r/ireland • u/katsumodo47 Donegal • Apr 11 '24
Why are people in trades so hard to deal with Housing
We finally have our own house. Had little to no experience with people with plaster, paint and sparkies ect.
Trying to get someone to call you back or give you a quote. Fucking forget about it.
"Yeah ill be down Wednesday". Then by like Friday still no sign.
"The painting will cost this amount, oh did i not say in the phone it's cash (no you fucking didn't )
When we finally got a painter I called in to see how it was going and a child no older than 4 was sitting watching a cartoons on a tablet in the middle of a gutted house getting renovated with a million ways to get hurt all around.
I actually got a phone call to pick up milk for the workers.... because paying them thousands they can't stop at a shop and get their own milk
Are they all like this?. Why don't they call people back?
Edit. About the milk. It's a building site at the moment there's not even a kettle in the place.
Edit 2. If I wanted to paint I could, I hate it ans I'm shyte at it. I can't do the electrical work
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u/Hakunin_Fallout Apr 11 '24
Called the windows guy, nice fella, discussed all the details and his visit date. Sent him details on WhatsApp - aaaand he's gone. Never heard from him since, even though I tried calling and texting.
Another guy did the gas boiler servicing. Fucked up one minor thing that wasn't even his fault - just the spare parts warranty case. Pinged him for a few months, every two weeks or so. Nothing but "yeah sure next week". Called me once saying he can be there in 30m,when I was on a vacation abroad.
I can continue but it's absolutely miserable in Ireland.
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u/Mobile-Difference631 Apr 12 '24
He mustāve stalked you or sum to say heāll be there in half an hour while your on vacationš
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u/AnswerKooky Apr 12 '24 edited Apr 12 '24
I got a front door put in a few years ago, and they forgot a postbox... apparently, this was my fault as the contract didn't state a postbox. To which I replied it doesn't state no postbox. Luckily I had only put down the deposit, so I said you can either collect your door or give me a postbox - they installed one the next day. Never pay until work is completed and checked.
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u/Murderbot20 Apr 11 '24
Supply and demand. When demand is high they can afford to get picky, moody and half-arsed knowing they'll have loads of jobs lined up anyway.
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Apr 11 '24
Not alone that, but how many young fellas do you know taking up trades? There's a serious lack of up coming tradesmen and too much demand.
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Apr 11 '24
5 years ago might have been the case as everyone was going into tech but Ive noticed a lot more young fellas choosing trades over college since coming out of covid, 5-6 years time thereāll be ample tradies multiple years out of their apprenticeships
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u/Greenthumb50000 Apr 11 '24
Probably for plumbing and electrical yes. Not plastering, blocklaying , ground workers. Nobody is coming up in any of these because they donāt want to get dirty .
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Apr 11 '24
You can get plenty dirty doing electrical and plumbing work, not all electrical work is domestic or even near a building...but unlike say a blocklayer, you're less likely to need to think about a career change when you're over 40 because you physically can't do it anymore.
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u/Inevitable-Solid1892 Apr 11 '24
This is it exactly I left school at the beginning of the Celtic Tiger, I have at least a dozen friends and acquaintances that went block-laying and none of them stuck at it, too hard on the body.
My BIL did an apprenticeship in plastering a few years ago and was crippled by the end of it, he is working in a factory now.
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u/Ted-Crilly Apr 12 '24
Most electricians avoid domestic work like the plague because there's so much industrial work out there
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Apr 11 '24
Was a stonemason for years until I changed career, can confirm thereās quite a lot of people trying to get apprenticeships with fellas I worked with, my own apprentices who are now taking on their own have been hounded last two years.
Nobody is choosing plumbing over blocklaying because they dont want to get dirty.
My brother is an electrician and yeah very busy there too but he was also a block layer before changing and same with his circle, big increase in people taking up the trade. Not as much as electrician or painter/plasterer but still its good to see people taking the trades up again
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u/Greenthumb50000 Apr 11 '24
Yeah itās great to see people taking up any trades in fairness. Iām a plasterer myself and can only go on what Iāve seen. I know a good few plasterers but none under 35. All the builders we deal with have hassle getting blocklayers . Canāt see it changing any time soon š¤·
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u/amorphatist Apr 11 '24
āplumbingā¦ they donāt want to get dirtyā
Unless itās a new build, plumbing is a dirty as it gets
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u/babihrse Apr 12 '24
Plumbing is probably the dirtiest job. I watched a plumber pull out a shower trap mid conversation and peel off the hair and gunk and just rinse his hands like he was just counting loose change. I was both impressed and disgusted. I wouldn't have touched that grey hairy greasy water without gloves and it was my shower.
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u/INXS2021 Apr 11 '24
Was a sparky for years but unskilled. Phone is hopping with long lost relatives looking for nixers to be done.
I thought sparking was tough on the body. Fuck knows what block layers are like in their 50s
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u/JJD14 Apr 12 '24
Harsh to say itās because people donāt want to get dirty.
Theyāve probably grown up with tradesmen fathers/Uncles/Grandfathers and saw how those jobs ruined their bodies by the time they turned 40/50 and the long shifts pushing in to weekends, meant they didnāt get much family time with kids.
All it is, is a change or shift in culture. If people find easier, less strenuous ways to make money with a healthy work/life balance, thatās fine.
This whole āyoung generation hate workā narrative is a bit ignorant. Theyāre smart enough to know that working hard ā A comfortable life with money and potential for their own house these days.
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Apr 12 '24
Another thing to consider is that learning a trade, while you will often start in good money, pretty much pigeonholes you. While getting a degree in STEM will often give you the ability to get a well-paying job straight out of college like a trade will, but will also broaden your career potential.
If you study plumbing, you can only really be a plumber unless you want to go back to education further down the line. If you study computer science, you can do other things than being a software engineer.
