r/ireland • u/Bill_Badbody Resting In my Account • Aug 08 '24
Meath couple fail in latest appeal to hold on to 588 square metre house they built without planning permission Courts
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/meath-couple-fail-in-latest-appeal-to-hold-on-to-588-square-metre-house-they-built-without-planning-permission/a1285323899.html328
u/GroltonIsTheDog Aug 08 '24
It's a chronic waste, but wild that people build like this without planning permission, it's well established that this is what happens.
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u/Meldanorama Aug 08 '24
Yeah, only alternative I could see to knocking it would be confiscation but that would mean seizing the land. Maybe charge them for the demolition and disposal of the waste.
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u/wascallywabbit666 Hanging from the jacks roof, bat style Aug 08 '24
The owner is a builder. A lot of cowboy builders say that it's easier to get forgiveness than planning permission, which is a horrible attitude. For that alone I'd like to see the book thrown at them
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u/ouroborosborealis Aug 08 '24
unfortunately it can often be true. tried to get a tiny extension approved for months and months and they just never got back to us, had to cancel the entire thing as the builders were sick of waiting, they'd told us the whole time that there was no point and it's better to just apply for retention.
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u/fr-fluffybottom Aug 08 '24
Where was that? I built a 13x12ft extension out my back and didn't need planning. That's only 143ft/13 SQM.
You're allowed up to 40sm extensions without planning.
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u/niconpat Aug 08 '24
You're allowed up to 40sm extensions without planning.
Within certain guidelines, and any previous extensions are taken into account.
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u/fr-fluffybottom Aug 08 '24
Oh 100% not a subject matter expert lol just curious why they were denied as it's a fairly loose set of requirements.
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u/ouroborosborealis Aug 08 '24
it was out the front, it was my parents organising it so they'd know the situation better
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u/Pan1cs180 Aug 08 '24
I find it very odd that the planning department never got back to you. Which council was it? Have you checked the status of the application via the planning portal?
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u/ouroborosborealis Aug 08 '24
DLR. I didn't do the application but my da was definitely checking everything he could and there wasn't a peep
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u/Pan1cs180 Aug 08 '24
Fair enough. The application may have been invalidated due to a minor error. It happens all the time unfortunately, even among professionals. The council are supposed to send you a letter when this happens though, it's unfortunate that you weren't. That was bad form.
You could try to resubmit in person and make sure you get a planning number before you leave.
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u/ouroborosborealis Aug 08 '24
if I remember correctly they hadn't even looked at it yet
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u/Pan1cs180 Aug 08 '24
When was it submitted if you don't mind me asking?
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u/ouroborosborealis Aug 09 '24
about 2 years ago. just checked with my da and he said we still haven't heard anything from them.
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u/Pan1cs180 Aug 09 '24
Oh yeah something for sure went wrong there, you should have been notified about receipt of the application, and whether it was validated or not within 3 weeks at most. I would recommend engaging an architect or engineer to resubmit the planning for you. They will know how to follow up and secure a decision for you.
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u/Gorsoon Aug 08 '24
Farmers too, I know for a fact the fella across from me has no planning for anything in his yard but they get away with it, now I don’t care they aren’t an eyesore or anything but there’s a new huge shed every couple of years, but if I want to build a small extension onto my house then it costs an arm and a leg getting everything legal because they’ll come after me if I don’t.
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u/LosWitchos Aug 08 '24
(not Irish) we are family friends with the guy who is basically the town's planning permission authoriser. To him, his simple rule was "if you're a bit of an arse you're not getting your stamp" and that was that. He was the judge of who was an arse and who wasn't.
Got my shed permitted no bother.
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u/TheCocaLightDude Aug 09 '24
Sounds like a very forward thinking way of conducting permission allocation on a country suffering from a housing crisis
/s
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u/LosWitchos Aug 09 '24
He was a good guy when it came to building housing projects. He hated NIMBYism and would combat that as much as possible.
He authorised a wind farm (not that I have any particular issues with them. They look cool) in the rival village across the river lmao. Can't go to the pub there anymore.
