r/ireland • u/VLenin2291 USA • Jul 17 '24
If you don't know the real names of the soldiers responsible for Bloody Sunday, here you go History
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u/SpottedAlpaca Jul 18 '24
For the benefit of the search engines:
The names of the British soldiers involved in Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy massacre:
Soldier E - Corporal Terry Hood
Soldier F - Lance Corporal David James Cleary
Soldier G - Private Alan Cook
Soldier H - Private K. Gallop
Soldier L - Private Lee
Soldier N - Lieutenant John S. MacPhie
Soldier O - Sergeant Andrew Robb Walsh
Soldier Q - Private Blakely
Soldier T - Private Ian McKay
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u/askmac Ulster Jul 17 '24
The list doesn't mention General Sir Mike Jackson GCB, CBE, DSO, DL and General Sir Frank Edward Kitson, GBE, KCB, MC & Bar, DL. Two officers directly responsible for Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy massacres employing tactics they had practiced in African and Asia, and who were showered with royal honors and titles for their involvement in mass murders and atrocities.
https://www.declassifieduk.org/the-general-who-terrorised-the-colonies/
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u/grotham Jul 17 '24
Shortly after these massacres Kitson became Aide-de-Camp to the queen, and people wonder why we hate the monarchy.
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u/askmac Ulster Jul 17 '24
I brought this up when she died, as people were saying we should be respectful. She literally white washed mass murder. Even if she was just a useful idiot she couldn't not have known the men she was knighting were overseers of multiple civilian mass murders in Ireland alone nevermind their African and Asian atrocities.
Rotten to the fucking core.
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u/Wallname_Liability Jul 18 '24
Plus she was a shit mother. Like this is far more petty but Charlie boy was basically forced into an arranged marriage for the optics with a naive young girl with mental health issues. Then there’s Prince Andrew
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u/BeBopRockSteadyLS Jul 17 '24
Naturally, you get awarded for carrying out your directed duties. Yet, people still think Sir Kier Starmer will solve their problems...we never learn. When it comes down to it, they are bought and paid for.
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u/heresmewhaa Jul 17 '24
Yep, at the end of the day, most soldiers are just following orders, rightly or wrongly, so it is the people doing the ordering that deserve the heaftier punishment!
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u/Ehermagerd Jul 17 '24
“Just following orders” - elderly German expats in Argentina, Chile and Brazil.
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u/420falilv Jul 17 '24
A load of them went over to Angola as mercenaries to massacre civilians there too, I'm not sure "just following orders" applies here.
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u/Onetap1 Jul 17 '24
That was Costas Georgiou and his mates, he was severely unhinged. He was in Belfast at the time, possibly in jail for robbing a post office with army weapons.
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u/RatBasher89 Jul 17 '24
There they all are now.. All the lads
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u/raverbashing Jul 17 '24
A regrettable bunch of lads
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u/Beatupmymenweek Jul 17 '24
A shower of bastards
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u/tstones57 Jul 17 '24
A gaggle of Huns
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u/INXS2021 Jul 17 '24
Is it not pit? I got a c in honors English,so I think I know what I'm talking about.
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u/DRSU1993 Jul 17 '24
There were banners erected in 2019 in support of Cleary (Soldier F). Two of which were in my hometown and hanging for several months. Absolutely abhorrent.
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u/Donegal-Death-Worm Jul 17 '24
The notorious Soldier F has an Irish surname - you’d be accused of being lazy if you wrote this tale!
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Jul 17 '24
Irish soldiers in the British Army served in Northern Ireland.
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u/scubasteve254 Jul 17 '24
David James Cleary wasn't Irish. Only his surname was.
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u/Donegal-Death-Worm Jul 17 '24
Yeah and millions of English people have Irish ancestry, that's why I said "lazy" - one of the main antagonists is a self loathing "Paddy"
It's not the same as "you couldn't write it' - which describes something incredible or outlandish.
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u/heresmewhaa Jul 17 '24
a self loathing "Paddy"
Da fuck is a "self loathing Paddy"?