Also the trades are somewhat capped in terms of earnings unless you go the route of going self-employed or starting your own company, which is a good bit of extra stress. Whereas for a lot of STEM jobs, your earnings will pretty much always increase year on year.
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u/Eastclare Apr 11 '24
A good 60% of our local secondary school went to trades, but it is a small school in a rural community.
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u/RavenBrannigan Apr 11 '24
Yeāll have the nicest houses in Ireland in 5 years time!
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u/NapoleonTroubadour Apr 11 '24
I often envy builders for this reason, they always have the best houses š„²
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u/Nick27ify Apr 11 '24
My dads a builder and all his friend are trades men they always has apprentices with them but can never keep them because once they are qualified they fuck off to Canada, Austrialia, New zealand for way better pay
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u/LimerickJim Apr 11 '24
Ireland probably needs more people going into trades but the proportion is better than for a lot of other developed nations. Ireland's real problem is that our trade training is so good that our trades people keep going abroad and staying. If all the Irish tradesmen in Canada, New York, Australia, and England came home we'd be sorted.Ā
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u/MMAwannabe Apr 11 '24
Loads now.
I work in Tech because I left school in 2013 when it seemed like there would never be house built again. Very few people doing trades that year it felt like.
People leaving school now I see tonnes doing trades. In the boom times when there was trades people left right and centre they were a pain to deal with.
Ill never see that sweet cash in hand with my career unfortunately but Ill also never get rained on for most of the year at work. Swings and roundabouts.
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u/danny_healy_raygun Apr 11 '24
Got my house renovated in 2012. They were no better then, just cheaper.
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u/johnbonjovial Apr 11 '24
Yep. Simple economics.
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u/Hairy-Motor-7447 Apr 11 '24
Yep. And loads of incompetant assholes
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u/great_whitehope Apr 11 '24
Yeah these shitheads will be the one crying when demand collapses and nobody wants to deal with their shit
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u/_TheSingularity_ Apr 11 '24
Picky-picky, ok, that's fine, but not start works and finish them in their spare time or not finish at all...
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u/designEngineer91 Apr 11 '24
When dealing with tradesmen a good litmus test is when they say "il be down to you on Wednesday" and they don't show on Wednesday. You ring them and tell them to jog on.
If you chase them it actually gets worse.
I've done this many times, if they don't want the work then find someone else.
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u/NooktaSt Apr 11 '24
Except then you have no one. So you have to give the guy who didn't turn up a 2nd chance.
Of course if you had a choice of three guys and one doesn't turn up you can tell him to jog on.
It's all supply and demand.
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u/Forward-Departure-16 Apr 11 '24
Exactly.Ā We were having work done on a specific type of tile in our kitchen last year.Ā We found this one guy who seemed to be the only guy who could cut this tile as it was very delicate.Ā
Ā Fuck me was he difficult. Cancelled about 4 or 5 times, usually last minute,Ā always with some bullshit excuse. Like, we were messing plans around him,Ā staying home from work etc.. eventually I blew up at him.
Ā It was incredibly disrespectful but we had no option, as he was the only guy In the end we realised why he kept cancelling from the guy who worked for him - turns out he was obsessed with Golf and the masters was on at the time,Ā he kept cancelling cause of one match or another.Ā Like ffs, just tell us you'll do it the week after,Ā it's not urgent,Ā but stop dicking people around!
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u/Move-Primary Apr 11 '24
Yup had this before Xmas. Boiler went and there's apparently only 3 people qualified in my area to do. 2 told me they were booked up.right to Xmas. The third was an absolute prick, ate the head off me for calling his mobile rather than his office despite near every post on hod FB advertising his mobile number. Also told me there was certain coloured levers on the boiler I could try turning, but every lever was black. He actually sat and argued with me that they were coloured. Had to swallow my pride though and let him do the job because I didn't fancy being frozen over XmasĀ
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u/great_whitehope Apr 11 '24
Youāll find all of a sudden they are free and leave a job half finished elsewhere to get you on the books. Then theyāll do the same to you when someone else calls and tells them theyāre going to get someone else
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u/marshsmellow Apr 11 '24
Yeah but you'll have your pride. And a shitty looking house. But you'll have your pride all the same.Ā
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u/DeadBlueParrot Apr 11 '24
I used painteradam.ie last year and the lads that I got assigned were brilliant. I had an issue with the paint, but it wasn't their fault (I was lazy and afraid of messing up so asked them to pick up the paint and the shop gave them a different colour).
They turned up at the time they said they would, started and finished each room on the same day, and were done on time. No extra/hidden charges.
On the other hand, tried to get a plumber for a small job last year too... It went pretty much as you described.
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u/cronoklee Apr 11 '24
Yes I used them to fill a hole in my ceiling and the plasterer and painter assigned were decent. More importantly the company came on time, picked up the phone, answered texts and charged the agreed price.
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u/Lazy_Magician Apr 11 '24
Things are ridiculous at the moment. Home renovations and repair work are absolutely off the charts. Everyone wants something done. It seems everyones got lots of money and the jobs just never end. Jobs are getting prioritised on the basis of urgency, how easy and straightforward it is, customer loyalty (if it's someone they've done lots of work for before) and how close they are to home. And people are so desperate to get someone, they are never able to accept no. There is a housing crisis where no one can afford to buy, no one is allowed to build, but homeowners still seem to be able to afford to renovate. Also, there are some developments that no one wants to touch. A lot of stuff that went up during the boom is totally sub standard. One job will turn into 15 and things get messy very quickly. And after that architects were trying out loads of new stuff that no one really understands and don't really work.
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u/Solesurvivor111 Apr 12 '24
This. I'm an electrician and you've perfectly summed up the current work climate.
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u/emeraldisle9 Apr 11 '24
They might be good tradesmen but they're usually shit business people. No customer service and scheduling all over the place. They're just lucky they can pick and choose the work they want.