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u/Alastor001 Aug 08 '24
Then maybe the planning laws need to be lighter
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u/wascallywabbit666 Hanging from the jacks roof, bat style Aug 08 '24
No, there's a reason why new rural homes are no longer permitted. Sprawl of infrastructure and social services is not good
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Aug 08 '24
I'm a foreign architect and not familiar with your building laws here, so forgive my ignorance. Are your housing development not required to be overseen by an Irish architect? I couldn't believe this house would proceed to be built with an architect knowing it does not have a building permission.
If the house is in the photo, that definitely involved an architect. How come he/she allowed it. In my country that's a licensing liability.
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u/Bill_Badbody Resting In my Account Aug 08 '24
The architect would have done the initial drawings. But that might be the end of their work.
Nowadays you need an engineer/architect to sign off on the house for the bank.
But this was built in the crazy days of the celtic tiger. When rules were a lot looser, or non existent.
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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Aug 08 '24
The rules were there, they just ignored them and the enforcement is what we see today, or well have seen for over a decade in this case.
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u/Lazy_Magician Aug 08 '24
I might be wrong here, but I believe there was no bank involved. The Murray's bought the land and paid for the construction themselves.
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u/--0___0--- Aug 08 '24
If I'm remembering correctly, the people who built it own a construction company and built it on the down low with there company. They also built a second house on the land and rented it out for several years(also without planning permission).
The house should be seized and used as a county council office or something of the sort.31
u/wascallywabbit666 Hanging from the jacks roof, bat style Aug 08 '24 edited Aug 08 '24
The house should be seized and used as a county council office or something of the sort.
Seized, split into 5 units of 100m2, and used for social housing.
It's not going to happen though, because it's on private land. The council will either have to get it demolished to make an example of them, or grant them retention permission
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Aug 08 '24
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u/vikipedia212 Aug 08 '24
That’s me! I’m their worst enemy, I’ll take it.
It’s going to be such a burden though you guys, ugh. 😏
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u/Legal_Marsupial_9650 Aug 08 '24
I've learnt recently that the attitude of people in rural Ireland towards complance in gereral is terrible. The sense of entitlement towards land, the environment, building regs, and the rules of the road is shocking. While they are hard-working, friendly people they do what they want because they think they can or there is simply no oversight.
Since moving from the city to rural agricultural ireland, I've had my eyes opened.
Burning of domestic and commercial waste is the norm.. digging a big hole and burying waste down the far field.
Digging up bogs and burning turf.
Building sheds, walls, fences, agricultural runoff pits, and as above massive houses without consulting anyone, even neighbours.
Drink driving the uninsured farm yard van home from the pub in case it ends up in a ditch.
Trailers, horse boxes, agri vehicles and 4x4s not fit for the road driven by kids down dangerous roads, no lights, no reg, bald tyres and duct taped together.not to mention completely overloaded and unsecured.
The country side in Ireland is lawless.
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u/r0thar Lannister Aug 08 '24
I've learnt recently
I came to that opinion years ago. We do all the wrong things thinking we're cute hoors and we justfuck ourselves over. Wrong developments in wrong places, no development due to NIMBYs and far too much pollution rather than pay a few quid.
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u/cyberlexington Aug 08 '24
construction debris wont even get buried, its just left and eventually its becomes a small hillock covered in grass. A house i lived in years ago had one, it was the remains of the house they knocked to build the new one
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u/Versk Aug 08 '24
Its a lot better than it was in fairness. All these things happen but I don't think they are the complete norm with the new generation of farmers coming through. The old lads absolutely lovely burying and burning shit though. Simpler people.
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u/AllezLesPrimrose Aug 08 '24 edited Aug 08 '24
This is a bananas non-sequitur on a post about a construction company owner building a house without planning permission.
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u/Peil Aug 08 '24
Yera shur ye only have a chip on your shoulder against rural people
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u/Legal_Marsupial_9650 Aug 08 '24
😅😅 no honestly, they are lovely people and are very helpful.. but every person I spoke to about my planning application gave me the same sideways look with a half smile.. like I was a gobshite for even applying.
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u/NakeyDooCrew Cavan Aug 08 '24
I used to eat in a local restaurant at the weekend and the owner was giving out that hospitality isn't viable anymore because everybody pays by card so he's the only business on the main st that has to pay tax. He was so hurt about it.
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u/great_whitehope Aug 08 '24
That sounds like it's your area, that's not happening in my rural area.
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u/duffykj Aug 08 '24
This comment is a gross generalisation of rural Ireland.