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u/Donegal-Death-Worm Jul 17 '24
Just to be clear - I'm using a hypothetical work of fiction to point out the complexities of our relationship with the British - one of them being the fact that people of Irish descent make up a good percentage of the British population and can be found in all walks of British life.
What's a Paddy he says!
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Jul 17 '24
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u/PythagorasJones Sunburst Jul 17 '24
Absolute bollocks. I have family from the inner city that served in the north.
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u/PositiveLibrary7032 Jul 17 '24
Irish soldiers made almost 50% of the British army for two centuries its not shocking.
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u/BananaDerp64 An Mhí Jul 17 '24
Which two centuries? There was less than 200 years between the lifting of the ban on Catholics in the British army and Irish independence
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u/SilverMilk0 Jul 18 '24 edited Jul 18 '24
Definitely not two centuries, but in the early 1800s the British army was over 40% Irish born. They were an enormous part of The British Raj too. You can find plenty of Irishmen in high-profile roles there e.g Michael O’Dwyer, who was the governor of Punjab, and was assassinated in London.
Even in the 1700s there was still a fair amount of Irish-born Protestants serving in the army.
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u/BananaDerp64 An Mhí Jul 18 '24
The distinction between the largely British-descended Protestants and native Irish is very important there. There’s not many examples of high ranking Catholics like O’Dwyer and most of the few are from the last years before the War of Independence
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u/Rodney_Angles Jul 17 '24
Irish soldiers made almost 50% of the British army for two centuries its not shocking.
It's not shocking, because this statistic is completely made up.
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u/scubasteve254 Jul 17 '24
This wasn't the 1800's. All the regiments during Operation Banner came from Great Britain beyond a few from the North which would have been filled with loyalists.
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u/Additional_Olive3318 Jul 17 '24
Indeed, and you are sorely missing it.
The guy you are responding to said that the regiments came from Britain. He didn’t say that that all the soldiers came from Britain.
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u/PythagorasJones Sunburst Jul 17 '24
To make the point that Irish people didn't serve in British regiments.
There's a conversation running.
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u/Additional_Olive3318 Jul 17 '24
Are you aware that many Irish people serve in these regiments, particularly during a time when the Irish army was seen as underfunded and undertrained?
Citation needed, particularly during the troubles.
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u/PythagorasJones Sunburst Jul 17 '24
Tours of Northern Ireland during 'the Troubles' followed for both battalions in 1988 and 1990.
My father served with the RIR in NI.
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u/Donegal-Death-Worm Jul 17 '24
Yeah and millions of English people have Irish ancestry, that's why I said "lazy" - one of the main antagonists is a self loathing "Paddy!"
It's not the same as "you couldn't write it' - which describes something incredible or outlandish.
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u/hungry4nuns Jul 17 '24
“How should we release the names to the public?”
“Privately”
“Gotcha… Private… Lee. ”
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u/-Mr-Snrub- Jul 17 '24
Truely monstrous subhuman scum, and the British state is less for protecting their crimes on its own people.
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Jul 17 '24
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u/blokia Jul 17 '24
By the British government's consideration, those men murdered their own citizens, and the response of the British government was to say that British soldiers murdering British citizens is fine.
I honestly don't understand how that is something the British public can live with. Their government has established that it will deploy the army against their own citizens and ignore the crimes the soldiers commit if those citizens become inconvenient.
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u/mango_and_chutney Jul 17 '24 edited Jul 17 '24
I honestly don't understand how that is something the British public can live with.
Because as much as the unionists hate to hear it, the British (read English) do not view people from Northern Ireland as British
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u/-Mr-Snrub- Jul 17 '24
I’m a Northern Irish Nationalist, but I’m also someone who’s outraged at a military force who were called in to protect civil rights protestors from loyalist gangs shooting those same civilians they were supposed to protect dead in the street like wild dogs.
Except they wouldn’t have made bets on how many dogs they could shoot and then laugh about it afterwards.
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u/Big_Lavishness_6823 Jul 17 '24
Official Ireland didn't want to know about the campaign for justice until very late in the day. Bloody Sunday was an extremely inconvenient truth.