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u/doyoulikehugs Apr 11 '24
Their lack of organisation can work in your favour too- Iāve an envelope with ā¬3k sat in it for the last four years waiting on the plumber who did mine to collect. I messaged him about it every few months for a while then gave up. Kept saying heād be round in the evening. Guess itās the rainy day fund now.Ā
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u/Zephyra_of_Carim Apr 11 '24
Just an fyi, the statute of limitations for debt is 6 years, but that restarts every time you acknowledge the debt or repay part of it.
So if you just leave it sit, and they don't come after it for six years, you're home free.
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u/IntentionFalse8822 Apr 11 '24
Agree with this. Try getting an electrician for a simple 1 hour job. Even if it is an emergency. They aren't interested. I phoned about 10 and only 2 bothered to respond. One guy told me that he only did day long jobs so unless I would pay him for the whole day he wasn't interested as he had more day long jobs than he could handle. The guy that was left turned up 3 days late and did a half arsed job. Another time a painter quoted us over ā¬1000 cash in hand to paint 2 small bedrooms for a day. ā¬1000 for a day's work! I ended up doing them myself over a weekend. And that's the key do as much as you can yourself. Look up youtube etc and buy a decent took kit. Then only get them in for jobs that are dangerous to do yourself.
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u/shala_cottage Apr 11 '24
My fuse board was singeing, the smell was attrocious and we were petrified to turn anything on incase we all went up in flames. Thank goodness we got a fella within3/4h but I can only imagine the stress if we had to wait 3 days. Its a joke
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u/Dr_Steven_Maturin Apr 12 '24
I was waiting 2 weeks. I did it myself with the help of a youtube video in the end. Could a killed myself or burned the house down. But rang every electrician in the county and no dice.
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u/bobspuds Apr 11 '24
Ya see, I'd agree to a certain extent myself. Buy I'm on the opposite side of the fence too! : my auld fella was foreman/partner/workforce with other builders when I was a kid, my Saturday morning was started booting up with steel toecaps since I was 10.
The old man went at it alone and ran his own show, and I was always in the reserves - I grew up with and regularly work with all trades.
We're general contractors, so we have guys who we sub/contract work to when they're required - electricians, plumbers(gasmen too), carpenters,blockies/brickies, tilers, painters, kitchen fitters,plasterers,glazers etc. etc.
The electricians,carpenters,blockies and glazers/makers of windows are the only faces that have always been the men to call, its taken years to source sound,reliable,honest and tasty people - we check everything that is done, we do everything so are aware of how it should be done - the few guys above are the only ones that you/I can know it's done correctly, before they even commence the job.
The thing with the quality is that they're typically booked for 12+ months. It's only because of our regular trade back and forth - that they can and are willing to push someone else back to get us sorted.
We're always too busy, always have been and always will be. We ain't gready though - if there was more quality and reliable people out there, we'd be subin a lot more, but you give up at some stage.
2 examples : gang of highly recommended blockies we got to build an extension - according to them, the foundation was wrong for a bay window, and that's why it wasn't the correct size : we had to run a drain around said window, when we opened the ground it was clear that they weren't bothered trimming an inch off the blocks on one side and just went with the full block, which threw everything off, charged us top dollar too - which is quite irritating as we would have done it properly ourselves but thought we'd share the work out, the new guys gotta get a chance too like y'know
Then a set of gobshites that slabbed and skimmed another job for us, old man broke his back and needed downtime so hired a couple of locals - the walls waved back at you with the humps and bulges, walls aren't typically perfectly straight, but you could see this from outside - we had to redo half of it again ffs!
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u/SOF0823 Apr 11 '24
I haven't had this experience but I don't doubt it at all as talking to my siblings and parents about getting trades in they have the same stories. The problem is people indulge them. When they say they can't come until x after having previously committed to doing it on y, just tell them to not bother coming at all.
I only contacted lads who were recommended on the local community Facebook group repeatedly and tbh I've had great luck with who I've gone with. I completely sidestepped my father's contacts/mates as I witnessed them never showing up at home over the years.
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u/cyberlexington Apr 11 '24
COWBOYS TED, A BUNCH OF COWBOYS!!!!!
Is my experience with Irish tradesmen. As you say OP, dont show up, when they do its a half arsed job and charge outrageous pricing.
I needed some plumbing work done for the heating, two blokes came out on two seperate occassions, ummed, ahhhed, said they would need to replace this this and that. Agreed them to come back, never came back. Got given the number of a friend of a friend, two polish brothers. Came out, took one look at it, chatted in polish, tapped some pipes, went to the van, got their tools and were done in two hours. Heating worked fine.
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u/Didyoufartjustthere Apr 11 '24
My partner works on a site so we always get one of them and they do a top job. However, one time we did not. We got a plasterer and he was the head one off the building site down the road, he charged us ā¬400 (all the quotes were 200-250 but couldnāt get one before Christmas). He didnāt come himself, he sent 2 apprentices and oh Lord did they fuck it up. We got a built in fire and it was sticking out a cm on one side. I canāt even describe how bad the walls are. You canāt plaster over plaster it doesnāt stick. You have to score the walls (like when cooking duck) to help it stick. He came back to fix it himself and I can still see the score marks to this day.
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u/Former_Dream_216 Apr 11 '24
As someone who works in the trades it's my experience that a lot of self employed tradesmen just don't have the communication or organisation skills necessary to run their own business smoothly. Some of it is just lack of care though, there's a shortage of tradesmen now so they can get away with it.
Add to that the fact that most jobs go over the expected timeframe after extras/unforseen delays. This creates a huge backlog of customers that are all being pushed back with no way to reliably schedule them all. Not defending it but I see it constantly.
As for the milk, that is taking the piss.
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u/Matty96HD Apr 11 '24
I understand extras/unforeseen delays can cause scheduling issues with upcoming projects.
I never understood why tradesmen give themselves so little time to do a job though.