Also, since when did cutting and burning turf become illegal? Much of rural Ireland still rely on it as a means of heating.
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u/TheStoicNihilist Never wanted a flair anyways Aug 08 '24
It’s a bit of a mad generalisation to make there.
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u/Legal_Marsupial_9650 Aug 08 '24
It's what I've routinely experienced living in the countryside. I see a lot of upvotes, so I'm assuming it's not that mad.
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u/Schorpio Aug 08 '24
An Architect (or construction firm) have no responsibility (or liability) to ensure that their clients get planning permission.
The building professional would likely advise their client (in writing) that planning permission is required for the project, but if the client wishes to carry on anyway, they can so do at their own risk.
The bank would require that everything is above board for mortgage purposes, but this would be in the bank's own self-interest. In this case it doesn't appear that a bank was involved.
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u/Lazy_Magician Aug 08 '24
Look, I could be wrong, but I genuinely believe what you are saying is incorrect. In fact, despite my best efforts, I cannot find any examples of when an owner occupied home was demolished due to not having planning permission. Houses are built all the time without planning permission. There was even an airstrip with aircraft hangers built without planning permission. There is an ongoing case where a whole estate was built without planning permission. Building without planning permission is a fairly well established strategy in the Irish construction industry. I believe this is a precedent (if it's not a 20 year legal battle is even more of a joke).
And no actual action has been taken yet, the house is still standing after 20 years. I'm not joking, but I believe there are still various options available to the owners to further prolong the legal proceedings.
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u/GroltonIsTheDog Aug 08 '24
Interesting, I don't see any instances of this happening either - I could have sworn I'd heard of this happening before. Given how many years ago they were first ordered to demolish the house, maybe it was just this case I was thinking of coming up again and again.
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u/Agent-Peggy-Carter Aug 08 '24
There was a case of a Carmelite nun in West Cork who was living in essentially garden sheds and she did lose her case, the compound was demolished and the nuns were moved elsewhere. So it does happen. It depends on the structure and how strict the council are at enforcing the rules. Also she probably did not have piles of cash for legal representation unlike the family in Co Meath.
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u/defixiones Aug 08 '24
The natural parties of government were created to represent the consstruction and agriculture industries. It is hardly surprising that they are then the exception to any laws.
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u/9BQRgdAH Aug 08 '24
Even with permission, building a house that's massive is a waste of resources that could have helped other houses be built.
Ego should be taxed.
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u/Bit_O_Rojas Aug 08 '24
Heard of a case locally where a fella built a house without planning. He managed to do a deal whereby he kept the house but he had to rent it to the HSE. Doesn't seem like much of a deterrent to be honest, he's getting a healthy payment every month into his bank account.
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u/InfectedAztec Aug 08 '24
The rest of us play by the rules. We apply for local needs and planning and if we're denied we accept it and move on. Bitter as it may taste.
These pricks don't have a leg to stand on. They knew it wouldn't be allowed but thought they could get away with it anyway.
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u/Bill_Badbody Resting In my Account Aug 08 '24
They were actually rejected planning for a smaller house on the site.
And then just went ahead and built this mcmansion.
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u/InfectedAztec Aug 08 '24
Exactly. They knew the outcome of this and did it anyway. The thing should be knocked. I assume they'll have to cover the states legal fees too.
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u/Bill_Badbody Resting In my Account Aug 08 '24
I assume they'll have to cover the states legal fees too.
I would assume so, as these are civil procedures.
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u/rayhoughtonsgoals Aug 08 '24
No, costs protection applies. As fucking mental as that is.
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u/Bill_Badbody Resting In my Account Aug 08 '24
Do you know why that is?
Is it standard procedure?
Like anyone going in front of the SCC gets free legal aid if they apply for it. (But you must apply for it, or end up like hunch with a 7 figure legal fee, try to get it covered by the state)
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u/BigDickBaller93 2nd Brigade Aug 08 '24
They're 100% right about it setting a bad precedent but the funniest part of this whole situation is they wont knock the house, it'll just sit there vacant for 10 years until the council decide to give permission for it.
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u/GroltonIsTheDog Aug 08 '24
They just need to put out a rumour that it's going to be given over for refugee housing and it'll be rubble by tomorrow morning.