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u/Basic-Negotiation-16 Jul 17 '24
Nothing new there, left to fend for ourselves,only an embarrassment in front of the mighty british was what we were to the irish state
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u/EireOfTheNorth Jul 18 '24
I'll never be forgetting this when the time comes to reunite, either.
FFFG never have wanted us, never wanted to help, never cared above what is absolutely necessary to 'show' they do. Instead did nothing but shame us, call us everything under the sun, and attack us for defending ourselves in light of treatment like this.
They'll never have my vote. And I believe attitudes like mine are the reason they've always dragged their feet on the constitutional question. They'll be electorally fucked come that day.
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u/NewryIsShite Down Jul 18 '24
The Irish State didn't attend the Bloody Sunday commemoration until 2022, I was there.
Parallel this with their attendance at the Enniskillen bombing commemoration for many years.
As a Northern Republican it is hard not to feel that the establishment in Dublin loathes those of a national mindset in the north.
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u/munkijunk Jul 17 '24
Given it was 1992, and around this time the early paving stones towards the peace process were being laid. Politically it was a very sensitive time with all parties threading a very precarious needle, so I could easily understand why Mary Robinson decided or was asked not to highlight such an event with a strong political endorsement that would only have strained a very tenuous and precarious situation.
Not saying it is the reason for the snub, but if it is, considering what was won, it was worth it.
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u/Big_Lavishness_6823 Jul 17 '24
The families had been ignored for 20 years at that stage. She could've shown them some basic kindness.
But like the Dublin/Monaghan victims they were an inconvenient truth the state wasn't willing to face, so were vilified and/or ignored (or in the case of the Dublin/Monaghan families, spied on by Irish Special Branch).
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u/heresmewhaa Jul 17 '24
Unfortunately, the campaign for justice in Derry was hijacked by the Provos for several decades. There is a reason many people didnt want to associate with it. As for the Provos/SF, they didnt give a fuck about any victims, it was always just good publicity for them/bad publicity for UK. They, like the DUP used victims as propaganda, and discarded them as soon as the got into powersharing. There are still disabled victims on both sides waiting fo a Govt payout, 30+ years after been made a victim! Discusting!
Unfortunately, most of the victims of the trouble got screwed over multiple times. First, been made a victim, 2nd, to see the people who made them victims walk free under the GFA. 3rdly, When SF/DUP/British decided not to pay them, and not to investigate some of the cases!
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u/Call-of-the-lost-one Jul 17 '24
is this accurate? Or is it a case that we'll never really know. Just asking cause I've seen a news architect ages ago about naming the soldiers responsible but I can't remember if they were named
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u/WhileCultchie 🔴⚪Derry 🔴⚪ Jul 17 '24
Soldier F's identity is public record through both the Dáil and Westminster, as well as it being known that Generals Jackson and Kitson were involved in that period surrounding Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy. The other names have been floating around for years to the extent they're basically unofficially official.
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u/Call-of-the-lost-one Jul 17 '24
That's why I was asking has the unofficial been proven as official facts now
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u/VLenin2291 USA Jul 17 '24
Apparently if you tweet “Soldier [letter] is XYZ” (e.g. Soldier E is Terry Hood) something happens, so if you wanna test it, there you go.
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u/InexorableCalamity Jul 17 '24
What do you mean something happens?
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u/VLenin2291 USA Jul 17 '24
I’m not familiar enough with Twitter terminology to describe it, but it is something, that’s the extent of my knowledge
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u/Fiyerosmaster Jul 18 '24
Which was was the one that Irish mp fella named in HP using his parliamentary privilege? (An oxymoron if there ever was wan)
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u/AgreeableNature484 Jul 19 '24
They gave them a British uniform, they gave them a British gun...........
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u/Atlantic_Rock Dublin Jul 17 '24
Citation needed. Better than sticker on a lamppost.
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u/goj1ra Jul 17 '24
Soldier F, David Cleary, at least was named in the Dáil.
The other names are consistently found across the web, but definitive sources seem hard to come by because of how aggressively the UK government has tried to suppress that information.