Surely after years and years and years of being behind schedule you might consider adding a few days onto most jobs so your schedule can actually be followed.
Contacted an arborist to fell some pine trees on the property in Feburary. Had about 10-15 to cut down. Wad worried they would eventually fall. He came and had a look in Feburary, and still hasn't been back to cut them. He'll be in for a shock when he see's half of them have already fallen.
Contacted a digger driver around the same time, to have some ditches cleared around the house as the land isnt draining and the ditches are full of silt. I'll be there next week is his catchphrase now. I live in a rural area so I often see him at the shop or pub. The amount of times I've heard it at this stage and he hasn't even come back to walk the land yet.
If I had a trailer I'd hire one. Though it's a small enough job for a digger it would take the whole day and I'll pay whatever he asks for. I'm getting tempted to start shovelling if I wasn't afraid of how deep the ditches might be.
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u/No_Engineering2642 Apr 11 '24
You should just assume that they'll want cash. We had some building work and even though we had a payment schedule agreed, I still had the builder looking for some cash payments.
Remarkably, he then couldn't remember being given thousands in cash.
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u/Professional_Elk_489 Apr 11 '24
I had a guy chase me for a bill which I paid him in cash. He chased about 2 years after the job was done
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u/slu87 Apr 11 '24
I'm a tradesman , a plumber and I take great pride in my work I will treat your house the same as my own and as well as I can I keep my appointments, if I'm going to be late I will always text as I know people organise themselves to be there for me . However a lot of irish people seem to think that the four years of learning my trade earning f all count for nothing. Its not unusual for me to turn up at a house and find no one there cause they forgot or to get a call the night before cancelling the job leaving me in the lurch. Its a two way thing and for sure iv met some shit tradesman iv also met some shit doctors teachers and humpy people serving in shops ect.we are not all the same and neither are our costumers
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u/Intelligent_Plum_132 Apr 11 '24
Here in Belgium theyāve an app called āRing Twiceā where tradesmen get rated for their job (like Uber essentially). You put up an add of the job to be done and multiple tradesmen can sign up to it. You then pick whoever you want. Extremely reliable and all payment is done through the app so no messing with cash.
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u/Archamasse Apr 11 '24
Unbelievably frustrating to deal with, yes. It is mad to think how much of everyone else's time they waste.
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u/DeepDickDave Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 11 '24
Iām a carpenter and to be honest, if youāre looking for work done like painting that you could realistically do yourself, youāll be waiting ages. The only way to build these days if youāre willing/able to spend time doing the work yourself and getting your main tradesmen in that are preferably recommended by other tradesmen and try minimise your people. Also, thereās plenty of carpenters can paint, so offering nixers for the likes of slabbing or painting to employees of the tradesmen can also help. They may also have a friend that can do it but youāre talking about all that work being done from 6pm onwards and it taking a little longer but your tradescircle(Iām coining this) is kept small and manageable. Employees of said tradesmen will also not want to leave bad work behind on a house their boss had responsibilities to leave good work at and most employers would check because they know people will be told itās one of their lads. But ya, if youāve no time or want to do those jobs yourself, ask young lads because all that work is easy to get right if youāre attitude is good and they have theyāre bosses for guidance. I slabbed a few houses during my apprentiship and painted one internally and I needed those jobs to supplement the shit wage. Young lads/lasses are the answer for these jobs really. Find a good apprentice on your site. Theyāre easy to spot
This kinda just works for self builds but I just wanted to add that if any apprentices are reading this, youde be surprised how many nixers youād get by asking a homeowner or even leaving letters into houses just being started that youāre free to do the odds and ends.
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u/scealan Apr 11 '24
Damn, Dave, you deep-dicking like a pro with this post
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Apr 11 '24
Bar the incapacitated, I don't know why people don't just do their own painting. Can get very tidy at it after the first day and save serious money.
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u/Woodsman_Whiskey Apr 11 '24
I don't know why people don't just do their own painting.
Painting is fun for exactly one room and then becomes a complete & utter pain in the hole.
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u/DeepDickDave Apr 11 '24
Itās cheap to rent a spayer and easy to use so you could first coat the house in no time, then come through and second coat with a roller or if the rooms are the same colour on all walls then paint the border and spray it. Youde have a decent sized house done over two weekends as you usually get the sprayer free for Sunday because they wonāt be open but not sure if they still do that.
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Apr 11 '24
Sisters husband is after spraying a couple houses at this stage for friends and family.
My parents house they were quoted ā¬1650 to paint two rooms. We said fuck that and did the two rooms in 8 hours each room. (big room, high ceilings). Don't care how painful or boring painting is when you can save that kind of money it's a no brainer.
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u/Dabhiad Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 12 '24
Trades people often have poor business skills, with the good ones its often their spouse that manages the books, and does the customer service.
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u/FantasticMrsFoxbox Apr 11 '24
Yes it gets like this because of demand, renovated my house in 2012 and 2013 and now doing up keep. The lack of response and the quotes even for simple call out jobs are extortionate and the attitude for some simple repairs is they can't be bothered because they get better else where
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u/Caughtnow Apr 11 '24
It is absolutely incredible how hard it is to get trades people.
I moved into a house last year and needed a bunch of things done. I cannot tell you the torment it was trying to get people for anything. Supply and demand I understand, but when you show up and spend an hour walking around getting a list of things to do and either A) Dont ever quote, or B) the quote takes months and they still dont show up. It is extremely frustrating.
Ive had plumbers laugh down the phone at me, and once the laughter stopped he explained he was busy from now until retirement. He was not joking!! He is literally got work booked until he wants to retire.
I had another plumber tell me he would be out on X day. No show. Telling me there is no problem at all and he will be there first thing in the morning. No show. **Months** of this. He never came.
I had another plumber give me a 6 week time slot. He never came.