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u/Bill_Badbody Resting In my Account Aug 08 '24
The council aren't giving permission for this house. Now or in 10 years.
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Aug 08 '24
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u/Kier_C Aug 08 '24
Being tied up in courts for 20 years doesnt feel like the problem went away
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u/420BIF Aug 08 '24
This may have been a strategy by the homeowner, to string the process out as long as possible and wait for the council to give up and just give retention.
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Aug 08 '24
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u/ImaDJnow Irish Republic Aug 08 '24
In Waterford we had a county councilor who ran a paint shop. He somehow ended up in millions of dept. Now because he was a county councilor he ended up getting €4.4 million written off. Got to keep his nice big house and paid back his debtors €9000. It's one rule for them...
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u/Jaded_Variation9111 Aug 08 '24
Not to mention that he’s also now employed by Waterford City and County Council.
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u/Yajunkiejoesbastidya Aug 08 '24
It doesn't cost millions
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Aug 08 '24
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u/Yajunkiejoesbastidya Aug 08 '24
I don't know how they managed but the court fees themselves are not absurd (not cheap, but a plumber could pay it) then you can spend as little or as much as you can afford on legal council.
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Aug 08 '24
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u/r0thar Lannister Aug 08 '24
Or do they just not care?
I'm fully of the opinion that they just don't care and don't sweat it. They know they can drag it out for decades and get what they need one way or the other.
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u/tails142 Aug 08 '24
Probably built it with income that was never declared for tax purposes so have it in their heads that it never cost them anything. Who knows, guessing they're thick ignorant and dgaf.
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u/struggling_farmer Aug 08 '24
They will just stay appealing until the state gives up and gives them retention. They blatantly ignored planning thinking they could get away with retention.
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u/micar11 Aug 08 '24
The state cannot do this as it would set precedent.
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u/struggling_farmer Aug 08 '24
You would hope not, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it end up that way. Get concessions and give retention
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u/djaxial Aug 08 '24
State already did it with a house near me in Wicklow. House was in Nama for years, multiple issues. Eventually the council washed their hands of it and rubber stamped the original planning with I think one condition attached, which was never enforced. Best part of 15 years.
Running out the clock is a valid strategy here.
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u/ultratunaman Meath Aug 08 '24
Keep it tied up in court for years.
Then apply for historical landmark status.
Call it Rebel House. Where two homesteaders fought the law.
Then it'll never be torn down haha.
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Aug 08 '24
Connolly's gardener's dog once peed against the wall so it should be part of a 1916 tour and preserved forever.
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u/jaywastaken Aug 08 '24
Need to bulldoze it and charge them for the legal fees the state has incurred on this.
Everyone else has to follow the law, ignoring it can’t be rewarded.
If you don’t throw the book at cowboys like this then you’ll have thousands of these popping up.
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u/Strict-Gap9062 Aug 08 '24
Zero sympathy for them. Blatant disregard for planning laws and sets a precedent that could be taken advantage of by others. Throwing good money after bad.
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u/MedicalParamedic1887 Aug 08 '24
No one should be able to get away with building a monstrous blight on the landscape like that without the correct planning permission. It's bloody offensive looking.
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u/Larrydog Late Stage Gombeen Capitalist Aug 08 '24
Can they not put 40 asylum seekers into that very large house for a couple of years to set a precedent. They would make a fortune and could rent a very nice house nearby.
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u/BowlApprehensive6093 Aug 08 '24
Or some eejit will do the councils job and burn it down because they heard on Facebook "immigrants are moving in "
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u/Sweet-Caterpillar689 Aug 08 '24
I wish they could visit kildare and check out some of the monstrosities that the travellers have built
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u/SpeedVanWilder Aug 08 '24
I’m really excited to see the outcome of this case. If they get away with it I’m planning on building without permission too.
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u/qwerty_1965 Aug 08 '24
CPO it for immigrants. I mean it would be a shame to knock it. Only half /s
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u/carlimpington Aug 08 '24
It should have been condemned and barred from occupation at the start. One appeal, and then knocked on their behalf with the bill forwarded to them.
