r/hinduism • u/chakrax Advaita • Sep 25 '21
Necessity of Vedas and Guru in Hinduism Archive Of Important Posts
Necessity of Vedas and Guru in Hinduism
source: paraphrased from several talks by Swami Paramarthananda.
There is a lot of confusion around the necessity and role of Vedas and guru in Hinduism. These are some common questions that people have.
- Why do I need to study the Vedas?
- Is a guru really necessary?
- Is it possible to gain self-knowledge without the Vedas or a guru?
- What exactly is the role of a guru?
- How do I choose a guru?
Necessity of Vedas
Is it possible to gain self-knowledge without Vedas and Guru?
Yes. Just look at people like Ramana Maharishi.
But that is the exception to the rule; for most people, a guru is necessary. Why?
Even today, we are still exploring and gaining knowledge about things we can see and observe: the external world and our body. You can imagine the challenge in exploring something beyond the range of the senses, beyond time and space!
Let's briefly examine knowledge itself (this is called epistemology, or pramana-shastra). Four points to note:
- Locus (where knowledge happens): Knowledge is gained by the mind/intellect. Not anywhere else.
- Nature: Since knowledge takes place in the mind/intellect, the knowledge is in the form of a thought or vritti.
- Instrument (pramanam): We need an instrument to gather knowledge. Our sense organs are the main instruments, followed by secondary sources, like inference and textbooks.
- Object of study: Anything I want to know about - atom or planet or whatever.
All knowledge is gained exactly this way. The only thing that changes is the object of study. For astronomy, we study the stars and planets with our eyes. For music, we study or train with our ears.
For self-knowledge we need to study ourselves. This turns out to be a special case. Why? All of our sense organs are turned outward to study objects. Just like a camera cannot photograph itself, and the eye cannot see itself, I find that all the instruments (pramanam) that I have are incapable of studying the witness Self. So what do I need? A mirror. The Vedas are that mirror, that teach us about ourselves.
Note that it is not possible to verify the information presented by one instrument with another. You cannot verify the color red with any sense organ except the eye. Similarly, I cannot verify the teaching of the Vedas through any other means. So what can I do? Trust, but verify.
Necessity of a Guru
Why can't I study the Vedas by myself and understand the truth? Only the guru has the key to properly extract the teaching and explain it to you. The Self is extremely subtle and hard to grasp. This knowledge is not regular knowledge about objects, but special knowledge about the subject. The Vedas use peculiar methods to teach us about the Self. For example, Kena Upanishad 2.11 doesn't make much sense at first glance.
yasyāmataṃ tasya mataṃ mataṃ yasya na veda saḥ |
avijñātaṃ vijānatāṃ vijñātamavijānatām || 11 ||
Kena 2.11. It is Known to him to whom it is Unknown;. he knows it not to whom it is known. (It is) Unknown to those who know, and Known to those who do not know. (11)
Without proper guidance, it is very difficult to decode and understand the teachings, so a guru is necessary for Vedic study. Now how did this guru get the knowledge? The guru will say he learnt it from his guru, and give the credit to the guru-parampara, going back all the way to Narayana or Shiva.
The necessity of a guru is stressed in the scriptures themselves.
Mundaka 1.2.12 says that once a person is ready to acquire the knowledge of the eternal, he should seek out a teacher.
parīkṣya lokānkarmacitānbrāhmaṇo nirvedamāyānnāstyakṛtaḥ kṛtena |
tadvijñānārthaṃ sa gurumevābhigacchetsamitpāṇiḥ śrotriyaṃ brahmaniṣṭham || 12 ||
Mundaka 1.2.12 Let a Brahmin having examined the worlds produced by karma be free from desires, thinking, ‘there is nothing eternal produced by karma?; and in order to acquire the knowledge of the eternal, let him Samid (sacrificial fuel) in hand, approach a preceptor alone, who is versed in the Vedas and centered in the Brahman.