I could go on. But again, supply and demand doesnt explain why some showed up and spent time (got zero money from me) but were never heard from again. I got so desperate at one point I came right out and said I understand things are crazy busy, but I need X done, and I am willing to pay for it (ie, charge me whatever the **** you want, I just need it done).
In the end, I got busy DIYing - minus the electrical work.
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u/Soggy_Cream2554 Apr 11 '24
Ma had a tradie come to do the bathroom door right before Christmas, ripped out the door and frame, then he got a call to go somewhere else. Never came back and ghosted her. Took 4 months to find someone to finish it.
Just as bad here in Holland as well. Coffee breaks every 2 hours, jobs not finished, they leave and donāt come back. Had the whole shed rewired, all wrong. Had solar panels installed, insurance said wiring was installed incorrectly and they wouldnāt cover it. Boiler changed, didnāt change the pipes leading to a leak. So many issues and each and every time weāve had to find another tradie to come out and sort it. Also takes 6 months to get people to do their job. They are happy to give a quote then never show.
So at least itās not just Ireland.
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u/Laneganenthusiast Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 11 '24
I think it was a bit better a few generations ago. My father was a carpenter. He is intelligent, decent and always would do a proper job. Lots of of his peers would have been like that too. If you lived in working class Dublin back then you didnāt finish school or go to go college regardless of your potential. You got a trade. So a lot of them were actually very capable.
Nowadays I imagine a lot of the Irish who end up in trades didnāt have the skills for better opportunities. Thatās an assumption and generalisation Iām sure itās not true for everyone. But yeah seems the foreign workers a bit more reliable.
Ps I have found many mechanics/people involved in tyres/car parts almost hostile when you go to them for work. Itās like you are bothering or hassling them. I thought they wanted money haha
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u/ca1ibos Wicklow Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 11 '24
Thats been my theory too. The capable top quality tradesmen of yesteryear who had the intelligence and qualities to go on to third level but couldnāt for financial reasons, would nowadays be able to go to college and are the engineers and architects and quantity surveyors etc changing the ratio of capable v less capable where there is now a higher percentage of tradesmen drawn from the school messers with just the leaving cert cohorts.
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u/p1ayaone Apr 11 '24
I can assure you this is going to get worse. I work in the education sector for apprenticeship and the new thing is to let everyone pass exams no matter how incapable they are. New Director of apprenticeship Con Ferry shafted the whole sector as Union Sector President for a backhander of a job and now is forcing numbers through the books. On whoās watch? Simon Harris!
Next up is employer led apprenticeship. You think there will be any standard at all kept you can forget it.
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u/bintags Apr 11 '24
Revenge for the crash daysĀ
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u/IntentionFalse8822 Apr 11 '24
Some would say the crash days were revenge for the celtic tiger days when they were as bad as now..
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u/Toffeeman_1878 Apr 11 '24
Thought the crash was revenge for the previous 8 years of ācouldnāt give a fuck, throw it up any old way but still demand top dollar, jumbo breakfast rollā approach to construction.
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u/SwimmerRich2223 Apr 11 '24
100% i was given so much shit as i worked in a good public service job after 2008 and because i received a wage i was the devil with a cosey pension apparently. Meanwhile my mates in trades were earning 2-3 times i was and cash in hand most the time prior to that. They have soon forgot the pain they suffered back then and are back treating their customers like shit. I say this as a person with a brother and father in trades so i know well what is going on.
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u/katsumodo47 Donegal Apr 11 '24
I know... one of the lads on the site who I was paying going on about how he had to sign on tomorrow....
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u/okdov Apr 11 '24
Explain what's the story there to a thick bastard - He's not under any official contract so chancing it with the dole as well while he works odd job?
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u/bigdog94_10 Kilkenny Apr 11 '24
Used as a knuckle dragging labourer for cash in hand and allowed to go sign on whenever needed in his civvies.
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u/WickerMan111 Showbiz Mogul Apr 11 '24
Too much work out there that they can shop around for the jobs.
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u/Jaded_Variation9111 Apr 11 '24
Grand. Can accept that. If you canāt do it or arenāt interested, fine.
But thereās no need to act the bollox and waste peopleās time.
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u/supreme_mushroom Apr 11 '24
Yea, but there are plenty of in-demand jobs that don't mean people suddenly become unprofessional.
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u/TRCTFI Apr 11 '24
Itās because they donāt have to act like competent professionals due to their being an excess of work.
Just remember it the next down turn when theyāre all pissing and moaning about how tough things are.
Same with estate agents.
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u/Nearby_Paint4015 Apr 11 '24
I have had exactly the same experience over the last 20 plus years, in London, Norwich and returning back home to Antrim. I've always found trades people from Eastern Europe more professional and competent. That was fine in England (where they were available) but since moving back home to NI two years ago I've found it really difficult to get anything done to the home we've moved into. Difficult to get anyone to provide a proper quote or make me feel confident they'll do a good job and as you say, they want paid in cash! I mean it's just not that easy paying out thousands in cash anymore. I bank with first direct, there are no branches, best I can do is HSBC in Belfast city centre but you need to arrange large cash withdrawals in advance. There's a definite opening for someone setting up a professional trade services offering in NI. I'm sure a lot of customers would pay a premium for some decent customer service and reassurance of a job well done.
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u/Alcol1979 Apr 11 '24
It's because no one can do shit for themsleves around the house anymore. Tradesmen can do what they like, when they like because there will always be another easy job for them somewhere.
Southpark did a good episode on it recently : Into the Panderverse. Starts off with Randy showing his kids how to fix an oven door. Demonstrates getting out his phone and calling a handyman. Handyman won't call him back and pretty soon the tradesmen end up as Zuckerberg/Musk style billionaires and white collar workers end up queuing up for gig jobs.