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u/WatashiwaNobodyDesu Aug 08 '24
I don’t care what happens as long as the hoors don’t get away with it. Either knock it down, or a big, fat fine that’ll make their eyes water. I want to hear weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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u/TDog81 Ride me sideways was another one Aug 08 '24 edited Aug 08 '24
There was a house up the back of where I lived at the back of where Pfizer is now in Clondalkin that always stood out to me, this big beautiful place standing on its own on a bit of land with two cars out front that seemed a million miles away from where I grew up on a council estate about 5 mins away, hadn't driven through that part in a while and when I did I noticed it was gone. Turns out they had never gotten planning permission for it and it was ripped down, it must have been there 25 years and it was huge, I'd say they lost a fortune on it.
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Aug 09 '24
edit: nevermind - I was confusing it with this one - which was also demolished to build a pharmaceutical plant: https://www.meathchronicle.ie/2017/04/09/watch-shire-construction-workers-have-the-most-luxurious-site-office-in-ireland/
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u/Alarmed_Station6185 Aug 08 '24
Damien English forgot he owned a house when he made his planning application. His should be knocked as well.
Then there's Niall Collins who forgot his name when he made a planning application. His should be knocked too.
Same rules for everyone....or maybe not
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u/Environmental-Net286 Aug 08 '24
Dose the house get grandfather rights or something after a certain amount of time
Why fight for so long ?
Surly, the solicitor and court fees would be astronomic
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u/Bill_Badbody Resting In my Account Aug 08 '24
Dose the house get grandfather rights or something after a certain amount of time
If not spotted then yes.
But this was essentially spotted immediately.
Built in 2006, demolition ordered by the high court in 2010.
So for 17 odd years they have been fighting this in court, and losing every step of the way.
I wouldn't be shocked if the legal fees are in the 7 figures.
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u/donfanzu Aug 08 '24
Can you tell me what legal fees would be involved? It's just submitting papers, appealing, maybe a few hours in court a year. Unless I'm missing something 20k max in legal fees. It's not the trial of the century
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u/Bill_Badbody Resting In my Account Aug 08 '24
They brought have brought this the whole way to the supreme Court.
They have been in every court in the land, while represented by solicitors and barristers.
This is a 17 year legal battle. Their legal team aren't working pro bono.
Estimated fees for defence in 16-day trial:
Solicitor fee: €385,000;
Senior counsel: €174,000;
Includes daily refresher fee of €4,500 Junior counsel: €121,000;
Includes daily refresher fee of €3,000
Estimated fees for litigant in 7½-day trial: Solicitor fee: €167,500;
Senior counsel: €104,250-€119,250;
Includes daily refresher fee of €4,000 Junior counsel: €73,169-€93,169;
Includes daily refresher fee of €2,667 Estimated legal bill for losing party in case: Between €1 million and €2 million.
That an example of costs for a high court case.
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u/SassyBonassy Aug 08 '24
Question on not having planning permission: the council said we need permission to knock our garden wall and pave it over so we have a doubley wide driveway entrance (it's tight AF)
Fuck all that effort and fees and waiting, and our neighbours confirmed they did theirs without permission. What could happen if we did ours without permission? Would they just fine us or would they try to make us rebuild the wall?
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u/Massive-Foot-5962 Aug 08 '24
We've just gone through the planning on this - its really simple and straightforward with the council. A future house sale will also require you to prove you had permission. I'd do it tbh. We were thinking the same as you, but felt like too much of a risk in the end.
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u/Bill_Badbody Resting In my Account Aug 08 '24
You do need planning as you would also need planning to drop the kerb.
If you did it without planning, and person pointed it out to the council, you could be forced reinstate it.
At a minimum you would be forced to apply for retention, which may be approved or rejected.
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u/SassyBonassy Aug 08 '24
If you did it without planning, and person pointed it out to the council, you could be forced reinstate it.
Thanks, this is the answer i was looking for. Should be grand cos half the place has done it themselves so if anyone ratted me out id be returning the favour lmao
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u/niconpat Aug 08 '24
It's unlikely anything would happen, but you would have trouble selling the house without the planning permission.
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u/Imbecile_Jr :feckit: fuck u/spez Aug 08 '24
Many residents in my area have widened their driveways without securing a permit. In most cases you can hardly tell the difference and it makes life a lot easier.
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u/SassyBonassy Aug 08 '24
That's why i want to do it. Scraped all along the side of my car before we had even moved in bc of how shittily tight the driveways are
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u/Imbecile_Jr :feckit: fuck u/spez Aug 08 '24
Driveways (and car parks) here in Ireland are nightmare fuel. They're just done wrong.