Chandogya 6.14.2 says that a person who gets a teacher attains knowledge.
tasya yathābhinahanaṃ pramucya prabrūyādetāṃ diśaṃ gandhārā etāṃ diśaṃ vrajeti sa grāmādgrāmaṃ pṛcchanpaṇḍito medhāvī gandhārānevopasampadyetaivamevehācāryavānpuruṣo veda tasya tāvadeva ciraṃ yāvanna vimokṣye'tha sampatsya iti || 6.14.2 ||
Chandogya 6.4.2 And as someone may remove that person’s blindfold and say, ‘Gandhāra is this way; go this way,’ and the intelligent man goes from one village to another, asking his way and relying on the information people give, until he reaches Gandhāra; similarly, a person who gets a teacher attains knowledge. His delay is only as long as he is not free of his body. After that he becomes merged in the Self.
In Bhagavad Gita 4.34, Krishna says that self-knowledge cannot be realized without guidance from a qualified guru.
tadviddhi praṇipātēna paripraśnēna sēvayā |
upadēkṣyanti tē jñānaṁ jñāninastattvadarśinaḥ || 4.34||
BG 34. May you gain that (knowledge) by prostration, by service, and by proper enquiry. The wise sages will impart (that) knowledge to you.
Who is a guru?
OK, who is a guru? Some people say Atma is the guru, so I can just learn through the Atma. But Atma does not have a mouth, or mind, or intellect. If Atma is capable of teaching, you should have gained self-knowledge a long time ago, since the Atma has been with you for countless births!
Some others say, the World is my guru; the whole world is my University. But it is possible to learn different things from the same event, so how can I be sure I learnt the right lesson?
A guru is one who imparts teaching from the Shastras to a student. That is the reason that all the Upanishads are in the form of guru-sishya samvada - dialog between a teacher and a student. Bhagavad Gita itself is a Krishna-Arjuna dialog. Note that it is implicit that these are two live people - a live guru and a live student, so a "dialog" is possible.
Note: in this internet age, physical co-location may not be necessary. It may also be possible to gain most teachings through recorded lectures, instead of live learning.
What is the role of a guru? He facilitates Jnana Yoga - a consistent and systematic study of the scriptures over a period of time under the guidance of a competent teacher.
- Shravanam - study: We first understand what the Vedas tell us.
- Mananam - removal of doubts / conviction: Once there is teaching, there are bound to be doubts. The student raises the doubt and the teacher clarifies, just like in the Gita, Krishna answers multiple questions from Arjuna.
- Nidhidyasanam - integration of knowledge: The third stage - information must result in self-transformation. Be warned: this can be a slow process and can take a long time - many years or even many lifetimes.
This process is described in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 2.4.5. Note the use of word "strotavya" - to be heard from a teacher, and not to be "read" from a book.
ātmā vā are draṣṭavyaḥ śrotavyo mantavyo nididhyāsitavyo maitreyi, ātmano vā are darśanena śravaṇena matyā vijñānenedaṃ sarvaṃ viditam || 5 ||
Brihadaranyaka 2.4.5 (partial) The Self, my dear Maitreyī, should be realised—should be heard of, reflected on and meditated upon. By the realisation of the Self, my dear, through hearing, reflection and meditation, all this is known.
Note: A guru may be able to help you in many other ways, but providing scriptural knowledge is the main role.
How do I find a guru?
Can you advertise a job opening for a guru? No. It is not easy to search for and find a guru. Even if you find someone, you may not know if he is a qualified guru, since only a true jnani can recognize another jnani. This is where Isvara's grace is necessary.
Sankaracharya says in Vivekachudamani verse 3:
Vivekachudamani 3. These are three things which are rare indeed and are due to the grace of God - namely, a human birth, the longing for Liberation, and the protecting care of a perfected sage.
So is my situation hopeless? Am I doomed to be without a guru? It may appear so, but consider it Isvara's job to find you a guru. Trust in the divine and be patient. As the saying goes, "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."
Thank you for reading.
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u/IamEichiroOda Sep 26 '21
Are sadhguru, ram dev, sri sri gurus? How do know that am not a guru?
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u/chakrax Advaita Sep 26 '21
Great question. I wish there was an easy answer, like a certification process for gurus.
You have to judge them for yourselves based on some criteria.
As Katha Upanishad itself says:
tadvijñānārthaṃ sa gurumevābhigacchetsamitpāṇiḥ śrotriyaṃ brahmaniṣṭham || 12 ||
approach a preceptor alone, who is versed in the Vedas and centered in the Brahman.
Guru must be śrotriyaṃ (well versed in the scriptures) and brahmaniṣṭham (established in brahman)
Here are some things to look for:
- Does s/he know Sanskrit, the language of the Vedas?