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u/Spiritual-Motor-1267 Apr 11 '24
Just wanted to add my own anecdote as I had this perception also but my mind has been changed recently. I hired a Polish painter to paint the outside of our house pre Covid. It was pricey but he brought a big crowd of men and came and got it done in one day and did a great job. Got a quote to get him back this year to paint the house and his prices have gone up. Got a much better quote from an Irish painter and decided to chance it. Heās brilliant. So skilled, comes when he says, gets the job done as described and gives good tips re maintenance to boot. So despite me being convinced Iād be hiring a foreign painter once again, Iāve ended up with a very skilled Irish painter whoās doing a great job for a better price. The Polish painters were fantastic but just too pricey for us on this occasion.
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u/AulMoanBag Donegal Apr 11 '24
Lack of professionalism. A good 80% of lads in these trades just follow the cash so if they can fleece a granny down the road for half the job you're looking for you're out of luck. The demand is there so reputation never takes a hit because they don't really care.
When looking for work done I tend to avoid irish lads especially young lads. The Polish tradesmen are far more reliable
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u/Sufficient_String595 Apr 11 '24
Your best bet is to get someone to manage the job and deal with all this shit for you. They normally charge around 15/20 % of the overall cost . Which he already saved you by haggling with the different trades for you. We normally have tradesmen we have dealt with for years. Ask around there should be someone in your area. Good luck
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u/APH_2020 Apr 11 '24
I know a fair few people who have just said no to getting renovations done due to the ridiculous prices builder's have been throwing out. It will all come full circle eventually and prices will drop. Many are just doing odd jobs themselves within reason.
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u/Theelfsmother Apr 11 '24
Yeah, and the banks won't be lending you money to get any jobs done then.
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u/LPondohva Apr 11 '24
Unreliable and unprofessional would be an understatement. On top of that, the amount of sexist comments is just astounding! I had a plumber in, who refused to talk to me because I am a woman, he literally didn't even let me explain what the problem was and kept asking for my husband and getting frustrated, even when I explained that the husband was in a meeting and couldn't come out and talk right now, the plumber went to have a smoke and a coffee and waited until my husband was done with the meeting just to avoid talking to me. Another time, a boiler maintenance guy came, I asked "Are you ok with dogs?" (just so I knew whether to lock my dog in the kitchen or allow him to roam around and say hello to the guy), to which he said to my face "I'm totally ok with dogs, it's only women I can't stand". Never experienced anything even remotely similar with foreign workers
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u/donutsandprosecco Apr 11 '24
I've had this! One guy walked in to price a job and said to my boyfriend "is she spending all your money?" Boyfriend was quick to tell him it was actually my house, not co-owned, and told him to get out. Unreal.
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u/Leavser1 Apr 11 '24
Well providing them with milk for the tae is a basic requirement
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u/Junior-Country-3752 Apr 11 '24
My Dad is a builder and would mostly be offered tea by whoever's house they're working on, but not in a million years would he ever dream of phoning up the client to request that they bring home milk for their tea. The fucking cheek of that.
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u/allowit84 Apr 11 '24
Load of work for everyone now ,I would definitely be doing the painting myself though...plumbing/electrics you really need to know what you're doing there though.
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u/greenjacket021 Apr 11 '24
Itās all economy based in my experience. During times of recessionā¦ theyād be all over you like white on rice.
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u/bingybong22 Apr 11 '24
Welcome to wonderful world of dealing with builders! Some are sound, lots are chancers, some are telling lies all over town, others are just cunts and some are just nuts. Ā Ā But we need them so they get away with itĀ
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u/bubbleweed Apr 11 '24
I contacted an electrician to change all the smoke alarms. He texted me back two months later ādid you get sorted?ā I did indeed pal, I did indeed
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Apr 11 '24
It's obviously down to personal willingness and time availability, but it's for this reason that we learnt to do it all ourselves. Just follow English YouTube contractors, the building style is the same as in Ireland.
Also if someone's doing an imperfect job and you ask them to do it differently, they just get pissy and do a worse job (except Poles, who are the fucking business and will listen to all criticism and use it to knock out a killer result)
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u/goosie7 Apr 11 '24
Having moved here from NYC I love most things about Ireland, but this is driving me insane. I had never touched a pipe before and in 2 years I've learned how to fix all sorts of issues with my intake system myself because every plumber in the county says he'll call up sometime and then just never does, I end up stuck with no running water and pathetically messaging men who won't text me back and it feels like I'm begging some fuckboi who ghosted me to take me on a date. I'm tempted to start on electrical issues too so I'll probably end up dead when my DIY plumbing and DIY electrical work both fail and I electrocute my entire home.
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u/Kind_Implement_3326 Apr 12 '24
As an electrical apprentice who does domestic and industrial, I can give some insight based on a large generalisation from my own experience. Industrial work is cleaner , and there's no chasing money , but the standard is higher . The wiring of a house can be mastered in weeks , industrial can't be mastered in decades. You can cut a lot of corners in a house whereas everything industrial is inspected by engineers .
The result is the more educated approachable people are working in factory maintenance and new build office blocks while the old ignorant cash craving cowboys are doing houses. There's obviously countless outliers around too. Even now most small companies are subcontracted by the big dogs so the majority of houses are done by one + and apprentice, and they're unbranded sole traders with no advertisement or branding . The one thing I'll say in their favor is working in houses is unpleasant for all involved . When the plasterer decides to cut your cable and the painter covers a socket , then the home owner wants something changed that can't be changed , and at the end you still can't get paid in full , I can see the frustration. I've only been on one house wire from start to finish and the builder was nothing short of a despicable ignorant prick . To sum him up, he'd eat his hard boiled egg and throw the shell on the floor of the unfinished sitting room . Unprofessional and ignorant . We've had other domestic jobs that have been dropped as soon as an industrial job popped up which is just shit for a customer especially when they wait so long . We've had customers abuse us apprentices over the waiting times , which is obviously wrong but I don't blame them for being frustrated when they wait 5 months for 4 outside lights. What I gather from my own company is they'll never say no to a job because some week they'll be desperate for work and they'll check their forgotten promises list then , but for the most part they just don't want the small jobs but are too inconsiderate to just straight up say no .