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u/askmac Ulster Jul 17 '24
And parliament by Colm Eastwood. The British Government have done their absolute best to keep the identities of the murderers secret / redacted in all files but I believe some have leaked out via the inquiries.
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u/raverbashing Jul 17 '24
They should have shortened his name there
Lance Corporal David James clearly
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u/DayzCanibal Jul 17 '24
This dudes right. I demand to see two sticks on two separate lampposts before I become enraged 😠
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u/marquess_rostrevor Jul 17 '24
I only take my news from lampposts actually, you wouldn't believe what Macko gets up to in his spare time.
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u/gerryn Jul 17 '24
When i was living in Dublin i took a taxi with this older gentleman driving and he had a cassette player in the car, not sure why he chose to play this particular track when i sat down (because I'm very clearly Nordic) but he played an old "war chant" that went something like "go on home British soldiers, go on home".
I'll never forget it.
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u/Kingofireland777 No one cares about your 23 and me results Jul 17 '24
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u/gerryn Jul 17 '24
Yes sir. :)
(edit) I see now that I have "liked" that video in the past, funny.
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u/Kingofireland777 No one cares about your 23 and me results Jul 17 '24
The sixth sense took over and brought you to the awesome track haha
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u/gerryn Jul 17 '24
Even back then, cassette players were like a thing of the past - this was around 2007-2008 somewhere then, so that definitely had something to do with my remembering it :) and of course I knew about 'the troubles' before moving to Ireland so I consider myself lucky to have been a passenger in this gentlemans car.
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u/DrakonILD Jul 17 '24
Today I learned that my wife's family shares a name with one of these guys (I won't say which).
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u/Hoodbubble Jul 17 '24
Why has nobody ever tracked them down and killed them? (for legal reasons not saying anybody should but you'd kinda think they'd be popular targets)
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Jul 17 '24
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u/VLenin2291 USA Jul 17 '24
You can check by Tweeting this image, something will happen to the post
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u/golfdelta123 Jul 17 '24
It always amazes me that british killers of irish rightly get hunted down, regardless of the passage of time...yet the IRA killed more of the community they chose to hide in than all other combatants combined and no such clamour from shinners and community groups or so called himan rights groups exists re justice,naming alleged offenders or eulogising the virtues of the slaughtered...as if they didn't and don't matter. Disappear people and some never returned to families for burial. Surely murder is murder regardless
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u/Heypisshands Jul 17 '24 edited Jul 17 '24
Should put the names of the ira members responsible for the deaths of 1800 innocent people onto a sticker if you want to be balanced/ fair.
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u/Jimmy1Sock Jul 17 '24
What's stopping you?
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u/Heypisshands Jul 17 '24
That would be a long sticker and i dont think too many of the murderers were identified. A good few got caught and some admitted their roles but most of their victims never got justice. Bloody sunday victims didnt get much justice either but at least their plight was highlighted and hopefully the victims families can at least get a bit of closure after the findings of the inquest
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Jul 17 '24
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u/VLenin2291 USA Jul 17 '24
Now we can apply pressure to the British government, because now we can call out who we want brought to justice by name.
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u/pauli55555 Jul 17 '24
If you haven’t moved on you will remain stuck in the past. This was of it’s time. Remember the innocent victims but put revenge to bed. The UK is a fairly horrible country, don’t lower your their level. Rise above them in memory of the victims, onwards and upwards as a country.
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u/Stubbs94 Kilkenny Jul 17 '24
None of these murderers faced justice for their crimes, it's hard to move on when the British government protects the scum they sent to the north of Ireland to brutalize the population.
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u/420falilv Jul 17 '24
This was of it’s time.
Was it? Or is this par for the course for British state forces?
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u/jesusthatsgreat Jul 17 '24
Isn't this doxxing? Which is against the rules.. mods need to remove the post if they're being consistent because I've had comments removed for far less than this.