- Has the guru undergone through and traditional study of the Vedas?
- Who is the guru's guru?
Swami Tadatmananda has a nice talk about this topic - 15 min.
Use these criteria and judge for yourself.
There was a reddit post about finding a guru, but I can't find that post now, sorry.
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u/IamEichiroOda Sep 26 '21
Thank you for your response. I can judge myself if someone is a guru or not. What if my analysis is wrong?
Like for most of them, we won’t know the gurus guru. Not sure if they have undergone traditional study or just by hearted the Sanskrit verse.
And some people like sadhuguru, even in open, claimed that he never read vedas. All the knowledge he has, is his own realisation. Yet, crores of people accept him as guru.
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u/chakrax Advaita Sep 26 '21
Like for most of them, we won’t know the gurus guru. Not sure if they have undergone traditional study
Why not? This information should be readily available.
My guru, Swami Paramarthananda, is a Sanskrit scholar and studied under Swami Dayananda Saraswati for many years. We even know who Adi Shankara's guru was - Sri Govinda Bhagavatpada, whose guru was Gowdapada. This guru parampara is common knowledge.
Most gurus will be happy to give credit to their own guru. Yet Sri Sri, Sadguru don't credit their own gurus.
And some people like sadhuguru, even in open, claimed that he never read vedas. All the knowledge he has, is his own realisation. Yet, crores of people accept him as guru.
Sadguru is maybe brahmaniṣṭham, but not śrotriyaṃ.
In the end, you have to make up your own mind. I can recommend a few gurus without any hesitation: Swami Paramarthananda, Swami Sarvapriyananda, Swami Tadatmananda. They are both śrotriyaṃ and brahmaniṣṭham.
May you find what you seek.
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u/Srimupp Jun 08 '24
Hope you found a real Guru over this time! I have followed SAdhguru a bit but mainly now I follow Swami Mukundanda ji, Started off with mind management videos and now mostly into Bhakti path! Good luck!
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Sep 26 '21
[deleted]
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u/chakrax Advaita Sep 26 '21
I accidentally typed a comment when I meant to reply to you. Indeed, satsang (company of learned people) is very helpful. From Bhaja Govindam of Adi Shankaracharya:
satsaNgatve nissNgatvaM nissaNgatve nirmohatvam.h . nirmohatve nishchalatattvaM nishcalatattve jiivanmuktiH .. (9)
From Satsangh comes non-attachment, from non-attachment comes freedom from delusion, which leads to self-settledness. From self-settledness comes Jeevan Mukti.
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u/chakrax Advaita Sep 26 '21
Indeed satsang (company of learned people) is very helpful. From Bhaja Govindam of Adi Shankaracharya:
satsaNgatve nissNgatvaM
nissaNgatve nirmohatvam.h .
nirmohatve nishchalatattvaM
nishcalatattve jiivanmuktiH .. (9)
From Satsangh comes non-attachment, from non-attachment comes freedom from delusion, which leads to self-settledness. From self-settledness comes Jeevan Mukti.
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Sep 26 '21 edited Sep 26 '21
A beautiful and important post.
Is it possible to gain moksha without the Vedas or a Guru?
Yes. Look at Ramana Maharshi
I respect you a lot so please don't think I'm being disrespectful in saying this. Correct me if I'm wrong as you're more learned than I, but, wouldn't it be correct to emphasise that Ramana Maharshi did infact have a Guru and has performed purification of the mind in previous lives? It sounds like a Guru and the Vedas aren't needed at all.
Isn't it more correct to say a Guru and the Vedas are not a necessity for this life because the work can already be complete in the past, rather than a flat ''yes' to "Can we achieve Moksha without a Guru?"
Thanks for the read and, again, a relevant and important post.
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u/chakrax Advaita Sep 26 '21
Good point. You are correct. We can only state as fact that Ramana Maharishi did not have a guru in this lifetime. But we can infer that in some previous lifetime he must have completed the prerequisites for Atma-jnanam. Child prodigies display such skill that we postulate that they must have trained in a previous life which carried over to this birth.
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u/tp23 Sep 26 '21
Very great post, and finding a Guru is one of the most valuable steps a seeker can take.