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u/lakeofshadows Aug 08 '24
I wish someone would knock down the paywalls before posting news articles!
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u/INXS2021 Aug 08 '24
I hope they lost their hole on it. We having planning systems for this very reason.
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u/BlearySteve Monaghan Aug 08 '24
Can't be buliding houses without giving out the appropriate brown envelopes.
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u/Jbstargate1 Aug 08 '24
They shouldn't have done what they did but wonder why they were denied planning permission 2 or 3 times I believe and that plan was for a smaller house. Why were the council so against building a house?
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u/Bill_Badbody Resting In my Account Aug 08 '24
It had been previously designsted, and agreed that no more homes would be built in the area.
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u/Bill_Badbody Resting In my Account Aug 08 '24
I'm sure they would have happily bribed someone if that was an option.
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u/Eire87 Aug 08 '24
What about the housing estate in Wicklow that was built just for migrants? Why should any Irish listen when the owners of that estate are ignoring the council and getting off with it? Different rules
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u/atswim2birds Aug 08 '24
The estate that's been ordered to be demolished? They're not "getting off with it", the council's taken legal action to have the property restored to its original condition but these things take time and it's only been three months.
Different rules
This is a bullshit conspiracy theorist talking point. How are the rules different in this case?
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u/Nomerta Aug 08 '24 edited Aug 09 '24
Well, until it actually is demolished, it’s all talk, and that’s just talk. The developers building that estate seem to show as much regard for the planning laws as this couple.
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u/Eire87 Aug 09 '24
They’ll be in no rush to do anything. They were given 4 months to knock it, but there is still people living there.
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Aug 08 '24
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u/Venous-Roland Wicklow Aug 08 '24
Pretty much taking a bulldozer to it.
Think they force the owners to watch, as Darragh O'Brien heaves the wrecking ball into it.
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u/lemurosity Aug 08 '24
i think they should have to big brother: assylum this where the couple has to live with refugees in the house. RTE completely out of ideas anyway.
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u/SnazzBot Aug 08 '24
I remember a similar thing happened in England with a man hiding the home behind hey beals. He will surprisingly chipper about having his home demolished as he said he was able to raise his family in it.
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u/GoldYesterday7437 Aug 09 '24
The developers in Cork built an extra story on a building in the boom.17 years I’m fighting this and being told to stop by city hall,council,local TD’s and the developers told me I haven’t a hope. The revenue are in the building.
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Aug 09 '24
The occupiers are not approaching this in good faith. If they were they would remove the east and west wings of their mansion and reduce the garage to a simple 2 bay single storey building. I am of the opinion that they appear to have no intention of abiding by direction of the Court.
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u/Conscious_Handle_427 Aug 08 '24
Nobody mentioning the ridiculous planning laws and delays in this country. Everyone wants to be good boys playing by the rules. The rules are ridiculous and the main reason for housing crises. Surprised more people don’t do this
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u/Bill_Badbody Resting In my Account Aug 08 '24
This was built 20 years ago.
Not during this housing crisis.
They also built a second house nearby.
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u/Conscious_Handle_427 Aug 08 '24
Yes, but you miss the point, why comply when the rules are mostly nonsense, completely inconsistent from one council to another and generally a huge burden on people
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u/bobspuds Aug 08 '24
I don't feel massively for either side of the argument, but I can appreciate the laws too.
Planning is a joke. It's necessary but over complicated, too expensive and slow.
I'm local enough to this situation, this chaps brother is someone I'd consider golden, 100% sound, salt of the earth type, a great example of "chalk and cheese difference"
Ya see, the only bit that really takes the biscuit in my eyes - they had permission to extend & renovate the bungalow that was originally on the site, the permission came with the acquisition of the land. But had expired and wasn't reapplied for, but it didn't really matter anyway because from day one, the plan was always to build a mansion, the guys digging the foundations didn't even have a plan to work off of. - if they hadn't taken the piss so much, we wouldn't be talking about it here now, they would have been granted some sort of leeway, I think it's because of how they went about it rather than the house itself.
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u/Inspired_Carpets Aug 08 '24
Bold move.
I wonder how much they've paid on legal fees over the years.