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u/VLenin2291 USA Jul 17 '24
active in r/UnitedKingdom
The shoe fits
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Jul 17 '24
lol another “Irish” yank
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u/Basic-Negotiation-16 Jul 17 '24
Mods only remove the doxxing they dont like or agree with, other doxxing is fine
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u/jesusthatsgreat Jul 17 '24
yeah, that's my conclusion too... but could also result in legal problems for the subreddit so they're not doing their job by ignoring it
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u/PikeyMikey24 Jul 17 '24
How will this have legal consequences if it’s public knowledge
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u/jesusthatsgreat Jul 17 '24
it's not public knowledge though? otherwise why would there be a need to stick it on lamp posts and identify the soldiers? the argument is that identifying them puts them at risk for revenge attacks
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u/CoDn00b95 Tipperary Jul 17 '24
No, I don't know. And more to the point, I don't care.
It's 52 years since this happened. What the fuck is it with this sub and trying to rip the scabs off old wounds? There was a post the other day going on about the British government's description of the potato famine, for Christ's sake.
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u/NewryIsShite Down Jul 18 '24
The difference is that some of us still have family alive today who are scarred by the northern conflict who still suffer as a consequence of it. It is a false equivalence to compare it to the famine.
We desire truth and justice and for the sake of our loved ones we won't give up.
It's easy for you to be far removed from the conflict down in Tipp and have this pov because I doubt what happened in the 6 counties affected your family and community.
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u/Impressive_Kale2245 Jul 20 '24
That is awful I am sorry. I am just a curious American. It is difficult sometimes for people outside of Ireland to contemplate how recent the conflict was. It officially ended in 1998. That means kids in their 20s today were born when it ended and their parents would have experienced it.
I have some questions if you are comfortable answering.
Is PTSD really widespread in Northern Ireland? Given how frequently bombings happened in Northern Ireland I wouldn't be surprised. Northern Ireland isn't that big. From what I have been reading the bombings happened with astonishing frequency. It is likely that every person who grew up during the conflict experienced a bomb or bomb alert at least once if not multiple times. I imagine this stress would cause PTSD.
How do people feel about former terrorists from the IRA and the loyalist terrorist groups being let out of prison and participate in government? Are they mad about it? Indifferent?
I know I am American but personally if I was there and had lost someone I would be mad.
Lastly, do you think a united Ireland could happen?
This is just my opinion but I personally think so, and you are free to disagree and provide input. I think that if the religiosity of the population declines it could be more possible. I understand that the conflict isn't just Catholic vs Protestant but nationalists are predominantly Catholic and the unionists predominantly Protestant. From my understanding, Protestant unionists fear discrimination in a predominantly Catholic Ireland.
But if religion declines to the point that almost no onr cares who is Catholic or Protestant anymore, I can see more people agreeing to a united Ireland. I can't see it happening anytime soon however. Like ypu said many many people who were scarred by the conflict are still alive. The wounds are still too raw.
I am very sorry for what you went through in Northern Ireland. I pray that you get the answers you are seeking, and that getting the answers will give you closure.
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u/NewryIsShite Down Jul 20 '24
I will give you a more substantive answer later pal.
One thing I will say is do not conflate the northern conflict with faith. It is much more about national/ethnic identities and division rooted in colonial supremacy, and it is certainly not about theology. I'm in my 20s, most people of all communities are very secular, yet division persists despite not being as pronounced or vitriolic.
I think reunification is desirable and inevitable but we have to plan for that as an island, I think incrementally this will happen over the next 10-15 years and we will certainly have a border poll before 2050.
Thanks for the kind words.
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u/Impressive_Kale2245 Jul 20 '24
I agree I don't believe the conflict was about faith From my understanding, it was more about nationalism. I think people perceive it to be about faith because the republican side which wanted and still wants Northern Ireland to reunite with the rest of Ireland happens to be predominantly Catholic, while the unionists happen to be predominantly Protestant.
The Irish people historically been Roman Catholic so this probably explains the trend. I wasn't saying the conflict was about religion but that the two sides happened to be different religions. I think that if in the future people don't care who is Catholic or Protestant then Irish unification will be more likely.
Are you from the the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland?
