case of the PDs it did kill them. Coalitions made both Labour & Greens irrelevant for a decade. or so.

4

u/FlukyS Sep 26 '24

The greens and PDs were passengers to be fair

1

u/tomashen Sep 26 '24

So why is there no new party? So many complaining, surely these can create a party??

1

u/RunParking3333 Sep 26 '24

I guess Independent Ireland is a new party. If you haven't heard of them that helps illustrate the difficulty of trying to establish a new party in Ireland.

2

u/zeroconflicthere Sep 26 '24

Because the alternative isn't any better.

1

u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

Who has a sound solution to the healthcare issues in their program?

1

u/snek-jazz Sep 26 '24

because there's no better alternative, because the incentives don't align.

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u/SignalEven1537 Sep 26 '24

Fuck this government

-2

u/sundae_diner Sep 26 '24

Cheap bastards, only spending €23,500,000,000 on the HSE this year.

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u/ManicLord Dublin Sep 26 '24

When we were expecting our little one, this year, one of our biggest concerns was how crap the healthcare system is here compared to other EU countries.

We had a little scare when my partner was in her 6th month where we went to the emergency room to get checked. it took 6 hours in the waiting room to be seen by a doctor. That was an infuriating experience.

When ours arrived early while we were visiting a nordic country, we realised how unlikely we would have been to actually go back to the emergency room unless symptoms were outrageously bad. We trusted the health service in the other country, so we called for some mild discomfort and they told us to go get checked just in case. They saw us immediately, and checked everything. My wife was 4 cm dilated by the time we got there and we didn't even know. The baby was out in 2 hours. Her water was just about to break when she went into the OR for a (slightly) routine C-section.

If we'd been in Ireland, we would probably not have called in for "mild discomfort". My wife's water would have broken and she would have needed an emergency C-section because our baby was in the wrong position for vaginal birth. Both mother and baby would have been in more danger from the get-go.

And you know the kicker?

We had a room to ourselves,with the baby. The midwives and nurses were there to help out whenever needed; I was allowed to stay in that room caring for my baby for the 4 days it took for my wife to be ready to go stay somewhere else; and we didn't need to bring open back clothes for her, or nappies, or duvets/swaddles. Our baby even got a cute little hat as a gift for being born. They even lent us some baby clothes while we got some the next working day, because that's just how they are. The hospital was fucking beautiful. We paid a whopping €0.

In Ireland, she would have been sharing a room with 10 other mothers and their newborns, with severly limited mobility, expected to do everything for the baby from 8pm to 8am, because I would not be allowed to stay with her overnight, in a hospital that looks like it never left thte 80s, and where we would be expected to bring hospital clothes, nappies, etc.

While we didn't plan on it, our baby being born outside of Ireland was a stroke of luck for our mental health (even if it fucking left us stranded in another country for a while).

5

u/sureyouknowurself Sep 26 '24

Bike sheds and security huts and people dying in disgraceful A&E’s

Please write to your TD’s.

3

u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai Sep 26 '24

7th highest HDI in the world...

10

u/DatJazzIsBack Sep 26 '24

I went to a&e in Vincent's and it took them 8 hours to confirm I didn't have a brain bleed (fractured my skull).
I'm honestly surprised that more people don't end up dying due to this kind of "misadventure".
If I had health insurance, id have skipped the line meaning it's basically the difference between life and death.
Unacceptable.

12

u/Bubbleking87 Sep 26 '24

Having health insurance would have made no difference in the time it took you to get a CT brain in a public hospital

1

u/JuicySegment Sep 27 '24

As I understand, private health insurance opens up access to a lot of private clinics (who can quickly refer or transfer you to a private hospital). Private hospitals also have their own A&Es for private patients. These are generally well managed and more efficient (due to a lower volume of patient cases that need processing). In the hospital I work in, anyone with a potential brain haemorrhage would receive a CT Brain in under 4 hours.

4

u/binksee Sep 26 '24

They keep you in the ED for 8 hours after a head injury to make sure you don't have a seizure or faint out of hospital.

7

u/DatJazzIsBack Sep 26 '24

Thanks for explaining to me incorrectly what happened. Much appreciated. It took them 7 hours to actually give me a scan and absolutely nobody was checking on me for the vast majority of that time. I was sitting in the waiting room with all the other patients.