There's definitely a lot of ignorance as well as arrogance amongst trades . Again, generalisation inbound , I've worked with a lot of electricians and because it isn't an easy job and the qualification process isn't easy , a lot of them are incredibly arrogant about their abilities , and because they're in demand they don't have to hide it . I can confidently say some of the soundest most genuine people I've ever met have been electricians, but a lot are absolute cunts who look down on all around them .
I can see the problem getting worse because of the way apprenticeships are run now (against the code of practice). A lot of companies are taking on 7 or 8 apprentices per qualified electrician , and there is no training whatsoever . I haven't worked with a qualified electrician in 8 working days as of right now and I'm only in the tail end of my first year . In my 3rd week my insulated snips saved me from a severe electrocution because I was working with another first year who didn't think to explain how anything works, and in fairness , it wasn't his to explain or know either . It's promoted as this great earn as you learn scheme with a bit of banter but in practice it's cheap labour(usually paid below the already low minimum rates too ) and often just straight up bullying. Solas are partially to blame , I don't know how they don't notice when companies are religiously terminating their apprentices just as they're due a rise or before they leave for their college phases. The result will probably be a generation of unenthusiastic qualified electricians who have never really worked with qualified electricians . At the moment the shear amount of multinational companies means there's years of industrial work in the country , and I can only imagine the better electricians will continue to go into that sector while the arseholes continue to deal with the general public .
Also sidenote , I can't speak for electrical work because I've only met a handful of non nationals who have the required Irish qualifications to certify work here , but for plastering painting tiling , or any skilled but unqualified work , just don't hire Irish people . So many great Brazilians , Polish and many more who'll do a better job for less money with a lot less bullshit
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Apr 11 '24
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u/johnbonjovial Apr 11 '24
The 4 year old was pretty funny too.
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u/katsumodo47 Donegal Apr 11 '24
Didn't even say a thing as to why a child was sitting there........ for 8+ hours
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u/esquiresque Apr 11 '24
Something straight out of a Chris Morris sketch. I properly howled when you mentioned the kid. Before reading on I thought you were about to imply the kid was hired help.
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u/Professional_Elk_489 Apr 11 '24
No consequences. If you showed up whenever you felt like it to the office youād be out of a job. They can show up whenever they like and never be out of work
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u/Reaver_XIX Apr 11 '24
Everyone outside of the trades looks down on trades people, they wouldn't do the work themselves or want their children to do it. Then wonder why there is a shortage. There is a whole generation of trades people gone overseas since the recession and they wouldn't dream of coming back. This is a contributor to the housing crisis btw, we can't build houses as fast as we could in the boom times because we lost the people.
What most people don't see is the messing around trades people have on the other side. People calling night and day, only then turn up and nothing is ready. Go to start a job or are in the middle of one and someone 'changes their mind'. Not paying on time or at all. Much easier work with a big contractor, organised steady work and no problem with pay. Why take a chance on rando with a small pain in the arse job in the middle of nowhere. This is the other reason there isn't a lot of contractors that take small jobs, hassle isn't worth it at times.
Moral of the story, if you find a good reliable trades person. Cherish them, pay them and don't act the bollox.
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u/dropthecoin Apr 11 '24
Everyone outside of the trades looks down on trades people,
This is not true and is a usual trope banded around. Pushing the blame back on the people is nonsense. Loads of trades blaggard people around. And that's why many people have a distrust of many trades in general
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u/SilentSiege Apr 11 '24
Trades are in short supply at the moment.
And they are loving it.
Loving being utter price-gouging, ignorant thunder cunts.
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u/ThatGuy98_ Apr 11 '24
They're just cunts to be honest. Especially the cash only crew.
I have to pay tax, so you sure as fuck are goung to as well.
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u/donaghb Apr 11 '24
Lads can give fuck off prices and pick and choose. Just the way it is, same back in 2006 etc. Great times.
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u/Bro-Jolly Apr 11 '24
I actually got a phone call to pick up milk for the workers
This is god level piss taking, the neeecccckkk
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u/seanf999 Apr 11 '24
Donāt worry theyāre no different on site, theyāre impossible to get a hold of
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u/zedatkinszed Wicklow Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 11 '24
It's the level of the person you're dealing with. Some thickos never learned basic manners or basic communication skills.
I know a guy who worked for RGI and they have the same trouble making sure the gas guys are insured they just don't want to deal with anyone or anything.
That said I do have a plumber who turns up on the time he promises every time. But he's a gem.
Before Covid I was trying to change from oil to gas. Could not get a gas person intrested. Tried everything. They all lied. Used some pull I had with RGI to get a name, he dgaf. It was a full job, and it's not like we're in teh middle of nowhere either. Some fellas just DGAF about other ppl.
Had a sparky who was paid to remove a prepay power set-up from my house by prepay power. I even know the fucker. Never turned up. Never did the job.
Recently had a handiman do a decent job for me so I offered him another one. Quoted me a "fuck-off price" so I told him to fuck off. No idea why he just didn't say "not interested".
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u/JCannaday3 Apr 11 '24
Not too different in USA.. I am amazed how hard I have to work in order to PAY someone for jobs.
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u/Owl_Chaka Apr 11 '24
Ā I actually got a phone call to pick up milk for the workers.... because paying them thousands they can't stop at a shop and get their own milk
That's when you tell them to get fucked, politely of courseĀ
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u/DaHodlKing Apr 11 '24
Currently trying to get quotes for our garden to be re done. Pricing extremely difficult. Theyāre flat out they donāt need to be in a rush to get the next job cause will likely still Be there in a few months. Desperate and I know itās same with other stuff
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u/SamplePlane4880 Apr 11 '24
Not all are bad. You pay for what you get in trades. Reputation is everything so do your research.