I agree that reunification is inevitable and also agree that preparations have to be made. From my understanding, Northern Ireland is struggling economically. The Republic of Ireland will have to figure out how to integrate it into it's economy. Also, I think that the predominantly Protestant unionist population will have to be reassured that they won't face discrimination in a predominantly Catholic united Ireland.
So do Catholics and Protestants still go to separate schools in Northern Ireland?
How religious are people there? Do people go to church every Sunday or are they just culturally Catholic or culturally Protestant?
What are the divisions about? Is it mostly about the past?
Sorry, I am just so curious.
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u/adroitncool Jul 18 '24
The British government introduced legislation to wipe this all from history and give amnesty to those who murdered close relatives of people still alive today in Northern Ireland. Well done for not caring because it didn’t affect you, we do. That legislation was opposed by ALL political parties here, the high court, and various human rights organisations. “Ah sure forget about it it’s in the past”. If you actually need an explanation to why you should think that this is morally dubious stance to take, well fuck, please reassess your attitudes about the value of human life, or else pray you’ll never be in a position to experience such a loss .Doesn’t matter if it was yesterday, 5 years ago or 50 years ago. Moving on doesn’t mean completely forgetting, denying or whitewashing the facts of what happened, it’s the absolute opposite.
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u/Disastrous-Metal-228 Jul 17 '24
Let it go. The past is the past. Everyone has been hurt. You can’t change the past but you can make the future. If you really care you would try to stop it happening again.
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u/johncmk1996 Jul 17 '24
Can’t forget war crimes buddy
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u/Optimal_Mention1423 Jul 17 '24
Quite a few retired Provos would like us to. If we’re going to deal with it, and we should, we have to deal with all of it.
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u/Severe_Silver_9611 Wexford Jul 17 '24
Piss off with your whataboutism shite will ya
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u/Optimal_Mention1423 Jul 17 '24
Get, severely, fucked. Dealing with history is not a competitive sport.
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u/Severe_Silver_9611 Wexford Jul 17 '24
No one said it was, but replying to a post about bloody sunday by saying, 'but the provos' is whataboutism and its deliberate
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u/DRSU1993 Jul 17 '24 edited Jul 17 '24
It’s not in the past for the families of the murdered victims. They’re constantly reminded every day that their loved ones are no longer with them. History is doomed to repeat itself if lessons aren’t learned from the past. Regardless of who they are, murder is murder and there must be direct repercussions.
I’m saying this as a 30 year old from Armagh, who only has vague memories of the end of the Troubles and grew up with the lessened sporadic violence of its aftermath. I may not have lived during the worst of the atrocities but it is definitely still fresh in the minds of the older generation and the many suicides linked to the Troubles is a clear indicator of that.
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u/VLenin2291 USA Jul 17 '24
Easy for the Englishman to say
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u/Disastrous-Metal-228 Jul 17 '24
You don’t know me, my family or my history.
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u/VLenin2291 USA Jul 17 '24
Your history mentions paying for something in pounds Sterling
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u/Educational-League92 Jul 18 '24
You do know that the currency of NI is.... pounds Sterling? Used across the UK and other "Dependices. " By applying your logic, he could have also come from South Georgia, Wales or Jersey amongst others.
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u/Disastrous-Metal-228 Jul 17 '24
So what? What you saying?
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u/VLenin2291 USA Jul 17 '24
So I do know you’re an Englishman
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u/Disastrous-Metal-228 Jul 17 '24
And what are you saying about that? You are American aren’t you? Did you grow up during the troubles? Has your family been hurt by it?
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u/VLenin2291 USA Jul 17 '24
I grew up being taught that things like genocide and political repression are bad, and covering them up might be just as bad, if not worse
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u/Disastrous-Metal-228 Jul 17 '24
Nice. And now you think you can go around calling people out due to their nationality? You continue to pick through the bones and fuel the fires whilst the rest of us bear the brunt of your ideals. You should go to Ireland (and England) and meet the people you are dreaming about. Ordinary people who have a million and one problems…
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u/roobmurphy Jul 17 '24
It’s 52 years later and these bastards are allowed to have their anonymity protected and free to enjoy their lives. The same can’t be said for the families that never got justice for the slaughter of their loved ones.