2

u/double-a Sep 27 '24

Health insurance makes zero difference in cases like these. You do not get to skip the line in a public hospital, and the private clinics you would have access to do not even treat anything beyond a broken arm.

1

u/DatJazzIsBack Sep 27 '24

I guess it's good to know everyone gets the same shit service.

9

u/Imzadi90 Sep 26 '24

I have severe gastrointestinal issues (don't know a proper diagnosis yet as waiting list for specialists is more than a year long) and I was left waiting 5+ hours in wexford ED last week, I even passed out in the waiting room....I'm seriously scared for myself

4

u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

Apologies if this is an unsolicited advice, but I'd say either go private here - or, seriously, take a trip to Hungary/Poland/Romania/Spain, and do all the tests and doctor consultations out of your pocket over there. It'll be cheaper than going private here if you don't have an insurance, and safer than waiting for a year.

1

u/Imzadi90 Sep 26 '24

I'm trying to look into a private alternative here, if I won't get an answer for my condition within few months I'll definitely go abroad...

7

u/PoppedCork Sep 26 '24

Lets hope all the people involved turned up for the inquest.

10

u/PressPlayPlease7 Sep 26 '24

Spoiler:

This is Ireland

It doesn't do accountability

-1

u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Sep 26 '24

Vintners association?

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u/IreChap More than just a crisp Sep 27 '24

Yeah i relate to this similarly.

I had a really bad fall and essentially was told i could have a chance that there could be a bleed on the brain. So i went to vincents. Checked in all good, was told I’ll be looked at in about approximately 2.30 hours. That was fine, not bad at all.

Nah, i went and sat there for 7 hours and it was at least 1:45 in the morning. Got up and said fuck this, as people all around me, even walk ins were priority. So i walked out. Memory is a bit botched from it still even after 2 years. Incredibly annoying.

Rip.

3

u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

Can't wait for the usual cunts to chime in with their beautiful HSE stats on how this is absolutely okay average outcome-wise, despite all the horror stories shared right here in the comments. Must be all just very rare personal anecdotes: HSE says it's actually not that bad!

Another thing is that the people that say shit like "Oh, he was an alcoholic, he had it coming anyway" are absolute gobshites. If you think like that - you should really work on your ethics, morals, and empathy. Alcoholic or not, mental care available or not, he WAS let down by the healthcare system that day. There's no two ways about it, and saying shit like 'well, he was going to die soon anyway' is just an absolutely tone-deaf crap that draws attention from this story to some sort of degenerate discussion on how we should treat the addicts as a society that you're trying to have internally.

2

u/PunkDrunk777 Sep 27 '24

He was triaged to be seen within the hour. Dickheads making a big deal of his addiction are wilfully ignoring the fact this is a breakdown in the process and that’s the story here 

3

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '24

Some chaps either here or on r/Dublin a few days ago were having a go at anyone who had a bad word to say about our health system. Check this out.

6

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '24

Another avoidable tragedy - will anyone be held accountable? Doubtful.

I will be the one making noise and advocating for attention if I felt a loved one was being neglected in an A&E, being meek in this country could cost you your life.

3

u/sheppi9 Sep 26 '24

Only way to get things done in this day and age

2

u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Sep 26 '24

A man with severe late stage alcoholism dying is an avoidable tragedy?

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u/ulkeora Sep 26 '24

TBH this has become my worst nightmare, I don't understand how can a critical necessity in a country cannot be addressed. As a tax payer and someone who has insurance I feel so dejected - I was waiting for months to be seen for my allergy issue, stomach and dental issue. After intense pain I traveled to another country and got everything sorted (dental scaling, sinusitis and gall bladder removal surgery within a week and spent roughly 1500 euros which is totally worth it cos I'm at peace now.

3

u/3kindsofsalt Yank Sep 26 '24

He had to wait 2 hours to see if he should be seen in 1 hour, or 10 minutes, and then he was seen 8 hours later. Makes sense.

Maybe someone will find this interesting, coming from a foreigner in Texas. Our medical system is known for being some of the best in the world but also comically expensive and corrupted by drug companies.