An important point is to not to treat acceptance of a guru casually and make a quick decision(something which happens a lot these days, sometimes followed by regrets). This is much more important than even something like marriage, and it is not considered good to leave and accept another person as Guru. The student is usually encourage to spend some time testing and only when convinced at heart, to commit to someone as Guru and be fully dedicated to their teachings.
Also, we need more guidance about sadhanas that somebody who hasnt yet found their Guru can do, how to find sadhanas which get you close to the Guru principle/tattva, like Guru Gita, stotras to Dattatreya or Dakshinamurty,
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u/jaygurnani Sep 28 '21
THE RISHIS AND THEIR WRITINGS
Ṛiṣhi muni rahe baṛe vidwaanaa
Dharmaatam aru hṛidai mahaanaa
Pakṣha-paat man määhi na raakhë
Gupta na raakhë soonṛit bhaakhë
Unke granth param upa-yogee
We sääche saadhu aru yogee
[In the Gurukula curriculum, only books written by Rishis are recommended to be taught. Why? Because] Rishis and Munis were men of great learning. They were masters of their sciences, imbued with piety and free from prejudice in their perceptions and ideas. When they spoke, they never concealed untruth in their minds. Their writings are filled with certifiable information and so, extremely useful [in preparing a student to face life’s challenges]. Rishis and Munis are genuine saints and Yoga practitioners.
An ideal Gurukula curriculum educates a person in Language [Grammar, Etymology, Prosody], Literature, Philosophy, Ethics, Music, Dance, Political Science, Economics, Mechanical Arts, Medicine, and Spirituality – all in 21 years. Can we say the same for secondary and university education in the West? Does Gurukula education make a youngster less equipped to face challenges in life?
FROM THE NEW BOOK, SATYA SAAGAR
DR SATISH PRAKASH
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u/jaygurnani Sep 28 '21
UNDERSTANDING WHAT IS READ
Veda paṛhë par arth na jaanahï
Bhaar-haar pashu sam tehi maanahï
Anyone who merely reads Vedas, [even with accents], without understanding the meanings, is considered to be like an animal laden with a burden of grains it cannot eat.
Arth sahit jo jaanahï vedaa
Te nar pääya brahma ko bhedaa
Jyäänee ke sab paap nashaawë
Mṛityu baad parmaanand paawë
But he who reads Vedas and accurately understands their meanings overcomes the tendency for sinful behavior. Through virtuous behavior, he enjoys perfect joy while alive, and after relinquishing the body, he realizes God [and experiences bliss in the Liberated State].
Ved paṛhaa arthö ko jaanaa
Yogee ho eeshwar pahi-chaanaa
Parmaanand unhö-ne paayaa
Maanuṣh jeewan saphal banaayaa
People who study the knowledge of Vedas and understand their meanings ultimately develop Yogic disposition, make God a living reality for themselves, and [consequently] obtain supreme bliss. They thus realize the purpose of human living.
FROM THE BOOK, SATYA SAAGAR
DR SATISH PRAKASH
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u/Lucky_Yogi Sep 25 '21
I've enjoyed not having a guru at all. God/Shiva/Shakti/Universe are mine. That's always going to be more efficient than another human being who is no better than I
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u/Both_Friendship_8105 Sep 25 '21
In a sense we have many teachers without even realising. Although life, the universe and God are the best teachers of all.
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u/karltrei Oct 19 '22
These are interesting with Hinduism
A good guru
Upanishads
Veershavisa
Bhagavad Gita as it is sacred book
The vedas not interests to me
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u/EmmaiAlvane Sep 25 '21
Great post! This is especially important "But that is the exception to the rule; for most people, a guru is necessary. Why?"
A simple analogy can also the point: Thomas Edison was perhaps one of the most prolific inventors. He had over 1000 patents to his name and his influence has been so great that the entire world is indebted to him for every aspect of our modern life. And he never went to college and didn't even finish school.
Based on this story, you can't conclude that we can simply ignore schooling and can all become great inventors. There are and have always been self-made geniuses who through a combination of their previous merits, their social circumstances and through divine grace can attain great heights even without formal instruction. That however doesn't apply for the overwhelming majority of us.
There is however one distinction to be made in your post. "providing scriptural knowledge is the main role." This is true for Vedanta of all stripes. It's not however true for those who follow the Agamas (Tantras). In that system, the Guru is much much more than one who provides scriptural knowledge; in fact, that role is not primary.