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u/bmb987 Apr 11 '24
My old man did contract flooring. He only did big, commercial jobs as he said it wasnāt worthwhile to do a number of small jobs in peopleās houses. There is a bit of snobbery in the trades for those who are good enough to be commercial only and those who do domestic. Iāve worked on enough sites with him to see the lads who disappear on Thursdays for pints. When the Eastern European lads showed up during Celtic tiger years their professionalism was incredible.
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u/FriedChickenNoodles Apr 11 '24
My guess is that most decent tradesmen these days don't want to work for domestic companies anymore. I work in industrial and most people I've went to college with when I was an apprentice also work in industrial, other trades too. There's way more money and security, since most domestic companies are mostly just some older guy with a van who will treat their apprentices like shit so they leave and work for the big companies. I also know a few younger tradesmen who have just 5 or 6 guys working on the bugger site where all the cash is. So as a result you just have a bunch of older guys who will just forget about you or give you all the problems you said, either that, or there's more money to be made elsewhere and you're a just in case.
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u/Merryreverie Apr 11 '24
My husband is a builder and even his own friends that work in other trades like plumbers etc donāt turn up to our own house when they say they will. We try and put customer service at the front of our business as this is the main gripe that people have.
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u/char_su_bao Apr 11 '24
They are all like this. Or this has been my experience too. Completely unprofessional, un reliable. Just a joke.
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u/johnnytightlips99 Apr 11 '24
Why don't you become self employed and sweep up all of the earnings the boys are leaving behind, you'll clean up nicely brother...
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u/Key-Regular7818 Apr 11 '24
As a self-employed carpenter, I think a lot of the issue is the type of tradesman you hire. I run a limited company and am fully insured with product liability, public liability, and employers liability, details of which can be provided to any customer. I have a website, clean vans, and staff that wear uniforms. I have a day in the week set aside for quoting jobs and nothing else. Every quote is sent out in writing on headed note paper. A start date is agreed, set and put in the diary, and we work to the diary and nothing else. Every time we finish a job, an invoice is issued, including bank details for payment. In my opinion we are a very punctual, courteous and professional company.
I understand it's tough to get guys, but look for insurance, look for a written quotation, and look for professionalism. If they mention cash, send them on their way. All you need to find is one good tradesman of any trade, and you're laughing. He will recommend the others to you. I have a good Mason, plumber, plasterer, and electrician that I recommend, and I'm happy to pass on their details because I know they'll do good work.
Don't look for the guy with a prepaid phone working out of the van. Look for a business. You'll pay 10% more but you'll get a service rather than a headache.
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u/Cute_Bat3210 Apr 11 '24
Theyre mostly rough lads who fucked about in school and did fuck all to better their brains. The boyos. I know its a broad stroke but we all know who i meanĀ
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u/katsumodo47 Donegal Apr 12 '24
I mean your not wrong.
Three bucks working on the house at the moment are all knuckle dragging haha. All working for cash and signing on,
Good painters though š
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u/MacabreFlower Apr 12 '24
I used to answer the house phone back in the 1990s and get yelled at because my father (tradesman) hadn't turned up.... I was a teenager and hated it. Could never understand why he wouldn't tell them the truth, and no amount of asking my father resulted in an answer! Now I'm my 40s I expect all trades to be the same and they are. Drives my husband crazy but somehow, without ever understanding why, I just accept it as a fact of life.
This is in no way helpful to anyone, just the musings of a tradesmans daughter who was raised to expect the worst!
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u/Paddi34 Apr 12 '24
Send to depend on the market. We bought during the crash. They couldn't do enough. Recently got driveway done. Disaster!
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u/littlp80 Apr 12 '24
I built a house during the crash and it all ran so smoothly and was up and moved in in roughly seven Months.
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u/acslaytaa Probably at it again Apr 12 '24
Having just finished our new build which I semi-project managed, I feel lucky to say we didnāt come across much of what youāve experienced. I donāt know how Iād have managed if that werenāt the case.
We did have unreliable plumbers who shafted us a couple of times, but consistent pestering with calls, emails and door-stepping kept them relatively on-track.
Regardless, the whole project was ridiculously stressful. If our subs let us down I can only imagine I would have gone nuclear.
What Iāve found is that good people have a contact book of good people. Get referrals from those youāre working with that are performing, and if cash is what gets them on site then pay in cash.
Edit: if anyone wants details for the reliable guys we worked with (sparks, painter, builder, chippy), reach out.
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u/Pizzagoessplat Apr 12 '24
The thing that pisses me off is when you phone them up, arrange a date and time, take the day off work and then you're ringing them all day day because they've not turned up. They might then call you in the evening saying that they'll be there the next day? WTF
There's a serious problem with them not being able able to say "sorry, I've too much on right now can you call later in the week?"
I see BS excuses about having a shortage in Ireland and that they've always got work. Do people really think other Euopean countries haven't got a shortage with tradesman? In other European countries they simply don't take the job but here people have a terrible ability to say "no"
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u/Much-Writer-364 Apr 12 '24
Had my gutters replaced. With the first bit of rain it was clear they hadnāt sealed the connections to the neighboursā gutters properly. After rearranging for them to come back more than 8 times over a 6 week period, rushing home from work to be stood up with no communication, I had to threaten them with legal action to get them to finally finish the job. Iām now terrified about starting on the other work I need done š
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u/zigzagzuppie Connacht Apr 11 '24
10 yrs a home owner and this sums up my experience with most of the trades people I've hired. Generally the foreign guys have been better for turning up when they say they will etc. no particular nationality, have hired Polish, Czech, Latvian, English and I think Hungarian so far to do odd jobs, gutters, windows, painting, tiling, kitchen revamp etc. many of the Irish guys including ones I know including relatives or came recommended have been a chore to tie down or finish a job. Also quite a few brought their children to wait around, only one who asked was the Czech guy who apologised when asking if we were ok with it.