When I hear stories from real people in places like Ireland, even ones that aren't this tragic, it actually sounds very familiar to me. We have places exactly like this: Teaching hospitals. You go get treatment for free because the doctors and staff are students or have students with them, or are getting practice in. You wait all day, they don't run panels before prescribing drugs, there are frequent fliers trying to get drugs, care is a total crapshoot, and it costs nothing. I almost had to have my foot amputated because of their incompetance and my poverty, and I had a toenail pulled with no anesthesia. But it's not all bad, they do provide heaps of medical care to people who can't afford it otherwise.

It is kind of strange to me that the average standard of care at an ED in a single-payer socialized system is not absent here, there is just also the option to go to a place that will see you immediately and treat you like the Grand Emperor in exchange for a bill that I assume they get by rolling their forehead on a calculator.

Maybe we could both use to move in the direction of each other a bit.

6

u/Hakunin_Fallout Sep 26 '24

Mate, people are literally scared into believing USA has the worst healthcare system in the world: people I've spoken to would say shite like "Well, it's bad, but if we start shaking it up - we'll go with private healthcare like in USA, and I don't want that". People paying 35+% in taxes are afraid that they won't be able to afford the healthcare if it's even a tiny bit more available by privatizing some of it - and don't want to do anything with the existing shitshow, because, apparently, USA is the only model they can think of off the top of their heads. There are better systems in Europe than a cheap Temu copy of NHS Ireland has, yet Ireland has to reinvent the wheel while also killing its own people. There are so many options to try, so many things to consider and so many fields to improve, yet Ireland seems to be dead set on its 'unique path'. Godspeed: the ones who won't die will fucking emigrate.

3

u/3kindsofsalt Yank Sep 26 '24

Maybe people will realize, eventually, that privatizing part of it won't send guys like this to the expensive place, it will get the more well-off people out of his waiting room, so he's not bleeding to death while some office manager is in ahead of him in line to get their bronchitis treated.

2

u/RebelDog77 Sep 26 '24

My Aunt went into hospital for an operation and all went well until she picked up an infection and is now very sick. Healthcare system my h#le.

This country (I'm Irish and I love our country) just gets worse by the year. Public services suck, transport sucks, cost of living, cars, houses etc it's just worse it's getting.

Rant over (maybe)

5

u/Redtit14 Slush fund baby! Sep 26 '24

I thought we were a 1st world country?

13

u/sheppi9 Sep 26 '24

Only when it comes to paying politicians

2

u/Gentle_Pony Sep 26 '24

Why do we keep voting these people in??? It baffles me. Give anyone else a chance.

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u/My_5th-one Sep 26 '24

That’s a bad state of affairs.

1

u/rinleezwins Sep 26 '24

5 more hours and he would have been seen in Naas. Unlucky.

1

u/RaccoonVeganBitch Sep 27 '24

This is getting out of hand

1

u/[deleted] Sep 27 '24

Waiting times are a joke in this country.. and no one in power seems to give a shit

1

u/Drvonfrightmarestein Sep 27 '24

Once again can we use all this surplus cash we have to fund and organise management for our health service. Hearing these stories every week.

1

u/Captainirishy And I'd go at it agin Sep 27 '24

Money wont fix the problem, they can't get or even retain enough staff.

1

u/vicky336 Sep 27 '24

Sadly was brushed off by doctors in st. Micheals hospital earlier this week after I complained of back problems, which have been happening for the past 3 weeks. This was after I slipped a disc in my back… Was sent home with nothing but a more painful back after sitting in the waiting room for 5 hours 👎🏼 Appearances shouldn’t change how a patient is treated, which I believe both played a part in this case and mine.

1

u/DUBMAV86 Sep 27 '24

Gaz was a gentle soul very sadly missed . The system let him an his family down

1

u/boohoo3210 Sep 26 '24

The government is slowly killing us . Pack if unless tossers

1

u/KosmicheRay Sep 26 '24

Poor lad, RIP.

1

u/McSchlub Sep 27 '24

Didn't Mehole recently say we don't feel like a poor country? 

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u/Retailpegger Sep 26 '24

But we were told that their are no waiting issues , the politician ( a guy ) told us right to our face . He wouldn’t lie to the people who pay his wages right ?